u/Electronic-Math-364

Both Jon and Daenerys's ruling arcs in ADWD are parallels to each other,They rule The Night Watch/Mereen they do many bad decisions,it ends up backfiring in their face

The only difference is what got them killed/Overthrown,Jon didn't compromise,Picked a "My way or the highway",Hid many things from his own men who slowly started to hate him more in more and decided to desert the Night Watch to save who he thinks is Arya,He made the mistake to become too hated and never compromise,Broke literally all his vows and got executed for it.Meanwhile Dany she was compromising with the Mereneese and it did led to peace,But it also caused that many viewed her compromise as a sign of Weakness.And things ended up backfiring so she decides to follow "Fire and Blood" and unleash her fury on the world that rejected her.

We know that GRRM endorsed the Mereneese Blot which pretty much state that Dany should have continued compromising And that her stopping And Going "Fire and Blood" is selfish and is locking herself in the Bad Ending and would lead her to a dark path.

So could it possibly that the plan was for Jon to take the right lesson and Dany the wrong lesson.Jon post Resurrection would then become more honorable,Acting more like Ned Stark 2.0,He will bring justice to the Boltons by swinging the sword and follow more honor all the while compromising with his enemies to achieve peace

Meanwhile Dany she would think that violance is the easy anwser and unleash it on anyone who oppose her as it the only way it get results,To the point that her dynamic with her advisors(Jorah atleast) get reversed with them telling her to control her worst impulses,She will also stop caring about "Home" and "Family" and the "House with the Red Door",The Important thing is to get The Iron throne and SHE WILL GET IT!No matter the method.And if anyone oppose her or try to stop her from getting her throne,They are her enemy,"Dragons plant no trees,FIRE AND BLOOD"

Do you think that was George's plan if he continued writing TWOW?one would take the right lesson and become more compromising and honorable?while the other take the wrong lesson and decide that Violance is the anwser either becoming too Cruel(Like Tywin Lannister or Maegor the Cruel) or Outright Mad

Both Jon and Daenerys's ruling arcs in ADWD are parallels to each other,They rule The Night Watch/Mereen they do many bad decisions,it ends up backfiring in their face

The only difference is what got them killed/Overthrown,Jon didn't compromise,Picked a "My way or the highway",Hid many things from his own men who slowly started to hate him more in more and decided to desert the Night Watch to save who he thinks is Arya,He made the mistake to become too hated and never compromise,Broke literally all his vows and got executed for it.Meanwhile Dany she was compromising with the Mereneese and it did led to peace,But it also caused that many viewed her compromise as a sign of Weakness.And things ended up backfiring so she decides to follow "Fire and Blood" and unleash her fury on the world that rejected her.

We know that GRRM endorsed the Mereneese Blot which pretty much state that Dany should have continued compromising And that her stopping And Going "Fire and Blood" is selfish and Evil and is locking herself in the Bad Ending.We also know that GRRM told D&D about the plot points and that despite the terrible execution they followed the Broad Stokes given to them.

So could it possibly that the plan was for Jon to take the right lesson and Dany the wrong lesson.Jon post Resurrection would then become more honorable,Acting more like Ned Stark 2.0,He will bring justice to the Boltons by swinging the sword and follow more honor all the while compromising with his enemies to achieve peace

Meanwhile Dany she would think that violance is the easy anwser and unleash it on anyone who oppose her as it the only way it get results,To the point that her dynamic with her advisors(Jorah atleast) get reversed with them telling her to control her worst impulses,She will also stop caring about "Home" and "Family" and the "House with the Red Door",The Important thing is to get The Iron throne and SHE WILL GET IT!No matter the method.And if anyone oppose her or try to stop her from getting her throne,They are her enemy,"Dragons plant no trees,FIRE AND BLOOD"

Do you think that was George's plan if he continued writing TWOW?one would take the right lesson and become more compromising and honorable?while the other take the wrong lesson and decide that Violance is the anwser either becoming too Cruel(Like Tywin Lannister or Maegor the Cruel) or Outright Mad

Many fandoms have their exemple of Double Standards,What are the biggest exemples of double Standards in the ASOIAF fandom according to you?and Which ones are the biggest/most unfair ones in your opinion?

Excluding R+L=J and TWOW never releasing.What theories you'v just came to accept that they are inevitable and that they will happen?for me it's those

1-The Mad Queen:There is a good reason most believe it's inevitable and when we think about it,it's got quite implied and forshadowed,between her entire arc and it Ending in ADWD,How power corrupt....Only question is if Dany will end up taking the Maegor the Cruel route or the Aerys the Mad Route

2-Targjoy(Dany x Euron/Dany x Victarion):Again a lot of hints and forshadowing and seems to have been plan,Also a way to continue Dany's downfall arc by having her have a genuinely awful Husband,THOU prophecies are a forshadowing,Not helping that both characters have similarities to Dany's loves,also the similarities to Maegor's Black Brides which was introduced later.Only question is if it's will be Euron or Victarion(most likely Euron)

3-Tyrion Targaryen:It's simply have a lot of forshadowing especially in the early books,Only question is if it's outright confirmed or just heavily implied

4-"Bloodraven being behind X or Y event and if not him then it's time travelling Bran",It's sounds very Martinian that there is a Shadow Player in the game of thrones that have been winning all along while the other characters are pawns

In GRRM's original outline,Jon Snow and Bran Stark end up becoming Arch-enemies,a conflict between Half-siblings(Well cousins when we take R+L=J into acount but you know what I mean)does that remind you of a certain conflict in the lore?

I theorize that the Original outline were Jon and Bran fight ended up becoming the basis for the Blackfyre rebellions with Jon in that outline Serving as the basis for both Daemon Blackfyre and Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers while Bran serving as the basis for Daeron "The Good" Targaryen and Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers

And another Theory of mine I think that both that outline and the Blackfyre rebellions would also be the basis on a potential conflict between Jon Snow and Young Griff,When we think about it Young Griff have a lot of reasons to hate Jon and a conflict between the two would have a lot of irony and would be a subversion of the Classic "Bastard vs Trueborn" conflicts which are repeated in stories.Especially if it's Aegon who start the conflict,And especially if FAegon is a Blackfyre pretender making the conflict double ironic

A lot of time has passed,And the perception of many characters by the fandom ended up changing,either they became more liked,Or became more hated.So I wonder which character do you think the way they were perceived by the fandom changed?

The biggest exemple in term of perception change is Rhaegar Targaryen,in the past he was seen as one of the few good Targaryens and pretty much the Big Good of the setting,Now he have quite a huge hatedom,and is seen as a prophecy-obsessed idiot that caused his house's downfall,And a cheater who abondonned his wife and children to their deaths for a teenager.

Another example is Tywin Lannister. In the past, he was pretty much a huge fan-favorite for his pragmatism,with many arguing that he is the one who deserves the Iron Throne,Now he is seen as just an angry old man,Who is his own biggest enemy by being too sadistic for his own good and with his decisions and plans like the Red Wedding while good on the short term are horrible on the Long Term,And who caused his own downfall and messed up his own legacy by being a horrible father to his children and alienating what could have been his perfect heir

During the Dance of the Dragons House Velaryon supported Rhaenyra.Exept that it's was an "All Take an no gives" relationship between them,In the end the head of the House Corlys's allegiance to House Targaryen ended up costing him His wife,his son,and His daughter.also His island got pillaged,His castle got sacked and Rhaenyra ended up turning on him which ended up in making him betray her,After switching to the Greens he ended up betraying Aegon II too,And got rewarded by the Starks making him "Face justice" for being a Kingslayer and Kinslayer,Only getting saved by Alyssanne Blackwood promising to marry Cregan Stark,In the end Corlys lived and is remembered fondly but House Velaryon ended up becoming a shadow of it former self

Jon, if he does get resurrected and become the king,He will have to deal with The North being at it weakest and worst and The Others coming.

Only two options are there either:1-he join Young Griff who is theorized to be adored by most if not all the realm for getting rid of Cersei,Or 2-picking the easy option and bending the knee to Daenerys instead who despite having the most Evil men and All the North's enemies on her side(Ironborne,Dothraki,Jorah Mormont,Exiles,Ironborne,Criminals,Dothraki,Fire Priests,Dothraki,Ironborne,Enuchs,Lannisters(Tyrion)....) have Dragons which could make a huge difference.

It's theorized he will bend the knee to Daenerys, who, despite being less popular than Young Griff,and is quite hated in Westeros for her actions in Essos have Dragons(it's also have a lot of forshadowing)

And you ask me how is that related to Corlys?Well the theory is that just like with House Velaryon,The North will Help Dany and her side commit atrocities in the countinent to get to the Iron Throne,Jon will take the heat from the Northmen and his family who will see him as nothing more than a doormat who sold their homeland to their enemies,It's culminate in Her destroying King's Landing which will be the one atrocity too many for Jon who will kill her.

Then just like Corlys he will be imprisoned by the Starks to "face Justice" since Kinslaying and Queenslaying is no joke,but compared to Corlys,Jon will be exiled to the far North being remembered as the definition of Bastard,a sellout,traitor,And one of the worst people in Westeros,But House Stark on the other hand would have reached the Greatest Peaks becoming the New Ruling House of the Seven Kingdoms

What do you think of the possible parallel between these characters and what end up happening to them?

I have noticed that many seems to agree that the Peace Dany achieved at first was enough and that her deciding to fight the Slavers and stopping Compromising is a slippery slop and "Violance is a cycle first it's start with Evil people then it's moves to the innocents"

The argument is that "George is a liberal" and follow the philosophy that "extremism no matter how just it is is a vice and moderation in the pursuit of justice is a virtue". Wanting to make the world a better place actually makes you just as bad as the actively malicious people maintaining slavery.With Tywin and Dany and the Starks representing it well,The Books are a critique of both Tywin's short sighted pramatism and Daenerys' unbending idealism. The Starks would then fall somewhere in the middle, the message being that while ideals such as honor, equality, and justice are worth pursuing, one has to be realistic and sensible about it.

The point of the "Slaver's Bay conflict" then isn't that Dany is violent towards the slavers, therefore she's going to be violent against the Westerosi.Daenerys according to that argument serves as a warning of how easy it to miss that someone is a tyrant when their brutality is being used against people who actually deserve it(Like Frank Herbert did with Paul Atreides in Dune and his comparison to him and JFK). The issue is that once a tyrant has taken power, the people who put him there have no control over who he chooses to go against then.

In the first book, Drogo enslaves the Lhazareen to fund his invasion plan. Dany doesn't have a choice in the matter, but she does justify it. In her mind, this is worth it. And that not implying that that she's a hypocrite for later taking a stance against slavery, but It's considered clue she thinks the people who stole her throne are at least as bad as the slavers and is used as proof on her entiltement issues that will show when she will face FAegon(That along with prophecy obsession)

Daenerys also doesn't really operate within any legal framework. Her power stems from dragons, unsullied, and eventually a horde of Dothraki and possibly Ironborne and Fire Priests, all devoted to her personally. This is different from the Starks or any Westerosi lord, who rule within certain constraints.

Moreover, Daenerys is just a far more selfish righteous person than Jon is for exemple. She is less interested in achieving results, and more interested in achieving a kind of poetic justice. Consider the time she crucified the same number of slave masters as children in ASOS. It's an arbitrary number, and for all we know more slave masters could have been involved than those punished.

And it's not just that Dany is more violent. There are cases where It could be argued she should have been more ruthless. In ADWD, she inexplicably tells the Green Grace that she would never harm the hostages, leading to the SOTH murders starting all over again. Compare that to Jon, who makes a threat to Tormund and IMO, intends on keeping it. This seems more cruel on the surface, but it actually succeeds in keeping the peace.

The point is Daenerys is naive, idealistic, self-righteous to a fault, and more interested in exterminating her enemies than actually helping the people they're oppressing. In a lot of ways she is a villain on the other extreme of Tywin who represent absolute Pragmatism

Ned,Robb and Jon on the other hand represent the middle ground Jon for exemple is a lot more pragmatic. At times he is even ruthless, but it's always as a means to an end. But he's also progressive, and he's willing to enact social change. The difference is that when he does it he takes the proper time to plan it and prepare for it (not perfectly, but more so than Dany). Dany on the other hand had no plan for the freed slaves, so much so that some of them begged her to sell themselves back to slavery, while half of them died on the walls outside Meereen because she hadn't prepared any way to feed, house, or tend to them.

So A girl with good ideals worth pursuing, but a terrible Queen. A ruler who can conquer cities, but has zero interest in ruling during peace time. Her character is a warning against the worship of Messiah figures.compared to Tywin Lannister who again represent absolute pragmatism,And the system is perfect because he thrive in it and is a way he could assure his legacy,Then comes the Starks as a middle ground

When GRRM talked about Aragon \[here\](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2014/04/grrm-asks-what-was-aragorns-tax-policy/), his tax policy, and his "genocide" against orcs, another barbaric civilization,the argument is that he wrote Dany as foil for this type of hero, a realistic look at how Messiah figures would fare in a less fantastical setting.

Another side even argue that George's message that it was best she just ignored the whole slavery thing.It's all so we can tell ourselves that doing nothing is not only smart and intelligent, it's also the kindest thing we could do. Our apathy is virtue.

So it's ends with a sort of appeal to a general sense of complexity as to why we must keep the status quo:We have Tywin's Conservativism which leans to world "The world is unfair, and it's great because it benefits me, and if it doesn't then it should do." Against Dany's "The World is unfair and something must be done with it,With Fire and Blood" and finally the Starks "The world is unfair, and that's bad, but also there's the chance doing anything about it might just make it worse, But with compromise and being noble in the Long Term things will fix themselves" or "The world is unfair, and that's bad, but also there's the chance doing anything about it might just make it worse,just wring our hands about bad it is. Anyone who thinks they *can* change it is just a naive idiot. We're smart, because we *know* it's all unfixable."

Do you agree that was really GRRM's message to the Essos arc?That the solution that Dany must have taken was compromising even more?and by stopping Compromising and taking the "Fire and Blood" she just locked herself in the Bad Ending and took the wrong lesson?

and how do you think the Starks would have handled "The Slaver's Bay conflict" if they were in Dany's place?Would Jon,Robb,Ned,Bran,Sansa,Catelyn and Arya really either ignore it or take "The moderate route"?

I have noticed that many seems to agree that the Peace Dany achieved at first was enough and that her deciding to fight the Slavers and stopping Compromising is a slippery slop and "Violance is a cycle first it's start with Evil people then it's moves to the innocents"

The argument is that "George is a liberal" and follow the philosophy that "extremism no matter how just it is is a vice and moderation in the pursuit of justice is a virtue". Wanting to make the world a better place actually makes you just as bad as the actively malicious people maintaining slavery.With Tywin and Dany and the Starks representing it well,The Books are a critique of both Tywin's short sighted pramatism and Daenerys' unbending idealism. The Starks would then fall somewhere in the middle, the message being that while ideals such as honor, equality, and justice are worth pursuing, one has to be realistic and sensible about it.

The point of the "Slaver's Bay conflict" then isn't that Dany is violent towards the slavers, therefore she's going to be violent against the Westerosi.Daenerys according to that argument serves as a warning of how easy it to miss that someone is a tyrant when their brutality is being used against people who actually deserve it(Like Frank Herbert did with Paul Atreides in Dune and his comparison to him and JFK). The issue is that once a tyrant has taken power, the people who put him there have no control over who he chooses to go against then.

In the first book, Drogo enslaves the Lhazareen to fund his invasion plan. Dany doesn't have a choice in the matter, but she does justify it. In her mind, this is worth it. And that not implying that that she's a hypocrite for later taking a stance against slavery, but It's considered clue she thinks the people who stole her throne are at least as bad as the slavers and is used as proof on her entiltement issues that will show when she will face FAegon(That along with prophecy obsession)

Daenerys also doesn't really operate within any legal framework. Her power stems from dragons, unsullied, and eventually a horde of Dothraki and possibly Ironborne and Fire Priests, all devoted to her personally. This is different from the Starks or any Westerosi lord, who rule within certain constraints.

Moreover, Daenerys is just a far more selfish righteous person than Jon is for exemple. She is less interested in achieving results, and more interested in achieving a kind of poetic justice. Consider the time she crucified the same number of slave masters as children in ASOS. It's an arbitrary number, and for all we know more slave masters could have been involved than those punished.

And it's not just that Dany is more violent. There are cases where It could be argued she should have been more ruthless. In ADWD, she inexplicably tells the Green Grace that she would never harm the hostages, leading to the SOTH murders starting all over again. Compare that to Jon, who makes a threat to Tormund and IMO, intends on keeping it. This seems more cruel on the surface, but it actually succeeds in keeping the peace.

The point is Daenerys is naive, idealistic, self-righteous to a fault, and more interested in exterminating her enemies than actually helping the people they're oppressing. In a lot of ways she is a villain on the other extreme of Tywin who represent absolute Pragmatism

Ned,Robb and Jon on the other hand represent the middle ground Jon for exemple is a lot more pragmatic. At times he is even ruthless, but it's always as a means to an end. But he's also progressive, and he's willing to enact social change. The difference is that when he does it he takes the proper time to plan it and prepare for it (not perfectly, but more so than Dany). Dany on the other hand had no plan for the freed slaves, so much so that some of them begged her to sell themselves back to slavery, while half of them died on the walls outside Meereen because she hadn't prepared any way to feed, house, or tend to them.

So A girl with good ideals worth pursuing, but a terrible Queen. A ruler who can conquer cities, but has zero interest in ruling during peace time. Her character is a warning against the worship of Messiah figures.compared to Tywin Lannister who again represent absolute pragmatism,And the system is perfect because he thrive in it and is a way he could assure his legacy,Then comes the Starks as a middle ground

When GRRM talked about Aragon [here](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2014/04/grrm-asks-what-was-aragorns-tax-policy/), his tax policy, and his "genocide" against orcs, another barbaric civilization,the argument is that he wrote Dany as foil for this type of hero, a realistic look at how Messiah figures would fare in a less fantastical setting.

Another side even argue that George's message that it was best she just ignored the whole slavery thing.It's all so we can tell ourselves that doing nothing is not only smart and intelligent, it's also the kindest thing we could do. Our apathy is virtue.

So it's ends with a sort of appeal to a general sense of complexity as to why we must keep the status quo:We have Tywin's Conservativism which leans to world "The world is unfair, and it's great because it benefits me, and if it doesn't then it should do." Against Dany's "The World is unfair and something must be done with it,With Fire and Blood" and finally the Starks "The world is unfair, and that's bad, but also there's the chance doing anything about it might just make it worse, But with compromise and being noble in the Long Term things will fix themselves" or "The world is unfair, and that's bad, but also there's the chance doing anything about it might just make it worse,just wring our hands about bad it is. Anyone who thinks they \*can\* change it is just a naive idiot. We're smart, because we \*know\* it's all unfixable."

Do you agree that was really GRRM's message to the Essos arc?That the solution that Dany must have taken was compromising even more?and by stopping Compromising and taking the "Fire and Blood" she just locked herself in the Bad Ending and took the wrong lesson?and how do you think the Starks would have handled "The Slaver's Bay conflict" if they were in Dany's place?Would Jon,Robb,Ned,Bran,Sansa,Catelyn and Arya really either ignore it or take "The moderate route"?

Excluding R+L=J and TWOW never releasing.What theories you'v just came to accept that they are inevitable and that they will happen?for me it's those

1-The Mad Queen:There is a good reason most believe it's inevitable and when we think about it,it's got quite implied and forshadowed,between her entire arc and it Ending in ADWD,How power corrupt....Only question is if Dany will end up taking the Maegor the Cruel route or the Aerys the Mad Route

2-Targjoy(Dany x Euron/Dany x Victarion):Again a lot of hints and forshadowing and seems to have been plan,Also a way to continue Dany's downfall arc by having her have a genuinely awful Husband,THOU prophecies are a forshadowing,Not helping that both characters have similarities to Dany's loves,also the similarities to Maegor's Black Brides which was introduced later.Only question is if it's will be Euron or Victarion(most likely Euron)

3-Tyrion Targaryen:It's simply have a lot of forshadowing especially in the early books,Only question is if it's outright confirmed or just heavily implied

Since TWOW will never release I wonder about a certain scenario

Most agree that FAegon will have the support of the Faith and most of the Seven Kingdoms exept the North that would have bent the knee to Daenerys(And Euron/Victarion if he is her husband like most theorize)

I wonder what would be the Other Starks and the Rest of the Northern houses think about submitting to Daenerys?who have an already terrible reputation because of her atrocities in Essos and who is as Entilted and Violant as ever after ADWD whose forces are composed of all the North's enemies from Ironborne,Dothraki,Lannisters(Tyrion)and traitors like Jorah Mormont,And if Jon got resurrected and is the King what would be their opinion about his submission and "selling out"?(And if he is her paramour like some theorize)

During the Dance of the Dragons House Velaryon supported Rhaenyra.Exept that it's was an "All Take an no gives" relationship between them,In the end the head of the House Corlys's allegiance to House Targaryen ended up costing him His wife,his son,His daughter and all his three STRONG GrandchildrenHis island got pillaged,His castle sacked and Rhaenyra ended up turning on him which ended up in making him betray her,After switching to the Greens he ended up betraying Aegon II too,And got rewarded by the Starks making him "Face justice" for being a Kingslayer and Kinslayer,Only getting saved by Alyssanne Blackwood promising to marry Cregan Stark,In the end Corlys lived and is remembered fondly but House Velaryon ended up becoming a shadow of it former self

Jon if he does get resurrected and become the king,He will have to deal with The North being at it weakest and worst,Only option to fight the Others is bending the knee to Daenerys who have Dragons and in doing so bending the knee to all the enemies of the North from Dothraki,Ironborne,fire priests,Lannisters(Tyrion)and Jorah Mormont,And by that making an enemy of the whole countinent who is supporting Young Griff.There is a lot of forshadowing for the North bending the knee to Dany.

And you ask me how is that related to Corlys?Well the theory is that just like with House Velaryon,The North will be in an "All Take and no give" relationship with Dany,Helping her and her side commit atrocities in the countinent to get to the Iron Throne,Jon will take the heat from the Northmen and his family who will see him as nothing more than a doormat who sold their homeland to their enemies(and if Dany is married to Euron or Victarion also will be joked as her bed-warmer)All while being trapped in an unequal relationship with Dany,It's culminate in Her destroying King's Landing which will be the one atrocity too many for Jon who will kill her.

Then just like Corlys he will be imprisoned by the Starks to "face Justice" since Kinslaying and Queenslaying is no joke,but compared to Corlys,there will be no Alysanne,Jon will be exiled to the far North being remembered as the definition of Bastard,a sellout,traitor,And one of the worst people in Westeros,But House Stark on the Other hand would have reached the Greatest Peaks becoming the New Ruling House of the Seven Kingdoms.

What do you think of that parallel of this two characters?

​

Since TWOW will never release something that I have always bothered me

In a scenario were he get resurrected.Why would Jon side with Daenerys Over FAegon who is beloved by all(or most) and dosen't have any hints of madness and being a despot?(Aside from "She have dragons" and "it's works for Drama's sake")

From what I have noticed Many agree that Jon bend the knee to Dany,Ending in an unequal relationship with her,Get his hand forced into helping her fight all of the countinent

Exept from when we think about it Aside from "dragons",There is literally no reason to side with Dany and every reason to side with Young Griff:

-Daenerys have a terrible reputation and Is seen as a Tyrant by most and IS a Dothraki who are pure evil and seen as pure evil by most and are then enemies of the North.While Young Griff many agree will have a great reputation and be beloved by most

-Daenerys is committing atrocity after atrocity on Essos on Slavers(and innocents getting caught in the crossfire)wouldn't the crucifixion scene,the use of torture and the profiting of slavery from taxes,The Burning of cities,Genocide,and the fact that she left Essos after all of this would be a massive red flag to Jon?Meanwhile FAegon is commiting atrocities on Cersei's forces and Cersei is an enemy of the North which make it good

-Daenerys have all the enemies of the North on her side from Ironborne,Lannisters(Tyrion),Jorah Mormont,Dothraki,Bandits,Exiles,Enuches,and Fire priests whom Jon know well thanks to Stannis and Melisandre,Even worse if she is married to Euron Greyjoy like many theorize.Meanwhile FAegon is an enemy of the Lannisters and dosen't have any Ironborne

-Dany may have dragons but FAegon have dragon killers like the Dornish and wathever the Golden Company have

-Dany hate House Stark and see them as "dogs" meanwhile FAegon probably dosen't even seem to know about House Stark

-Dany is prophecy obsessed and paranoiac because of it,And have a messiah complex(Especially once she meet the Fire priests)and a lot of entiltement issues,Meanwhile FAegon dosen't even know anything about prophecies

-Dany have violant impulses and her entire arc in ADWD is about letting those Violant impulses talk by taking "Fire and blood" Not caring about harming innocents as long as it benefits her,Meanwhile FAegon dosen't have any violant impulses

\-Dany already hate FAegon over the pettiest reasons for having a better claim and being more beloved than her,She will hate Jon for the same or something as petty,Atleast with FAegon he could play the "Half-brother" card if it's means getting the north

So I really wonder why would Jon side with Dany over FAegon?(Aside from dragons)And how would he not see the red flag meanwhile most of the countinent and HIS SIBLINGS/COUSINS would see how Dany is a bad choice?

​

An argument that I see get repeated over and over again that the North is one of the weakest regions and the players in the setting and that all the antagonists armies could easily destroy the Northern army,And that after the Boltons deffeat(in the alternative universe were TWOW would release of course)they will be even weaker that the only option will be bending the knee and pulling a Tohren the Kneeler to one of the "antagonist" rulers(and what choices they are.between Cersei,Young Griff,Euron,Littlefinger and Dany)

The Iron Fleet have total control of the sea,The Vale have the Knights that are quite strong,The Reach have the Number advantage and are walking cheat code,The Iron Throne Cersei may be crazy but her forces aren't to be underestimated,Dorne who managed to give a hard time to Targaryens while they literally had dragons.the Golden Company...no explanation required and then there is Daenerys whom aside from the dragons have the Dothraki that are built different and can and will easily destroy anything and the Unsullied that are walking war machines add to that the Rhllor cultists,Enuchs and mercenaries that will join later

Meanwhile, the North has....their usual army,the fleet House Manderly is working on,Wildlings,Giants,The Night Watch(that just a theory of mine but personally I think that the Old Watch as an organization will be gone with there being a new one that is a merge between the Old Watch and the Wildlings(Black Company?Wild Hunt?...or something like that)and that will be more of a militia similar to the Golden Company)Melisandre if Jon get really resurrected and she start believing he is more The Chosen one and switch sides,Wathever of Stannis's forces Melisandre may get if Stannis bite it.Riverlands houses if and IF Edmure manage to make it out and the Freys are dealt with or without Edmure making it out. Arya returns and decides to give the Riverlands to the North,The Vale Knights IF Sansa manage to deal with Littlefinger and is either okay with whoever is the King of the North or if She herself is Queen

I wonder is the Northern forces(and in said forces there is many IFs)enough to give a hard time the other armies and powerhouses like the Iron fleet and the Reach and (if we exclude dragons,because with dragons the only option is a Field of fire 2.0.so Only the Dothraki and Unsullied and the exiles and bandits)Dany's forces?or are they really weak and the only option is submission and kneeling?

(Thanks for u/flippy123x,u/SillyPersonality5767,u/bigste98,u/HanSoloHeadBeg for their help)

Mad or Vilain Dany is quite a controversial theory,But there was a good reason it's was one of the most popular theories there is simply many hints in the books about it in the text

>The Dothraki were muttering and giving her strange sideways looks from the corners of their dark almond eyes. They thought her mad, Dany realized. Perhaps she was. She would know soon enough. If I look back I am lost.

>"I have a gift for you as well." She slammed the chest shut. "Three days. On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. All of them. Every man, woman, and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters' possessions, as payment for their years of servitude. When all the slaves have departed, you will open your gates and allow my Unsullied to enter and search your city, to make certain none remain in bondage. If you do this, Yunkai will not be burned or plundered, and none of your people shall be molested. The Wise Masters will have the peace they desire, and will have proved themselves wise indeed. What say you?" "I say, you are mad." Am I?" Dany shrugged, and said, "Dracarys."

>Dany felt shabby and barbaric as she rode past them in her lionskin robe with black Drogon on one shoulder. Her Dothraki called the Qartheen "Milk Men" for their paleness, and Khal Drogo had dreamed of the day when he might sack the great cities of the east. She glanced at her bloodriders, their dark almond-shaped eyes giving no hint of their thoughts. Is it only the plunder they see? she wondered. How savage we must seem to these Qartheen.

And the biggest one in A Game of thrones:

>As she climbed down off the pyre, she noticed Mirri Maz Duur watching her. "You are mad," the godswife said hoarsely. "Is it so far from madness to wisdom?" Dany asked. "Ser Jorah, take this maegi and bind her to the pyre." "To the … my queen, no, hear me …" "Do as I say." Still he hesitated, until her anger flared. "You swore to obey me, whatever might come. Rakharo, help him."

The scene in ADWD, Chapter 11 with the wineshop owner and his daugthers show us things quite well

>Grey Worm answered. “Your servants were set upon as they walked the bricks of Meereen to keep Your Grace’s peace. All were well armed, with spears and shields and short swords. Two by two they walked, and two by two they died. Your servants Black Fist and Cetherys were slain by crossbow bolts in Mazdhan’s Maze. Your servants Mossador and Duran were crushed by falling stones beneath the river wall. Your servants Eladon Goldenhair and Loyal Spear were poisoned at a wineshop where they were accustomed to stop each night upon their rounds” Mossador. Dany made a fist.** Missandei and her brothers had been taken from their home on Naath by raiders from the Basilisk Isles and sold into slavery in Astapor. Young as she was, Missandei had shown such a gift for tongues that the Good Masters had made a scribe of her. Mossador and Marselen had not been so fortunate. They had been gelded and made into Unsullied. “Have any of the murderers been captured?”

“**Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters.** They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”

“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

There have been several murders. Two pairs of Dany's guys were ambushed and murdered on the streets, and one pair was poisoned in a wineshop where they stop every night during their rounds.

Dany's guards have not been able to locate any potential witnesses or possible suspects other than the wineshop's owner and his daughters, she wants them all merely questioned (they might be innocent after all).

>“Three freedmen, murdered in their homes,” the Shavepate said. “A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her.”

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany’s councils. **“We have no captives but this wineseller?”**

Three more murders, one of them a servant Dany cared about, now it's personal. But there are zero leads other than the wineseller and his daugthers.

>“None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon.”

*Mercy*, thought Dany. *They will have the dragon’s mercy*. **“Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”**

The only thing that has changed between Dany wanting the guy questioned and wanting to have him tortured, is that she got the news of another completely unrelated murder in-between those two decisions, but one that made her furious.

All the killings are seemingly random attacks across the city where opportunities presented themselves at night, Dany has not been able to locate a single viable suspect.

The two who were poisoned went to the shop every single night as part of their routine, if anything there is nothing pointing towards the wineseller at all other than the fact that those two really liked his shop and that he had the misfortune of Dany coming up completely empty otherwise.

>**“I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him.”**

**“Do as you think best, but bring me names.” Her fury was a fire in her belly.**

Instead, Skahaz goes MUCH further, he now wants to torture the man's daugthers instead while he is forced to watch. And Dany agrees, she literally tells him to do whatever he wants, as long as he brings her names.

There is no reason to believe the man is involved, and Dany just ordered unlimited torture against his daugthers to get names he 99% doesn't even know.

We don't even know how many daugthers or how old any of them actually are.

>My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.” “If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. **Give me your leave** to put Hizdahr to the question, **and I will bring you a confession**.” **“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”** “Your Radiance—” “No, I said.” the crucifixion of slavers as well. Shows she has a tendency to see red and will make choices that get people hurt before calming down. Theres a later passage when danaerys sees the slavers on the cross and it turns her stomach iirc. This incident on its own isnt enough to point to her ‘going mad’, but when paired with her agreeing to have the winesellers daughters tortured a pattern starts to emerge.

Also it's easy to imagine that bringing eunuchs, dothraki,The freaking Iron Fleet and essosi mercenaries to westeros she will lose the propaganda war. If her enemies treat her harshly the ground is laid for her to overreact.

A dance with dragons has danaerys at odds with herself. Shes the descendant of a great conqueror of aegon I, but shes also very empathetic to the plight of the slaves in essos. She wants peace in mereen but finds the compromises hard to stomach. the ending of dance shows that she will start to pivot from peace and compromise and let her fury off the leash.

‘Her mask is made of starlight. "Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"’

She keeps believing the word of someone whos feuling her paranoia by telling her not to trust anyone without telling her who. Shes also telling her to be more like her dragons and listen to the motto of her house. ‘Fire and Blood’ ‘Dragons plant no trees’

‘

"I am the blood of the dragon," she told the grass, aloud.

Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was ... her name ..." Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.’

Her not remembering the name of an innocent who died because of her dragons could suggest shes going to charge towards conquest and be held back less by compassion in the future. ‘The grass’ could be quaithe or danys own self conscious thoughts, but ‘you turned against your children’ is flawed. Chaining dragons away after they killed an innocent girl was the morally right thing to do.

‘"I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.’

‘Planting trees’ is subtext for enjoying the prosperity that peacetime brings, ‘dragons plant no trees’ is ominous to say the least and suggests she will be far more ruthless in her pursuit of her goals in the future taking two routes either the one of Aerys the Mad where it's killing out of insanity or Maegor the Cruel/Rheaenyra Maegor with teats/Aegon the Usurper/Aemond One-Eye were it's will be killing out of sheer pettiness

And let's don't forget the mirror with the setting's other Mad Queen:Cersei Lannister

They are both women trying to gain respect as leaders. Their experiences being either underestimated or disregarded due to gender motivate them to seek power. Both are also haunted by visions of their fates.   

The differences are that Cersei seems inherently cruel since childhood while Dany will become more cruel through her experiences. Also Dany is 20 years younger than Cersei, so who’s to say in 20 years Dany would end up like Cersei. 

Over-suspicion due to perceived inevitability is also the main similarity. Cersei is overly-suspicious because she sees her children’s deaths and her own as inevitable due to Maggy the Frog’s prophecy. So she mistrusts almost everyone.

Dany is the same, the prophecy of the “three treasons” making her wary of everyone around her.

And Their stories are very similar, we are just seeing Dany's unfold in realtime, whereas Cersei shows us the long term outcome.

Again Dany, right now, is not like Cersei, but Cersei has also had a good 20ish years to fester to the point of the crazy woman we now see. Both were about 13 when they meet a witch who tells them a prophecy. Over the course of ADWD, we see the prophecies Dany has been told coming to the forefront of her mind a lot more often, she just isn't yet at the point of actively trying to prevent it from happening.

Both killed their brutish, warrior husband.

Both have 3 kids that aren't true born.

Both have two brothers.

Both trying to reclaim their father's legacy.

Both like fire.

Both undergo a rebirth walk at the end of ADWD.

Both are bald at the end of ADWD.

There is simply a pattern to see,Is having two Mad Queens(Or two cruel queens,Like there other parallel Rhaenyra) reductive?Yes.is it George's plan by making them similar to each other?also yes

Also She has been told all her life that the throne was stolen from her family and that it is her birthright. She believes that it's her throne. She won't take it well that some won't accept her after travelling across the known world,a lot of people will burn for not loving her

As for what she of jon snow and aegon?again her whole identity comes from believing she is the rightful heir to the iron throne, aegon having it by the time she gets there will really challenge that idea. Rhaegars alleged son would have a far better claim than his younger sister, which would turn her into a usurper rather than a lawful monarch.

Theres also a good chance that aegon will have the faith on his side and win over the lords, whereas dany is a women who already has a foul reptuation from the reports that have trickled back to westeros from slavers bay. As well as the aforementioned dothraki and eunuchs. Aegon will be seen as the rightful king defending the realm from a foreign tyrant bringing barbarians to their shores. This will certainly cause alot of internal conflict for someone who has longed to have a family.

Jon, as her bastard nephew wouldnt threaten her claim so there relationship won't be as difficult but will be unequal af,And it's will cause many problems between Jon and the Northmen as he is bending the knee to a foreign invader and one of the most hated rulers,And a Targaryen whom the Northmen hate more than anyone in the world But if Rhaegar really made him his heir as some theorize then she may hate him even more than she will hate FAegon.even more if he is actually liked and he is not,her reasoning is "Why would this Dog bastard be more liked than me"?it's would also mean that Rhaegar forsake her,Viserys,Their mother,her sister-in law, and nephews for him and Lyanna.and that when her and family desperately needed the Kingsguard they were way more occupied guarding the "Rightful heir" rather than saving Elia,Rhaenys and Aegon who were trapped in King's landing at the mercy of the Mad King as hostages which resulted in their deaths or guarding her mother and Viserys and helping them stay safe which probably resulted in Rhaella's death and her and Viserys living in a life poverty and misery.And that while she was living in poverty and misery and getting abused by Viserys,"The Rightful heir" was living his best life in Winterfell, raised as a noble.And that the Throne she worked years of working to get,assembling armies and doing the impossible she end up losing it in the worst way possible to the "Rightful heir" because she is a woman,And said Rightful heir is beloved by all with everyone supporting him and the Smallfolk wanting him.Even worse if she end up losing some of her loved ones like one of her dragons or Missandei or Quentyn(if he survives and get bond to one of her dragons)Or is married to Victarion(or Euron who is more likely possibly)who may end up motivating her more to deal with Jon and make her hate him more,And her other Advisers like Jorah who are Evil jerks and will keep convincing her to deal with the "Rightful heir" and take what hers and convince her that she have every right to be as entilted as possibleIt's ends up resulting her in seeing Jon not as family or her love but just as "The Rightful heir" Who exist only ruin her life and as the Aegon II to her Rhaenyra,The Daemon Blackfyre to her Daeron II,the Robert to her Aerys.and it's end up in her viewing him as an Usurper supported by Dogs(The Starks)

The Mad Queen/or Maegor with Teats 2.0/Vilain ruthless Dany is a theory with a lot of hints just like R+L=J there is a lot of forshadowing in the books for it to happen

The characters in the book and show are different from each other,And that made me wonder how an interaction would go between them and how would the Book characters react to their Show counterparts?

In my opinion Both Book Tywin and Show Tywin will hate each other and refuse to think that they are the same person

Many agree that Dany is following a path that is leading towards blood, fire and madness. from what I have noticed,and many keep stating that it's was forshadowed and hinted in the books and that it set in stone.

So I wonder,aside from the ending of ADWD were she follows Fire and blood ans the three betrayals prophecy can you please site me the hints and forshadowing of her going crazy or evil(or both)? to understand why this theory is popular?

Something like:

>Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khaleesi."

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye, they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

AGOT Daenerys III

And Out of topic but I also want to know why would she hate finding out about FAegon and Jon being her relatives and it's sited as one of the things that will drive her crazy despite the fact that she was always shown hating being the Last Targaryen and wanting a family/home?and that just in ADWD she was musing about Aegon being alive and in the Iron throne

And how will Jon Snow(if he get resurrected and they meet of course)will not notice the red flag in her?