u/HanesPrydain

Support from Wales to our cousins in y wladfa when you face England !

Shame you guys beat us yesterday in the Rugby , but we have been struggling in the rugby for a few years unfortunately.

Will the boys from y Wladfa bring it home?

Cardiff now the largest Welsh speaking authority by absolute numbers in Wales, increasing again in the latest population survey.

What is everyone’s thoughts on this and the future of the Welsh language in Wales?

The future pattern appears to show extreme challenges in y fro gymraeg heartlands and a steady increase in south East Wales .

Source

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8dv050m9yo

First pic - Flag flown by Henry Tudor after landing in Wales and marching into England .

(Side note likely the influence for the dragons of the Targaryens in GoT)

Henry defeats Richard III at the battle of Bosworth in 1485 ending the Wars of the Roses.

Whilst the red dragon ( y ddraig goch) is ancient , dating at least to the 800s, Henry adds the green and white from his royal connections.

The red dragon of the Britons/Welsh likely originated in Roman Draco standards and came to stand for resistance against the white dragon of the Anglo Saxons. Pic 3 and 4

With Henry’s victory to many in Wales it ends the 1000 year war starting Macsen Wledig and the fall of Rome and rise of the Anglo Saxons.

Wales , unconquered by the Anglo Saxons was slowly taken by their own conquerors, the Normans. It took over 200 years of piecemeal fighting after they were initially checked and pushed out of much of Wales , famously losing in battles such as Crug Mawr. This constant, frequent warfare results in creating one of the densest and largest castle building areas per capita in the world.

After the final Norman victory under Edward 1 , three more serious rebellions under Madog, Llewellyn Bren and then finally Owain Glyndŵr take place. The latter lasting for 14 years with much of Wales liberated, with plans to divide England in two and a free Wales (tripartite indenture) however final defeat to Henry V results in devastation.

Henry Tudor (descended of a royal house in Anglesey of which many relatives supported Glyndŵr) makes much of his Welsh ancestry when seizing the throne of England surrounded by Welsh advisors. He even names his first born son Arthur after the famous British(Welsh) semi-mythical warrior . , although we never get an actual King Arthur as he dies in childhood.

After victory the Welsh dragon is added to the royal standard opposite the greyhound. However after the Tudors go extinct following Elizabeth 1, the dragon is replaced with the Stuart Unicorn which is there till this day.

Victory for Henry results in Wales being completely absorbed into England by his son Henry 8th. This is mixed result as although Henry 8th sadly bars Welsh from public office the gentry and middle classes are now legally equal to their contemporaries in England ending Wales status effectively as a colony.

Elizabeth 1st however authorises the translation of the bible into Welsh thus effectively saving the language the fate of Irish or Cornish. Welsh enjoys a high profile under the reign of Elizabeth including in Shakespeare plays. One funny example from this era is the word Penguin enters the English language and the wider world from Welsh sailors Pengwyn, meaning white - head , (ridiculously about a completely different bird the great auk….)

After 1000 years of conflict, Wales does not violently rebel for a free Wales again.

Henry and his descendants have a mixed legacy in the modern era , ultimately his victory bound Wales completely into England and resulted in the Welsh gentry such as the Herbert’s becoming completely anglicised . But Wales never bad a bigger more prominent profile in the wider British state than this era , far outsizing the relative strength and population.

What would Wales have become without the Tudors ?

Final pic the modern flag of Wales

For international users - Are there other interesting international examples like Henry Tudor out there? Where a leader identifies with a minority culture to seize the throne of the majority culture?

I suppose like a Breton king of France or a Basque king of Spain

(There are large scale industrial riots in the Victorian era- famously the first ever flying of the workers red flag at Merthyr and at Newport)

Is Henry Tudor the ultimate Welsh hero? If not why?

Consider that of the medieval period Owain Glyndŵr and Henry Tudor represent two sides of the Welsh coin.

If you are a nationalist Owain is the ultimate symbol of Welsh resistance.

Conversely if you are a unionist or feel British and Welsh then Henry Tudor is the pinnacle of Welsh representation into Britain.

If you consider the history of Wales , the Britons and the Anglo Saxons , later the Welsh and English , there is a 1000 year war starting with Macsen Wledig and ending with Henry Tudor.

Prior to Henry Wales is in almost continual state of conflict for 1000 years . Wales was a place of extreme violence resulting in the most expensive and comprehensive building of Castles in the world .

The anglo Saxons never conquered Wales - the Normans did. It took over 200 years of piecemeal violence with the ebbing and flowing of boundaries almost continually . The Norman’s overran Wales quickly but were checked and pushed back in the west and north , famously being destroyed in battles such as Crug Mawr. Towns are continually burnt and destroyed over and over.

The princes fight back for over 200 years but are overwhelmed by the Norman king Edward 1. The violence doesn’t end though , Madog rebellion, Llewelyn Bren then finally Owain glyndŵr.

Owain’s defeat results in a devastated Wales. Wales remains outside of England, second class, harsh laws.

Henry of the famous Tudor dynasty makes much of his ancestry , raised by his Welsh uncle , Welsh courtiers , calls his first born son Arthur . Incorporates the red dragon into the royal standard. Lays his battle flag in London. Wales symbolism abounds.

He rewards loyalists like Rhys ap Thomas . Ends the Welsh second class status . To the Welsh gentry he is a hero. Son of prophecy.

Our national flag is literally his battle flag. Yes y Ddraig Goch is ancient (at least to 800ad) but the green and white is Henrys. Potentially Bosworth is the only time the red dragon was flown as a flag in battle . Owain Glyndŵr chose y ddraig aur.

And with Bosworth , with many of his soldiers Welsh, Welsh resistance to the kingdom of England ends out of choice.

Conversely though We all know his son integrates Wales completely into England , and reduces the Welsh language to second class status. But then Elizabeth authorises the bible into Welsh absolutely ensuring its survival . This does not happen to Cornish or Irish until it’s too late. So a mixed legacy.

Welsh has a prominent level throughout the Tudor court

So what would Wales have been without Henry Tudor? Would Wales have faded away like Cornwall? Would there have been further rebellions ?

Should we celebrate Henry Tudor more?

Anyone else read this? Keen to get a discussion going on what your thoughts are .

Personally i thought it was incredible , if slightly patronising. A lot of the history sections and understandings of Welsh culture were weak buts that’s ok that’s not what this book is about.

The NHS, child poverty and transport sections were absolutely shocking . And the section on R+D was mind blowing. How could anyone Welsh on any side of the political spectrum read that and not be angry I do not understand.

The contrast between how Scotland is treated and how much is devolved is stark. Being passive is the problem.

It’s also interesting In the areas we actually have devolved powers we get a ok deal , in the areas that are not devolved we get an even worse deal than anywhere else in the UK.

On a rainy/sunny day today I am always reminded how most of what is now Wales used to a temperate rainforest until fairly recently

Now 90% of Wales is farmland

But … if you want to experience a little of how it used to look i recommend hiking Pen Pych

https://map.lostrainforestsofbritain.org/

Separate point, it’s only really recently that Wales and Welsh has been standardised in English.

Often you find terms like - Cymric, Cambrian, British used very frequently in Victoria texts.