u/Hyphz

I was very interested by Dr K’s video on self objectification. I know that it is most classically associated with women as the targets of sexual objectification. But I think that it is much, much more common nowadays to the extent that it is being sought out extensively.

Consider:

* Many popular YouTubers represent themselves as doing basically one thing all the time. And many people who want to be YouTubers see it is an opportunity to get paid to do their favourite thing all the time.

* Many themed superheroes have a single theme and trait running through everything they do, and are presented as powerful and successful.

* Many characters in video games, especially hero shooters and fighting games, likewise have a single theme that encapsulates everything about them. And game developers seem to be constantly wrestling with the issue of how to enable players to have the experience of playing one of these characters with freedom without the experience of regularly getting their character’s head kicked in.

The sad truth would appear to be that most people think they are objectified by the system they are part of, work or school, regardless. So if they have to be objectified, they’d rather be objectified about something they like. And anything outside of their objectification is far more likely to be something negative than not.

So it doesn’t seem surprising that self objectification is endemic when it has been presented as something successful and desirable for so long.

Regarding the latest video about lowering expectations but keeping standards, I can see the logic behind what's being said, but there's a big dark side to lowering expectations which wasn't quite mentioned.

That is that at the point when expectations go below goals for pretty much everything, passive suicidal ideation follows very quickly. If you never expect anything you want to happen, to happen, then what's the point? Most people in this position don't actually kill themselves in some grand way but they do just kind of stop caring and trying and potentially bring on an earlier death by uncaring behaviour.

And I think this is a lot more common than people think it is. A lot of responses to suicidal ideation tend to revolve around some major event or some ongoing pain. But at the brief time where I actually looked at A Certain Forum For Suicidal People That Must Not Be Named, while some people were in ongoing negative situations or had recently been hit my major negative events, most weren't. They were just meh, never expected anything to get better, and saw no reason to wait for what was going to happen anyway. "Anything I do now is just a footnote in an already complete story." was a resonant quote.

Notice I didn't mention what Dr.K called "standards" above because he described them as what you're prepared to accept or compromise on. But a compromise requires both parties to get something in exchange, not for one party to just settle for less. If you aren't getting the main thing you want anywhere, that's not a compromise.

So what is a response if expectations have naturally lowered themselves to that extent?

I’ve seen a large number of polemic articles laying into “looksmaxing” as a trend, calling the community “narcissistic young men”. But although the term “looksmaxing” might come from the Manosphere, the intent - to try and look as good as one can - seems entirely reasonable and positive. The same applies to the use of the term “mogging”. It just means the same as being outshone. Doing both of these have been absolutely expected of women for decades, even centuries; and while it may have been said that was unfair, there has never been a popular view that those who participate in it are somehow toxic.

So why is this idea resisted so hard? That same resistance results in the actual toxic part of the Manosphere coming up with all kinds of bizarre conspiracy theories to explain why, so it has a fairly heavy negative effect.

I originally posted this in AskSocialScience but was told it could not be answered with cited sources, which given all the stuff about the “male loneliness epidemic”, seems like an odd publication gap.