u/Desperate_Cancel_592

Am I wrong or do the majority of NBA fans severely underrate the impact of the all time great big men/front court players who are DPOY level defenders but aren’t great scorers? Draymond , Ben Wallace, Mutombo , Rodman , Tyson Chandler , Rudy Gobert , and most of all the goat Bill Russell .

Defense looks easier than offense to people because you don’t need skills with the actual basketball ,

but in the NBA today there are WAY MORE PLAYERS who could average 20-25ppg (given the minutes and shot attempts) than there are guys who can impact a game as much as a DPOY level player like Gobert can .

That being said I have some very controversial takes

Bill Russell over Wilt and Kareem peak and career

Duncan over Shaq and Kobe peak and career.

Draymond Green over Kevin Love peak and career .

And last and most controversially

Kevin Durant is objectively the greatest scoring small forward of all time , 4x scoring titles 2014 MVP

Steph Curry is arguably the most impactful offensive player of all time up to that point in history .

Draymond Green was a more impactful basketball player than Kevin Love ever was .

Klay Thompson is the greatest 3rd scoring option of all to time because he doesn’t need to dribble to score fits in perfectly anywhere 3 and D

Andre Iguodala was a former allstar best player on playoff teams in Philly and Denver, another all time great defender .

Steph Curry is the 2nd greatest player of the 2010s to LeBron .
LeBron had to face him 4x on super teams .

If Jordan after his first 3 peat didn’t retire

Here’s the next 2 years

1994 Bulls vs Rockets - Rockets win
1995 Bulls vs Rockets -Rockets win

And here’s what would happen if Hakeem was on a team as stacked as the 2017 Warriors

1996 Bulls vs Rockets Rockets win
1997 Bulls vs Rockets Rockets win

LeBron with Jordan’s finals schedule 2015-2018 was

Suns, Sonics , Jazz , Jazz

He’d go 4-0

So i say switch places difficulty Jordan would be 3-4 in Finals

LeBron would be 6-2

And all of that means nothing but I had a couple edibles and am totally talking out my ass right now but it low key makes sense to me . I think I understand NBA history now .

Which of these arguments seems craziest to you and which seems most reasonable?

04 LeBron not in draft
05 Freshman year of College
06 Sophomore in College
07 Junior in College

3x Player of the Year , 2-3 X NCAA Champion

2007 NBA Draft let’s say Greg Oden doesn’t exist and Lebron goes # 1 to Trail Blazers. Durant #2 Sonics

Blazers big 3 for the 2007-08 season is

Rookie LeBron age 21-22 , Brandon Roy , Lamarcus Aldridge is Portland’s big 3

Let’s say LeBron spends 7 years in Portland like he did Cleveland , their big 3 stays together and Brandon Roy never gets injured.

2008-2014 is 7 seasons,

I say LeBron gets 3 championships in 7 years at least with Roy and Aldridge.

Goes to Cleveland in 2015 wins in 16

Warriors still win in 2017-18

LeBron goes to LA and wins in 2020.

From age 21/22 rookie year age to age 35 in 2020

LeBron has at least between 4-6 championships in 14 seasons , 2008-2020

Jordan has 6 championships in 13 seasons in 14 years
1985-1998 with the 3 years of college age 21-35

So LeBron vs Jordan debate is very similar except.

LeBron’s 2-3 championships with Portland
And still gets the 1 in LA and 1 in Cleveland
But he’s 2-0 or 3-0 in Finals in Portland because without LeBron in the East the Finals would be cake walks .
Still 1-3 vs Warriors if that goes the same
1-0 in LA

Either 4-3 or 5-3 in Finals.

In the year 2000 Grant Hill averaged 25.8 ppg a career high
He was 1x 1st Team All NBA 4x 2nd Team between (1996-2000). He and Kobe were the 2 most talented players future of the league after Jordan .

In 2001 a Grant Hill was essentially traded to Orlando for Ben Wallace.

Also that summer Tim Duncan was on the verge of signing with Orlando but changed his mind last minute

That summer the Magic also got Tracy McGrady who when on to be a 2x scoring champion and 2x 1st Team All NBA
In 03 and 04

They also had a rookie Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw

So if Tim Duncan signs , and Grant Hill never gets hurt

San Antonio dynasty presumably doesn’t exist how many championships are they winning .

2001 East Finals 2001 NBA Finals
Magic vs 76ers. Shaq /Kobe. Vs Duncan/T Mac/Hill

2002 East Finals 2002 NBA Finals
Magic vs Nets Shaq/Kobe vs Duncan/T-Mac/Hill

2003 East Finals 2003 NBA Finals
Magic vs Nets. Mavericks vs Magic (no Spurs)

2004 East Finals. 2004 NBA Finals
Magic vs Pistons Lakers vs Pistons same result

2005 East Finals 2005 NBA Finals
Magic vs Pistons Suns vs Magic (no Spurs)

2006 East Finals 2006 NBA Finals
Magic vs Heat Heat vs Mavericks same result

2007 East Finals. 2007 NBA Finals
Magic vs Cavaliers Suns vs Magic (no Spurs)

2008 East Finals 2008 NBA Finals
Magic vs Celtics Celtics vs Lakers same result

Assuming all else stays the same meaning Tracy McGrady started declining with injury after 2008

Grant Hill has a prime just as long as Jordan’s to age 35 in 2008

And Duncan’s longevity is the same

I think the Duncan /T Mac/ Hill

Split in the Finals 01 and 02 vs Kobe and Shaq 1-1 in Finals

2003 they easily win vs 2003 West runner up Mavericks
2-1 in Finals

2004-2005. Pistons and Magic go 1-1
Magic over Suns 2005
3-1 in Finals

2006 I’ll say Wade and Shaq still win

2007 Magic win vs the Suns again
4-1 in Finals

Then in 2008 the team starts aging and falling apart and they win no more championships .

But are 4-1 in Finals 2001-2007 , 4 in 7 seasons.

In 1998 Glen Rice was a 3x consecutive allstar 1996-1998 and back to back All NBA selections in 97 and 98

In 1999 he joined the Lakers and didn’t make Allstar because he missed most of the season , got less shot attempts and there was no Allstar game because of the lockout .

In the 2000 Finals Lakers basically had 3 Allstars , Shaq , Kobe , Rice , plus very solid depth with Ron Harper , Derek Fisher at point , AC Green and Robert Horry at power forward

In the Finals Kobe was in his 4th season and averaged 15 pts 4 reb 4 ast on 36% by no means a superstar performance but his team still won because they were stacked around him .

The idea that Kobe in his 4th year would’ve won a championship at that age if he was playing the Spurs in the finals like LeBron in 2007 in his 4th year is ludicrous when all of the defensive attention was on him, Drew Gooden his 2nd leading scorer 12ppg in that series . Kobe had Shaq averaging 38 ppg and Glen Rice 11ppg over 60% from 3.
Switch places, LeBron’s easily winning with that squad

But what about 2011 Finals???

How do you lose with that stacked of a team ?

LeBron was in his 8th season.

In 2004 Kobe in his 8th season and Shaq were BY FAR the 2 best players on the court , considered heavy favorites vs Detroit whose best player was Chauncey Billups but they got crushed 4-1.

And you’ll say but Kobe and Shaq were beefing is a valid excuse (even though they ran through the West and their relationship wasn’t a problem then )

Did LeBron play poorly in the 2011 Finals yes but the reason people give Kobe or Jordan excuses for any time they played bad or lost is because they hate LeBron with a passion.

For LeBrons entire life, 7 years in Cleveland he was used to having the ball all the time .

In the 2011 Finals Heat came into the series with the strategy of running the offense through Wade , and it was working , up 2-1.

If you watch Team USA the last 20 years you’d know despite having 12 Allstars on the roster and the best opponents having 1 or 2 at best they can struggle or even lose when the competition is better . WHY ?

Because there’s only 1 ball , players don’t become Allstars for what they can do without the ball necessarily , so when they’re a 3rd option or worse on a superteam their value isn’t actually Allstar level getting that many less shot attempts, that talent gap is neutralized because the 3rd, 4th options on the other team are suited for their roles.

Was LeBrons lack of aggressiveness/effectiveness the key reason Miami lost ? Yes

But to expect someone know how to play as a 2nd option when his entire life he’s been by far #1 is just ignorant.

You say Wade carried LeBron as if Shaq averaging 38 and 16 with Kobe averaging 15 on 36% wasn’t carrying ?

2012-2020 LeBron absolutely exercised his 2007 and 2011 Finals demons ,

His first 2 Finals he averaged 19ppg combined 0-2

The next 8 Finals he averaged 30 ppg 4-4 and only lost in situations he was very undermanned vs an all time great team in 2015 and 2018 , or vs teams that were way better than anyone Jordan or Kobe beat in any playoff series ever 2014 Spurs , 2017 Warriors.

People hating on LeBron don’t understand basketball as a team game because they’ve been fed the Jordan 6-0 narrative , not Bulls 6-0 . In 1998 Finals the Bulls held the number 1 offense Utah to 54 points as a team in one of the games .

Jordan never had a #2 and #3 scorer next to him like Wade/Bosh , Kyrie/Love but the help defensively was INSANE , 8x 1st Team defense Pippen , 2x DPOY Rodman who was the number 1 rebounder of the decade at a time where big men like Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing , Robinson, Malone, Barkley dominated the paint, Horace Grant 3x 2nd team all defense , Harper another great defender who was 6’6 playing point at a time the average point guard was 6’1

If you read this far that’s an amazing thing to read that much of something you don’t like is a very brave and intelligent thing to do, to confront a differing perspective

And to be clear my point isn’t to hate on Kobe , I actually think he doesn’t get nearly enough credit for the first 3 peat and I think he’s the 2nd greatest 2 guard ever beside Jordan

But you can see the hate for LeBron and hypocrisy of how he’s judged by the excuses Kobe gets .

If anyone responds I might be asleep , I woke up to piss because I was pissed off by the hypocrisy.

There are 3 23 season eras in NBA history

Era 3 (2003-2025). 23 seasons LEBRON ERA

Era 2 (1980-2002). 23 seasons JORDAN ERA

Era 1. (1957-1979). 23 seasons RUSSELL ERA

TIER 1
LeBron. Jordan. Russell

TIER 2
Steph. Magic. Kareem
Duncan. Bird. Wilt.

TIER 3
Kobe. Shaq. Erving.
*Jokic. Hakeem. West.
Durant. Moses *Pettit.

TIER 4
Dirk. K. Malone. Barry.
Garnett. Barkley. Havlicek.
*Giannis. Robinson. Robertson.
Kawhi . Isiah. Baylor.

TIER 5
Wade. Pippen. Walton.
*Luka. Ewing. E. Hayes.
AD. Drexler. Reed.
Nash. Stockton. Frazier.
Harden . Payton. Cowens.

EXPLANATION (you don’t have to read but all questions about why I rank NBA history this way is copy and pasted below

45 Greatest Players of All Time

ERA 1. (1957-1979) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 1957 because it’s Russell’s rookie season.
Prior to Russell there were no black players at the top of the league 1947-1956 the first 10 seasons of NBA history (segregation).

Russell is the first legitimate goat candidate of league history .

Ends at 1979 because the 3point line was first implemented in the 1979-80 season so that’s a turning point in history with arguably the most significant rule change in league history.

I consider an era of a player the first year they were at least 2nd Team All NBA or the best or 2nd best player on a championship team through the last year that they were at least 2nd Team All NBA or 2nd best player on a championship team.

For example Kareem (1970-1986) 17 season span as an elite player. 1970 2nd Team All NBA as a rookie 22 years old , in 1986 made 1st Team All NBA for the last time in his career year 17 39 years old .

Kareem is in between eras 1 and 2 but he qualifies more for era 1 because more of his seasons as an elite player were 1970-1979 10 seasons vs 1980-1986 7 seasons .
1987-1989 Kareem was not All NBA and was the 3rd to 4th best Lakers his last 2 championships in 1987-1988.

ERA 2 (1980-2002) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 1980 because it’s Magic and Birds rookie season. 1st Team All NBA rookie of the year Bird. Not All NBA but Finals MVP 2nd best player on the championship team Lakers for Magic

Both standing at 6’9 Magic and Bird were the first 6’9 or taller superstars who had elite guard skills, Magic’s passing /floor general , Bird’s shooting/passing .

Ends at 2002 because that’s the last 3peat in NBA history and Shaq is the last score first post dominant Center to win a championship as the best player on a team. The types of big players in the league change significantly after Shaq.

Shaq also is between eras but 1995-2006 is the span of time between his first 2nd Team All NBA in 1995 to his last 1st Team selection and 1st or 2nd best player on a championship team in 2006.
1995-2002 is 8 seasons. 2003-2006 , 4 seasons so fits more in era 2.

ERA 3 (2003-2025) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 2003

A. major turning point in NBA history .
It is Jordan’s fair well tour , simultaneously LeBron enters the season in 2003 as the most hyped prospect of all time in his senior year of high school.

Spurs win the championship , Duncan is the best player in the league beats Kobe and Shaq in 2003 playoffs ending their era .

The Spurs are the first championship team to have European players as part of their Big 3 , Parker and Ginobilli
03, 05, 07.

Dirk in 2003 led the Mavs to a 60-22 season, Dirk another European, first 7ft superstar known for jump shooting .

Nash the Canadian is the point guard for the #1 offense in the league most years between 2002-2010 .
Mavericks and Suns known for modern lineups /offensive philosophy with players like 6’7 Shawn Marion playing the 4 as a non post up player , or 6’8 Frenchman Boris Diaw starting at Center in 2006 playing like a guard .

Also Kevin Garnett near 7ft with guard-like athleticism/frame .
Kevin Durant 2007 , first near 7ft player to play , move and handle like oversized guard.
Pau Gasol in 2009 and 2010 another European, replaces Shaq as Lakers championship big man next to Kobe as a polar opposite type of bigman to Shaq .

Ends at 2025 because it’s the last season LeBron was a 2nd Team All NBA player.

LeBron is the greatest player of the last 23 seasons

In 2005 he was the youngest player in NBA history to make it as high as 2nd Team All NBA at 20 years old .

In 2025 he was the oldest player to make it as high as 2nd Team All NBA at age 40.

LeBron’s real prime though is 2006-2020 . A 15 season span . 2006 was his 1st Playoff appearance at 21 years old and made his 1st 1st Team All NBA, averaged his career high 31ppg

And 2020 was his last 1st Team All NBA season at 35 years old . Jordan’s last championship and 1st Team all NBA season was 35 years old , Russell’s last season and championship was 1969 at 35 years old .

So when I compare Jordan and LeBron I think it’s most fair to compare 2006-2020 LeBron 15 seasons age 21-35 to Jordan’s 1985-1998 13seasons age 22-35
Or Russell 1957-1969 13 seasons age 22-35

A lot of people think it’s fair to discredit LeBron for extra seasons not winning like 2004 and 2005 and 2021 through however long he plays but to me that’s unfair because LeBron is getting discredited for being greater that anyone before the age of 21 and greater than anyone after the age of 35 .

Tier Explanation.

I believe basketball is a team sport so the value of an individual player is never completely independent of the team around them and the opponent /matchup .

For example one roster may have alot of great defensive players like 1990s Bulls with Pippen, Rodman , Grant all 1st or 2nd Team All defensive guys and their roster is more in need of a scorer . Jordan’s skillset fits them best because they need that really aggressive great scorer to complement the teams elite defense .

Or a team could have several great scorers perimeter creators like 60s Celtics with Sam Jones , Havlicek, Cousy etc and they don’t necessarily need a guy scoring 30-40 , insert the greatest defensive player of all time at the most valuable defensive position Center . Someone to slow down other great Centers of the era like Wilt and just make the whole team better.

Or maybe the roster construction is you need a little of everything.

2013 Conference Finals the Miami Heat are 30th in the league in rebounding, the Pacers are 1st.

Chris Bosh averaged 11points and 4 rebounds in the series vs Roy Hibbert 22 points and 10 rebounds, David West 16 points and 9 rebounds.

LeBron stepped up and led his team in points , rebounds, assists, steals , blocks and 3pointers made on 55/44/77 shooting splits and made a game winning shot in game 1.

In 2016 Finals , Draymond Green dominated his matchup Kevin Love , Draymond 16 10 and 6 while being the best defensive player on his team . Love averaged 8 points and 6 rebounds while being the worst defensive player on his team .

So LeBron sure was helped a lot by Kyrie’s scoring

But Lebron in that series was the only player in NBA history to lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in ANY series and he did it in a 7 game NBA Finals legacy on the line vs a 73-9 team being guarded by their best defenders ,guys like Iguodala and Draymond top 5 defenders in the league who don’t have team carrying responsibilities and whose job is to stop him .

So Kyrie offers more scoring next to LeBron than Pippen offered Jordan but Pippen provided a lot more of everything else.

So is Lebron the goat ? No
Is Russell the goat ? No
Is Jordan the goat ? No

Who is the greatest depends on what is needed in the particular situation.

So is LeBron the best scorer like of his era like Jordan? No
Is LeBron the best passer like Magic ? No

Is he a better perimeter defender than Jordan or Kobe ? No

Is he the best interior defender like Russell or Duncan ? No

Is he the best shooter like Steph or Bird? No

Is he the best clutch player like Jordan ? No (but he’s WAY more clutch in his prime during the biggest games and moments than given credit for.

So LeBron isn’t the greatest if you need 1 thing but he’s the greatest if you need a little of everything.

MOST IMPORTANT NOTE ON MY LIST

It’s a TEAM SPORT INDIVIDUALS DO NOT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS BY THEMSELVES.
6-0 vs 4-6 MEANS NOTHING TO ME .
LEBRON COULD HAVE SHIT HIS PANTS VS JJ BAREA IN 2011 OR GO ON TO LOSE 2-3 MORE NBA FINALS AND JOIN 2 MORE SUPERTEAMS IT DOESNT MEAN TO ME WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU AS A LEBRON HATER .

I think that’s all stupid First Take “narrative basketball” and it’s not how I evaluate players to be Iike oh look Kobe is 5-2 in the Finals with wins vs “juggernauts” like the 2002 Nets or in a finals he averaged 15ppg on 36% fg and won in 2000 because Shaq was averaging 38 and 16.

That’s so much more impressive than LeBron losing in Finals vs the greatest teams of all time and averaging 30pt triple double? No it’s not .

To put it in terms a LeBron hater can understand, that’s like saying when Jordan scored 63points in the 1986 1st Round he got swept by the Celtics that because Bird was on the winning team he was the greater player in that game .

There’s no sense in saying because Kobe won in 2000 averaging 15 on 36% it someone how means he was greater than LeBron in 2017 and 2018 Finals averaging an efficient 30 plus point triple double in a loss.

Or Duncan had 5 titles to LeBron’s 4 and is 2-1 vs LeBron in Finals
while he won a Finals averaging 15 and 10 in 2014. And is 5-1 with wins vs mediocre teams by NBA finals standards like 99 Knicks, 2003 Nets, 2007 Cavs vs a young 22 year old LeBron as literally the only good offensive player who can create a shot on his team being defended by 1st Team all defense Bruce Bowen and Duncan had Parker and Ginobilli.

Btw when I have player like Duncan in tier 2 and Kobe in tier 3 , I’m not saying LeBron is significantly better than Duncan or that Duncan is significantly better than Kobe .

LeBron is greater than Steph, Duncan in my opinion both peak and career but there are circumstances where I could imagine Steph or Duncan being more valuable to their team if that team needs the shooting /floor spacing all time great Team Offense like Steph provides or the all time great interior defense Duncan provides

so it’s EXTREMELY NUANCED.

When I compare players within a tier or 2 of each other I don’t perceive a huge gap. All 45 of these guys were incredible in their primes during their era.

ERA 1. (1957-1979) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 1957 because it’s Russell’s rookie season.
Prior to Russell there were no black players at the top of the league 1947-1956 the first 10 seasons of NBA history (segregation).

Russell is the first legitimate goat candidate of league history .

Ends at 1979 because the 3point line was first implemented in the 1979-80 season so that’s a turning point in history with arguably the most significant rule change in league history.

I consider an era of a player the first year they were at least 2nd Team All NBA or the best or 2nd best player on a championship team through the last year that they were at least 2nd Team All NBA or 2nd best player on a championship team.

For example Kareem (1970-1986) 17 season span as an elite player. 1970 2nd Team All NBA as a rookie 22 years old , in 1986 made 1st Team All NBA for the last time in his career year 17 39 years old .

Kareem is in between eras 1 and 2 but he qualifies more for era 1 because more of his seasons as an elite player were 1970-1979 10 seasons vs 1980-1986 7 seasons .
1987-1989 Kareem was not All NBA and was the 3rd to 4th best Lakers his last 2 championships in 1987-1988.

ERA 2 (1980-2002) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 1980 because it’s Magic and Birds rookie season. 1st Team All NBA rookie of the year Bird. Not All NBA but Finals MVP 2nd best player on the championship team Lakers for Magic

Both standing at 6’9 Magic and Bird were the first 6’9 or taller superstars who had elite guard skills, Magic’s passing /floor general , Bird’s shooting/passing .

Ends at 2002 because that’s the last 3peat in NBA history and Shaq is the last score first post dominant Center to win a championship as the best player on a team. The types of big players in the league change significantly after Shaq.

Shaq also is between eras but 1995-2006 is the span of time between his first 2nd Team All NBA in 1995 to his last 1st Team selection and 1st or 2nd best player on a championship team in 2006.
1995-2002 is 8 seasons. 2003-2006 , 4 seasons so fits more in era 2.

ERA 3 (2003-2025) 23 SEASONS
Starts at 2003

A. major turning point in NBA history .
It is Jordan’s fair well tour , simultaneously LeBron enters the season in 2003 as the most hyped prospect of all time in his senior year of high school.

Spurs win the championship , Duncan is the best player in the league beats Kobe and Shaq in 2003 playoffs ending their era .

The Spurs are the first championship team to have European players as part of their Big 3 , Parker and Ginobilli
03, 05, 07.

Dirk in 2003 led the Mavs to a 60-22 season, Dirk another European, first 7ft superstar known for jump shooting .

Nash the Canadian is the point guard for the #1 offense in the league most years between 2002-2010 .
Mavericks and Suns known for modern lineups /offensive philosophy with players like 6’7 Shawn Marion playing the 4 as a non post up player , or 6’8 Frenchman Boris Diaw starting at Center in 2006 playing like a guard .

Also Kevin Garnett near 7ft with guard-like athleticism/frame .
Kevin Durant 2007 , first near 7ft player to play , move and handle like oversized guard.
Pau Gasol in 2009 and 2010 another European, replaces Shaq as Lakers championship big man next to Kobe as a polar opposite type of bigman to Shaq .

Ends at 2025 because it’s the last season LeBron was a 2nd Team All NBA player.

LeBron is the greatest player of the last 23 seasons

In 2005 he was the youngest player in NBA history to make it as high as 2nd Team All NBA at 20 years old .

In 2025 he was the oldest player to make it as high as 2nd Team All NBA at age 40.

LeBron’s real prime though is 2006-2020 . A 15 season span . 2006 was his 1st Playoff appearance at 21 years old and made his 1st 1st Team All NBA, averaged his career high 31ppg

And 2020 was his last 1st Team All NBA season at 35 years old . Jordan’s last championship and 1st Team all NBA season was 35 years old , Russell’s last season and championship was 1969 at 35 years old .

So when I compare Jordan and LeBron I think it’s most fair to compare 2006-2020 LeBron 15 seasons age 21-35 to Jordan’s 1985-1998 13seasons age 22-35
Or Russell 1957-1969 13 seasons age 22-35

A lot of people think it’s fair to discredit LeBron for extra seasons not winning like 2004 and 2005 and 2021 through however long he plays but to me that’s unfair because LeBron is getting discredited for being greater that anyone before the age of 21 and greater than anyone after the age of 35 .

Tier Explanation.

I believe basketball is a team sport so the value of an individual player is never completely independent of the team around them and the opponent /matchup .

For example one roster may have alot of great defensive players like 1990s Bulls with Pippen, Rodman , Grant all 1st or 2nd Team All defensive guys and their roster is more in need of a scorer . Jordan’s skillset fits them best because they need that really aggressive great scorer to complement the teams elite defense .

Or a team could have several great scorers perimeter creators like 60s Celtics with Sam Jones , Havlicek, Cousy etc and they don’t necessarily need a guy scoring 30-40 , insert the greatest defensive player of all time at the most valuable defensive position Center . Someone to slow down other great Centers of the era like Wilt and just make the whole team better.

Or maybe the roster construction is you need a little of everything.

2013 Conference Finals the Miami Heat are 30th in the league in rebounding, the Pacers are 1st.

Chris Bosh averaged 11points and 4 rebounds in the series vs Roy Hibbert 22 points and 10 rebounds, David West 16 points and 9 rebounds.

LeBron stepped up and led his team in points , rebounds, assists, steals , blocks and 3pointers made on 55/44/77 shooting splits and made a game winning shot in game 1.

In 2016 Finals , Draymond Green dominated his matchup Kevin Love , Draymond 16 10 and 6 while being the best defensive player on his team . Love averaged 8 points and 6 rebounds while being the worst defensive player on his team .

So LeBron sure was helped a lot by Kyrie’s scoring

But Lebron in that series was the only player in NBA history to lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in ANY series and he did it in a 7 game NBA Finals legacy on the line vs a 73-9 team being guarded by their best defenders ,guys like Iguodala and Draymond top 5 defenders in the league who don’t have team carrying responsibilities and whose job is to stop him .

So Kyrie offers more scoring next to LeBron than Pippen offered Jordan but Pippen provided a lot more of everything else.

So is Lebron the goat ? No
Is Russell the goat ? No
Is Jordan the goat ? No

Who is the greatest depends on what is needed in the particular situation.

So is LeBron the best scorer like of his era like Jordan? No
Is LeBron the best passer like Magic ? No

Is he a better perimeter defender than Jordan or Kobe ? No

Is he the best interior defender like Russell or Duncan ? No

Is he the best shooter like Steph or Bird? No

Is he the best clutch player like Jordan ? No (but he’s WAY more clutch in his prime during the biggest games and moments than given credit for.

So LeBron isn’t the greatest if you need 1 thing but he’s the greatest if you need a little of everything.

MOST IMPORTANT NOTE ON MY LIST

It’s a TEAM SPORT INDIVIDUALS DO NOT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS BY THEMSELVES.
6-0 vs 4-6 MEANS NOTHING TO ME .
LEBRON COULD HAVE SHIT HIS PANTS VS JJ BAREA IN 2011 OR GO ON TO LOSE 2-3 MORE NBA FINALS AND JOIN 2 MORE SUPERTEAMS IT DOESNT MEAN TO ME WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU AS A LEBRON HATER .

I think that’s all stupid First Take “narrative basketball” and it’s not how I evaluate players to be Iike oh look Kobe is 5-2 in the Finals with wins vs “juggernauts” like the 2002 Nets or in a finals he averaged 15ppg on 36% fg and won in 2000 because Shaq was averaging 38 and 16.

That’s so much more impressive than LeBron losing in Finals vs the greatest teams of all time and averaging 30pt triple double? No it’s not .

To put it in terms a LeBron hater can understand, that’s like saying when Jordan scored 63points in the 1986 1st Round he got swept by the Celtics that because Bird was on the winning team he was the greater player in that game .

There’s no sense in saying because Kobe won in 2000 averaging 15 on 36% it someone how means he was greater than LeBron in 2017 and 2018 Finals averaging an efficient 30 plus point triple double in a loss.

Or Duncan had 5 titles to LeBron’s 4 and is 2-1 vs LeBron in Finals
while he won a Finals averaging 15 and 10 in 2014. And is 5-1 with wins vs mediocre teams by NBA finals standards like 99 Knicks, 2003 Nets, 2007 Cavs vs a young 22 year old LeBron as literally the only good offensive player who can create a shot on his team being defended by 1st Team all defense Bruce Bowen and Duncan had Parker and Ginobilli.

Btw when I have player like Duncan in tier 2 and Kobe in tier 3 , I’m not saying LeBron is significantly better than Duncan or that Duncan is significantly better than Kobe .

LeBron is greater than Steph, Duncan in my opinion both peak and career but there are circumstances where I could imagine Steph or Duncan being more valuable to their team if that team needs the shooting /floor spacing all time great Team Offense like Steph provides or the all time great interior defense Duncan provides

so it’s EXTREMELY NUANCED.

When I compare players within a tier or 2 of each other I don’t perceive a huge gap. All 45 of these guys were incredible in their primes during their era.

The versatile Swiss Army knife multiple position on both ends superstar is my favorite player type and that’s what Flagg could be .

LeBron was the ultimate example of this in history .
2013 Conference Finals vs the Pacers , Heat were 30th ranked in Rebounds , Pacers 1st.
Roy Hibbert and David West destroyed Chris Bosh
22 and 10 from Hibbert , David West 16 and 9, Bosh 11 points and 4 rebounds. Also in that playoffs Wade was dealing with knee issues not playing even playing like an Allstar averaging 15ppg

So LeBron led his team in Points , rebounds, assists , steals , blocks and 3pointers made on 44% fg

2016 Finals LeBron was the only player in any playoff series ever to lead both teams in points, rebounds, assists , blocks and steals per game

Yes I’ve taken this opportunity to LeGlaze my goat but also because Flagg reminds me most of LeBron

Idk if Flagg will ever lead his team in every category in playoff series but it’s conceivable for him to peak as that sort of player except as an 18/19 year old rookie his offensive skill level far exceeded LeBron at that age , albeit in a league that’s easier to score in , (league scoring average was near all time low in 03-04 )

So even though Flagg doesn’t have freight train body or top 5 athlete in human history type of athleticism, I could see his skill level and mental attributes one day making him the goat .

What do you think ? Am I Flagglazing ? I think he’s a lot more special than Tatum .

Pt 1
The Celtics 1957-1966 won 9 championships in 10 seasons .

From 1967-2026 no team has won more than 3 championships in 5 year span .

But there has been 3 teams to 3peat that all took place in a 12 year span 1991-2002

Bulls 1991-1993 3peat

Rockets 1994-1995

Bulls 1996-1998 3 peat

Spurs. 1999

Lakers 2000-2002

The best player Jordan faced in any Finals is who ?

94-95 Hakeem had the highest peak of any 90s player besides Jordan and the 3point line was introduced in 1980, the Rockets at that point was the greatest shooting 3 point team of all time by the statistics.

1999 Tim Duncan and David Robinson rim protection duo is greater than any team Jordan beat in the 90s.

2000-2002 Shaq and Kobe is a better team than Jordan ever had to face with an elite scorer at his position in Kobe and a Center in Shaq who was having the most dominant 3 Finals run of any player besides Jordan.

Is it fair to say that Jordan is not guaranteed to win anymore championships if he hadn’t retired in 1994 and 1999-2001 and even unlikely granted 4 in 5 years hasn’t been done in 65 years and these opponents are too good to just hand him hypothetical victory.

LeBron states his career 0-2 in the Finals

He won his first championship at age 27 in his 7th playoff appearance.
Jordan so his first championship at age 28 in his 7th playoff appearance.

LeBron won his last championship and made his last first team All NBA in 2020 at 35 years old

Jordan won his last championship and made his last first team All NBA in 1998 at 35 years old .

LeBron has played 6 seasons past age 35 2021-2026

Granted Duncan/Robinson is the all time rim protection duo
And Shaq and Kobe is the all time duo

No guarantee even unlikely Jordan wins any more championships if he played 6, 7 , 8 any more seasons unless from age 36 to 41.

So therefore it is fair to compare

LeBron Age 27-35 2012-2020

Jordan Age 28-35 1991-1998

Because these are each the span of time they won all of their championships?

And because Lebron didn’t win any championships age 19-26 and Jordan also didn’t win any championships age 19-26 it’s reasonable to compare ?

LeBron lost for 8 seasons before chip 1
Jordan lost for 6 seasons before chip 1

Jordan was a sophomore more and junior in college at 20-21 . He didn’t win a championship in college those 2 years before the NBA had Sam Perkins and Kenny Smith as teammates.

Is it least fair to say no guarantee Jordan wins a championship with an extra 2 years at age 20, 21 .

So therefore when people say

It’s taken LeBron 23 years to win 4 championships

And took Jordan 6 to win 15

There’s 7 years (82, 83, 84,) in college 94 , 99, 01 , 02 spent retired .

So conclusion

It is a bad faith argument Jordan has 6 in 15 and LeBron 4 in 23.

Add 7 more Jordan seasons coming to the league at 19, 20, 21 , retiring when the competition would’ve been its toughest any title after age 35.

There’s 2 versions of LeBron vs Jordan than are fair to compare
1985-1990

1.) Each of their first 6 playoff appearances before their first championship

Jordan 1985-1990 age 22-27
LeBron 2006-2011 age 21-26

2.) The windows they won all of their championships before the age of 36z

Jordan 1991-1998
LeBron. 2012-2020

Is this a fair assessment?

1957-1969 Bill Russell won 11 championships in 13 seasons , his career high in points…?

18.9 ppg

Yet everyone agreed Russel was the Celtics best player despite rarely being their best scorer , that was usually Sam Jones who won 10 championships with Russell and deserves way more credit than he gets .

Russell was considered the best player on his teams because of how he elevated the team in other ways besides scoring like being the greatest leader in American team sports history before Tom Brady , being a competitive and durable MF , passing , running the floor wearing out opposing bigmen , energy all game , being a great athlete, setting screens , getting crazy rebound numbers battling against Wilt the greatest athlete physical force combination in NBA history before Shaq and Lebron.

Oh yea and Russell was the greatest defensive player of all time until possibly Wembanyama. Playing at a time they didn’t record blocks , he probably averaged 8-10 albeit in an easier era to block shots . Still insane .

6’10 7’4 wingspan athletic even by today’s standards, coordinated , greatest basketball IQ of his era , had no offensive game but in today’s game he’d be athletic enough to just rim run and be like a hybrid of Ben Wallace , Draymond Green, Dennis Rodman but with easier baskets at the rim compared to the 60s with no 3 point line paint clogged with post up big men he might still average 15-20 pts still idk with modern training how he’d develop , add incredible winning intangibles like IQ and leadership with that .

Russell started his career 9-1 in the Finals . The one year he lost was in year 2 he was playing hurt limping around and even missed 2 games, the only 2 playoff games he missed his entire career.

He then won 8 championships in a row after 1958 as the Celtics undisputed best player.

In his Final season as player coach of the Celtics the Celtics upset the Lakers in the 1969 NBA Finals to win their 11th championship. 11-1

The 1969 Lakers had a new big 3

The best Laker in history at that point in time , the greatest guard of all time and greatest shooter of all time before Rick Barry and Larry Bird , the logo Jerry West(who had no 3 point line to add even more value for his greatest strength ) ,

They also had. the greatest small forward of all time Elgin Baylor most athletic small forward of all time before Dr J came along

and the new addition to the Lakers that season was the 2nd best of all time Center to Russell , Wilt Chamberlain.

The original superteam . Russell not even in his prime averaged 48 minutes per game in a 7 game NBA Finals series vs the greatest superteam ever , as player coach and came out victorious in his final NBA season.

Russell 10-0 in game 7s in his career .
7-0 in NBA Finals vs Jerry West and Baylor during the 60s
7-1 in playoffs series vs Wilt in the 60s

1-0 vs all 3 of them together.

1967 Wilt won his first chip in year 8 and beat Russell the only time in his career in a series averaging a then career low 24ppg on a 68-13 76ers team the greatest record ever at that point, a year earlier he averaged 33ppg and his team was the same players on paper but played worse .
Wilt attempted 11 less shots per game and won his first chip (points aren’t everything ) up to that point his career ppg average was

39ppg, in his 2 only championship seasons 24ppg and 14ppg

1970 Knicks center Willis Reed wins championship mvp and finals MVP averaging 21ppg during that season. Beat roo Kareem in conference Finals and Lakers big 3 in the Finals 7 games (will Willis play)

Kareem in his 2nd season 1971 wins the championship averaging 31 ppg that season

But was it an easy road to the championship? From 1969-1973 the Lakers with West and Chamberlain went to the Finals 4 out of 5 seasons . The year they didn’t 1971 Kareem beat Wilt in conference finals but Jerry West and Baylor were both out injured .

1972 Wilt and West win championship on 69-13 Lakers team without Baylor(injured retired) . Wilt averaged 14 ppg . Jerry West and Wilt beat Kareem and Big O in conference finals . Kareem won no more championship after 1971 until Magic came along in 1980 .

1974 and 1976 Celtics win 2 championships with Dave Cowens averaging barely 20ppg as their best player with Havlicek 8-0 in the Finals , 6 with Russell, 2 with Cowens.
1974 Cowens beat Kareem in the NBA Finals.

1977 in his 3rd season Bill Walton plays a then career high 65 games . His first playoff appearance leads a Blazers team considered underdogs to sweep #1 seed Lakers team with Kareem in conference finals and win the Finals vs Dr J and the Sixers .

Walton averaged 18ppg.

I believe if Bill Walton had a healthy 20 year career like Kareem he would’ve been a greater all time player because of how much he impacted the game in other ways like Bill Russell. After winning Finals MVP in 1977 his 3rd season and first playoff run , Walton led Portland to a 50-10 record, on pace to be close for greatest record of all time . Walton then got hurt a basically missed 5 years in a row with injury .never was the same . After 1 of the highest 2 season peaks in NBA history.

Moses Malone then won 3mvps in 5 years 1979 to 1983 winning a championship in 1983 with the most stacked Sixer team of all time, 12-1 in playoffs , Moses greatest strength was rebounding and averaged 24ppg that year.

Kareem wins 5 championships in the 80s none of those years Lakers won did he average over 25ppg and he’s on the most stacked team with Magic best point guard of all time until maybe Steph took over in 2016-2022 , also in a much weaker Western Conference, cake walk to finals many years compared to Bird battling great Sixers, Bucks and Pistons teams .

Bird was the first 6’9 or taller great shooter the league had seen , Magic was the first super sized 6’9 point guard. They are the 2 best players of the 80s

Kareems last 2 championships he was their 3rd to 4th option on offense behind Magic, Worthy , Scott

Between 1957 Russells rookie year and first championship season and 1993 Jordan’s 3rd championship season , only 1 big man won a championship during a season they averaged over 25ppg , Kareem in 71 vs Lakers no Jerry West and no Elgin Baylor , Wilt past his prime .

1994 and 1995 Hakeem breaks that streak with Jordan retired 94 losing round 2 in 95,

with MJ gone there aren’t really any great scoring/playmaking guards small forwards ready to win championships in the league. Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill are talented but too young , Pippen is 3rd in MVP voting 1994 , the other 4 in the top 5 are post bigs, 1995 7th in MVP voting and the top 6 all post bigs

Plus Hakeem’s number 1 skill wasn’t scoring it was defense and Rockets were the #1 3 point shooting team in the league so the post game was complemented by shooting . Hakeem Rockets at that point in time were probably the best 3 point shooting team in league history since 1980 when the NBA added it .

The reason I think the 90s Bulls were so good is because how their team was constructed especially second 3peat

Harper 6’6 Point guard , in the 90s the average height of a point guard was 6’1 6’2 and they weren’t usually big over 20ppg scorers .
, the season before he joined the Bulls he averaged 20ppg . Now he’s their 5th best player and an exceptional defender .

Jordan 6’6 best 2way guard in league history to this day

Pippen 6’8 long wingspan , 8x 1st Team defense , 3 1st Team all NBA. Arguably the best 2nd best player on any team in the league. Best Small foward defender ever until maybe Kawhi 2014-2017

Kukoc 6’11 Euro who is a big man’s height but plays like a guard. He’s one of the first of this prototype , 1996 the 72 win team he shot 40% from 3 on 2.7 attempts

Rodman 6’7 but after the 1990s is the greatest rebounder ever arguably who can rebound and defend against the great 25-12 post players of that era like Ewing ,Shaq, Malone , Barkley , Kemp etc

And it was an advantage on that team that he didn’t need the ball at all just played within the team not wasting offense on post up taking shot attempts away from Jordan .

2 things can be true Jordan is the greatest 2 guard ever and he had the perfect team built around him and he probably doesn’t win 6 if the team was constructed another way . The 90s Bulls were how basketball should’ve been in played all along, they were too fast and athletic for teams playing dinosaur basketball. They were the greatest defense of all time after the 1960s Russell Celtics , 3 1st Team All Defensive guys in the same starting line up .

Lastly 1999-2003

Tim Duncan wins 2 championships 1999, 2003 both under 25ppg that season , Duncan and Robinson is the greatest rim protecting duo in history during the lowest scoring era in NBA history . 1999 literally the lowest scoring seasons in NBA history since before Bill Russell.

Shaq 3 peat 2000, 2001, 2002 became the 3rd with Hakeem and Kareem to be a score first mentality post big and win during a season they averaged over 25ppg.

Shaq was awesome but also on the most stacked team in the league with Kobe the 2nd best 2way shooting guard of all time to MJ , no other team the years they repeated even had 2 All NBA players let alone 2 top 10 all time . Plus Lakers barely got of the conference finals vs Pippen , Rasheed, Sabonis Blazers in 2000 and Peja , Webber, Divac Kings in 2002. 7 game series conference finals where Lakers came extremely close to being eliminated despite their 2nd best player Kobe being better than the 1st best player on the opposing team in any series they played in besides maybe against Duncan who’s number 2 Robinson was declining not even. close to Kobe in 01 , 02.

Plus a lot of the offense was Shaq post double teams creating open 3s for Horry the first great stretch 4 in history . Plus Fisher who was the best 3 point shooting starting point guard at the time .

From 2002- Since Shaq only 3 big men have won championships as #1 options on their team

Duncan , Dirk , Jokic

Jokic and Dirk the 2 most skilled bigmen ever and both play very modern big games , Duncan was on this balanced team with Parker , Ginobilli ,later Kawhi so Duncan isn’t a consistently feed me every night post big man , he scores big when needed .

Am I saying all score first bigs suck and have negative value or no value?

No if you got a guy getting 30ppg on 55-70% fg that’s helpful regardless if it’s post ups or not but it’s been proven that perimeter players are more valuable offensively to the TEAM .

Big men’s greatest value really comes from defense , rebounding , if they can stretch the floor drawing opposing bigs away from the hoop to open up driving lanes ,

also they usually have to be great passers for their position to lead a team to a title .

I say all this to say I’m not so convinced Bill Russell isn’t 2nd best player all time to LeBron #1 over Jordan #3 .

But either way it’s those 3 to me as the 3 greatest ever to me if I had to choose but it’s all so subjective.

2013 Conference Finals
Pacers are the #1 rebounding team in the league.
Heat are 30th dead last

Heat starting front court
Chris Bosh averaged 11pts and 4rebounds in the series , Haslem averaged 6 points and 4 rebounds.

Roy Hibbert 22 and 10 , David West 16 and 9.

Bosh and Haslem were too small to handle the girth and tonnage of Hibbert and West .

LeBron had to guard some of all 5 positions

Averaged 29.0 pts 7.2 rebounds 5.3 assists 1.4 steals , 1.4 blocks on 51/44 shooting splits

7 game series,

led his team all 5 statistical categories including 3 pointers made .

2016 NBA Finals

Vs the 73-9 Warriors

Warriors at that point are statistically the greatest offense the league had ever seen .
With the most efficient guard scoring season of all time , 2x MVP Steph .

Kevin Love is hurt averaging only 8 points and 6 rebounds 2 assists on 36/26 shooting splits as the worst defender on his team , compared to Draymond Green averaging 16 10 and 6 on 48/40 shooting splits as the 1st or 2nd best defender in the league with Kawhi .

7 game series
LeBron averaged
29.7 points 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists 2.6 steals , 2.3 blocks

The only player in NBA history to lead both teams in any playoff series in all 5 major statistical categories.

Is LeBron a better 2 way player than Kobe or MJ ? Probably not

But they never were tasked with being their teams best scorer , playmaker , rebounder , perimeter defender and interior defender all at once in any series they ever played in .

Rodman was the greatest rebounder of all time statistically after the 1960s. He also had won 2 DPOYs

Rodman , Grant , Cartwright , Longley - they had to deal with the great power forwards and centers of the 90s , like Malone, Barkley , Ewing , Shaq , Kemp

Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender of the 1990s , 8x 1st Team All defense. And often would take the toughest defensive assignment for MJ. Also led the team in assists during the championship years .

Kobe had Shaq dominating the interior . Kobe could pass but wasn’t nearly a facilitator to the extent LeBron was .
The 2009 and 2010 Lakers that won back to back were 1st and 2nd in Rebounds those 2 years .
Pau Gasol, Odom, Bynum was by far the best trio of big men in the league. Dwight Howard was the best 2-way center , but Gasol was probably 2nd best and best offensively during those years . Odom and Bynum next to him .

Ron Artest won a DPOY in his prime and would take on tougher assignments for Kobe .

Jordan and Kobe were great all around players but they were in a position they mostly only had to worry about scoring (attempted more shots than LeBron thus averaged more points at their peak )
And guard their position.

LeBron at his best was needed to do it all .

The Greatest scoring point guard ever Steph Curry with the greatest Scoring Small forward Kevin Durant

With a top 3 best defensive player of his era Draymond Green ,

With a 2 guard in conversation as the 2nd greatest shooter ever to Steph , once scored 38 in 1 quarter and 60 through 3 quarters hardly dribbling the ball at all .

That’s what it took to stop Lebron and Kyrie from winning back to back titles in 2017.

Literally the greatest team ever assembled.

2018 Playoffs LeBron is having an all time playoff run without Kyrie and again has to face the greatest team ever assembled.

2017 the “loser LeBron”
Averaged
33 points 12 rebounds 10 assists 1.4 steals 1.0 blocks on 55/38 shooting splits
Vs the #1 offense and 2nd rated defense.

2018
34 points 8 rebounds 10 assist 1.3 steals 1.0 blocks on 52/33 shooting splits.

2016-2018 in the Finals was way better than Jordan in the Finals his 2nd 3peat , LeBron just didn’t 3 peat because Warriors created the best team ever and Kyrie left .

2012-2014 LeBron was on the same level as 1991-1993 first 3 peat Jordan but Dwyane Wade started declining physically and was no where near the top 5 player LeBron joined 3 years earlier and 2014 Spurs are the best Spurs team in Franchise history which says a lot because they won 5 championships.

LeBrons peak 7 seasons

Ages 27-33
2012, 2013 , 2014 , 2015, 2016, 2017 , 2018

Are better than Jordan’s peak 7 seasons
Ages 27-35
1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998

I’ve been trying to explain my why Lebron is the goat case since 2018 before he joined the Lakers .
There’s still more layers of explaining why 2012-2018 Lebron is who I believe is the best player ever , mainly going into more detail of how he played in big games during his peak 7 seasons .

2012-2018
6-0 in Game 7s in the playoffs
Including 2-0 in the finals
Most playoff buzzer beaters of all time , with 4 just in this time period, Jordan is # 2 all time with 3 in his entire career .
What LeBron did in game 6 2012 conference finals on the road at Boston down 3-2 , following what happened in the 2011 Finals you can argue the highest pressure game of any individual players career in the history of American team sports than wasn’t a game 7 of the Finals , World Series or Super Bowl.
But really more pressure because of the career long scrutiny of LeBron’s legacy.

45 points, 15 rebounds 5 assists on 19/26 fg 73% arguably the best game of his career

Or in 2013 NBA Finas game 7 his first game 7 of the Finals vs another all time great Spurs team had his best game of the series and in conversation with best game 7 performances in NBA history especially game 7 of an NBA Finals

38 points 12 rebounds 4 assists , 5/10 from 3

Tight game under a minute left Tim Duncan misses a potential game tying shot near the rim with 47 seconds left , LeBron comes down and hits a game sealing mid range jump shot with 28 seconds left to put the Heat up 4.

The narratives haters have around him are completely delusional, I’ve never seen anything like it .

But ultimately the goat debate will always be subjective even though I firmly believe LeBron over MJ. There’s so many different ways one can look at it and it’s all about how you’re framing the conversation, LeBron haters or MJ Stan’s only will put his career in negative framing /context and they’ve mainstreamed that interpretation of events where the focus is on things like 6 Finals losses and 2011 Finals being indeed the worst finals performance by any player commonly put in goat debates besides Kobe in 2000 averaged 15 3 and 3 on 36% fg and won because Shaq averaged 38 and 16.

MJ I would say regular season his peak 7 is higher than LeBron, LeBron stopped winning MVPs and have 1st Team All Defense selections after 2013 which was his peak season , Heat 66-16 , started off 29-14 finished 37-2 , won back to back MVPs , Olympic gold medal the summer 2012 finished 2nd in DPOY.

Why didn’t LeBron get more MVPs? Jordan 5 LeBron 4 , or more defensive 1st Teams Jordan 9 , LeBron 5 .

LeBron was still the best player in the world and a top 5 defensive player every playoffs but he’d pace himself during regular seasons because he was in the middle of an 8 year run 2011-2018 where he played more games in an 8 year span than any player in NBA history because he reached the Finals all 8 years .