u/Lopsided_Yoghurt7149

I genuinely think Marissa gets way too much hate for the Oliver situation.

Was she wrong to dismiss Ryan's concerns? Absolutely. But I think people forget that the audience had access to information Marissa didn't. We saw Oliver's manipulation, while Marissa saw a troubled, vulnerable guy in therapy who was kind to her and made her feel understood.

Oliver was literally so good at manipulating people that even Seth, Summer, Sandy and Kirsten struggled to see what Ryan was talking about. He deliberately made Ryan look possessive and unstable, and given Ryan's past, it's understandable why people were having doubts.

Ryan was right, but that doesn't mean the truth was visible to everyone. Even he had to dig deep to expose Oliver.

Marissa should've taken Ryan more seriously, but there's a difference between criticising her judgement and blaming her for being manipulated. Oliver deliberately played her trust, and I don't think she should be vilified for failing to see through the lies.

I see that people here really hate Keith, and to be fair he is so white-washed that it's natural to do some desperate fault-finding and not liking him out of spite.

But to me, he is just a noble and courteous man who was the scapegoat most of the times to his brother's jealousy and shortcomings, Deb's superiority complex, Karen's co-dependency.

I can't find any legitimate instance of being the "bad guy". He made mistakes, like we all do but was rarely ever being "evil".

Yes he ambushed Karen with the proposal but stepped away when she rejected him and maintained distance too.

Yes he was careless with Lucas and caused the accident but again, it wasn't intentional. And wasn't his fault either...???

So if you really hate him, why so?

Deb is the catalyst of almost every one of Dan's evil acts and her perpetual "I am better than Dan" attitude is exactly what derailed their marriage and a lot of Nathan's happiness too.

Dan was an awful father- controlling, heartless, ill-mannered. But he did everything in his power to keep his family and marriage together and meanwhile there's Deb who is basically mostly out of town, is routinely cheating on her husband and still never comes clean about her actions to her son.

Dan was showing a lot of grace to her throughout, forgiving her for cheating on him with her own brother too and STILL wanting her in his life. But Deb continued acting like the only person she wronged was Karen and not her husband who was practically BEGGING her to not divorce him and make it work.

After Dan's cardiac arrest, Deb was so devoid of any soul or emotion that she let him lay there nearly risking his LIFE. Dan still never held any of it against her.

Ultimately she tried to k*ll him and had such little remorse for her deeds that she didn't even FLINCH before telling it to Lucas, Karen and then Dan.

The fact that Dan didn't have her arrested and nobody paid any attention to her being an attempted murder was CRAZY

Why does she get to blame everything she did to ruin their family on Dan?

Why does she get away with being a crazy murderer?

How can she blame Keith's death on Dan alone when SHE was the one who basically "loaded the gun" (as Dan said)?

How does she get to live a life free of guilt or repercussions while Keith dies and Dan's behind bars?

Re-watching Season 5 when Lindsey tries SO HARD to be all "buddy-buddy" with Peyton and that's SOO WEIRD.

It's typical of ex-girlfriends or exes to be bitchy about the current partners of their exes. They often judge, compare themselves, stalk their social media, over-analyse every conversation, try to find faults etc.

I mean we all do that, and imagine being so caught up wanting to be liked by your ex that you forget that's not important or natural at all.

I don't understand why Lindsey was "confused" about such a simple thing lol

I love Brooke down but her line of humour or even insults are downright ugly and mostly cheap-shots, that would 100% not fly unquestioned today.

The repeated use of "sl*t" and "wh*re" for Peyton, Haley, Rachel and probably every other female character (including her own mom).

The jokes about Rachel's plastic surgeries and putting up pictures of her to fat-shame her.

The disgusting joke about "if Peyton says she loves you, you will d*e".

Can somebody explain how ANY OF THIS is okay, especially when she claims all of them (Peyton, Haley, and even Rachel later on) to be her friends.

And Peyton was supposed to be her best friend? Can you imagine having a best friend that says something THAT LOW about you over some guy????

A pattern I observe through the entire show is that whoever is Lucas' girlfriend (Peyton or Brooke or let's even add Lindsey lol) ends up to be one of their most uninteresting selves during that period.

Peyton's character in Season 2 and Season 3 was really interesting- with Ellie, her misgendered bullying, the Jake story, her addiction issues. It felt realistic to watch her struggle with all of her insecurities and fears.

When Peyton and Lucas got "together" or Peyton's storyline revolved around him (in late Season 4, Season 5, Season 6), her character had a major fall-off. There was barely anything else other than being Lucas' sidepiece to her.

When Brooke and Lucas were together (Season 3, Season 4), Brooke just stalled as a character. I look at the Brooke from Season 5 and Season 6, the amount of nuance, depth to her is insane. She is perhaps the most compelling female character in the story when she's NOT WITH LUCAS.

Lindsey was pretty much invited for a free humiliation ritual on the show and unlike Anna (from Season 2) who got her own story and problems, Lindsey was barely having anything going for her other than being Lucas' fiance.

just my take on my re-watch.