u/ComposerWaehnen

I had a revelation today!

Mahler is its own genre within Western art music.

Mahler often is the gate through which people walk into the realm of classical music. Quite often they find out that nothing is quite as big, hedonistic, and in a Wagnerian and cinematic way as overwhelming as Mahler. This results in Mahler fans requiring from everyone else to praise Gustav as the Number One.

Whereas people coming from Classical Music easily see that evaluated through the traditional musical values, Mahler is rather mediocre in multiple musical parametres. Nevertheless, if this is spoken out loud, it creates an intense conflict and provokes aggression.

Within classical music nobody is allowed to question the number one position of Gustav Mahler which to many of us is ridiculous. We are demanded to praise the new clothes of the emperor. ;)

I have come to the conclusion that both parties have a point.

Mahler’s aesthetics are so unique that in fact he has created his own genre. Within the values of that genre he is magnificent.

But in the context of Classical Music, there are other values where Mahler does not shine. Those values cannot be forgotten, ignored and neglected just because we are living in the times of The Mahler Hype.

So my suggestion is to talk about Mahler and Mahler fans in a genre of their own, related to but separate from
the other classical music. Both are part of the Western Art Music.

What do you say?

If Mahler had been as great in creating beautiful melodies, enchanting harmonies, stimulating rhythms and impactful forms as Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, Tchaikovsky and Sibelius were — do you think he would have chosen to deploy the constant irony and the circulation of banal and repetitive, homogenous material from work to work to such an extent?

This is an utterly serious question, not a provocation. (I will appreciate and contemplate every genuine answer and ignore all possible raging.)

I will briefly elaborate a bit more on my point.

Mahler reuses and recycles the same gestures and types of music from one symphony to another.

- The dotted ”tat-ta-taa” gesture mostly in brass is everywhere. I have found it as the main rhythmic gesture in all symphonies other than the 3rd and the 4th.

- The ironic brass trills are everywhere.

- The grotesque dances are everywhere — to the extent that certain sections are mutually interchangeable between the ironic dance sections of the 3rd, 6th, 7th and the 9th.

- The marches are of course everywhere.

- The finale of the 9th is a remake of the finale of the 3rd.

- I struggle to find any inventive, original or stimulating rhythms anywhere.

- Great melodies (or rather, highly inspired basic material in general) are just not there, rather just fragments.

I could go on forever. Yet when I complain about the music seeming to lack proper musical invention, I get the answer: ”It was on purpose, he was ironic, he was consciously making narratives through the banal”.

I strongly sense excuses there. Yes, I call them ”Mahler excuses”. I could live with all the excuses if they truly applied only to a couple of works. Yes, we do need "conceptual art" also in music. What is too much for me is that these excuses are applied as a "free ticket" to Mahler´s whole career and considered valid all over and over again -- which means that the same quality of basic material and renewal of artistic ethos and technique is not required from this one composer the way it is from other composers. In stead, in the middle of the Mahler Hype, we are supposed to praise him as the greatest musical genius of all time, unconditionally.

My answer to my own question is: Yes, the constant irony and narrative recycling is a way of masking certain compositional incompetence, both for the composer himself and for those who have surrendered unconditionally to the Hype. Our world loves superlatives and stories of Great Heroes. But in this particular case, one cannot completely evade the idea of "The Emperor without clothes".

I just finished the 2nd book, Helium Sea. It was a thrill! I absolutely loved the universe, the characters and the plot.

But I was very disappointed in these aspects:

• My favourite characters, the 3 Queens in exile were disposed of with a flick of a wrist.
• The collapse of Khepri´s grand game was never viewed from the point of view of her dominion.
• Lilliana and Gyvoy were just wiped out.
• The Mara Yama were not really shown or explained, just wiped out.
• Helena didn´t get to return in any form. (OK, this is just what I would have preferred).
• Thyra didn´t have to answer for his crimes, everyone just accepted her.
• The Elohim never showed themselves. (OK, this is just what I would have preferred).

All of these elements point towards a rushed ending or an ending (or a setting) that was agreed upon beforehand.

Sibelius’ 6th Symphony performed by Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra is one of my dearest recordings, at the very top with a few others.

The performance — with the moderate tempos also in the middle movements which shine gloriously— is so convincing that I don’t find any other performance as satisfying.

Also, no other music on planet earth is more soothing and relaxing to me! (That is to say, together with some Bach, Mozart and Haydn and chamber and piano music movements by Beethoven and Brahms. To make it seven, I also have to mention the tranquil Chopin.)

It takes a genius to create such exquisite music yet make it subtle, profound and ground-shaking at the same time. Oh, it isn’t just modal beauty for the cerebral dimensions of our brain — the glorious dissonances are there for the visceral pleasure.

Have you heard the recording? What do you think?

I find this symphonic poem absolutely amazing. When I was younger I would never have thought to one day like it more than for example Pohjola´s Daughter, one of my all-time favourites... But nowadays the sheer emotional, expressive and dramatic power of En Saga places it very high on my list of greatest musical achievements of the human kind. Nobody else has made the orchestra sound like this.

Sibelius himself said: "En Saga is the expression of a state of mind. I had undergone a number of painful experiences at the time, and in no other work have I revealed myself so completely. It is for this reason that I find all literary explanations quite alien."

The only work remotely related in its dark atmosphere and free orchestral expression that comes to mind would be the Manfred Symphony by Tchaikovsky.

What are your favourite recordings? Berglund/Bournemouth and Furtwängler for me!

Which two do you think are at the opposite ends of a spectrum?

For me, it must be Joseph Haydn and Gustav Mahler! Both were great but so very different.

Haydn was joyful, wrote enjoyable music for others and his level of musical invention and innovation was unbelievable.

Mahler was very dark and mournful, focused mostly on himself and his own misfortunes, and recycled the same symbolic ideas and frameworks and templates from one work to the next.

So for me, completely different mindsets!

I admit I did not expect much from Rachmaninoff’s 2nd Symphony. I thought it would be the usual mediocre late romantic piece…

But was I surprised! I still am. In my books this one rises to the same tier as Bruckner’s 4th and 7th.

Any similar experiences? When your own prejudices have been swiftly thrown out the window?

Hi, everyone! I am new to this place and plan on getting more active and even analytical on Reddit. ;) There is one thing I want to discuss with you first, though.

I do not intuitively understand the upvote and downvote system. My assumption is that if certain music is being analyzed and there is some critique involved, it will automatically result in people downvoting especially if the critique is perceived to be "against" the favourites of the readers.

Then again I don´t believe Reddit would be so popular if it were nothing but a praising community, people fishing for upvotes through unconditional superlatives.

So what are the mechanics truly and realistically? How do you perceive the upvoting and downvoting and what would be your advice for someone who tends to criticize certain aspects of even my greatest favourites like Beethoven? ;)