I've been thinking a lot more about my type recently.

// Ohh god, this is really fucking long. I'm kind of scared. Everything in quotes right below this are things that I've determined to be largely side tangents in a giant rant that I wrote before realizing it was completely irrelevant to what I actually wanted to say, so I would skim those parts.

>Part of it has to do with considering what the fact that I've never been able to comfortably settle on a type---despite having spent a somewhat absurd amount of time reading type descriptions & theory and what I hope is having earned a somewhat capable use of said theory in the process, I'm embarrassed---indicates about my type.

>Typically, the consensus seems to be "constant shifting = EIE," because of something about extraverted dynamic rationals. I've considered that-- but I'm somewhat unsure about whether my type shifting is really something like the difficulty that I assume a dynamic type would have mapping a static type description onto a self-perceived dynamic personality process, as it is reading a static type description and feeling completely seen and understood for about the first ten hours and then believing fully that "I am x type" and living life for weeks under the guise of being that type to the point where I show other people Socionics or at least a type description and they fully agree "yes you are x type" until I move into a different setting and think totally differently.

>That sounds exhausting, and to some degree it is, but at this point it's strangely adaptive, to the point where I have been reading about these types and their behaviors & what situations they are strong in, and mimicking the Wikisocion description of their behaviors when I'm in a situation that a certain type would do well in. It weirdly, directly correlates to things like my work ethic: if I believe I'm an LIE I'm capable of putting in absurd amounts of time into work and barely sleeping, and then once I believe I'm something like an ILE I get incredibly lazy.

>Seriously--this is quite bad for me right now, because I spent the last month convinced I was an LIE and applying to like a dozen things while completing my internship and eating takeout pizza with feta cheese & spinach & mushrooms that I would never normally eat but decided to because I googled "food for productivity" 3 meals a day for a month, and then I read the ILE description and now I'm barely getting 2 hours of work done per day and spend my time surfing the internet & spending too much time on reddit instead. I have to start in three new roles like, tomorrow afternoon, so the ILE life can't be sustained I'm afraid.

>I'm nearing the end of that "phase" and perhaps the degree to which it shifts indicates instability in my self-concept, which I wouldn't be too surprised about given my background.

>But anyways, all of this is irrelevant toward the new thoughts that I've had while in the shower today.

I was thinking back to high school. At 19, it's still quite fresh in my mind because I'm still pretty sure I've only accomplished one "significant" thing in my life especially within the achievement orientation of my Asian-American background, and that's getting into a "name brand" college that most people tend to know about (hooray! I'm part of a nameless mass and people attribute my admittedly highly perceived personal worth to an institutional reputation completely independent of me!).

>I still have no idea how this happened, by the way -- in my freshman year I slacked off and got a C in ceramics and a B in art & design 1 and a B in PE because my mentality was "this isn't going to help my career so why bother," and then I somehow decided college was important likely because of the prevailing culture around me and spent sophomore and junior year in an on-and-off frantic hell where I felt I had to "make up" for that early loss, except it turned out I didn't really have to make up for it as much because the school that I got into is in a state which drops your freshman year grades from their GPA calculations, so I assume it just pushed me into flat out overachieving.

But I still feel the way I accomplished this was pretty unusual because uh, I don't think I worked that hard. I think a lot of the most "impressive" things about me were a result of networking, but in a very specific sense of the word.

I always thought I was a thinking type because I never really came off interpersonally in person very well- I was kind of blunt and kinda ignored ppl despite being an archetypal extrovert- and spent a lot of the time on the internet. But I guess re-examining the reasons why, it looks more like-

I went to a public school and most people there were not highly tuned into the admissions process or whatever, and focused mainly on school clubs and local opportunities, because they were normal people and made normal friends. Instead, during high school, between people I met at competitions and camps, I cultivated an extensive network of only the most "impressive" people from basically every state in the country as well as a random network of college students & alumni that I would ask for help for everything from application essay reviews for any program to tutoring, and that would get me in the door to initiatives within their states that were growing.

I think subjectively one of the things that "stood out" by the end of my high school years was that I spent quite a bit of time like kind of swooping into these random growing organizations that one of my friends was involved in, snapping up leadership titles (usually, I would grow it in my state and then use that to get my way into the door for the national team; though I was very good at creating the appearance of having done a lot despite being very lazy, mostly through identifying what KPIs the national staff cared about and then performing Goodhart's Law to an extreme. I would have opened 4 in-state chapters and "engaged 10,000+ people" before I like, did anything basic), and make wow wow big impact. This sounds very SEE, perhaps--

but still, the notable part about it was that all of these relationships were 100% online. I found that incredibly useful to me because I could just drop in and chat somebody up whenever I needed to and ignore them 95% of the time so that the connection we had would have very high ROI!

Maintaining in-person relationships requires you to somewhat fulfill an in-person's friend's expectation of like, going out to lunch, hanging out from time to time-- this is made tremendously easier in college, tbf-- and I didn't wanna do allat to maintain my relationships. I mean, I did a few times, but I just found the online ones easier and the people more useful to me.

Furthermore, online DMs are always entirely 1-on-1, and unlike simply talking to people 1-on-1, talking to 20 people from different states 1-on-1 ensures each of them sees an entirely different side of you that is far more unlikely for them to cross reference.

Whereas when I participate in group settings eg my internship cohort I always feel a persistent need to "thread the needle" so that I'm constantly monitoring the reactions of 7 people and creating reactions that would be amenable to all 7. I'm quite relieved and impressed by the way that I'm able to preserve good connections with all 7 while presenting entirely different self-conceptions to all 7 while leveraging dislike of other members of the 7 with members of the 7 1-on-1 to create camaraderie. TBH, I still feel very proud of the result of that internship as a very delicate balancing act. Probably will feel less proud once this thing I'm co-founding with a guy in the cohort that I told half of the cohort was a total idiot goes public and they judge my ability to identify the capabilities of people-- but I'm pretty sure that can be salvaged if I just tell them he's the marketing guy.

So as a result in school, I was kind of a total loner. I wasn't ever elected to anything. I only talked to the people who sat near me, and I didn't really care about them or like the place were in insofar as I would just talk to them about whatever I was doing in my life (which was almost entirely unrelated to in-school stuff). I would just never talk to them again afterwards. I spent a lot of time talking to people online, but that just looked on the outside like me being on my computer. To be fair, this started mostly after freshman year, when I was actually very sociable and made a lot of connections and dated some people and got absolutely nowhere. So at the end of the day people just kind of saw me as this incredibly reserved smart kid that was your stereotypical Asian nerd (the nature of online relationships also meant I never really maintained my appearance and only pulled out good clothes when I was going to be around people I cared about being around).

The only time this would change was when everybody would be incredibly surprised whenever we traveled to a national/international tournament (DECA/Speech & Debate/FBLA/etc) and all these people who were "popular' and "club officers" were so excited to "network" and then we would be at an airport or a convention center and all these like, DECA state presidents, national champions or people from well-known schools, their coaching staff, would swoop onto our school's little setup and all of the people excited to network would light up at the sight of their idols, idols who proceeded to only talked to me, the club "loner", and all the networkers would all look super jealous and confused (I always thought this was incredibly funny).

Then, for about a few days a year, I would achieve notoriety within my school's little delegation or whatever as the person who got all the comms early from random people who were "in the know," get waves of support and months worth of prep resources from all of their teams & coaching staff as their teams dropped out of some competitions, somehow create mild scandal-y things within my team (my speech & debate coach once made a joke about how I have "nine girlfriends" and then my assistant coach replied with "three at most"), and then we would all go back home and I would be the quiet person who never talked to anyone again. Of course, I found times like this also the times I felt the most alive.

That above routine repeating over and over for three years, it probably fundamentally confused my own self-image regarding things like ethics/logic and also probably poses a real question about what socionics ethics looks like in an Information Age. My life still looks different and I'm more out there now but I'm also unsure how much of my current presentation is drastically altered by being in a location where the surrounding entrepreneurial and thus surrounding period culture in the cities around me is so overwhelmingly dominated by a need to appear "intelligent" and "visionary".

Interested in an answer--I'm in college and I'm curious about this person I met in freshman year a year ago. They're super Fi PolR, but I can't tell which Fi PolR this person is.

Either they're an extremely ambitious ILE who is exceptionally capable of climbing the ranks and has in spite of the stereotypes brought their dozen projects to genuine completion and who competes well, excelling in cutthroat competitive environments, and gotten involved in leading youth political organizations,

Or they're an unusually scattered SLE who, alongside the 12 meaningfully impactful projects they have genuinely created and led to completion (I still feel the need to emphasize this, because the stereotypes paint the ILE as quite like a child that never finishes anything, whereas this person has been extremely shrewd in attaining lofty and impressive goals), also has a graveyard of random intellectual side projects that never had professional value and only seemed to exist for the purpose of his own interest.

Me and another person in my friend group with this person are interested in socionics and genuinely can't differentiate. When we got to know him, we were certain he was an Ne ego because he just seemed so scattered and intellectual. He was always the guy that 'did too much'. While we competed in tournaments, he read through the tournament results of each of our 12 tournaments in years past and learned the names and memorized the standings of literally everybody, and whenever he talked to a veteran competitor he could literally recite the placements they received at over four dozen tournaments over their years competing. He didn't seem to leverage this for competitive value. Of course, he was one of the best at what he did.

That would be impressive if this were a singular kind of thing. But over a year we've watched him undertake so many projects and apply force in making them succeed in so many different fields that now we're quite unsure. One trait we've noticed: he definitely has the sprinting work-in-bursts quality of an EP temperament and spends quite a bit of time demobilized. But the way this manifests isn't not being able to get anything done, but rather "sprinting" once per day for 6 or 8 hours straight, being extremely serious and precise to the point where if you try to distract him he looks like he might eat you alive, before reverting to dumbass frat bro mode. His ability to do sustained work has gotten longer the more we know him.

But also: about a quarter of the time those 6-8 hour sprints come in the form of a random data collection rabbit hole that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that moves him closer to a goal, and seems to just be done cus he feels like it.

It's like he has an endless amount of energy for new initiatives and projects and applications and is constantly iterating even with a success of rate of like 12% which seems to be improving, they're one of the singularly most accomplished people I know at this age.

He can be goofy, much like an alpha quadra ILE. When teaching a class of kindergarteners and elementary & middle schoolers how to debate he named himself "Director of Dihbate" in the zoom and spent the whole class eating while laughing his ass off and derailing the class and the kids compared him to the clown juggling on a unicycle that he drew on the zoom whiteboard while his co-teacher was trying to teach (and failing because he was making her laugh). Actually, he spent class making the kids watch him eat over the camera like a mukbang multiple times.

He's like this a lot.

But when he's serious, he can be deathly serious and almost terrifying with how crudely instrumental he is to other people, and is still an absurdly hard worker. When he has a goal, he's set, and he seems to want to be "on top" and gets incredibly upset if he's outcompeted or loses. He seems to have a preoccupation with being the center of attention in every room, although this is subtle and you don't notice it until you see stunt after stunt after stunt. He doesn't seem that malleable by pressure: when he ran for club president elections, he immediately told the other candidate (and basically everybody else in the club), people that were trying to get him to drop out he was "very set on this" and for a month he organized a campaign vehicle where his spreadsheets and carful voter collection and aggressive messaging to over 100 people at once alienated just about everybody in the club since they felt like they were being used as votes.

He has also consistently gone to the gym for over a year and he's like, pretty built though always on the skinny side.

He aggressively LinkedIn farms and seems to care obsessively that other people should admire his achievements and status. He gets $150/month for food money and he uses part of that for his $70/mo linkedin subscription.

He can go from writing beautiful essays about prestige culture & his racial heritage and preaching inclusivity and community as part of his role as a progressive organizer to both participating & reinforcing that system and saying horrifically racist things.

He seems interesting to us because we're wanting to reconcile the conflicting sides of his character, at once ruthless/shrewd/power-motivated/insanely determined, with an almost childishly innocent side.

An SLE is meant to be an aggressor in socionics, but this person is extremely hesitant in his personal relationships, over intellectualizes everything, and never feels certain enough to take the initiative in declaring he's interested. Although, for some reason he openly sent us his uh, bdsm test results, and he seems very interested in the uh, dominant role in bdsm. Specifically he seems to really like tying people up.

But he's been in a horribly insufferable talking stage for over a year and still hasn't done anything about it.

To what degree can we attribute this to Ti creative trying to compensate for Fi PolR, and to what degree is this evidence of not being an aggressor?

I've tried to find 10 people of each type based on my reading & application of socionics.

A note on methodology: I feel like the list might make some people mad, especially those who prize the concept of peripherality to the point where their mental conceptions of Alphas & Deltas are hillbilly farmer or science people that can never be historically significant. But anybody who's had close proximity to success/institutions of prestige/changemakers will end up realizing there isn't really one type of person that becomes significant.

And-- we should keep in mind that something's effect doesn't necessarily imply a certain function placement. For example, an Fe-Polr ILI from a rich powerful family where everybody knows their name and as a result, look unbothered, composed & "suave"--while being completely incapable of EIE-type dramatics or a range of emotional expression.

Especially with politics: the Soviet conception of socionics would probably make politics a very beta field, because Soviet politics is very bureaucratic and ideological. Not every country's politics is like this, especially in democracies where public support & having voters like you actually matters for elected office: a significant portion of U.S. Presidents are likely rational alpha & delta types, and took office at times and in situations where the increased "hardness" of a central quadra rational for example may not have been preferred. A huge amount of American political leaders have gotten flak for not being ideological enough, especially democratic Presidents who always seem to have allegations of being charmers that preach about change while obfuscating what they seem to actually think about it with maybes or false promises or simply not doing enough (Clinton/Obama/JFK/FDR/Reagan)!

Function placement is not competence. Everyone can come off differently based on the context.

Without further ado:

Alpha Quadra

1. ILEs

• Craig Venter, Scientist & Businessman: ILE-D
• Mikhail Gorbachev, Premier of the Soviet Union: ILE-D
• Elon Musk, Entrepreneur: ILE-D
• Javier Milei, President of Argentina: ILE-D
• Richard Feynman, Theoretical Physicist: ILE-C
• Steve Wozniak, Entrepreneur & Engineer: ILE-C
• Leonardo Da Vinci, Polymath: ILE-C
• Sergey Brin, Entrepreneur: ILE-C
• Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father & Polymath: ILE-C
• Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Musician: ILE-C
• Charlie Chaplin, Actor: ILE-C

2. LIIs

Note: there's some people in this list that people would probably be inclined to type as ILI but are just so clearly rational that- nope.

• Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States: LII-D
• Sigmund Freud, Founder of Psychoanalysis: LII-D
• Karl Marx, Philosopher: LII-D
• Al Gore, Vice President of the United States: LII-D
• Barack Obama, President of the United States: LII-D
• Isaac Newton, Scientist: LII-N
• Larry Page, Entrepreneur: LII-N
• Alan Turing, Mathematician & Computer Scientist: LII-N
• Albert Einstein, Scientist: LII-H
• Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States: LII-H

3. ESEs

Note: oh boy, some of these are gonna be controversial. But these guys are not Si PolR EIEs. ESE with D subtype explains most of these people far better. These people have 4D FeSe while not being descending/Gamma/irrational types.

• Bill Clinton, President of the United States: ESE-D
• Joe R. Biden, President of the United States: ESE-D
• Oprah Winfrey, Talk Show Host & TV Producer: ESE-D
• Steve Jobs, Entrepreneur: ESE-D
• Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States: ESE-D
• Steve Ballmer, former CEO of Microsoft: ESE-D
• Ronald Reagan, President of the United States: ESE-D
• Jiang Zemin, President of China: ESE-D
• Tim Walz, former VP Candidate & Governor: ESE-D
• Princess Diana, British Royal: ESE-H

4. SEIs

Note: I'm definitely not doing SEIs justice here. I need to find more.

• Leonid Brezhnev, Premier of the Soviet Union: SEI-N
• Laufey, Singer & Songwriter: SEI-N
• Marilyn Monroe, Actress & Model: SEI-H
• Elvis Presley, Singer & Actor: SEI-H
• Clairo, Singer & Songwriter: SEi-H

Beta Quadra

1. EIEs

• Martin Luther King Jr, Civil Rights Activist: EIE-D
• Adolf Hitler, Nazi Leader: EIE-D
• Sylvia Plath, Poet & Author: EIE-D
• Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Politician: EIE-D
• Jensen Huang, Entrepreneur: EIE-D
• Christopher Colombus, Explorer: EIE-D
• Michael Jackson, Singer-Songwriter & Dancer: EIE-D
• Wilhelm II, Emperor of Germany: EIE-D
• Sun Yat-Sen, Chinese Revolutionary: EIE-D
• Charles de Gaulle, President of France: EIE-D

2. IEIs

Note: I need to find more but Te PolRs seem to be the hardest to find for me.

• Mao Zedong, President of China: IEI-D
• Melanie Martinez, Singer-Songwriter: IEI-N
• William Blake, English poet and painter: IEI-H
• Billie Eilish, Singer-Songwriter: IEI-H
• Avicii, DJ & Remixer: IEI-H
• Lana Del Rey, Singer-Songwriter: IEI-H
• Franz Kafka, Writer and Novelist: IEI-H
• Puyi, last Emperor of China: IEI-H

3. SLEs

• Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France: SLE-D
• Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bodybuilder & Politician: SLE-D
• Larry Ellison, Entrepreneur: SLE-D
• George S. Patton, American General: SLE-D
• Theodore Roosevelt, President of the United States: SLE-D
• Otto von Bismarck, German Statesman: SLE-D
• Pablo Picasso, Painter & Sculptor: SLE-D
• Cornelius Vanderbilt, Businessman: SLE-D
• Hernan Cortez, Conquistador: SLE-D
• Andrew Jackson, President of the United States: SLE-D

4. LSIs

• Joseph Stalin, Premier of the Soviet Union: LSI-D
• Louis XIV, the Sun King of France: LSI-D
• Vladimir Putin, President of Russia: LSI-D
• Robert Moses, Urban Planner & Public Official: LSI-D
• Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister of the UK: LSI-D
• Chiang Kai-Shek, President of China: LSI-D
• Xi Jinping, President of China: LSI-D
• Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State: LSI-N
• Neil Armstrong, Astronaut: LSI-N
• Bernie Sanders, Politician: LSI-N

Gamma Quadra

1. LIEs

• Alexander Hamilton, Treasury Secretary: LIE-D
• Sam Altman, OpenAI Founder & CEO: LIE-D
• Thomas Edison, Inventor & Businessman: LIE-D
• Jeff Bezos, Amazon: LIE-D
• Andrew Carnegie, Steel Tycoon: LIE-D
• James K. Polk, President of the United States: LIE-D
• Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel: LIE-D
• Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook: LIE-N
• John D. Rockefeller, Standard Oil: LIE-N
• Eduardo Saverin, Facebook: LIE-N

2. ILIs

• John F. Kennedy, President of the United States: ILI-C
• Richard Nixon, President of the United States: ILI-N
• Peter Thiel, Entrepreneur & Venture Capitalist: ILI-N
• J.D. Vance, Vice President of the United States: ILI-N
• Warren Buffett, Investor, Berkshire Hathaway: ILI-N
• Kendrick Lamar, Rapper: ILI-N
• Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor & Film Producer:
• Augustus Caesar, Roman Emperor: ILI-N
• Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher: ILI-H
• Edgar Allan Poe, Writer & Poet: ILI-H

3. SEEs

• Donald Trump, President of the United States: SEE-D
• Frank Sinatra, Singer & Actor: SEE-D
• Gavin Newsom, Governor of California: SEE-D
• Sabrina Carpenter, Singer, Songwriter & Actress: SEE-D
• Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil: SEE-D
• Catherine the Great, Empress of Russia: SEE-D
• Eileen Gu, Freestyle Skier & Model: SEE-D
• Roy Lee, Founder (Cluely): SEE-C
• Aaron Burr, Vice President of the United States: SEE-C
• Martin Van Buren, President of the United States: SEE-N

4. ESIs

• Kamala Harris, Vice President of the United States: ESI-D
• George H.W. Bush, President of the United States: ESI-D
• Eliza Schuyler Hamilton, Hamilton's Wife: ESI-D
• Taylor Swift, Singer & Songwriter: ESI-D
• George W. Bush, President of the United States: ESI-D
• Queen Victoria, Queen of England: ESI-D
• Nelson Mandela, President of South Africa: ESI-D
• Frida Kahlo, Artist: ESI-D
• Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of England: ESI-N
• Tsar Nicolas II, Emperor of Russia: ESI-N

Delta Quadra

I need to find more deltas.

1. IEEs

• Mark Twain, Writer: IEE-C
• Addison Rae, Singer: IEE-C
• Angelia Schuyler Church, American Socialite: IEE-C
• Olivia Rodrigo, Singer-Songwriter: IEE-C
• Johnny Depp, Actor & Musician: IEE-C
• Charli XCX, Singer-songwriter: IEE-C
• Bob Dylan, American singer-songwriter: IEE-N
• Stephen King, American author: IEE-N
• Jeff Kinney, Author & Illustrator: IEE-N
• Suki Waterhouse, Actress & Singer: IEE-H

2. EIIs

• Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady: EII-D
• J. Cole, Rapper & Record Producer: EII-N
• Gracie Abrams, Singer-Songwriter: EII-N
• Mitski, Singer: EII-H

3. LSEs

• Dwight D. Eisenhower, President of the United States: LSE-D
• Ray Kroc, Fast Food Mogul: LSE-D
• Harry S. Truman, President of the United States: LSE-D
• Deng Xiaoping, President of China: LSE-D
• Florence Nightingale, Nurse: LSE-N
• Robert E. Lee, Confederate General: LSE-D
• Tim Cook, Apple CEO: LSE-N
• Rishi Sunak, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom: LSE-N
• Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google: LSE-N
• Michael Dell, CEO of Dell: LSE-N

4. SLIs

• Erling Haaland, Norwegian Soccer Player: SLI-N
• Manfred von Richthofen, The Red Baron: SLI-N
• Zachary Taylor, President of the United States: SLI-N
• Alysa Liu, American figure Skater: SLI-H

---

By the way, socionics is intertype relations and some significant pairs are here below!

Barack Obama (LII) & Joe Biden (ESE): duality

Bill Clinton (ESE) & Al Gore (LII): duality

Joe Biden (ESE) and Kamala Harris (ESI): extinguishment

Donald Trump (SEE) & JD Vance (ILI): duality

Alexander Hamilton (LIE) & Eliza Hamilton (ESI): duality

Sun Yat-Sen (EIE) and Chiang Kai-Shek (LSI): duality

Sergey Brin (ILE) and Larry Page (LII): mirror

Alexander Hamilton (LIE) & Angelica Schuyler (IEE): benefit

I feel like this is kind of interesting to observe! I think in recent years Silicon Valley has moved firmly into the Gamma Quadra stages of its progression from even a fairly Alpha culture in the late 2000s/early 2010s.

The transformation of tech culture from the "nerdy" kind of entrepreneur who had a very passionate hyperfixation on creating something they thought was cool that ended up making money (albeit with prominent beta/gamma figures to bring these ideas to fruition as companies: for example, Steve Jobs as an EIE exploiting Wozniak, almost universally typed as somewhere in the alpha quadra) to the AI-slop-venture-capital-cool-jackass-social-media-influencer-cluely-roy-lee-esque-everyones-a-yc-startup-founder-get-rich-quick-with-a-startup! age is I think, emblematic of this shift.

it's quite funny to me that just 12 years ago this was being written about startups:

>It's exciting that there even exist parts of the world where you win by doing good work. Imagine how depressing the world would be if it were all like school and big companies, where you either have to spend a lot of time on bullshit things or lose to people who do. [3] I would have been delighted if I'd realized in college that there were parts of the real world where gaming the system mattered less than others, and a few where it hardly mattered at all. But there are, and this variation is one of the most important things to consider when you're thinking about your future.

And regardless of whether that's still true regarding success in the industry, the culture has definitely shifted from that kind of "purist" mentality.

this is so annoying. every time I open a comments section and someone brings up Elon at any point everyone starts freaking out and we have multi paragraph long arguments about what type he is. maybe im participating in the problem but im like, very confident that he is an ILE-D with a pretty significant overlay of autism+narcissism+potential bipolar disorder that has made him difficult to type.

I'm not going to list out every reason for the typing because im lazy but just argue with me instead if u have such passionate opinions abt this

all quotes r from elonmusk by Walter Isaacson everything else is linked or referenced

let's start by handling a few of the most common named alternatives first and the reasons why.

1. HE IS NOT AN LIE.

A. He is NOT Te base. He is Te demonstrative.

people tend to focus on his serial entrepreneurship & business success as a key reason for LIE. the problem is, this guy is not a Te base seeking profit first and foremost. his business ideas were never based on what actually had the most opportunity for profit, it was just what he felt like doing:

>After listening to Musk describe his plan to send rockets to Mars, Hoffman was puzzled. “How is this a business?” he asked. Later Hoffman would realize that Musk didn’t think that way. “What I didn’t appreciate is that Elon starts with a mission and later finds a way to backfill in order to make it work financially,” he says. “That’s what makes him a force of nature."

that's Te demonstrative bailing out Ne base, not the other way around.

B. He is STATIC and EP temperament.

Before focusing on irrationality, we can address the following motivation that he repeats over and over again for years:

>To his bemused friends at the time, and consistently in conversations over the ensuing years, he gave three reasons...He found it surprising—and frightening—that technological progress was not inevitable. It could stop...“People are mistaken when they think that technology just automatically improves,” he would say in a TED Talk a few years later. “It only improves if a lot of people work very hard to make it better.”

compare that to wikisocion's description of the EP temperament:

>EPs are both static and irrational, so they perceive reality as mostly not changing, and when it does, it’s in abrupt “leaps” from one state to another. An EP is bothered by the lack of change, especially as seen through his leading function, since his personal preference is for change. That makes him impulsive, with sudden bursts of action, energy, or even just thought, as he tries to get his perceptions “moving”.

the relationship is pretty self-evident.

C. He is JUDICIOUS, NOT decisive.

I know this sounds kind of crazy but remember that socionics dichotomies are a very specific way. it's not about quantity of work or even impulsivity (remember that LSEs are judicious too) but rather patterns of rest and work. Elon's work style is much more judicious than it is decisive.

for example,

>Tend to divide up matters into smaller stages during which they are mobilized, relaxing between each stage.

there's this guy named Nic Munoz on YouTube that I think is a larper douchebag who keeps churning out crappy videos where he fetishizes workaholism and his descriptions are never efficient, but he did get one thing right in his description of how Elon works.

>he uses a style of focus called sequential focus....in a given day, he'll focus sequentially on many different things and when he's focused on any of these things, you cannot distract him..he'll in between these sessions...let off steam. And for better or for worse, he lets off steam by either playing a friend in Polytopia or firing off some tweets, which is often not a healthy thing, but it's a release for him...The perfect way to describe Elon's work ethic is a man eating sushi. On a plate of sushi, you usually have...sushi along with a piece of ginger...known as a pallet cleanser...after you finish a certain type of sushi, you use the pallet cleanser to remove any of the taste from the last sushi so you can then have a more accurate taste of the next one. For Elon, playing a game of Polytopia or firing off some tweets is exactly this. It's a pallet cleanser."

It's like the definition of the above.

Contrasting judiciousness with decisiveness:

>Judiciousness (Wikisocion): "For Judicious types, it is mandatory that before they engage in some important task, they spend some time in this natural state of “slackness” (relax and distract themselves)the better they rest, the better they will subsequently mobilize and concentrate at the crucial moments, and the better their overall performance will be. The more difficult the task ahead of them, the more crucial and necessary prior rest becomes."

Decisiveness (Wikisocion): "Decisive types will often mobilize before it is really necessary, as if they are subconsciously preparing for accomplishing upcoming tasks; after accomplishing a task Decisive types remain in a state of mobilization for some time afterwards. A state of readiness is their natural state."

now here's the description of the time he spent right before acquiring twitter. was he mobilizing beforehand and starting to get some work done? no, he played elden ring. quote.

>There he stayed up with her until 5 a.m. playing a new war-and-empire-building game, Elden Ring. Right after he finished, he pulled the trigger on his plan and went on Twitter. “I made an offer,” he announced.

Elon spends a lot of time mobilized but that does not mean he's a decisive type.

D. He is NOT Fi suggestive.

his personal relationships are a nightmare. his 3 different marriages speak for themselves. now he wants to start a legion of mini musks instead.

---

I was originally gonna disprove each type one by one but this should be enough.

and, his need to be in charge is developed se role from fighting in South Africa + trauma from being forced out of PayPal.

>Elon was moved aside to chief technology officer. At first, he thought the change would suit him; he could focus on building the product. But he learned a lesson. “I never wanted to be a CEO,” he says, “but I learned that you could not truly be the chief technology or product officer unless you were the CEO.”

this is not an Se base stamenet.

------

ok argue with me if u want

Hey y'all! I've basically narrowed down whatever I am to these 4 types, so I'm curious what you think. I've tried to identify 4 core things that differentiate myself, slash, are distinctive of me, based on self-observation.

I'm a rising sophomore in college. I've kept every anecdote I've told here to things that happened in high school because I don't want to reveal details about my life today for privacy reasons.

---

1. PEPPINESS, CROWDS, EMOTIONAL APPEAL

Everybody I know is always really surprised by how "peppy" or "happy" my email/bio voice sounds. I assume this means they see me as a sad, stoic, or more aggressive person generally--I'm pretty sure it's all 3. I expect this extends to the voice I'm using in this post as well.

I think in real life, I'm generally "okay" with emotional expression, but my range is limited, very hesitant, and I prefer a good atmosphere to warm up and stop being shy. I'll interject in a cold atmosphere with sentences and I'll move around comfortably, but I'm not the person that brings all the warmth at the start. I prefer to be a more of an active participant than the emotional "group leader" EIE/ESE.

(Actually--one behavior everyone keeps noting is that once I'm warmed up, I go like, insane--totally unhinged. I got in trouble at my internship because I was excited, stood up from the table and started wheeling around my friend in a chair with rolling wheels and yelled "I'm going to wheel you around like a disabled person!" which the staff running my program overheard. This was an internship on a democratic political campaign. That went...pretty badly for me.)

I'm fairly good at reacting to crowds, but I think that's because they find my bluntness funny. I would say my way of emotional appeal is to be "the guy that says what everyone else is thinking but is too polite to say" and "the guy that says what needs to be said to speed things along but what everyone is too polite to say." I feel happy when I feel needed socially because I'm the only person that has absolutely zero qualms with saying the uncomfortable thing. That makes it fairly hit-or-miss. It can either go really well or get me in trouble. I feel really shitty when that gets me into trouble, because the whole point is to make people happy by facilitating things. It also makes people underestimate like, the softness behind the shell. This applies to people and one person has told me I'm very mean. But that was probably because I compared that person's nose to Pinocchio.

One of my friends once told me to "raise the room" in class when the atmosphere was subdued, and I was completely unable to, but at least they thought I was sociable enough they thought to ask me. Probably because again, when I'm comfortable, I'm completely unrestrained (another intern on said campaign compared me to LBJ's Johnson Treatment and called me touchy, but only with him, so I guess...but that might also be because the kinds of people that applied to my program are probably more politically brain rotted.)

I'm very good at asking interrogative questions and put a state representative candidate under heat one time while she tried to squirrel out with a chain of like 8 specific questions ranging from specific sections of the Endangered Species Act (which she mentioned in passing, probably to seem smart, but turned out to have no actual knowledge of when grilled) and discussing the different implications of a personal income tax/raised business taxes/gradually vs all at once implemented income taxes/wealth taxes on business. This wasn't something I sought out, though: I just happened to meet her and was curious and happened to have a lot of random knowledge.

I feel that all of this is pretty consistent with 2D Fe or maybe 1D Fe of the ILI strengthened via dominant DNCH.

---

2. SHAMELESS OPPORTUNISM

I've always been fairly "active" and "enterprising". One thing that distinguishes me is my ability to pivot when I see an opportunity, and let go of lost threads without worrying, being completely unaffected by the sunk-cost fallacy. Examples of this:

A. When I was in high school and tried to start a non-profit state branch, I originally worked on my application for one nonprofit I randomly found and noticed its president was from my friend's school several states away. I shot off a text mentioning it to her, and then she asked me to make a state branch of her nonprofit instead. I agreed immediately and gave up on the 30 minutes put into the other application in the span of ~5 seconds and by that evening the whole state branch board was assembled.

B. When I was in high school and was part of a certain national political organization for young people, I spent two weeks writing essays for let's say, a cabinet position. Then one day there was a notification that a vice chair position on a different but equally prestigious committee didn't have candidates for its election whose deadline was in 11 hours. Bylaws meant I couldn't be part of both at once. I filled out my application for the vice chair position involving >2000 words of application material in a caffeine-fueled sprint that day and gave up ~10 hours of earlier writing and editing work with only a minor passing thought.

C. When I ran for president of my school's speech & debate club (~100 members), I lost. Because the elections were held in-person and candidacies were in order of position prestige, I launched two other campaigns for two other board positions in the spur of the moment (which I both lost...oops) for two other positions because we could run for a max of three. I had been working on the president candidacy for the full last month before this, so I pivoted off a month's worth of work in the span of 5 minutes. Everybody else I knew who made it on commented on my emotional resilience following the incident, because they had watched me put together detailed voter lists and all the machinations of campaign work and I was holding myself together quite well (despite being emotionally crushed for about 2 hours, after which I rebounded).

This opportunism doesn't apply to my personal relationships. I tend to get quite attached.

Well, at least the follow-through part of the opportunism doesn't apply because I can't handle emotional confessions and shit like that. I'm quite sad because the reward potential desire part of the opportunism does activate quite strongly. I restrain myself.

Independently, I also tend to work best under pressure.

A. I once considered journalism because my experience working as a national director of journalism for the aforementioned nonprofit made me realize I would naturally be very productive as a journalist, since "getting the scoop" is intensely time-pressured. But I want to do bigger things and journalists are important but I would rather be the person they journal about.

B. I loved competing at tournaments. I was top 40 in the nation in debate while I was in high school and placed highly at state. I was captain for a year and also helped run a summer camp teaching hundreds of kids. Notably about being captain and summer camp board member---everybody I worked with in those positions commented on my monstrous work ethic.

Quote: "[school name] has had a lot of great debate captains, but I'm not sure anyone in the last five years has worked as hard as you and done as much for the kids."

---

3. DATA ANALYTICS RABBIT HOLES

This one made me wonder if I had autism. I don't have autism. I have spent at least 200 hours over the last year poring over data and numbers and statistics and creating charts and rankings and analytics and I don't know why I keep getting sucked into this because the stuff I'm making has absolutely zero practical application anywhere except my personal satisfaction. I'm scared.

---

4. PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS

I'm very skittish with personal relationships. Every time I confess, I confess with caveats.

One time, I told someone I liked them and also told them I wasn't looking for a relationship in case they didn't like me (which was a lie--I did want to date her). In high school I had a compulsive habit of telling people I was talking to that I wasn't looking for long-term relationships because everything was temporary in HS while desperately wanting long term relationships with them.

The two other times, they confessed first but somehow remember me as the one initiating because I did something to get them to confess first. Or, I'll ask them if they like me and then lie my balls off after if they don't.

I'm very capable of getting stuck in the "6-month talking stage situationship."

I more or less can't handle that level of emotional vulnerability and giving them so much power to hurt me like that. This is definitely a severe problem.

---

I can tell by now that I'm losing steam for this post and for writing because the 3rd and 4th sections have been so absurdly short, so despite wanting to say more things I'm going to just post it here. If this were an essay I would come back and expand but I don't care enough about a reddit post.

I keep crashing out

Every major tech entrepreneur I see is typed as an LIE, over and over again. I understand that the role seems to fit into the LIE stereotype, which makes me unsure whether the typings are based on an understanding of the people in question or vibe type. I've seen, so far, the following typings:

Bill Gates: LIE

Jensen Huang: LIE

Jeff Bezos: LIE

Mark Zuckerberg: LIE

Steve Jobs: LIE

Elon Musk: LIE

Sam Altman: LIE

In the edge cases they're not typed LIE, they're typed ILI because they seem socially awkward. Does anyone have a nuanced take on this/these people? Or does it just happen that all of them are copies of one another?

based on the movies---can anyone do a writeup? im curious

I'm a rising junior, but with everything I have so far, what would lead you to reject, waitlist or accept me from my college list if you were an AO? What can I work in in the next year to not get rejected? Minus, like, the absence of a junior year transcript (pretend that exists yk).

its ok if im hopeless at the 'dream' schools I have. I kinda know I fucked up my freshman year gpa and id be fine w realistic assessments

College List (Tentative, probably will add more)

(Safeties) University of Houston, University of San Diego, CUNY: Baruch, University of Connecticut

(Target) University of Washington-Seattle

(Reach) UT Austin, UMich, UC Berkeley, Boston University, USC, NYU, UCLA, Cornell, Rice, Northwestern, Duke

(Dreams--I doubt it lol) UPenn, Yale, UChicago, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford

Might ED UChicago/UPenn or REA Harvard/Stanford if im feeling desperate

Demographic.

Location: Medium sized state. Metropolitan area. Not CA/TX/NY lol, but I doubt they would be taking people from my state and especially not my area for regional diversity.

School: Moderately competitive high school; out of 18k+ public schools USNews ranks, its in the top 600.

Personal: Asian-American Male (I know thats so rare!!!), not first gen, no legacy, probably full pay (!!! for nyu lmfao)

Major: Political Science

Stats (yes they are mid to poor):

• GPA: 3.8 UW/4.3 W (or 3.87/4.43W if we take off freshman year for like the UCs); upward trend tho (3.71 freshman year cus I was a bum and didnt try in electives, have been slowly trying to fix it)
• APs: 4 in Grade 10 (Precalc, Seminar, World History, Micro/Macro), 4 in Grade 11 (Lang, Calc AB, US History, Physics 1), probably 3 or 4 more in Grade 12.
• SAT: Haven't taken it yet, will soon but if we go off the mean of my last 3 practice tests we can estimate ~1540

Extracurriculars (Awards)

ill keep these vague to not get doxxed

• Top 40 at Nationals in my Debate event (2x Nationals Qualifier)
• 3rd Place at the State Championship in my Debate event, top placing sophomore (2x State Debate Qualifier)
• #1 Freshman and #1 Sophomore in my state for NSDA points in 2024-2025 and 2025-2026 (this isnt an award from a tournament but its kind of important because national speech & debate association points come from every event combined, so its the only placement thats not just among people from one event among many)
• 2x State Speech Championship Qualifier
• Cleared to elimination rounds at National Circuit Debate tournaments
• Front Page Pick Poem and ~3k reads for that poem at this random poetry website (this is fake)

Extracurriculars (Leadership/Experiences/Projects)

• 1. Congressional Campaign Intern, 1 of 8 paid Democracy Summer Fellows (high schoolers & college students) selected from several hundred applications filed to a U.S. Congressperson's campaign
• 2. School Debate Event Captain, generic but I lowk did a lot.
  • tripled the amount of first-years graduating to varsity by mid-december compared to last year (u have to do well at tournaments to be varsity)
  • tripled attendance at the annual fall scrimmage for ppl in my event
  • organized an unofficial tournament w captains from 4 states over winter break to prepare my freshmen for the January/February topic
  • 1 out of 5 freshmen I taught made it to state and nationals
  • also this means I was board member on a ~100 person club and I also did board member things
• 3. Debate Summer Camp Nonprofit Board Member, board member at a debate summer camp teaching hundreds of kids this summer, guaranteed to be organization president next year. I'm in charge of all debate coaches and curricula & some outreach
  • I wrote the organization's executive board charter myself cus im js like that
• 4. Private Debate Coach, coached 1 kid from may to june '26 and then he got top 3 at middle school nationals his first in-person tournament? im lowk surprised but hey milk milk milk
• 5. School Chapter Secretary for an Organization for Youth in Politics, name will be left vague but through the organization I got to discuss specific bills with some state legislators personally
• 6. Nonprofit State Branch Founder, founder of a state branch of a nonprofit that has some big numbers and big partnerships. I started this like a month ago so hopefully I'll have more impact later.
• 7. Blog, started it w some friends, its lowk satire but we have like 2k reads
• 8. City Youth Council Member, im not gonna lie this is bs and they accept everyone
• 9. City Youth Council Action Committee Officer, elected officer on one of the city youth council action committees dedicated to solve a problem, but im still not gonna lie I got nepo'd in by my friends and didnt do shit

Honors

• National Speech & Debate Association Honor Society Degree of Outstanding Distinction (Top ~1.5% of members wowowow)
• im not even gonna lie my gpa was so shit I didnt make it into NHS LMFAOO nobody is honoring me for shit

Sometimes I just randomly see acceptances from ivies or T20s that just make me very confused.

I think there is like, room for some more optimism here because on this sub I see this conception of the ivies as these Uber-selective institutions who evaluate everything on merit basis and anything but excellence means auto-rejection.

But that seems entirely inconsistent with my observation. Not that excellent people don't end up at these schools, but uhh... there are some headscratchers. Again, not saying bad people have good chances, but sometimes it produces... questionable outcomes.

For example, I knew this one guy - west coast, chinese male, competitive area, with a 3.4 GPA from a grade-inflated school where 25% of the class has 4.0s, like no "cracked" ECs (student council, swim but not a recruit), not underprivileged, not legacy; then got into NYU?

Yes full-pay; but like...it's not just holistic admissions either, because there were people at that school much more "cracked" than him that were rejected. If he did a chance me, I feel like this sub would just laugh at him.

Actually, like about half the people I know that got into ivies+gtown+nyu this year (very specific because I'm thinking about specific people) were these "headscratchers" compared to "cracked kids."

The only unifying character trait among the headscratchers aside from general incompetence wasn't legacy/athletic recruitment/high SAT/ECs/URM but were just that their parents were very rich.

Which yes, wealth correlates to admission generally but it wasn't a building donation and it definitely wasn't being able to buy like SAT prep and EC opportunities since they weren't very stacked in those things. They just had a lot of money. I don't know.

Aiming for T20s. Likely will end up ED'ing UChicago for the 20-30% acceptance rate as a T10, but who knows?

I doubt T10. GPA is lowk too cooked for that and my ECs are okay but not "wow you cured cancer."

This is both a "chance me" post to know if my dreams are out of reach because of stats/get a different read on my app, because I'm feeling very pessimistic like everyone on here, but also an "advice" post to know what to do going forward.

This post is probably annoying and a little bit toxic, but that's what this sub's for...

Demographics

Race/Gender: Asian Male

Financial Status: Income undisclosed but full pay.

Hooks: Not first-gen (both parents have masters), not athlete,

Region: Somewhat competitive West Coast region outside of California. It's like a mini bay area but less cracked. Very asian and wealthy. Public school. ~10-15 of my graduating class of ~350 this year matriculated to ivies.

Additional Context: Moved to this area before my freshman year from a much less competitive area in a different state. Curriculum adjustment was a challenge.

Intended major: Poli Sci or Public Policy.

Academic Stats

GPA: 3.79 UW / 4.0 W*.

Non-standard coursework:

AP Seminar, Precalc, AP World Hist, AP Micro/Macro (Sophomore year)

AP Lang, AP US History, AP Calc AB, AP Physics 1 (Junior year)

*(Specifically, my freshman year GPA was a 3.71, and my sophomore year GPA was a 3.86, an "upward trend" if that helps. The reason my freshman year GPA sucked was because I wasn't locked into college admissions yet and I thought some courses wouldn't be relevant to my life, so I tanked a C in ceramics, B in art & design, B in PE. "When am I ever going to have to do ceramics?" Rookie mistake, I know. I'm told Cali schools discount freshman year in GPA calculation--which I hope is true.

I can get my GPA up to a 3.86 UW/4.19 W if I lock in junior year, or a 3.93/4.43 by Cali school standards. Big "if", but I have to try.)

Standardized Testing: No scores out yet, but I've gotten 99th percentile on most standardized tests I've taken in my life.

Extracurriculars: Awards

Debate:

• Top 35 in the nation at the National Speech and Debate Tournament for my debate event, out of ~300 competitors that qualified to Nationals out of ~10,000 competitors of my event in the country. 2x Nationals Qualifier.
• 3rd Place at the State Championship for my debate event. Highest placing sophomore. 2x State Debate Qualifier.
• 2x State Speech Qualifier in Impromptu Speech.
• Cleared to elimination rounds at TOC-bid, National Circuit tournaments like Berkeley and others.
• #1 member of the Class of 2028 in my state for NSDA Honor Society merit points in both the 2024-2025 and 2025-2026 school years. Significant because the Honor Society is the NSDA's official "ranking" of all students in a state and takes place irrespective of what event you do.
• NSDA Honor Society Degree of Outstanding Distinction (2nd highest degree in the NSDA honor society, with only ~0.8% of 140,000 members having it).

Others:

• Front Page Pick Poem that has accumulated ~3k views for October 2025 at a poetry website. (Yeah, this one is kind of BS).

Yeah, my awards aren't very well-rounded.

Extracurriculars: Experiences

Congressional Intern

• 1 of 8 selected to be a Democracy Summer fellow with my Congressperson. Paid internship with 10-15 hours of in person work canvassing, phone banking, etc combined with academic seminars designed to "train the next generation of democracy."

Debate Captain

• Elected board member on my school's Speech & Debate club with ~100 members.
• Graduated 71% of first-year competitors I taught this year to varsity by January 1st, compared to 29% from last year.
• Increased novice attendance at my school's annual fall scrimmage by 200% compared to last year.
• Over winter break, organized a practice tournament over winter break with schools from 4+ states for first-year debaters.

Debate Summer Camp Director of Debate Events

• On board for an organization that has taught ~300 students over the last few years and received local-level recognition. Oversee curricula, outreach, coach recruiting, etc for all debate events taught at the camp. This year has the most student debate signups in the organization's history.
• Guaranteed President next year due to nepotism, I mean, networking.

State Youth Advocacy Organization Chapter Secretary

• Elected Secretary of my school's chapter of this organization. Did the normal Secretary things.
• Also, through the chapter, participated in discussion over several bills relevant to youth with multiple state legislators.

City Youth Council Member

• Selected as a member of the City Youth Council.
• Officer on a subsidiary organ of that council. Make presentations to apply for city grants, itemizing requests, facilitate meetings, and carry out duties specific to the subsidiary body I will not disclose for privacy.

Private Debate Coach

• Coached 1 student for 1 month this spring. I didn't actually think this would result in something, but somehow I got this kid who has never gone to an in-person tournament before to get top 2 at Middle School Nationals in his event out of ~100 middle school nationals kids.

Newsletter

• Online Substack I started with some friends with over 1800 reads. This one isn't that serious.

This isn't one of those posts about how unlikely it is. More about understanding the process.

In the literature, how does the SEE "get with" the ILI? As in, bring the ILI out of their shell, get the ILI to actually think that there's romantic potential? Am I just supposed to walk up to them and say "hi, I like you"? That seems less nuanced, more boring than I'd expect.

I'm an SEE and I've known my dual for a while. Like most dualities, I didn't think anything of it for like, the first 6 months before I suddenly realized I liked them. Then I asked them if they liked me. They said no, so I let it be. But then we met up in person one more time and I got the very distinct feeling that it was a lot more like a gray area, that we have a shit ton of chemistry and now I'm thinking their first response was more of a cost-benefit analysis of what to say-- because I didn't openly declare and I just asked, there was more to lose. If I were them and liked me, well, I would say that I liked me but also acknowledge that would be rationally dumb.

I'm annoyed. We're very good work partners and I would like the ILI in my life for at least the next year to pursue this joint venture, and I don't want to risk making it "weird" given this in case there isn't anything reciprocal. The first time after I asked them if they liked me I lied my balls off and spun a story about something something plus curiosity. But you don't really come back from an open confession.

Am I just condemned to limbo til we finish the shit we're doing and my hands are freed? How does the ILI's brain work? Can I ever drop enough hints? What the hell does the "victim" romance style's whole thing about "not sure about own interest in another person" mean because if this indicates they just like whoever tries to get them then does that mean I'm green lighted to ask for as much as I want (which doesn't feel right and seems predatory)??

Can someone just translate the fundamental concept of SEE-ILI duality out of 20th century Russian?

Asking because my AP World teacher this year is known as like, a demon. Former college professor that was the kind that would brag about how few people passed their class, and seems to have kept that mentality when teaching high school. Basically nobody I know has an A in their class, out of like, 100 people. I ended with an 89.48%—which is just a B in my school since there’s no + or -.

This concerns me because I want to be a humanities major/polisci. I understand this won’t be the make or break at state level colleges, but I have aspirations to pretty high places. At T10-level rigor, I doubt the B would just get glanced over from the 2nd semester of my sophomore year.

Will getting a 5 on the AP test offset the B? Will it help at all? Do AOs that know a region take into account teachers like this? I feel very frustrated because even though so much was technically based on my agency as a student, the difficulty of obtaining grades in this class feels so outsizedly different than it should be compared to my other classes.

I tried to isolate the ones that probably distinguish him from other people. I think there is a very obvious type that I think he already is and maybe some of these bullet points are written to suggest that, so I would read "between the lines." I also think I may be negatively biased towards him.

I'm so so sorry for this giant text wall

• Alternates between expressions of extreme self-interest ("there isn't anyone in the world that would put me over themselves...everyone will try to gun you down when you're on top...life is a competition...you need to be out for yourself") and deep sentimentality, near-confessions to friends about how much they care about them and meaningfulness.
• Good networker in the sense they can easily make connections with people with "more" than them, can acquire leadership positions, project collaborations, and valuable information before others. Bad in the sense they generally abuse those they consider "below" them or "without," has lost elections for non-appointed leadership positions for this reason, combined with the shortsightedness of not understanding when they would need this contact. Attempts to rebuild relationships in the final weeks after a year of making these connections by his opponent (ESE) did not succeed despite effort.
• Enjoys showing off his connections. Deeply enjoys it when other people discuss his connections or romantic pursuits, even if there is nothing there. When the people curious know the people in question, he will not express this joy openly for fear people will stop discussing his sexual prowess or forward this perceived interest to the girl he is not interested in, but will "fan the flames" by alluding vaguely to developments. Likes to "show, not tell" in this regard, until he openly brags to his friends online who have no contact with the people in question that he "built a harem."
• Can be made to pursue a romantic interest purely by public reactions. Makes an effort to emphasize his friends' and romantic interests' specialness, high achievement, within other social groups. Tries to romance people in high positions in society, prestige is an aphrosdiac for him. However, hates when his "women" do "better" than him.
• Cheats on romantic partners due to mercurialness of own sentiments. Can express romantic interest in another while in a relationship only to severely regret it when he feels sentimental towards his partner again, only for it to change hours later. Hates to be labeled as a "cheater" - does not feel this in his heart. Similarly with lying--lies openly, shamelessly, yet hates to be labeled a "liar" for he doesn't "feel" that he is lying.
• Touchy with members of the own sex. Pushes as far as he believe he can. With a more "submissive" friend, playfully stroked and "pet" them, wraps arms around them. Does not do so with more forceful people. Careful not to be too touchy around members of the opposite sex, should they misinterpret touch as aggression; but once he feels he has permission, he may do as much as he wants.
• Deeply self-aware of his own shortcomings, aggression, violation of others' rights. For this reason is easily able to enter into deep conversations with others about them, can express regret and seem reflective, only to continue to make the same mistakes he logically dissected as leading to negative outcomes. Thus described by peers as a "bad person but not a bad person."
• Competitive. Deeply jealous of others if they do better than him. Can achieve national placement and feel uncontrollable rage towards a friend that placed very slightly higher. Believes they don't "deserve" to. Hides this to their face--claims to them they deserved to do even better, then walks away and tells his other associate they "did not deserve to do as good as they did" in under 30 seconds after making sure they were out of earshot. Can annoy his teammates by complaining about only getting a certain ranking when he did better than all of them.
• Does not have many clothes, primarily for the reason of being too picky when shopping. Enjoys wearing clothes that convey status (suits, polo shirts, etc) but resents modern fashion resembling "comfort clothing" and gender norms which limit the clothes available to males. Understands wearing suits and polos on a daily basis is strange and thus is very picky about photos of himself in civilian dress.
• "Your laziness is not normal peoples' laziness", as said by one of his peers, meaning he was exceptionally hard working. Then, by another when asked to characterize him - "smart but lazy." A third characterization: "quick."
• Finds it hard to work on tasks for long periods of time. When completing work or milestones within work, quickly becomes euphoric with pride with what he has accomplished and needs to "move around" and show others, after which motivation to continue work quickly dwindles. Yet sometimes challenges himself to work for extended periods of time, mustering 8 to 12 hour high-activity work days (i.e. no second unoccupied) once every week or so. Can only maintain these high activity work days with motivational content beforehand, a large dose of self-hatred, vengeance, or impostor syndrome, and no social contact, which immediately breaks his focus.
• This does not apply to competition, during which he can "lock in" for exhausting days at a time. Must see immediate results of his efforts.
• When alone, dances in his bedroom. Claims to have always needed to walk around, pace, throw things in the air, jump around, etc alone close to every day for up to an hour since he was a preteen--but deeply paranoid about others watching him do so, reluctant to sing/dance etc in public.
• Poorly handles sustained stress; a 4 week challenge will look like initial hyperactivity for 4 days (a "starter") and closing hyperactivity for the last week, but idleness in between.
• Readily expresses laughter and happiness. Recently made commotion on an airplane for laughing too loud, the only one of his three companions in conversation. However, can be very quiet in places where he does not know everyone. Eyes move very fast, scanning, jumping around, giving the impression of near-ADHD ness in this regard.
• Does not play sports but characterized as "athletic." Skinny, but described as "jacked." Described also as "spiritually fat" and a "glutton" despite his lack of body fat.
• When introduced to Socionics, showed others. Perceptive and able to type other people without tests, they feel scared at the "scarily accurate horoscope" presented. Quickly changes his mind about what type he is, identifies with 1 or 2 every few weeks and then completely changes. Quick to dismiss Socionics as "bullshit" if his friends read into it too deeply, despite spending hours on it. Has self-typed as every extravert except ESE.
• Moves on fast from adverse outcomes. Deeply stressed out by a challenge until a concrete result is shown. Then, whether it be success or failure, quickly moves on within ~1 to 2 days even if the process of attainment took weeks or months. Applies to romantic interest as well; prone to overanalysis of signs of romantic interest for months when "talking", only to give up all care when rejected.
• Overcaffeinated. Shows up persistently with eye bags, but only pulls all nighters about once per year.

Introduction & Context

Hi---after a lot of time spent around Socionics trying to convince myself I was an Se base I've finally come to the realization I'm an LIE. Something about extraverted dynamic rationals having a hard time typing themselves; but the last five days have made my lack of sensing deeply conscious for me.

I used to love this description of Si ignoring as "oh they don't really take care of their health when they have a goal but when they realize they need to theyre capable of doing it and don't ignore it." Well---it turns out, I'm able to realize when I need to take care of my health, because I'm not stupid and I logically know things like 'sleep affects performance' and 'internal state affects performance' but I'm completely unable to take care of it and somehow I manage to make it worse by trying. This confuses me even more because the things I'm doing to make it better are what you're supposed to do. This is pissing me off a lot and I'm deeply concerned about how this is going to affect my long term trajectory, and I would like to know how to get better at it.

As for typing as an Se base and Si ignoring, I think there is disinformation via this comment I believed that said “When Si vulnerable types are exposed to Si information, they’re uncomfortable and ignore it whereas Si ignoring types will be like ‘why are you telling me something so common sense’” and know they’re ignoring it on purpose? Maybe EIEs will react in the above Si vulnerable described way but I think Si information is also common sense, because I and I expect many LIEs have spent so much time reading into how physiological processes of the body affect things like performance and capacity and health advice for how to live healthily–and we deliberately don’t ignore it when we need to, I think. I just have no fucking clue how to deal with the information, which is the real problem. But under pressure I’m constantly monitoring my internal stasis.

For context, I spent the last few days at this five-day-long national tournament for something blah blah academics. Being twice as long as most tournaments, everyone has always said placing in the top ~10 or so out of 280 is really a "stamina contest" rather than being the most skilled because the real challenge is having the brain power and endurance to last through the week at decent functioning capacity.

So I was like, great! I'll just get good sleep, shower, and eat everyday and I'll win because I'm really good.

I was eliminated on the 3rd day of 5 and placed 34th. But I tied in rounds with a person that's in the top 2 and I was eliminated by someone that placed 4th. Having like, personally went against them and watched them in later rounds I fully believe that my skillset warrants higher placement--and maybe this is cope, but I'm like 99% sure the reason I lost was because I managed to consistently feel like shit every day and my brain became a fucking Nokia brick by day three. Let's like, run through what I was doing...

1. Sleep.

First. Sleep. I had to adjust my timezone by three hours so that was already kind of shit. But obviously it's important, especially in a high-stakes academic competition where you need to know what you're doing. After the first day of competition I took my melatonins... and then managed to insomniac myself awake to 2 am by ruminating about whether or not I was going to fall asleep. So going into day two I had four hours of sleep. Like, conventionally this is bad, and getting more sleep is good, right?

The weirdest fucking thing for me is that after day two, I actually forced myself to get eight hours of sleep. I learned that to get good sleep you should not be thinking about sleeping, and I managed to do that by listening to podcasts until I was really tired and not joining my team's nighttime Mafia game.

Then, when I woke up the next day, my brain and mental performance felt worse and more foggy than when I had gotten four hours of sleep. What the fuck. Then I immediately proceeded to get lasered in the next round and got eliminated.

And I started thinking like, when I get less sleep, my thoughts come out less in fragments and more in full sentences and that makes me a clearer communicator under less sleep. But conventional wisdom says getting 4 hours of sleep every night for a week is a bad idea for performance. But experience tells me getting too much sleep is a good way to get stuck in sleep inertia and speed my thoughts up too fast.

I have zero clue what I'm meant to do anymore in this department. I got 6 hours every day for most of the year and I felt better when I was getting 8 hours daily but apparently I shouldn't when I have stuff to do...?

For someone that managed to convince himself that he has this rare biological genetic temperament that allows a person to only need six hours of sleep and then abode by a schedule with that information being assumed for a whole year, eight hours doesn’t feel like it’s doing me many favors. Same thing–six months ago before a tournament I somehow got myself to wind my sleep schedule back by five hours and sleep at 8 PM every night and wake up at 4 AM, only to be more tired during the tournament itself.

Maybe another problem is that after I wake up, if I haven’t slept the allotted hours I told myself I would sleep that night I will lie in bed until that time has been achieved, which results in me drifting in and out of sleep for that period of time but I can’t bear the idea of starting the day on only a limited number of hours of sleep that would detract from my performance according to science.

Not to mention that it's so fucking hard for me to fall asleep. I would say I have insomnia, because for like a week I had every symptom and I was entirely unable to fall asleep, but it was only for that week and after I lost I slept like a baby for thirteen hours (after which I woke up with a splitting, incredibly painful headache–which sucks!). So I think it was just because I was hyper fixating on sleep because I thought it would affect my performance. Which is painfully ironic.

I'm so confused.

2. Food.

I'm not hungry when I'm competing. I have to force feed myself. Whereas on a normal day I can like, inhale a McDonald's or chick-fil-a meal in under 15 minutes, on day 2 of competition after not eating for ~14 hours I had to sit there and force feed myself a chicken sandwich for 30 minutes nibble by nibble because running off adrenaline I feel zero hunger.

And like, I don’t really like eating generally. When I eat, apparently I either eat too much too fast or nothing at all, which is super annoying because both fullness and hunger kill whatever sense of working momentum I have at a given moment. If I eat too much I always get a stomachache and I get really tired and I can’t continue working and I’m forced into idleness which kills my working pace. If I don’t eat I get hungry and I get low blood sugar after a few hours and I can’t do anything more. I deeply wish I didn’t have to eat, but alas, nutrition is key to avoid debilitating health problems and starvation that would hurt me a dozen times more.

I think this might be because I’m one of those people that just eats all the food in front of me when I’m eating regardless of how much it is. Maybe this is part of my Asian upbringing where you’re told to clear your plate, but if I have a single slice of bread in front of me versus a full large pizza, I just eat until it’s done and then I don’t think to eat any more or less. I have no clue how much I want to eat or more specifically how much is healthy to eat. Sometimes I’ll put together those calorie trackers or adhere to servings and then realize the process of eating makes me want to eat more—or sometimes it’s the opposite where it’s too much for some reason. I don’t know.

I have a habit of just eating fast food at the exact same place with the exact same order every day for months at a time as well, and people tell me I inhale junk food and all my friends are very confused about how I’m 5’9 and 131 pounds. I was called spiritually fat by one of my friends, which is an interesting metaphor.

I would like to figure out how to eat better.

3. Temperature.

I’m really sensitive to temperature and I hate this. If I’m too hot or too cold I get intensely irritable and it’s hard for me to do work. I would love to be able to do manual labor in a field but if it gets too hot I burn out after like 20 minutes. For this reason I don’t and can’t really do sports sports despite having a decent physique and being fast and apparently looking athletic and instead spend all my time in front of a computer doing stupid academic competitions–the closest thing to a cutthroat sports-like competitive environment with teams and all the dressings of medals and brackets and glory.

But when it’s really hot sometimes I become super resilient to temperature, like going on walks in China in 103 degree weather. And I don’t know what the distinction is between these instances.

Summary.

I complained for many paragraphs. If I knew how to manage this information better this would be much more concise, but I guess it’s a testament that I don’t know what’s important and what isn’t that I ranted for so long.

I would like help!

Hi, I think this question might look a little dumb. I'm not necessarily asking about how to type myself as one of either but rather how to recognize their distinct outward presentations.

Two gamma extroverts, with both Ti and Si in either ignoring or PolR slots. One lives, breathes and shits Se or Te and the other tryhards it. Ignoring vs PolR probably look the same on the outside and identifying the tryharded functions have to compensate for individual differences in competence, probably.

SEE has Fe demo but it's unvalued and is used as a tool. LIE has Fe role, which can get very competent and... is also used as a tool. The opposite with Ne.

The introverted functions seem hard to identify since I don't think they present externally as much.

How can I tell the difference?

You don't really have to chance me because I think it's still early for that.

Demographics: Asian Male, Full pay; moderately competitive area (my school matriculates maybe ~5 to ivies every year, not Bay Area crazy but not underprivileged). Medium sized state (not like NY/Cali/Texas--but big enough that my school used to have to fly to our state debate championship; like top 15 populous states) decently wealthy area.

Household Income: ~250k for 3 household members

Intended Major(s): Political Science

ACT/SAT/SAT II: Taking the SAT in November, but I've gotten 99th percentile on most standardized tests I've taken in my life

UW/W GPA and Rank: 3.79 UW/4.02W; no class rank

(I'm aware 3.79 UW GPA is terrible; it's a really sore spot for me and sometimes it keeps me up at night--as a freshman, I wasn't really tuned into college admissions culture and I thought random electives I had to take were useless for my future, so I did things like slack off and get a C in ceramics 1, a B in PE, and a B in art & design 1. And I bet on a vague idea of getting an "upward trend" when it came to college. I know I should've gone for the 4.0.)

Coursework: Precalculus, AP World History, AP Seminar, AP Microeconomics, AP Macroeconomics (no AP test scores released yet)

Next year taking AP Lang, AP Calc AB, AP Physics 1, APUSH

Awards:

Speech and Debate:

• 3rd Place at State Debate Championship in my event
• 2x National Speech and Debate Tournament Qualifier
• Cleared to elim rounds at National Circuit Tournaments like the Cal Invitational @ UC Berkeley
• 2x State Speech Championship Qualifier
• 2x State Debate Championship Qualifier
• NSDA Honor Society Degree of Superior Distinction (Top ~2% by points)
• #1 Sophomore in State for NSDA points in the year 2025-2026
• #1 Freshman in State for NSDA points in the year 2024-2025
• Championed 5 local speech & debate tournaments with ~40 people each in my event (but those are probably too small to put on an app lol)

Writing:

• Front Page Pick Poem on a Poetry Website and I have 4.8k+ reads on poems there in general. I didn't really know about competition opportunities til late this year tho.

I hope to uh, diversify this next year with more writing awards. I agree it is pretty concentrated in S&D, which is probably quite boring. I also want to place at Nationals which is in a week, and maybe get a bid or two to the TOC.

Extracurriculars:

• 1 of 8 fellows selected as a Democracy Summer fellow for my U.S. Representative this summer (basically u do on-the-ground organizing as a campaign intern + an academic track, and u get paid)--I'm very hyped abt this one
• Speech and Debate Club--Debate Captain and Board Member currently running for President of the Club; it has ~100 members but should expand next year, and I've made measurable impact as Captain like:
  • Graduating 71% of first-year competitors to the varsity division of my event, compared to 29% from last year.
  • Organized a novice tournament over winter break with captains from schools in 4 states
  • Increased the size of novice debate squad attendance in my event at the annual fall Novice Scrimmage compared to the previous year by 200%
  • Coaching a freshman to qualify to both state and nationals
• Director of Debate Events & Board Member for a debate summer camp/nonprofit this summer; role includes outreach to students, recruiting and coordinating a team of 9+ coaches across multiple debate events and overseeing curriculum design, stuff like that.
  • The camp has historically taught over 200+ students since its founding in 2023 and been featured in local newspapers.
  • I'm guaranteed President of this nonprofit next summer because of non-family nepotism aka networking
• City Youth Council Member and Outreach Director for one of its Youth Action Teams (the city is medium sized: it has a population between 100-200k)
• School Chapter Secretary for a statewide organization focused around empowering youth in politics that I can't name because it's specific to my state. Role includes managing social media & meeting minutes
  • With the organization, I participated in a Lobby Day at the State Capitol where I discussed specific legislation with state congresspeople
• I started a substack with some friends and it has 1800+ reads somehow lol but this was lowk just for fun--but I'm the like the person in charge of it out of us 5 so maybe I can milk it

Upcoming for next years, I have

• Applied to my state's official legislative youth advisory council (but I'm very uncertain about if I'll get in because my essays were kind of rushed)
• Potentially an internship at my friend's family law firm...
• Maybe a TedX talk?
• Maybe maybe DECA
• I'm very short-sighted and I'm not very sure what else I plan to do aside from what I've said here, but I'm sure I'll scrounge up the opportunities from somewhere

Essays/LORs/Other:

• I don't really have clear essay ideas yet, because I'm a sophomore. But maybe I have some (slightly uncommon but still overall very common) life experiences:
  • My school is in a wealthy area, but I moved there just before the summer of my freshman year from a much, much less wealthy & academically advanced area (though not totally underprivileged)---there were also curriculum mismatches (but mostly in science classes--not sure if this explains my bad GPA cus I haven't gotten a B in any science class--actually it definitely doesn't).
    • I think it was still deeply meaningful for me tho, attending a school with a lot of East Asians (~30-40%) from like, 5%. a lot of people here say they love DEI stuff but I spent a lot of my life in a white suburban republican town where I was literally just seen as an archetype of my race, which pushed me to early rebellion against that "good chinese boy" identity and stuff in middle school that uhh may not have been fully legal that Ive never done in high school--it feels so incredibly different to be seen for personal qualities here, rather than the size of my eyes
    • I ran for class office in my freshman year to try and represent people like me, who didn't come from one of my high school's feeder middle schools--I got the 20 signatures needed to run, but I didn't know anyone and this did not work. But it shows passion even if I didn't get the result I wanted? lmao
  • I was born in the US, spent 3 years of my childhood in China, and came back to the US when I was 4 to begin Pre-K not knowing the language at all. I don't think this is very uncommon for Chinese children but maybe it can be spun to make my attraction to extracurriculars that focus around the expression of the English language that I was so late to learn and characterized so much of my early alienation seem deeply meaningful
  • I spent a lot of time in middle school (cough I love covid--jk) and intermittently in high school on these online government political simulations with my friends from a bunch of places! usually im an administrator/organizer so idk
  • I have lots of passion for politics & history to the point where some people I know close wonder if I have autism (I don't--they uh, checked). I have stacks of presidential biographies, at one point I could name you every president and vice president and what they did and their life stories, I lowk can explain to u the bureaucratic structure of the military and niche things like the rate of promotion of commissioned officers to the next position as the effect of up-and-out systems; obviously this alone won't be shown on the app but like I actually like what I do
  • I also have done too much online reading on pseudoscience psychology in this year (this "socionics" thing) but that might be too embarrassing to mention

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having written everything down, I feel like an archetypal waitlisted applicant.

thoughts??

thought it'd be fun to share---maybe theres some correlation between systems or wtv

source: traitlabs (ts was 600 questions and set me back $50)

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Openness to Experience - 60th percentile
Openness to Ideation - 66th Percentile
Openness to Aesthetics - 42th Percentile
Openness to Fantasy - 55th percentile
Openness to Artistic Interests - 36th percentile
Openness to Emotionality - 62nd percentile
Adventurousness - 87th percentile
Openness to Intellectualism - 32nd percentile
Openness to divergent values - 53rd percentile

Conscientiousness - 47th percentile
Industriousness - 79th percentile
Orderliness - 13th percentile
Self-Efficacy - 75th percentile
Regularity - 21st percentile
Dutifulness - 5th percentile
Achievement Striving - 79th percentile
Self-Discipline - 83rd percentile
Cautiousness - 21st percentile

Extraversion - 98th percentile
Assertiveness - 97th percentile
Enthusiasm - 97th percentile
Warmth - 88th percentile
Gregariousness - 92nd percentile
Dominance - 98th percentile
Activity Level - 98th percentile
Excitement Seeking - 98th percentile
Cheerfulness - 80th percentile

Agreeableness - 3rd percentile
Compassion - 23nd percentile
Politeness - 1st percentile
Trust - 72nd percentile
Straightforwardness - 1st percentile
Altruism - 11th percentile
Cooperation - 7th percentile
Modesty - 1st percentile
Sympathy - 10th percentile

Neuroticism - 37th percentile
Volatility - 37th percentile
Withdrawal - 25th percentile
Anxiety - 36th percentile
Anger - 31st percentile
Depression - 64th percentile
Self-Consciousness - 14th percentile
Impulsiveness - 87th percentile
Vulnerability - 16th percentile