Seen people trying to downplay certain characters by saying they ran from or were bashed away by Rage Savage from S3. So I thought it prudent to highlight just how much of a power cliff the zabrak is meant to represent from a top down perspective from his creators and from other quotes as well.

1. Creator quotes.

We'll make this pretty quick.

George Lucas: Lucas is the one who had the idea to create Savage. He envisions him as a "new and improved super hyped up version of Darth Maul" who is "bigger and angrier" pretty blunt and speaks to the level of intent as George created Maul himself.

Dave Filoni: Filoni notes that Savage is

But Savage Opress under Dooku, y'know, we had to accelerate the process, of course, through our animated series to make it believable that he as a combatant could take out Jedi, but part of the point of being a powerful evil being is he, um, is taking that quick and easy path, and he amasses a lot of power, but he lacks knowledge. So he's a brute force of nature, he is a monster, y'know unleashed, and now he'll be trained to a pretty poor degree by Dooku. Um, so he's just a weapon in the galaxy that's confused and damaged at this point."

~ Dave Filoni, Weekly ForceCast Interviews

Whats notable about this is that Filoni seems to think Savage is hindered past this point. Meaning his S4 version is likely nerfed.

2. Promo Material

These materials also point to Savage being a step up in the clone wars power creep wise.

"You've watched Jedi battle Sith, Clones battle separatists, and secrets be revealed, but now, everything's about to change. A dark lord's betrayal will set in motion a chain of events that even the Jedi might not be powerful enough to stop, and lead to the creation of a new threat. One who could consume the galaxy with hate. Basically he's no joke. It's time for the Clone Wars to kick into high gear, and nothing will be the same."

- Nightsister Trilogy Trailer

Pretty straight forward. Savage threatens to consume the galaxy wth his hate. Even the Jedi might not be able to stop him

However, Dooku and Asajj Ventress discover that their creation has a will of his own, and that he has grown more powerful than either of them had anticipated - perhaps even more powerful than the combined forces of the Jedi and the Sith.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110122001021/http://www.starwars.com/theclonewars/witches_weekly/index.html

Savage is a credible threaten to the Jedi and Sith combined. Lets keep going

3. Fact Files/Guides

Savage is a challenge for any Jedi. Yoda logically included.

Its considered a valid question if Savage is the strongest force user

Yoda senses Oppress creation and as he grows stronger is considered a threat to the Jedi and Sith collectively

Basically Rage Savage in his first appearence is top tier. So using him as downplay just kind of does not work and certain people should stop doing it.

In this blog we will be looking at the various depictions of Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi across the current Star Wars canon and attempting to gather of cohensive picture of where it places Vader and his former master both within the contest and the verse as a whole

We will start with the most immovable and reliable depiction of the fight and go back to-

Where it All Began

Here we see Vader and Ben clash for 2 minutes on screen. But it should be noted that given Han, Leia and Luke's travel and scenes it may be closer to 5-10 minutes. During this time The two stand completely toe to toe for as much as 15 second long exchanges. With both combatants forcing the other back at different points

This is the most general take of the fight scene available. Both appear to be on even terms. With Vader holding a slight edge but Kenobi able to stand toe to toe for what (in a lightsaber duel) is a very prolonged period.

For the Hard of Hearing

Our next port of call will be the audio description of the fight on D+. Which reads as follows.

>

A slightly more detailed account. But not one that adds anything that wasn't clear from the visuals. Kenobi is openly challenging Vader. Thrusting and parrying with neither deemed to be getting an edge.

Obi-Wan also appears "fearless" and addresses Vader with "piercing focus"

Thus far what have seems to be a battle of equals. So lets add some more layers

Whether That Was a Penalty Or Not, The Referee Thought Otherwise.

Now we move on to statements describing the battle and the combatants and see what details we can glean from them

The duel is more "careful and measured" than Mustafar. Due to Kenobi being "out of practice" and Vader being being restricted by his cybernetics.

Kenobi is "no longer a great swordsman", is "older and weaker", "slowed by age" and is "fighting in an older style" to conserve his energies. But remains "precise and swift" and matches Vader "move for move" despite his "failing powers". Yet has aquired "greater mastery of the force than ever". An interesting apparent contradition. Or it appears to be. Lets continue

Vader is "smashing" down on Kenobi, "both physically and with the force" and is "too strong" for Kenobi.

A more detailed picture is appearing to form. With the two fighters being somewhat out of practice or hindered. They are both cautious and restraining themselves. But only to a degree. As made clear in the movie and audio description above we know Vader had no issues "lashing out" and "smashing" Kenobi with "mighty strikes" making another apparent contradiction. Or it appears to be. Which leads us to

And The Horse You Read In On

As it stands in canon there are 3 proper depictions of ANH in the form of prose.

A New Hope Novelization

The Princess, The Scoundrel and the Farmboy

Time of Death

We will be looking at each of these and the details they add. Let's start with

The Princess, The Scoundrel and the Farmboy

And thats all of the fight thats in the book. Nothing really to be gained here. But placed for the sake of completionism.

A New Hope Novelization

A more detailed take here. Kenobi assumes an offensive stance and slowly edges back to the Falcon. Vader also posits here that Kenobi's power had not dimished but that his "study of the force" had continued. Which is backed by the statements above. All of this, this far lines up nicely bar a few things.

If Kenobi's study and mastery of the force continued to grow why was he so much weaker?

How is Vader "measured and cautious" and yet "smashing" away with "mighty strikes"

Well thankfully thats all answered in

Time of Death

NGL. A re-read of this story is what prompted this blog. Mainly due to the way snippets of it have been posted out of context. So we'll be going deep here.

Power At a Price

The first thing the novel gives us is a perfect reconcile for why Obi-Wan simultaneously has "greater mastery of the force" and "failing powers". Or as put by Kenobi

>- Time of Death

Ben's deep connection to the force and preperation to become a spirit has lead him to become somewhat unanchored in time. He exists in constant flux. Between past, present and future unable to focus. How does this manifest in battle?

>Time of Death

Ben is essentially split between two moments in time. Splitting his focus and energies. A catastrophic state to be in during a pitched lightsaber duel. But it only gets worse when you add in

You've Always Got Time For a Good ol Nam Flashback

Yeah Kenobi has a lot of real estate in traumaland and here it seems it all pays off with interest.

>Time of Death

Every word spoken sends him hurdling unanchored through time. There's more but I feel as though these examples make Kenobi's mental state very clear.

As every word triggers a different percieved reality, past, present and future his "training, of discipline, ebb away" leaving him all the weaker and more vulnerable. While Vader remains cautious and on guard.

Now Back to the Show

Onto the events of the fight itself

>Time of Death

This all syncs perfectly with all details shown above. After a initial testing exchange from both fighters Vader now takes command of the duel and is free to assert his usual more dominant style. This would be at timemarks 0:32-0:52

Moving forward

>Time of Death

The clash depicted here in the bolded section is not present in the theatrical version. Nor in the other depictions. Which would lead me to dismiss it its also contradicted by Ben actually forcing Vader back at 1:21.

>Time fo Death

ToD seems to posit that as of the line "you should not have come back" that Kenobi's "resources are depleted" and his "body is screaming in pain". This would place him in this state at 1:09. After this point Ben fully stalemates Vader for 15 seconds and then further minutes offscreen. Holding his ground and forcing Vader back at 1:21. The novel then procedes to generalize the progression the hanger and the further near 20 second stalemate exchange once there

Better Than You'd Think

So with all the depictions laid out in front of us where does the clash on the Death Star stand? Well lets recap

First, the fighters

Vader is straight forward in this regard. With their previous encounters in mind he is being more cautious and sniffing out Kenobi's abilities before overcommitting like last time. However once he finds Kenobi lacking he goes all in. "Smashing" down on Kenobi, "both physically and with the force" and is "too strong" for Kenobi.

Kenobi is "no longer a great swordsman", is "older and weaker", "slowed by age" and is "fighting in an older style" to "conserve his energies." But remains "precise and swift" and matches Vader "move for move". He has aquired "greater mastery of the force than ever". However this results in him being "overwhelmed" as the "past, the present, even the future" are shown to him and it is "too much to bear".

Mentally in this case "Every word is a trigger" dragging him "back and forth through the years" and this causes "years of training, of discipline" to ebb away.

Kenobi in this abysmal state lasts for a prolonged period despite Vader's best efforts. Even at the tail end of the fight he is able to stand toe to toe with Vader with giving any ground. Marking him by this assessment, even with all this against him, as a peer of Vader.

Now the question becomes, where does this leave Ben within SW as a whole.

Stepping Into a Larger World

So from the above analysis there are two main takeaways to determine Bens postion

1. He's weaker than RotS Kenobi

2. He's relative to Vader while heavily hindered

Where does RotS Kenobi stand?

Kenobi is "only person in the order skilled enough to defeat Grievous" and is by some sources "unmatched in lightsaber skill". This is lended further consistency upon his contention with Mustafar Anakin in raw power and surpassing him in skill as well.

Ben is to some degree weaker than this. But by how much? Well let's look at point 2.

Where does Darth Vader stand?

Vaders best scaling as of ANH is outclassing Rebels Maul and Ahsoka and fighting Karbin for a protracted period.

Rebels Mauls best feat is contending with Ahsoka for 2 minutes straight with neither getting an edge

This Ahsoka is slightly superior than TCW Ahsoka having become "more measured" but only "grown spiritually", as opposed to combatively. Her best feats are being on the level with S7 Maul and temporarily contending with Grievous the same Grievous who on even ground can easily dismiss Maul

Vader is able to consistently and immedietly push back and herd Tano.

Unlike Ben who can stand toe to toe with the Sith

This is extremely useful as it provides a common data point. So we know Ben scales comfortably above Tano. But where does he stop?

ANH Vader cannot defeat Greivous

This is not a conclusion I expected to reach upon starting this blog. But upon re-read of the comic there really is no other conclusion.

Events that occur during this duel. Which takes place between pages 107-136. 29 pages. The Mustafar duel isn't that long

Chewbacca and Krrysantan have a prolonged fist fight during which R2 and Han have full blown conversations

Luke investigates the ruins having full blown spoken aloud monologues

He then has an extended firefight with stormtroopers. During which BT and his counterpart have a full blown conversation. Then decide to intervene in said firefight

We then cut back to the fight. Karbin states Vader is outmatched. Vader resorts to TK. This allows him to take away one of Karbins arms. But is struck in return. The two continue stalemating

Then we cut away to

The wookies still going at it

Han and Luke having a full blown conversation

Luke is knocked unconcious

We cut back to Vader and Karbin still stalemating. The issues ends

The second issue and they're still fighting

Leia thinks on killing Vader and instead chooses to save her friends.

Aphra states that Vader is losing Luke but he can't dismiss Karbin in time. Aphra says she can help. Vader lets her.

We cut back again to the wookie fight

Aphra manages to stop Karbin.

Despite promising him a "quick death"

Despite his son being on planet, Leia being right next to him and all of it slipping through his fingers by the seconds Vader cannot beat Karbin. There's no way around this. The two fight for a massively extended period. Where characters switch locations and a huge amount of dialogue is spoken. And Vader cannot win. Karbin isn't even strained and is even confidant throughout. So.

Where does Karbin stand?

Karbin is an equal threat to GG.

While it is true that Karbin was stated to be an improved design there are several factors to take into account here

1. Karbin has a jetpack

2. Karbin lacks the fleshsack weakpoint

3. Karbin isn't hacking up a lung every 5 seconds as a result

4. Karbin lack Dooku's training

5. Karbin lacks Grievous' experience.

This is why Karbin at the end of the day only ends up being by aggregate an equal of GG rather than a superior. And one Vader cannont beat.

More Than We Imagined

So where does Ben Kenobi scale?

Ben should easily scale above the likes Maul and Tano. Inquisitors would be of no issue to him.

However he would falter against adversaries such as General Grievous much as Vader did. Falling to his lack of stamina. He definitnely is overall far below his OWK and RotS iterations.

Now to be generous, Ben may in fact be much higher than this. His utterly terrible mental state upon his encounter with Vader taints this showing to a fair degree. It is entirely possible he could defeat someone like Grievous when not having his skill and discipline worn away.

Thanks for reading

In Wild Space on the Planet Leneahra there exists a fluid you can drink that gifts you the ability to use the force. This fluid turns out to be the lifeblood of the sentinet planet itself which is force sensitive. After sneaking away from the temple to impress Qui-Gon, Kenobi finds himself caught up in the plot of a buisnessman to harvest and take the planet andd the power it can give for himself. With the help of some locals who have been drinking small amounts of the fluid to survive the attacks of the planet (opening chasms like giant mouths sicing wildlife on them etc) Kenobi foils their plans. In a rage their leader consumes a massive amount of the fluid with the purpose of fighting and killing them.

Just drinking a large amount of the fluid raises his power to be on par with Yodas. To be clear, Yoda has taken part in exhibition matches and such in the Temple and you can readily sense peoples power even at rest regardless. So there's no reason to think Kenobi would be to far from the truth here. Regardless-

He then completely bathes in the fluid and gets massively amped above that

He is capable of throwing massive stones and lifting entire cave systems with TK

Despite this Kenobi is able to hold him off and defends fodder allies while doing so

Eventually Kenobi is able to defeat Loegrib. Not through power, but by exploiting his lack of focus

Thoughts? Does this raise your opinion of early canon Kenobi?

I wish to expand on this its something thats been carried over from Legends that many have missed.

The novel begins with the duo being very out of sync. Kenobi has been holding a grudge at Qui-Gon for holding back to just standard techniques. However this is not due to a lack of faith in Kenobis abilites.

In fact Kenobi is even faster than Jinn realized. Now despite this limitation and the strain it puts on the twos relationship Kenobi's performances speak for themselves during their upcoming skimishes

Jinn still sees Kenobi's potential shine through. And notably Kenobi outspeeds Jinn. Leading them to work together as never before. This prompts Jinn to finally reveal why he had been holding Kenobi back all this time.

Jinn's intent was for Kenobi to become "untouchable" and immune to the trapping and weaknesses of other Jedi. Once Kenobi realizes this and embraces the training rather than being restricted by it.... well.

Kenobi is now no longer a "shadow" of an apprentice. He's fighting as "brilliantly as any knight" and he has fully connected to the force. Fighting as an equal. Or perhaps....

Kenobi notes that while the master is meant to be the stronger of the two his recent progress has reversed the situation. Making him the more capable as of the moment. Which leads the council to promote him over Qui-Gon.

Now Qui-Gon does have his own arc concerning his ties to prophecy and Dooku. Which eventually lead to him having a revelation and deepening of his connection himself. However this doesn't make Jinn more powerful than Kenobi again

On the contrary it changed the dynamic of their relationship to one of partnership of equals than master and apprentice.

This is a dynamic that is played out in Legends as well. But as said above it has carried over into canon. Kenobi undoubtably scales to Qui-Gon before and up to TPM. And can fight "as brilliantly as any knight" Qui-Gon has seen.

Thanks for reading.