u/Automatic_Safety7029

The title is contradictory on purpose. I've been asking around and thinking and the answers I get for this dilemma are always varied. (I mean, of course they are, but still.) there's never anything actionable or concrete. You should never cold approach women but a lot of women don't mind it. Honestly, you just need to try your ass off. There is no right or wrong answer, and if you are a man that cannot find his way no one is gonna support you without you paying for help.

Even if it's awkward or if you sound dumb the only thing you can do is cold approach if there is no other option for you. She won't care anyways if you hit the nail on the head the right way. You can't win unless you were always going to from the start. Everything was never going to work or it was always going to work.

This is a mostly serious question. Most of the women I know talk about men like they are specific tools to be used for specific purposes. This guy is good for money, this one is good at sex, this one is romantic, etc.

With that being the case so often, is this why it's so hard for average or lame men? There doesn't seem to be any merit to picking a guy that isn't able to fulfill a missing category.

I think men who struggle with the bird dance of attracting women or just the social aspect of dating and dealing with women is mainly due to lack of experience. If the men in that position hypothetically had some mythical angelic girl come into his life for one year and they gave him a little bit of experience, he would even out to a well rounded individual that can navigate properly.

I believe for men romantic pursuit is a momentum based skill. You will only get experience if you have more of it. You have to also learn from those experiences but most men who struggle are crushed by their own realities by the time they hit their mid twenties.

Women don’t typically want to be the person that give men their first everything so they can fully develop, but the point of this hypothetical is to explore the idea. I believe if some hypothetical women came into a struggling man’s life he’d shape up pretty well. Most of those men are just idle machines that cling admittedly too hard to the idea of serving a partner.

I want to open up a debate I hear in comment chains and it fascinates me because I’ve experienced it myself in the past and each variation of it is jarring. When women deny certain sexual favors for their current partner, but will do it for a future or past partner. Let’s use head as the main example because it’s easy to keep track of just one favor. Here are the some scenarios and here’s my perspective on it.

An ex said that she hates giving head, though she has had great experiences and a great deal of fun giving head in the past she wouldn’t for me only vaginal or even anal sex. Her partner after us she had no problem giving head to isn’t that somewhat insulting? Or can anyone see why that could be interpreted as one?

Scenario 2 would most likely be making her current partner wait when she has sex faster with other men in her past. This one is also weird because it seems like what other men got early you suddenly have to wait for. A real scenario is I had a partner that spent years being some dirty fuckers “living fuck doll for years” (her own words not mine) from the start till the end. But for me she wanted to impose a six month rule. And it gave me pause. Why make me wait? I did the six months and when we started sleeping together I felt so empty… a man far more sinister than me had way more access to you and will probably experience the deepest form of kinky sex with her than you, current boyfriend ever will. Again, can anyone see how that is even somewhat insulting? You can’t be trusted? What exactly is it keeping you from actually giving the full range of sexual exploration that you clearly do and have and probably will in the future provide to others?

Overall it just feels off to me. If you won’t give one sexual favor to one partner but will to any other doesn’t that mean you just care for them less?

I don’t think the dating market is all that bad. What I think is happening is that everyone treats everyone with a certain level of apathy before you impress them enough into treating you with a deeper level of commitment. We all have horror stories of how awful both men and women can be. How they can bring you to the peak of what you thought love should be before crashing it all down.

I don’t think this is how everyone is though. Something within ourselves causes people to think they can get away with mistreating us. I think there are bad actors for both men and women, but mostly I think it’s just apathy. Nobody cares about someone they aren’t willing to invest in, so they treat you as if you are of little consequence.

Most of the time your feelings don’t carry much weight because they haven’t decided to emotionally invest yet.

To me, that’s a more convincing explanation than believing most people are secretly malicious. I think there are genuinely bad actors on both sides, but most disappointing dating experiences come from indifference rather than cruelty.

A lot of men specifically get criticized for their main goal in life being romantic pursuit. Me personally, all of my hobbies, goals, dreams and ambitions all are a means to the end of finding a romantic companion. Of course I’d never admit this in unlicensed only because people would rather not hear it, but there shouldn’t be anything wrong with it.

If your main motivation in life is to find a girlfriend and it’s the only *Real* goal you have pretending to believe anything else is delusional. If you want muscles for women, better that than bullshitting and saying it’s for something else and lowering your morale. That goes for money, skills, competency etc.

Honestly with the right mindset it’s a goal that is noble and helpful as long as you have your head on straight. The main issue people take is the mere mention that love is your main motivation. For some reason speaking on it is worse than the desire itself.

I only wanted to say that there’s no level of fuck up a women could be or do that would actually keep her down. Single mother? Someone will play stepdad. You might think he’s a corny ass dude but he will step to the plate. Want a boyfriend or boy toy? Go get a nerd and build a man outta him and he’ll most likely craft himself into the man you want.

I’m talking in extremes on purpose a tad bit, but it’s somewhat true or at least true enough to warrant a post. I’ve gone to school with girls as autistic as me go homeless and get bailed out to move across the country to live in the room of a boyfriend on discord. And I’ve always seen similar cases to that. Women live on recruit difficulty. Literally all you gotta do is don’t fuck up the easiest deal of all time and you’ll be set for life.

This is gonna be a hard pitch like all the others I make but there is a lot of discourse around who treats who worse. I think it’s honestly irrelevant to put it to gender. I believe that we just treat everyone that isn’t “the one” like shit until we bump into someone that makes us “shape up”

What I mean is the people that only want you for one thing be it sex or money don’t actually behave that way. They only do that because you aren’t the one to earn that good behavior from them.

That’s why I say there are no good/bad women or bad/good men. There are people who are into you and therefore willing to treat you right or they aren’t.

Someone will act like an absolute demon with you and then beg for mercy from their next partner like they didn’t step on your heart. Someone will claim to not be the clingy type but then do it for you because you amazed them. Every behavioral archetype is negotiable depending on what your presence and personality or looks or whatever metric of attractiveness you wanna use can pull out of someone.

Some women can claim to not care about sex then meet someone they carnally wanna fuck to death. A man can be afraid to spend money on a woman but meets the sweetheart of his dreams and wants to spend everything.

I’m using basic and very shallow examples but you can take this to pretty much any level you want and it still applies.

I see women making this claim the most. “He’s probably dangerous or crazy or bad personality” it seems like some of you really aren’t capable of believing regular people sometimes just can’t do it.

It could be that he’s corny and probably shaking in his boots as he shoots his shot. But that doesn’t make him a bad guy. It’s not indicative of dark traits.

Besides all the dark traits a woman can make ends up with women somehow anyways so whatever metric you are using clearly isn’t working with all the abuse in the market.

Randomly thought of this but have any women been around someone so damn charismatic that they go “Wait a minute, he's suspiciously good at charming people.” and start to look at him a bit different. He never stutters, never stumbles, never an imperfection to be seen and is always some how above any measure of screwing up. Is that not at all off putting?

I’m wondering this because it makes less and less sense to me because whenever I talk to women about it they want experienced men who have women and options. The problem I see is that it seems like the job metaphor men prattle about. “I need experience to get the job but there’s nowhere to get said experience either.”

That’s not the only thing though. Women tend to think they have to teach a guy how to be in a relationship. Unless the guy has zero social awareness I highly doubt he doesn’t understand how to be good company in the context of a relationship.

I’m trying to see how bad that really is because experience seems to only bring out trauma in everyone, men and women. I would like to discuss this so I can get a better picture of it.

This is something I’ve genuinely never understood.

One of the traits I’ve seen criticized for most in dating is being “too eager” or “too excited” about the prospect of having a loving relationship.

What confuses me is that when I look around, I see people tolerate traits that seem far worse. I’ve seen women stay with emotionally abusive partners, physically abusive partners, serial cheaters, drug dealers, gang members, and people with all kinds of obvious red flags.

So here’s my question:

Why does enthusiasm for a relationship sometimes seem less attractive than traits that are objectively harmful?

To be clear, I’m not saying women consciously prefer abusers. Most don’t. What I’m asking is what signals are being picked up in those situations.

What is it about a man being very eager for love or companionship that can come across as unattractive, while other men with far more serious flaws are still able to attract partners?

I feel like there’s something I’m missing, because on the surface it doesn’t make sense to me.

The reason for this debate topic is that usually women tend to jump on the train of thought that men mainly or only care about sex when in reality the men that think like that don’t even know what they are actually chasing. If sex fell into the lap of those men they’d quickly realize they chasing a feeling that’s “pretty good”. It won’t shatter all expectations and it won’t be an utter letdown unless it’s actually disastrous.

For the most part if you get rid of your sexual curiosity either through experience or some other kind of mind journey, you realize it’s definitely a non negotiable for most relationships, but also not something that can be used as a prize, reward, or ammunition in a debate as we commonly see.

I think a set of inexperienced men set this strange stereotype, but in all honesty anyone can end up there if said curiosity isn’t met. Women can too even though it’s much rarer.

The thing I find really weird is the people who consistently have sex know all this but still don’t acknowledge it. I think a lot of people misunderstand what many inexperienced men are actually chasing.

Women often say that men only care about sex. I don’t think that’s entirely true. I think many men believe they’re chasing sex because they haven’t experienced it enough to separate the physical act from everything they imagine comes with it.

That’s why I think a lot of debates about sex miss the mark. People are arguing about the act itself when many people are really talking about what the act represents to them.

When talking about dating I think people underestimate how many good as in competent and attractive and with integrity. A combination of those traits in any attractive man (even on the average level) is already going to be swept off the market. If you’re even showing a hint of capability women will pick you up and seek you out aggressively.

What I’m saying is there are no free attractive men. Any attractive man with the skill, finesse and charisma to pull you probably built those skills and has a main chick somewhere. Or is a serial dater and isn’t planning on keeping you. When a man either becomes attractive or always was he’s gonna either take his woman and leave the talk and the spaces where relationships form or play the field indefinitely.

Of course this isn’t law, but in my observations it tends to be this way. If anyone has the power to date a lot there’s gonna be a period of time where they flex that power in any way they choose.

I genuinely think women have a harder time on the dating market than men do. As a man I admit we have an incredibly hard first level of this shot where it's hard to get started but once you find your rythym you pretty much have it in the bag.

For women its easy on the front end and hard the rest of the way through. It hardly even matters when it comes to attractiveness. In fact, I think the prettiest women and most unattractive women have it the worst. Pretty women have to take the hit from all directions. Most of what they are told are lies maybe some guys are genuinely kind but I can only imagine how many “kind” men were wolves in sheep clothing. They've heard every trick every gesture and they can hardly tell what's real anymore. And this is almost across the board. (from what I have observed.)

Once again, I do think men have a hard level one but I do think it's easier to maintain a relationship as a man rather than getting one which is the real struggle most men talk about. Once a woman signs up for your program, you have to maintain that program. A lot of men get complacent and forget the little things and it adds up until she gets pissed and leaves. Once you master attraction which can only be done your way, no amount of advice will help you find your version of sexy. I know a guy who has nerdy rambles and that's how he got his girlfriend. It can be anything.

Overall I just think women have it harder, anyone can be a great guy or a pos and there's hardly ever a way to tell the difference between an attractive good guy or an attractive asshole.

Most of the time when talking about options women will say that most of them are shit. To be clear, I don't belief men or women truly think that every single person available for them to date is absolutely trash to the point where there is literally no options. However women tend to do this more.

The reason why I say it's larp, is because women can “pause the game” so to speak. Women abstaining from the game or coming back is like flipping a light switch. You could always just pick an average dude that means well if you actually decided, there's nothing stopping that from happening.

He's just not exciting, that doesn't mean he's trash. Some women say they're okay dying alone if he isn't the peak of her ideals, but this is also larp. Most of you will pick the boring but well meaning guy when the chips are down and the walls are closing in.

It's easy to say you can stand on that ideal when you are in your 20’s maybe even early thirties. But only a small amount of people will actually die on that hill. This goes for all people regardless of orientation, most people unless they are literally and truly wired different would prefer a relationship and that's okay, just don't lie about it.

The men who struggle with lack of options means there is not a single person he can realistically and consistently talk to with romantic intent and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Not even an odd Instagram text or matches on an app truly nothing. No the ugly girl don't want him either.

I've literally never seen a girl, 5.5/10 in looks that couldn't land some manner of man. I'm not talking about extreme cases either like abusers or desperate men looking for a living fuck doll. Or a lazy piece of shit that lacks any and all ambition. I mean a man, just a man that wants love as well.

On that note I've seen women of those types find relationships plenty. So while I believe they do suffer from a different type of loneliness, it's mostly larp because you can join a community and be loved easily, you can find a boyfriend at the damn grocery store if you really wanted to.

Like I said this point can apply to men as well, it just isn't the topic in this instance and doesn't happen as much.

This is something I think is kinda brutal and sad about the fact that men have to approach. I think most of us understand that women hate it but I’m hoping they do realize that we as men have to do it. I mean the alternative is a good chunk of all men aren’t making it through pure attraction without consciously making a move.

Some men and I’d say even most only meet about one girl that would date them briefly every 5-7 years if they don’t actively pursue. I know there are some genuine creeps that don’t take initial rejection as an answer but there’s gotta be a better way for everyone to navigate.

In my experience, women tend to have very little to zero intention when moving in the dating market. Most tend to go about their days with zero planning or reading situations beyond level 1. I think this is disadvantageous and causes more harm for them than good.

Most women I deal with and even some women in my family historically and even most I meet in passing seem to be of the belief that you can “vibe” everything out. I’m making a case that there is hardly ever such thing as that.

An example that I’ve personally seen in many different ways is when a classmate of mine said she’d never date anyone from the school we were at and ended up dating a guy at our school. Weak example but it’s very telling that if she really had strong intent not to do that she wouldn’t have fallen in love and ended up in terrible drama with that guy.

Another example I have witnessed is when partying or going out, women tend to believe that’s all they’re out there to do and end up cheating because the vibes were just right. You didn’t think going out could lead to that or hanging out with that guy could trigger anything? It’s strange.

The green flag and red flag system for example is pointless. The way most women call these out seems to allow for the most efficient predatory men to simply hide their flaws and that will give them an easy in to your life. If a man can and is good at hiding his red flags, does that mean his green flags are all the more appealing?

Equally if a man has obvious red flags does that mean there’s no good to be found? I’m usually more trusting of someone with visible flaws over someone that appears to be flawless only to find out that was their master plan all along.

The current system definitely stops the extreme cases of weirdos from getting into a relationship, but what about people that just learn the rules and the system and play into them well enough? I think that’s a pretty dangerous flaw in the system that’s left unchecked.

I haven’t heard this one used much as of late, but I’ll mention the 90 day rule for intimacy. You know some guys will definitely be tripped up by this but what about the ones that simply wait it out and still treat you like shit after? You do realize they can just do that right? I’ve heard stories of men waiting up to 5 years sleeping with other women and having flings while he waited for her to be comfortable and still pumped and dumped her.

My main point is when you make a study guide for your test people will just study to pass regardless if they are worthy or not and everyone should be careful. The reason I mainly mention women is because I feel that they’re more at risk in the discernment department than men are and have to deal with more bs.

I think if you have been rejected most of your life as a man or a woman and have a sudden glow up, it’s only natural to start being as picky as possible. When men do what it takes to become attractive as a man they usually take the ball and run with it often leading to more problems in the market. I feel like the only other option is taking who you attract and quietly leaving the dating market. Only some of the men who find their way do this.

I also think this happens to women who have glow ups as well. They use to be unattractive for whatever reason and once they grow beyond that they tend to not want anyone.

I think it’s fair. Where was the attention before I was pretty? Why is it that my interests are now interesting but they weren’t before? I didn’t change, my attractiveness level changed. I think it’s fair that some men run rampant on the market because it’s so easy to pick a well meaning but dorkish guy if you really wanna avoid this issue.