u/Medium_Step_6085

I watched an old Dynamite from several years ago and got a bit nostalgic about the Stupidly fast Excalibur run through of a PPV card.

Felt like he read out about 30 wrestlers names, the matches they were in, the stipulations and a bit about the match without taking a breath in a stupidly fast amount of time.

It is a skill, and a talent and I wish he did it now and again today :)

Anyone else miss those crazy run throughs.

Is there any other industry or product where fans will try and use popularity and revenue to argue the thing they are into is better?

I am on a number of different forums and groups that cover a variety of my interests and while I see tribalism in various forms in many of these it is only wrestling fans who will try and claim the company they support is better because “it makes more money” or “charges more for tickets” or “has higher ratings or more people go to watch it”, or argue the reverse makes there own company better.

In my TTRPG forums no one ever claims that just because it sells more books DnD is better, they will debate the system, and in fact the high cost of products and the need to claw every last pound out of the fanbase goes against them even among the staunchest defenders.

In Xbox ve PlayStation debate I don’t see anyone arguing that one is better then the other because it costs more, or even try to use global sales to make a point

When arguing about which TV show is better I rarely see people pull out TV ratings as a point of comparison, likewise when arguing about an MCU film vs a DC one we never go to box office or even critical reviews to argue a case for which is better.

Then we come to wrestling fans and just over the past few weeks in various places online I have seen people arguing that WWE must be better purely because it makes more money. One person argue that the price of a ticket to a WWE show proves it’s a better quality show. People argue about the minutia of tv ratings, gates, anything that is a number.

So can anyone else think of anything else where fans are so obsessed with the financials and numbers? Why is it we care and celebrate how much WWE has made and don’t think the same of what our own sports team profit is. In fact I know if my premiership team reports a profit for the owners I don’t think, that’s amazing, I’m so pleased they made another million pounds. instead I think, money grabbing f**** you should be putting that back into the club, lowering ticket prices or buying us a new player.

Is this just a calllback to the vey public ratings war?

I have seen a narrative put across that the crowd being poor in Vegas was, less wrestling fans, WWE fans or people not into the product.

I think the main reason the crowd was poor was because compared to most dynamites this year this episode was poor.

The matches where pretty formulaic, the results where obvious and even the finishes could be predicted. nothing really moved forwards massively in terms of storylines, there where a lot of holding patterns just small builds to the feuds and matches we already know we are getting at Wembley.

Now I don’t think that is massively a bad thing, Dynamite was still better then most races this year, and I think sometimes you need a flat or port weekly TV show so that the highs feel like highs.

But the crowd reacts to what is in front of them, and for me watching on TV there wasn’t anything there to make me go, wow this is just amazing so why do we expect the crowd to create an artificial reaction in the venue.

I have no doubt this was a blip of an episode given what we have experienced this year so far, and with a 52 episode schedule AEW is allowed to have the odd bad show, traditionally it has been the dynamite immediately after a PPV, although Tony has been better at that booking recently.

But lets not create a narrative where paying customers of a live event that don’t react the way you expect they should because it’s AEW are not AEW fans. if someone has paid to go see a show they are entitled to react to the show the way they feel that show is encouraging them to.

The selling point for Andrade winning on weds is that he gets to be number 1 in the casino gauntlet match because the match can end before everyone gets in.

However we all know that every single casino gauntlet match so far has gone long, and the winner as far as I can remember, has never been the number 1 or 2 guy.

The only way that AEW can sell the story that being 1 or 2 is best is if they have the matches sometimes go short, have them finish in 5 mins with the number 1 or 2 winning, have all the wrestlers who where meant to compete then come out to show how many missed out.

This creates lore, and history, that can then be called back to when wrestlers are fighting to be that number 1 or 2.

However, I would not have that happen on a big PPV like wembley (mainly because I am going and want to see the surprise entrances lol).

But on a serious note, I can't remember which it was, but when you have a long (think 5 min wait) for entrance number 10 say, and that person is max castor, you feel that Tony is booking this match like its a rumble where as when it first was created I genuinely felt that someone had created a gimmick that overcame the many shortcomings of the rumble

well here we are after 48 hours and I have finally got all the way through redemption.

Far too long, matches that went on longer then they should, matches that would have been better as Dynamite main events.

Compared to the recent run of PPVs which have been long but not felt long at all, the crowd where just not as into this as they have been other PPVs and I think that didn't help me as a viewer, and that is not the crowds fault, but the product that was in the ring.

Yes there where some great matches, but there where a lot of periods of dead time, probably amounting to an hour in total and for the first time in a long time every match felt long and drawn out.

for the first time this year it took me 3 sittings to get through the whole thing, purely because I was getting bored and needed a break.

Lets be honest, yes, pretty much every match on this card would have been the best match on the card in WWE. But, that is not the bar we should be setting this against. For an AEW PPV this was poor, and alot of the matches on it where poor.

Ignoring the post match the Omega Knight match should not have headlined, Willow Thekla should have done, at no point did I buy any of the near falls in Omega Knight because we knew Omega was winning.

The Chain Match felt sluggish should have been a Dynamite main event, it did nothing for me to rehabilitate Jay White. Marina sneaking in the shillelagh when it was a no DQ match and she could have just gone in and hit Jay and Orange herself.

Davies Andrade, the crowd where clearly dead and exhausted by this point, this should have been a 4-5 min Andrade win, get the crowd buzzing again with all the highlights and then run this match back on Dynamite to give Davies a 16 min match with Andrade.

That in itself is 30 mins back, then you look at a fletcher bandido match which was really good, but could have been 4-5 mins shorter the Ciampa Jericho match for me didn't need to be here, Jericho did not need his win back from Ciampa (this isn't the WWE), it had it's moments but at the least could have been shorter an I would argue didn't need to be here.

Cope and Cage is another one that felt like it could have headlined Dynamite, I know they are canadian but the lack of build and the fact this was such a low stakes match again (no way Cope and Cage are losing the title to the deathriders before all in) again I couldn't get into this match.

I have no doubt many will disagree and full respect to you if you enjoyed this PPV, but when you compare it to the work AEW have been doing this year I have to ask, did this PPV need to exist at all.

So I think it’s pretty certain Osprey wins the title at all in, this seems the obvious story they are telling, and Tony seems to have a pretty good read on when to stick to obvious and when to swerve. It is also clear in the stadium Osprey will be the face and Kenny the heel.

But I have a strong feeling Osprey will end the night turning heel as he gives the nod and the Death Riders then turn on Mox. repeating what happened to Danielson (although not at wembley).

How apt if all in ends with the scene of Claudio helping to “break moxleys neck” as alex Windsor and wheeler hold Marina and Garcia just like PAC held Wheeler

I really hope AEW sign Seamus, not for the AEW in ring, although there are matches I would love to see), but his out of ring work. Celtic Warrior Workouts would be great with indie and AEW wrestlers, watching him do a mox workout etc. I think he could expand on this as well, do other YouTube stuff for AEW.

Also backstage helping the new guys develop I think he could add loads.

Would also be great to see him pop up in New Japan. or work CMLL.

Fully agree as a full time in ring maybe not the right role for him, but I think he has loads of experience he can bring to the locker room.

it’s a scripted and acted programme, edited and produced with scenes being reshot and faked.

there is nothing real about this show, so don’t treat it like it’s a “peek behind the curtain”

Bear with me, this is a nature documentary thing that maps onto wrestling scarily well.

It comes from marine biology. A scientist named Daniel Pauly noticed that every generation of researchers treated the fish stocks at the start of their own career as “normal,” and only measured decline from there. So a river that used to be so full of salmon you could grab one with your bare hands gets cut in half, then in half again, and each new generation just goes “seems like a normal amount of salmon to me.” The baseline silently slides downward and the total collapse becomes invisible, because nobody’s comparing back to the actual peak. Attenborough talks about it a lot.

Now tell me that isn’t wrestling.

Why it fits so well:

The audience turns over constantly. Kids age out, new kids come in, lapsed fans drift back. There’s always a fresh wave of people whose “normal” got set during a weaker period. When they say a show is good, they mean good vs. the last couple of years — not vs. what this medium is actually capable of at its best.

We’re trained to use a short window. Ratings vs. last year. Buyrates vs. last year. Gate vs. last year. A promotion can genuinely be “the hottest it’s been in five years” and still be a shadow of a fifteen-years-ago peak. Both things are true at once, and the short window hides it.

Nostalgia gets used as a thought-terminator. Older fans say “the workrate / the promos / the star-making was on another level” and get waved off as rose-tinted boomers. And SOMETIMES that’s fair! But shifting baselines means the old heads might actually be the ones holding the accurate long-range reference point, and we’re pattern-matching them to “old man yells at cloud” so we don’t have to engage.

The one honest caveat, because I don’t want this to be pure doomerism:

Salmon counts are objective — the fish are just gone. Wrestling is multi-dimensional and partly subjective. Production, athleticism, and global access have arguably gotten better over time, even as character depth, crowd investment, and star-making got worse. So the intellectually honest version of this argument names the specific axis. You can have a shifted baseline on storytelling while the in-ring product genuinely improved. Wrestling traded some qualities for others, which makes the “true baseline” way harder to pin down than a fish count — and way easier to argue about.

Anyway. Next time someone says “the product’s in a good spot,” ask them: good compared to what? And notice how far back their “what” actually goes.

I have seen all the noise coming from America online that if they just took there NFL and Basketball players and had them train at football from a young age they would the World Cup.

The WSL is used as an example of how America dominates.

But I wonder is there something more fundamentally different about American sports that means they won’t ever compete on the world stage like that in the men’s game?

The Pyramid system is a solid mainstay of all the nations that perform strongly in the World Cup, correct me if I am wrong but every league has relegation, promotion, a reason for teams to battle till the last day of the season and local teams who are encouraged to find great talent because that talent might help them climb the league ladder, or be spotted and then bought providing money that will help that club rise.

In the US the Franchise system takes away that need for small clubs to find the next Messi, or Ronaldo means that the only clubs really looking for genuine talent are the handful of top franchises, but, even then the drive to have to stay up and therefore nurture and grow top talent is lost because they can’t be relegated.

It also means that the players don’t have that same drive built into them to battle for every single point because at some point in the season it doesn't matter anymore.

Now women’s football world wide, while it is based on a pyramid, has a lot less history and in many countries they are playing catchup to America, but, I wonder if in time as the pyramid in each nation grows out and the women’s game becomes multi league and more and more local smaller teams form part of the pyramid will America struggle to keep up?

I fully accept I may be wrong here, and you may well point out nations that don’t have the same pyramid structure as the UK but who do well. But I do wonder if there is something to be said for nations where any team where any team can win on any weekend and pretty much every match matters?

Also, as someone from the UK I don’t know any players in the American League who had to scrap for a draw away to Barnsly on a cold december evening to try and win the league.

I see a lot of people saying that more academies and more opportunities for young players that don’t cost anything are what is needed.

But again a proper Pyramid system solves this, my Nephews are both in the under 8 feeder system for a 2nd division club. That club is paying for there training and development because it hopes out of the 100 or so boys it has at that age group in various youth feeder clubs it might find a Handful that can be good 2nd division players, or maybe that 1 that can be a great prem player and therefore either help the club go up, or earn the club a pay day.

If an academies only purpose is to try and fins players but isn’t linked to a club those players can potentially play for then what is the incentive. And if those players can’t help that club climb the league again what is the incentive?

I might be blinkered from the UK system but it seems to go hand in hand that it is worth even a non league club to try and find the best local players and give them an opportunity.

Most if us I think agree the Punk run was poor even ignoring how it ended. But I recently found myself wondering if Punk ever achieved what he claimed his purpose was, to get over young talent?

His major feuds with MJF and Eddie Kingston I would argue they both did a lot of the heavy lifting and got him over. Darby, he first match, was on a trajectory anyway and you could argue again Punk tried riding his coat tails.

So is there anyone in AEW now who Punk feuded with that you feel gained from the experience?

Osprey is being well trained by Mox, learning how to drag a match with a midcard talent he should be burying in 10 mins to a 20 min slog, teaching Osprey how to slow down and let your opponent get back into the match and make sure you earn your salary.

on a serious note, Moxley the person is so obsessed with making every match a 20 min masterclass he actually looks weak when he can’t finish midcard guys off quickly. In storyline how is that meant to be inspiring to Osprey. “well done you have learnt to drag a match out and not finish a guy off, here is a patch now”

The death riders could be so so so much better if Mox actually booked himself to bury guys that have no right being in a Ring with him in storyline.

I am really looking forward to Bandido Mox, but the whole premise of the match was Bandido said he looked across the ring, saw Mox had goled and he told himself “I want some gold”

But Bandido has gold, he is the ROH world champion.

Did he forget that fact (I mean I will admit I forgot it myself in the moment), he has a title but he acted like the continental title was the most important gold he can get.

People might think this is nit picking but it is these kinds of things that for me pull me out of my disbelief. It isn’t hard to handle either. Bandido could have said, I want AEW gold, or, I want to be a 2 belt champion.

AEW is usually so good at continuity and covering these little things. Osprey calling out that Darby couldn’t climb up a cage when he was being attacked is a great example of these call backs, and it makes things like this stand out even more, but it also buries ROH, the world champion thinks a mid card AEW title is bigger then his World Championship belt.

The first couple of Forbidden doors where amazing, dream matches you never thought you would see. A card full of cross promotional matches with very few AEW AEW matches (and the ones that where where mixed tags with wrestlers from NJPW as well).

It was a great concept and I would argue generally Tony was even handed in the booking of non AEW talent, this was never a WCW vs WWE type squash that Vince would have booked.

But it is clear for various reasons that the concept has changed significantly.

First of all most of the dream matches have either happened, or the wrestlers involved are no longer in NJPW having been signed by Tony.

Second, for whatever reason, despite opening up the collaboration with other promotions, there are fewer and fewer non AEW matches on the card. The top guys in those other promotions are not being given. huge platform to get them exposed to western wrestling audiences.

I would argue the moment you had an AEW AEW world title match at Forbidden door the concept was already in need of rescuing. But this year it is just been almost sad in how little exposure NJPW and CMLL are getting. gone are the days of a midcard full of cross promotional matches.

I am not saying don’t do those matches, Kenny vs ZSJ is going to be amazing and I love Tony for giving it to us, but let’s take the Forbidden door label off now, there is no more cross collaboration then there is when Dynamite goes to Arena Mexico, or does a Lucha show. Lets stop having to force one or 2 stories just to get NJPW guys over, and instead Tony give time to organically building those feuds over a longer period and let the match happen when it has been built and the crowd are ready for it, rather then just booking it in because it’s June and it’s what we do.

Lets get rid of Forbidden door and replace it with a different PPV, then, in a couple of years time, bring it back as a one off /!; follow that cadence of only doing it when it makes sense to have a big true cross promotional event.

For me this weeks Dynamite was just bad, which is a massive shame because the trend has been up.

Now I have no doubt there are those here who enjoyed it, and you are fully entitled to your opinions and I am pleased someone liked it, and please no, it was better then Raw, I do not compare AEW against any other promotion, only against itself.

My main issues with this week

The opening promo, Jericho lost all heat for me, this was like the worst of WWE and undid the really fun and good work Ciampa has been doing, to my mind Ciampa should have kept up ripping Jericho until the go home Dynamite when Jericho finally makes an appearance, instead we have this awful promo off that really didn't work and continued to prove to me that I really wish WWE hadn't low balled Jericho and he was over there right now where this kind of thing would be eaten up.

Moxley Shane taylor, Why is Mox filling up my TV time with a Collision level match, why does Mox insist on these matches going way longer then they need to, this could have been a swift 8-10 mins Mox comes in, gets the job done and goes home. But to make it worse, Mox now looks weaker then AR fox who beat Shane Taylor in ROH far quicker then Mox could manage. maybe Osprey should be asking AR Fox for advice. Then we go into another Multi Man weapons match on collision and more mixed booking, Garcia has been doing excellent work being the smarmy guy, trying to put Will Osprey in his place, just building to a hidden blade at some point for a massive crowd cheer. That doesn't work if he is then sold as Mox's number 2 here, coming out fighting off the infantry and calling for the weapons match.

Then we get more confused Deathriders booking, with Pac going up against the biggest face in the company right now, the guy being positioned to be the good guy against MJF's heel and wrestling as a Heel immediately mins after Deathriders have just been portrayed as faces against the Infantry. The match was good, they where doing brainbusters onto a chair but it didn't feel like there was any build, or emotion or really a story in the match. it was just a flat match with a set of moves in it that looked good, but we get that every week in AEW in far better matches. yes this then led into the 6 man cage match at all In and MJF was good, but this highlights that right now Forbidden Door maybe needs to be parked as a PPV because it is largely going to be AEW vs AEW.

Andrade Cassidy was good and usually would be a light moment of levity in a match, but I was so down on the show by this point I maybe didn't initially get into it the way I should have done, humour in this match would have been great if there had been some real emotion or drama in the rest of the show and stuff I cared about.

Womens match, so happy to see Maya world win, but the crowd gave them nothing it was really quiet, and so made the match feel flat when the adrenaline spot has no crowd pushing it, german suplex to shining wizard spot, it could have been a really emotional underdog match, but instead it was just flat.

The Callis stuff was good, and Callis showed again how good he is.

And then the main event

This was a great match, you don't expect anything less form these 2, but after the hour 30 of mins I had sat through to get here it took a while to pick me back up and get me into the match.

So yeah, I have no doubt they will turn it around but Mox needs to stop having long matches for the sake of it, especially these pointless meaningless matches. Make it special when someone almost takes Mox to the time limit.

I have no doubt many of you will disagree, but I think we need to be onest when AEW fails to live up to expectation. last week was a great Dynamite and I really hoped it would carry on in that trend. Not suddenly dip like this one.

Recent comments on a post about Jay White by me have made me realise I am potentially in a small minority of people who feel he has not proven himself to be more then an upper midcard talent in AEW and has failed to translate his NJPW run into the company.

I will explain where I am coming from but I am really intrigued to see what it is I am missing here that so many disagree with me. I will also say, I was excited when he came in, I really hoped Tony was adding another top guy that would be in the world title mix, but as some say, then the bell rung and it was clear he was missing something.

So if I look at the top of the card, the guys who deserve to be in that main event, world title position (not necessarily holding it) then there is a long list of guys who are better on the mic, and better in ring, more dynamic and more exciting then Jay White. Since he joined he had one ok level feud with MJF, which for me says a lot because MJF elevates the people he is working with, so if that is all he could get out of Jay then that defines Jay's ceiling

He had good matches in the C2 if I remember right, but didn't steal the show, and hasn't really stepped up and made that name for himself.

Looking at the roster right now the guys I would put ahead of him (in braindump order nothing more) for those main event spots

Takeshita
Fletcher
Hangman
Darby
MJF
Samoa Joe
Swerve
Kevin Knight
Mike Bailey
Mox
Osprey
Brody
Bandido
Okada
Cassidy
Briscoe
Darby

There are no doubt more, but every one of them has had a feud or match that sticks out to me, Jay for me has been the definition of Mid. I would even say Juice Robinson felt more of a TV star then Jay White did at times.

Now the booking maybe hasn't helped, pulling him into trios matches, etc. But I also feel that booking is indicative of how Tony feels about him since his debut, and yes injuries, but it isn't like just before he got injured it felt that he was on the cusp of being the guy.

So please, those who fight his corner, what is it you see in him or is it the nostalgia of what was a great NJPW run that you hope he will emulate eventually in AEW?

I am going back watching old AEW shows and I was wondering is there an out ring relationship between Pac and the Luch Bros that led to them forming the death triangle? Or was it just them being put together as a trio?

So I am on my AEW and while I have not done a full inventory it looks like most, if not all the PPV's are up now since the first All In. (if someone can confirm would be great)

So my question, what order would you rewatch them in, are there any you personally would never go back to? I feel every PPV has must rewatch matches.

So I will start this post by saying I love MCMG, I loved there TNA run and there work when they where at a peak there feud with Beer Money was amazing.

I also think that alongside the Bucks, hardys, E and C and Dudleys they brought tag team wrestling into the modern era and probably did more then the WWE teams because they had more freedom.

But, the fact is that they do not have that high level name recognition. When they last appeared in AEW the reception was lukewarm at best, they did not get a massive pop. So I am not expecting them to be the great incoming team people think and feel they will be very much in New Days shadow.

I am looking forward to seeing them in AEW, I am looking forward to seeing what they can do. I hope they come in as heels, I have always thought they did the cocky heel bit better then as faces. But people putting them on the same level as new Day in terms of an acquisition I think need to be more realistic about what they bring.

I will finish by saying I hope I am proven wrong.

So it might be the Algorithm suddenly feeding these vids to me, but just after Dynasty and leading into DoN, I have been seeing more and more videos online of Wrestling reviewers who traditionally focused only on WWE, some of whom admit they where disparaging of AEW even though they never watched it. With one openly admitting he just believed all the internet comments and so never gave it a chance.

They are now starting weekly watch alongs, show by show reviews, raving about how good it is. Making all the comparisons we know between AEW and WWE (better quality TV matches, fewer ads, better and more consistent storytelling more surprises).

Many of these reviewers said they would give it one PPV cycle (Dynasty to DoN) and are now staying, openly admitting they are becoming sickos.

What is even better is they are reacting to WWE fan comments and telling them how they are wrong (one openly told the person making the comment to watch a dynamite along with him and they would see that none of there comments about AEW where correct).

Now, around the time of Dynasty I believe was when WWE announced they would be restricting Youtube review vids etc. So this switch over may not have been entirely for Noble reasons lol. But it seems they are all sticking around.

Is this a regular thing and I am just seeing the trend now because of the Algo? Or do you feel there is a subtle slow change happening?