u/Dear-Recording8011

Battle of the Summoners. Settling once and for all which summoner is better: Necro or Warlock

Battle of the Summoners. Settling once and for all which summoner is better: Necro or Warlock

I've read it quite a bit lately, "Why play Necro anymore when we now have the Warlock!?" "Warlock's a better summoner than even the dude with a SUMMON skill tree!" I've been doing a lot of playthroughs recently, and I planned to go Abyss in Hell, but I'd rather play it after getting reworked. So why not play both summoner builds and see how much better one feels over the other?

I did both Hell playthroughs of these builds back to back. Single player self found gear--so no Sunders or other OP charms, no Spirit shields. I built the Demon Warlock as if the new patch already kicked in. So that means I maxed Bind Demon instead of just 1 point, and I didn't want to spam Lethargy for the extra damage. I opted to use mostly Rancor instead, and it was surprisingly great.

Fishymancer

https://preview.redd.it/b931labd2l1h1.jpg?width=1568&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07a7650f2026c0eb5355bc880fe55fa343cb6d92

Goatmancer

https://preview.redd.it/h9uet2923l1h1.jpg?width=1558&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c56cb2c10df64ab074b4ffb7cdd1e1508d7f4b8c

So how'd it go? Who was more OP? Who was more fun? I came up with some very objective and strict comparisons (kidding), then gave the better man a point.

Here you go:

Demons vs Skeletons
Don't get me wrong, I love the skeleton army that's so iconic to the Necro and the game, but simply not needing corpses for demons is kind of nice.

Then you even have the variance of the demons. Which combo do I want between Goats and Defilers? Maybe Tainted if you're doing more Blood Boil stuff.

Necro loses this one simply for the fact that the mages are so, so bad. So all the Necro's left with is his crew of undead skellies farmed out of the Blood Moor with every new game.

Point: Warlock

Psychic Ward vs Bone Armor
While Psychic Ward is better up front with just 1 point, Bone Armor's synergies are better and actually useful.

Point: Necro

Sigil:Rancor vs Revive
Rancor was pretty nice crowd control and is a lot less clunky than Revive. But Revive is just so damn rad. The times Necro feels busted and has the power coursing through his veins are the moments of walking around with an army of Udars, Megademons, and Gloams telling everyone to shut up. And Revive is great for Bosses where Rancor is pretty useless.

Point: Necro

Engorge vs Life Tap
Engorge just insta-works AND buffs your boys for a short period. But Life Tap simply keeping your merc alive is quite good… got to give it to Necro I think. It would be a tie maybe except you do need a corpse for Engorge.

Point: Necro

Bind Demon vs Iron Golem
I love Iron Golem. It's one of the most interesting skills in the game with a lot of freedom and that feeling of extra weight when losing the Golem--which I appreciate. But Bind Demon is just the best skill in the game right? The weight of the bound demon is still there sure, but not as heavy as with Iron Golem (pun intended). I'd much rather play pokemon again than permanently lose an expensive item.

Point: Warlock

Blade Warp and Death Mark vs ... nothing.
Yup...gotta get that telestaff if you're Necro.
In all fairness, while the Necro has no way to command armies, the undead army do just swarm everything with decent enough AI.

Point: Warlock

Consume vs ... nothing!
Just more bells and whistles for the Warlock

Point: Warlock

Authority vs Bone (+2 to skills armor)
Not 1, but 2 Um! The extra stats on Bone are better than Authority. I'll give it that. But 2 Um! Compared to Authority that can be made from NM countess runs. Come on...

Point: Warlock

Sigil:Death vs Amplify Damage
Death has narrow uses while Amp Damage is pretty much all your using for the majority of your interactions. And honestly, Death didn't even feel all the great in a summon style shell. Lethargy for bosses and Rancor for mobs was my go to.

Amp Damage also combos with Corpse Explosion. Which speaking of…

Point: Necro

Corpse Explosion vs Blood Boil
Corpse Explosion. And it's not even close.

Point: Necro

Blood Boil will be getting some buffs with the new patch, and I did a dedicated build when it was only the 4 yards. I appreciated that it was basically CE with a unique spin using different teleport style skills. I was a little against the devs opening up the range of Blood Boil because then it's stepping on CE's toes and I'd like them to feel different. I still think 7 yards is too much, but whatever. It's a game, and about having fun which I'm sure it will be.

That's all the big stuff that I can think of between the two builds: Warlock 5, and Necro 5
So I'd call that a tie....where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

---

There's probably more cases to make:
Necro still has better survivability and clear speed with CE.
Warlock has better mobility.
They both kill bosses at a reasonable speed, but Necro needs good revives while Warlock can reliably just cast goats with crushing blow.
Warlock summoner was a lot more active than the Necro if you enjoy pressing buttons.
Necro not being able to bind curses to the left click does suck hard.
Necro army benefits more from Auras than Warlock's tiny posse.
Necro is a better team player.
Warlock talks more smack than the Necro…

But specific comparisons aside, they were both incredibly fun. Neither felt glaringly more over powered than the other. Hell playthrough was a breeze for both. But most importantly, they had enough differences to where there's still reasons to choose one over the other for power reasons or different play patterns. So I'd call that pretty balanced and a win for the players who enjoy summon builds.

Anyway, love to hear other peoples thoughts and these builds. What changes you're hoping for in the future. For either build. Are there any more unique styles anyone has stumbled upon for summoners? I'd love to try it out if you mention it.

-Cheers

Edit: As a lover of the Summon Druid myself, I appreciate the shout from the handful of other Zoo lovers too. I swear I didn't forget about our red-headed stepchild of the cast.

reddit.com
u/Dear-Recording8011 — 6 days ago

Finished Hell with Rabies. Unique play pattern with some interesting ways to build it. Some of my thoughts on the skill itself.

Started on my Hell playthroughs with different builds, just wanted to set this one aside because I had a lot to say on it. I'm hoping to give insights to players that haven't tried it before, and hope to hear from those who've had more experience with it (or any poison builds really).

---

Rabies is a feast or famine kind of style (pun intended)--when it works, it feels like the best skill in the game. When it's slightly off, it feels like you flushed 40 skill points down the toilet and pray your bunk Fury build takes over. And when playing through, it happens quite often. Act1 is rough because you just don't have enough density or too many environmental obstacles. Act2 and Act4 are rough due to immunities, and Act5 is a crap shoot. Oddly, Chaos Sanctuary, Worldstone Keep and Chamber (and Cows!) were surprisingly easy using Rabies--and that's not nothing. Credit where credit is due.

Was it fun? The fact that the build felt very unique for a "melee" build... Yeah! It was interesting that you play melee like a caster where you tag once and run away. Let mobs chase you and infect more enemies--No other build feels like this in the game, and it was so satisfying to see a whole mob just flair up and eventually drop dead--when it worked of course. More often than not though, I'm re-applying the rabies once or twice while standing my ground using summons and Feral Rage.

Specs after beating Baal (Lvl 79)
20 Rabies
20 Poison Creeper
16 Wearwolf
11 Oak Sage
10 Lycanthropy
8 Fury
1 Feral Rage
1 Raven
1 Spirit Wold
1 Dire Wolf
1 Grizzly

Gear was nothing great (except the Plague Bearer which I was over the moon when I found it in NM)

Shield-Splendor
Gloves- Sigon's Gauntlests
Belt-Sigons's Belt
Boots - Horazon's Legacy dropped sometime pretty late in the playthrough
Rings- rare rings with attack rating, life and mana leech
Amulet - +1 to Druid skills rare ammy
Helm - +2 to druid skills rare helm
Armor - I found a Mal rune so I made Rain
Main Hand - Pleague Bearer with Shael Rune
Weapon Swap - Mania (Feral Ax) for the Burst of Speed and when I'm using Fury

Merc: Act5 Frenzy using Lawbringer and Cresent Moon.

Played on P3 until Act5 where I played mostly on P1. Chamber I bumped it back up to P3.

Pros:

  • When it's good, it's great. And it's great in some of the hardest and best farming spots in the game. Especially Shenk and Cows.
  • It's a small investment of 40 points. So there's MANY ways to play the build depending on how you like to play, what gear you have, or what time you're willing to spend on more levels.
  • It's very unique--no other build in the game plays like this and it's a bit of an oddball. A melee build that hits and runs? Sorry, but Hammers and Singer are 100% caster builds in my eyes. Rabies is the real hybrid melee/caster as you have to interact with the mobs, and even after you get a bite, the next interactions aren't as deterministic as just spamming your main skill again.

Cons:

  • Off the bat--where this build works is very narrow. You need: 1)non-poison immune enemies 2)dense mobs 3)areas without environmental obstacles.
  • Damage is quite slow. It will get there and is the only poison damage that kills...but you have to be patient. Or swap to other forms of damage in Fury, Fire Claws, Elemental Skills, or Summons.
  • I honestly don't think I could function without my merc. He held his own and almost never died. But when he did, my survivability and damage went out the window quick.
  • The contagion timer isn't long enough--hence the skill is fighting itself on how it works. This is why the skill isn't a clear and easy fix as "shorten the time on the poison damage over time." From my experience, I often never had the time to kite enemies to new ones spreading the contagion. Or ideally I apply Rabies once, then switch to some other form of damage like Fury, but the timer wears off before I kill most of the mob. So now I'm running around trying to get more bites in.

---

My opinionated suggestions on how to fix the skill?

The build could use some sort of poison mastery--not in the sense of the Sorceress who has an actual mastery skill. And if anyone should get a poison mastery skill it should be the Necro!

But Rabies is a hard skill to fix. It doesn't do enough damage...it's poison timer isn't long enough...this is why item's like Death's Web are the best in slot, " -*% Enemy Poison Resistance". That stat is so important for this build! What it does: Increase the poison damage AND increase the poison length timer, BUT calculates the damage over time BEFORE adding in the extra time. I'm just thinking how the devs are being more creative using hard points in skills, why not say Poison Creeper with hard points 16-20 get "-1% Enemy Poison Resistance". Max of 5%. Same as a Facet. It also helps Poison Creeper falling off hard after normal difficulty. Maybe do the same thing to Rabies if the build is still lacking. Just an untested idea at the moment.

Anyway, just like every other build I've played in D2R--super fun time and wouldn't take it back. The overall sell to this build is that it is very unique if you want something fresh. Is it good?...ehhh, It has moments in some of the harder parts of the game where it really shines. But it's funny that in some of the easier parts of the game it's like I can't wipe my own butt...and I had a Plague Bearer!!

Love to hear other experiences with this build, class, or other poison builds. Any ways you think the shapeshifters or poison builds could use some love in D2R?

-Cheers

u/Dear-Recording8011 — 10 days ago
▲ 18 r/diablo2

Finished Hell with Rabies. Unique play pattern with some interesting ways to build it. Some of my thoughts on the skill itself.

Started on my Hell playthroughs with different builds, just wanted to set this one aside because I had a lot to say on it. I'm hoping to give insights to players that haven't tried it before, and hope to hear from those who've had more experience with it (or any poison builds really).

---

Rabies is a feast or famine kind of style (pun intended)--when it works, it feels like the best skill in the game. When it's slightly off, it feels like you flushed 40 skill points down the toilet and pray your bunk Fury build takes over. And when playing through, it happens quite often. Act1 is rough because you just don't have enough density or too many environmental obstacles. Act2 and Act4 are rough due to immunities, and Act5 is a crap shoot. Oddly, Chaos Sanctuary, Worldstone Keep and Chamber (and Cows!) were surprisingly easy using Rabies--and that's not nothing. Credit where credit is due.

Was it fun? The fact that the build felt very unique for a "melee" build... Yeah! It was interesting that you play melee like a caster where you tag once and run away. Let mobs chase you and infect more enemies--No other build feels like this in the game, and it was so satisfying to see a whole mob just flair up and eventually drop dead--when it worked of course. More often than not though, I'm re-applying the rabies once or twice while standing my ground using summons and Feral Rage.

Specs after beating Baal (Lvl 79)
20 Rabies
20 Poison Creeper
16 Wearwolf
11 Oak Sage
10 Lycanthropy
8 Fury
1 Feral Rage
1 Raven
1 Spirit Wold
1 Dire Wolf
1 Grizzly

Gear was nothing great (except the Plague Bearer which I was over the moon when I found it in NM)

Shield-Splendor
Gloves- Sigon's Gauntlests
Belt-Sigons's Belt
Boots - Horazon's Legacy dropped sometime pretty late in the playthrough
Rings- rare rings with attack rating, life and mana leech
Amulet - +1 to Druid skills rare ammy
Helm - +2 to druid skills rare helm
Armor - I found a Mal rune so I made Rain
Main Hand - Pleague Bearer with Shael Rune
Weapon Swap - Mania (Feral Ax) for the Burst of Speed and when I'm using Fury

Merc: Act5 Frenzy using Lawbringer and Cresent Moon.

Played on P3 until Act5 where I played mostly on P1. Chamber I bumped it back up to P3.

Pros:

  • When it's good, it's great. And it's great in some of the hardest and best farming spots in the game. Especially Shenk and Cows.
  • It's a small investment of 40 points. So there's MANY ways to play the build depending on how you like to play, what gear you have, or what time you're willing to spend on more levels.
  • It's very unique--no other build in the game plays like this and it's a bit of an oddball. A melee build that hits and runs? Sorry, but Hammers and Singer are 100% caster builds in my eyes. Rabies is the real hybrid melee/caster as you have to interact with the mobs, and even after you get a bite, the next interactions aren't as deterministic as just spamming your main skill again.

Cons:

  • Off the bat--where this build works is very narrow. You need: 1)non-poison immune enemies 2)dense mobs 3)areas without environmental obstacles.
  • Damage is quite slow. It will get there and is the only poison damage that kills...but you have to be patient. Or swap to other forms of damage in Fury, Fire Claws, Elemental Skills, or Summons.
  • I honestly don't think I could function without my merc. He held his own and almost never died. But when he did, my survivability and damage went out the window quick.
  • The contagion timer isn't long enough--hence the skill is fighting itself on how it works. This is why the skill isn't a clear and easy fix as "shorten the time on the poison damage over time." From my experience, I often never had the time to kite enemies to new ones spreading the contagion. Or ideally I apply Rabies once, then switch to some other form of damage like Fury, but the timer wears off before I kill most of the mob. So now I'm running around trying to get more bites in.

---

My opinionated suggestions on how to fix the skill?

The build could use some sort of poison mastery--not in the sense of the Sorceress who has an actual mastery skill. And if anyone should get a poison mastery skill it should be the Necro!

But Rabies is a hard skill to fix. It doesn't do enough damage...it's poison timer isn't long enough...this is why item's like Death's Web are the best in slot, " -*% Enemy Poison Resistance". That stat is so important for this build! What it does: Increase the poison damage AND increase the poison length timer, BUT calculates the damage over time BEFORE adding in the extra time. I'm just thinking how the devs are being more creative using hard points in skills, why not say Poison Creeper with hard points 16-20 get "-1% Enemy Poison Resistance". Max of 5%. Same as a Facet. It also helps Poison Creeper falling off hard after normal difficulty. Maybe do the same thing to Rabies if the build is still lacking. Just an untested idea at the moment.

Anyway, just like every other build I've played in D2R--super fun time and wouldn't take it back. The overall sell to this build is that it is very unique if you want something fresh. Is it good?...ehhh, It has moments in some of the harder parts of the game where it really shines. But it's funny that in some of the easier parts of the game it's like I can't wipe my own butt...and I had a Plague Bearer!!

Love to hear other experiences with this build, class, or other poison builds. Any ways you think the shapeshifters or poison builds could use some love in D2R?

-Cheers

u/Dear-Recording8011 — 10 days ago