▲ 39 r/OpenChristian+1 crossposts

After months of discussing Islam with Muslims, I think I've found the real question. And it's no longer about theology

For a long time I thought the biggest disagreement between Christianity and Islam was about theology. I assumed the debate was mainly about the Trinity, the Incarnation, the crucifixion, or whether Scripture had been corrupted. After spending months discussing Islam with Muslims, I don't think that's the deepest issue anymore. I think the real question is much simpler. How do we know Muhammad actually received revelation from God?

I'm not asking how we know Islam is internally consistent. Im not asking why Muslims trust scholars. I'm asking what independently justifies believing Muhammad was genuinely speaking on God's behalf in the first place.

As I kept asking Muslims this, I noticed the answers almost always came back to the same things. The Quran, the hadith, scholarly tradition, consensus, preservation, Arabic, and logic.None of those answers seemed to reach the point I was asking about.Eventually I realized my question wasn't really about scholars at all. Every religion has scholars.

My question was how we distinguish recovering Muhammad's intended meaning from simply preserving a later interpretive tradition. If two people appeal to the same texts but reach different conclusions, what independent principle tells us which interpretation actually reflects revelation rather than later development?

After a long conversation one Muslim eventually told me something I appreciated because it was honest. He said he thought what I was asking for was impossible, even outside of religion.

That answer made me stop and think.

If that's true, then it seems every later interpretation ultimately depends on trusting Muhammads original claim to revelation. But then the question simply moves back one step. Why should I believe Muhammad received revelation in the first place? Christianity certainly requires interpretation. Nobody denies that. The trinity, Christology, and many doctrines involve theological reasoning. But what struck me is that Christianity begins from a public historical foundation.

The earliest Christians claimed Jesus publicly taught, was crucified, was buried, and then appeared alive again to His followers. Whether someone believes those claims is another discussion, but those claims are rooted in what the earliest community said they witnessed. The theology grows out of events they believed they experienced together.

Islam asks me to accept something different. It asks me to believe that over six centuries later Muhammad received revelation correcting what Christians had believed about Jesus all along.

That immediately raises the same question again. How do I independently know Muhammad received revelation? Appealing to the Quran seems circular because Muhammad is the source of the Quran. Appealing to hadith assumes Muhammad. Appealing to scholarly consensus assumes the community that formed around Muhammad. Appealing to later interpretation still assumes the authority that interpretation is trying to establish.

At some point every path seems to lead back to Muhammad himself. I'm not saying that automatically proves Islam false. I'm saying this seems to be the real epistemological divide between the two religions. The debate no longer feels like it is mainly about the Trinity or the crucifixion.

It feels like it comes down to a much simpler historical question. What reason do we have today to conclude that Muhammad genuinely received revelation from God instead of sincerely believing that he did? That's the question I haven't been able to get past. Id genuinely like to hear how Muslims answer it without simply appealing back to the authority that is itself under examination.

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 1 day ago

Revelation, Interpretation, and Continuity: A Comparative Study of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

Religious disagreement is often treated as a conflict between doctrines, verses, historical claims, or competing interpretations of sacred texts. But beneath those disputes sits a deeper question that is rarely made explicit, what is revelation actually supposed to be?

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do not simply disagree about what God said. They make different claims about how divine communication enters history, how it is preserved, how authority is transmitted, and what counts as the final form of revelation. Once this is recognized, many common debates begin to look different. The question stops being whether interpretation exists and becomes what interpretation is doing, what constrains it, and where final authority actually resides.

Before comparing these systems, I want to grant each tradition its strongest internal assumptions.

Assume Judaism sincerely preserves covenantal revelation.

Assume Christianity sincerely preserves apostolic witness.

Assume Islam sincerely preserves divine revelation through the Qur’an and prophetic explanation.

At that point the question is no longer which community is dishonest. The question becomes If revelation is functioning exactly as intended, what relationship should exist between revelation and interpretation? That question matters because interpretation exists everywhere. No historical religion escapes it.

But not all religions require interpretation in the same way or for the same reason. Judaism can be understood primarily as a covenantal continuity model. Christianity can be understood primarily as an event-anchored fulfillment model. Islam can be understood primarily as a textual-prophetic operational model. These are broad ideal types, not descriptions of every subgroup but they help clarify differences in revelation architecture.

Judaism locates revelation primarily in covenant and law. The giving of Torah establishes an enduring relationship between God and Israel. Interpretation is not external to revelation but built into its continued life. Rabbinic reasoning, halakhic development, and legal discussion are not normally treated as corrections to revelation but as participation within a covenantal structure. Revelation begins in a historical act but continues through disciplined interpretation bounded by text and tradition.

Christianity shifts the center of gravity. Its claim is not primarily that God gave a final legal discourse but that God acted decisively in history through Christ. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus become the interpretive center.

Scripture, doctrine, councils, and theology all exist downstream of that event. This does not eliminate interpretation. Christians still debate Christology, canon, ecclesiology, salvation, sacraments, and authority. But interpretation is theoretically constrained by something different. It is constrained by the claim that revelation reached fulfillment in a historical act that cannot be superseded. Development exists, but it is supposed to unfold what already happened rather than produce new revelation.

Islam introduces a different structure. Here revelation is understood primarily as divine speech delivered through a prophet. The Quran is not merely witness to revelation, it is revelation.

The Prophet serves not only as messenger but as explanatory embodiment of the text. Over time interpretive sciences emerge to preserve and apply revelation: hadith transmission, tafsir, legal theory, jurisprudence, theology, consensus, and methodological principles.

This creates a distinct relationship between revelation and application. Revelation is not only something to understand. It is something to operationalize. Law, worship, ethics, social order, and governance become connected to a living interpretive tradition.

This distinction matters because discussions about interpretation often collapse into a false equivalence.People will say “All religions interpret.”

That is true. But interpretation existing does not make all interpretive systems identical. The important question is not whether interpretation happens. The important question is What prevents interpretation from becoming functionally authoritative over revelation?

Judaism answers through covenantal continuity.

Christianity answers through apostolic constraint around Christ.

Islam answers through preservation of text, prophetic explanation, and structured methodology.

Those are not the same answer.

This becomes especially important when discussing continuity between religions. Judaism generally understands itself as remaining within covenant. Christianity generally understands itself as fulfillment. Islam generally understands itself as continuation, correction, and completion.

That raises an important philosophical question. How does one recognize legitimate continuity? If revelation is covenantal, continuity means remaining faithful to the covenant.If revelation is event-centered, continuity means fulfillment through a decisive historical disclosure. If revelation is textual and final, continuity means preserving and correctly operationalizing revealed discourse.

That question becomes especially significant for Islam because Islam simultaneously claims continuity and finality. Islam affirms previous prophets while also presenting itself as restoring and completing earlier revelation.

That does not automatically create contradiction. But it does create a structural question How much continuity must remain between earlier revelation and later correction before continuity becomes replacement?

Likewise Christianity faces its own version How much doctrinal development can occur before articulation becomes construction?

Judaism faces another How much interpretive expansion remains faithful to Sinai? These are not uniquely Islamic problems. They are problems of revelation itself. The deeper issue is not which religion interprets more. It is what interpretation is constrained by and what ultimately stabilizes meaning.

This leads to the final question. If revelation is functioning exactly as intended where should final authority actually reside? In the original event? In the revealed text? In the prophet? In the interpretive community? Or in some relationship between them?

That question cannot be settled merely by comparing isolated verses or pointing out historical tensions. It requires asking which model of revelation provides the most coherent account of authority, continuity, interpretation, and closure as a unified whole. In that sense, the deepest disagreement between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam may not be over doctrine at all.

It may be over what revelation is.

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 8 days ago

Revelation, Interpretation, and Continuity: A Comparative Study of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

Religious disagreement is often treated as a conflict between doctrines, verses, historical claims, or competing interpretations of sacred texts. But beneath those disputes sits a deeper question that is rarely made explicit, what is revelation actually supposed to be?

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do not simply disagree about what God said. They make different claims about how divine communication enters history, how it is preserved, how authority is transmitted, and what counts as the final form of revelation. Once this is recognized, many common debates begin to look different. The question stops being whether interpretation exists and becomes what interpretation is doing, what constrains it, and where final authority actually resides.

Before comparing these systems, I want to grant each tradition its strongest internal assumptions.

Assume Judaism sincerely preserves covenantal revelation.

Assume Christianity sincerely preserves apostolic witness.

Assume Islam sincerely preserves divine revelation through the Qur’an and prophetic explanation.

At that point the question is no longer which community is dishonest. The question becomes If revelation is functioning exactly as intended, what relationship should exist between revelation and interpretation? That question matters because interpretation exists everywhere. No historical religion escapes it.

But not all religions require interpretation in the same way or for the same reason. Judaism can be understood primarily as a covenantal continuity model. Christianity can be understood primarily as an event-anchored fulfillment model. Islam can be understood primarily as a textual-prophetic operational model. These are broad ideal types, not descriptions of every subgroup but they help clarify differences in revelation architecture.

Judaism locates revelation primarily in covenant and law. The giving of Torah establishes an enduring relationship between God and Israel. Interpretation is not external to revelation but built into its continued life. Rabbinic reasoning, halakhic development, and legal discussion are not normally treated as corrections to revelation but as participation within a covenantal structure. Revelation begins in a historical act but continues through disciplined interpretation bounded by text and tradition.

Christianity shifts the center of gravity. Its claim is not primarily that God gave a final legal discourse but that God acted decisively in history through Christ. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus become the interpretive center.

Scripture, doctrine, councils, and theology all exist downstream of that event. This does not eliminate interpretation. Christians still debate Christology, canon, ecclesiology, salvation, sacraments, and authority. But interpretation is theoretically constrained by something different. It is constrained by the claim that revelation reached fulfillment in a historical act that cannot be superseded. Development exists, but it is supposed to unfold what already happened rather than produce new revelation.

Islam introduces a different structure. Here revelation is understood primarily as divine speech delivered through a prophet. The Quran is not merely witness to revelation, it is revelation.

The Prophet serves not only as messenger but as explanatory embodiment of the text. Over time interpretive sciences emerge to preserve and apply revelation: hadith transmission, tafsir, legal theory, jurisprudence, theology, consensus, and methodological principles.

This creates a distinct relationship between revelation and application. Revelation is not only something to understand. It is something to operationalize. Law, worship, ethics, social order, and governance become connected to a living interpretive tradition.

This distinction matters because discussions about interpretation often collapse into a false equivalence.People will say “All religions interpret.”

That is true. But interpretation existing does not make all interpretive systems identical. The important question is not whether interpretation happens. The important question is What prevents interpretation from becoming functionally authoritative over revelation?

Judaism answers through covenantal continuity.

Christianity answers through apostolic constraint around Christ.

Islam answers through preservation of text, prophetic explanation, and structured methodology.

Those are not the same answer.

This becomes especially important when discussing continuity between religions. Judaism generally understands itself as remaining within covenant. Christianity generally understands itself as fulfillment. Islam generally understands itself as continuation, correction, and completion.

That raises an important philosophical question. How does one recognize legitimate continuity? If revelation is covenantal, continuity means remaining faithful to the covenant.If revelation is event-centered, continuity means fulfillment through a decisive historical disclosure. If revelation is textual and final, continuity means preserving and correctly operationalizing revealed discourse.

That question becomes especially significant for Islam because Islam simultaneously claims continuity and finality. Islam affirms previous prophets while also presenting itself as restoring and completing earlier revelation.

That does not automatically create contradiction. But it does create a structural question How much continuity must remain between earlier revelation and later correction before continuity becomes replacement?

Likewise Christianity faces its own version How much doctrinal development can occur before articulation becomes construction?

Judaism faces another How much interpretive expansion remains faithful to Sinai? These are not uniquely Islamic problems. They are problems of revelation itself. The deeper issue is not which religion interprets more. It is what interpretation is constrained by and what ultimately stabilizes meaning.

This leads to the final question. If revelation is functioning exactly as intended where should final authority actually reside? In the original event? In the revealed text? In the prophet? In the interpretive community? Or in some relationship between them?

That question cannot be settled merely by comparing isolated verses or pointing out historical tensions. It requires asking which model of revelation provides the most coherent account of authority, continuity, interpretation, and closure as a unified whole. In that sense, the deepest disagreement between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam may not be over doctrine at all.

It may be over what revelation is.

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 8 days ago

Revelation, Interpretation, and Continuity: A Comparative Study of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

*This is an updated version of a previous post

Religious disagreement is often treated as a conflict between doctrines, verses, historical claims, or competing interpretations of sacred texts. But beneath those disputes sits a deeper question that is rarely made explicit: what is revelation actually supposed to be?

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do not simply disagree about what God said. They make different claims about how divine communication enters history, how it is preserved, how authority is transmitted, and what counts as the final form of revelation. Once this is recognized, many common debates begin to look different. The question stops being whether interpretation exists and becomes what interpretation is doing, what constrains it, and where final authority actually resides.

Before comparing these systems, I want to grant each tradition its strongest internal assumptions.

Assume Judaism sincerely preserves covenantal revelation.

Assume Christianity sincerely preserves apostolic witness.

Assume Islam sincerely preserves divine revelation through the Qur’an and prophetic explanation.

At that point the question is no longer which community is dishonest. The question becomes If revelation is functioning exactly as intended, what relationship should exist between revelation and interpretation? That question matters because interpretation exists everywhere. No historical religion escapes it.

But not all religions require interpretation in the same way or for the same reason. Judaism can be understood primarily as a covenantal continuity model. Christianity can be understood primarily as an event-anchored fulfillment model. Islam can be understood primarily as a textual-prophetic operational model. These are broad ideal types, not descriptions of every subgroup but they help clarify differences in revelation architecture.

Judaism locates revelation primarily in covenant and law. The giving of Torah establishes an enduring relationship between God and Israel. Interpretation is not external to revelation but built into its continued life. Rabbinic reasoning, halakhic development, and legal discussion are not normally treated as corrections to revelation but as participation within a covenantal structure. Revelation begins in a historical act but continues through disciplined interpretation bounded by text and tradition.

Christianity shifts the center of gravity. Its claim is not primarily that God gave a final legal discourse but that God acted decisively in history through Christ. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus become the interpretive center.

Scripture, doctrine, councils, and theology all exist downstream of that event. This does not eliminate interpretation. Christians still debate Christology, canon, ecclesiology, salvation, sacraments, and authority. But interpretation is theoretically constrained by something different. It is constrained by the claim that revelation reached fulfillment in a historical act that cannot be superseded. Development exists, but it is supposed to unfold what already happened rather than produce new revelation.

Islam introduces a different structure. Here revelation is understood primarily as divine speech delivered through a prophet. The Quran is not merely witness to revelation, it is revelation.

The Prophet serves not only as messenger but as explanatory embodiment of the text. Over time interpretive sciences emerge to preserve and apply revelation: hadith transmission, tafsir, legal theory, jurisprudence, theology, consensus, and methodological principles.

This creates a distinct relationship between revelation and application. Revelation is not only something to understand. It is something to operationalize. Law, worship, ethics, social order, and governance become connected to a living interpretive tradition.

This distinction matters because discussions about interpretation often collapse into a false equivalence.People will say “All religions interpret.”

That is true. But interpretation existing does not make all interpretive systems identical. The important question is not whether interpretation happens. The important question is What prevents interpretation from becoming functionally authoritative over revelation?

Judaism answers through covenantal continuity.

Christianity answers through apostolic constraint around Christ.

Islam answers through preservation of text, prophetic explanation, and structured methodology.

Those are not the same answer.

This becomes especially important when discussing continuity between religions. Judaism generally understands itself as remaining within covenant. Christianity generally understands itself as fulfillment. Islam generally understands itself as continuation, correction, and completion.

That raises an important philosophical question. How does one recognize legitimate continuity? If revelation is covenantal, continuity means remaining faithful to the covenant.If revelation is event-centered, continuity means fulfillment through a decisive historical disclosure. If revelation is textual and final, continuity means preserving and correctly operationalizing revealed discourse.

That question becomes especially significant for Islam because Islam simultaneously claims continuity and finality. Islam affirms previous prophets while also presenting itself as restoring and completing earlier revelation.

That does not automatically create contradiction. But it does create a structural question How much continuity must remain between earlier revelation and later correction before continuity becomes replacement?

Likewise Christianity faces its own version How much doctrinal development can occur before articulation becomes construction?

Judaism faces another How much interpretive expansion remains faithful to Sinai? These are not uniquely Islamic problems. They are problems of revelation itself. The deeper issue is not which religion interprets more. It is what interpretation is constrained by and what ultimately stabilizes meaning.

This leads to the final question. If revelation is functioning exactly as intended where should final authority actually reside? In the original event? In the revealed text? In the prophet? In the interpretive community? Or in some relationship between them?

That question cannot be settled merely by comparing isolated verses or pointing out historical tensions. It requires asking which model of revelation provides the most coherent account of authority, continuity, interpretation, and closure as a unified whole. In that sense, the deepest disagreement between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam may not be over doctrine at all.

It may be over what revelation is.

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 8 days ago

Revelation, Interpretation, and Continuity: A Comparative Study of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

Religious disagreement is often framed as a conflict between doctrines, historical claims, isolated verses, or competing interpretations of scripture. But beneath these visible disputes lies a deeper question that is rarely made explicit:

What is revelation itself supposed to be?

The Abrahamic religions do not merely disagree about what God has said. They disagree about the structure through which divine communication enters history, how it is preserved, what authority interprets it, and what counts as its completed form.

Once this is recognized, debates begin to look different.

The issue is no longer whether interpretation exists—because interpretation exists in every religious system.

The deeper question becomes:

What constrains interpretation?

What is revelation anchored to?

And at what point does explanation become construction?

This essay argues that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam each represent distinct philosophies of revelation.

Judaism is primarily covenant-centered.

Christianity is event-centered.

Islam is text-and-prophet centered.

These distinctions are not accusations or refutations. They are different epistemic architectures.

The question becomes whether each religion’s interpretive structure matches its claims about revelation and continuity.

Judaism: Revelation as Covenant and Continuity

Judaism begins with covenant.

At Sinai, God reveals Torah and binds Himself to Israel.

This revelation is not understood as an isolated historical moment that ends divine interaction, but as the establishment of an enduring covenantal relationship.

Interpretation therefore becomes internal to the system.

The Torah remains fixed.

Its application unfolds.

Rabbinic tradition, legal reasoning, and communal interpretation do not exist because revelation failed—they exist because covenant life continues.

Meaning develops, but authority remains tethered to the covenant.

The prophets reinforce this repeatedly.

When Israel drifts into ritualism, injustice, idolatry, or political compromise, the prophets do not introduce new theology.

They call Israel back.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea—they deepen and illuminate.

They do not replace Sinai.

Even prophetic anticipation remains inside covenant logic.

The future Messiah is expected as fulfillment of God’s existing promises.

Judaism therefore preserves continuity through bounded interpretation.

Christianity: Revelation as Event and Fulfillment

Christianity preserves continuity but shifts the center of gravity.

The central claim of Christianity is not:

“God sent one more legal clarification.”

It is:

“God acted decisively in history.”

Christian revelation is anchored to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

This distinction matters.

Christianity does not claim Jesus merely interpreted previous revelation.

It claims He fulfills it.

Matthew presents Jesus as fulfilling Scripture.

John presents Him as the Word made flesh.

Hebrews presents Him as the final and climactic disclosure of God.

“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” (Hebrews 1:3)

Progressive revelation becomes central here.

God does not change.

But Scripture presents increasing disclosure.

To Abraham:
God reveals covenant.

To Moses:
God reveals holiness.

To the prophets:
God reveals judgment and mercy.

Isaiah introduces God’s future self-disclosure:

“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

“He was pierced for our transgressions.” (Isaiah 53)

Christianity sees Christ not as replacing earlier revelation but revealing what earlier revelation pointed toward.

The New Testament then functions as apostolic witness to that event.

This distinction produces a different interpretive structure.

Christians still interpret.

Christians still debate.

Christians still formed councils.

But doctrinal development is constrained by a completed historical act.

Nicaea does not introduce Christ.

It attempts to describe what Christ already is.

The Trinity is not viewed as a new revelation.

It is treated as theological language attempting to preserve the reality already witnessed.

This produces Christianity’s central claim:

Interpretation reflects on revelation.

It does not extend revelation.

Islam: Revelation as Text Plus Prophetic Operationalization

Islam introduces a third structure.

Here revelation is primarily divine speech.

The Qur’an is understood as direct revelation.

Muhammad becomes its interpreter, embodiment, and legal implementer.

The Qur’an repeatedly reinforces this:

“Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.”

“We revealed the Reminder so that you may explain.”

This means the Sunnah is not treated as external commentary.

Within Islamic theology, it is part of revelation’s intended operation.

That distinction matters.

The interpretive sciences emerge afterward:

Hadith collection.

Usul al-fiqh.

Tafsir.

Legal schools.

Consensus.

Linguistic analysis.

These disciplines are understood internally as preservation—not creation.

This is coherent inside Islamic assumptions.

But it raises an important philosophical question.

If revelation is final, preserved, universal, detailed, and clear—

how much explanatory structure can accumulate before explanation begins functioning as practical revelation?

This is not a contradiction.

It is a structural question.

Because many major Islamic rulings require movement across layers:

Qur’an → Sunnah → Hadith authentication → Juristic synthesis → Legal application.

Examples frequently discussed include:

Prayer details.

Inheritance calculations.

Criminal penalties.

Marriage law.

Rules of war.

Abrogation.

Contextual limitation.

None of this disproves Islam.

But it raises a legitimate philosophical question:

What is the boundary between revelation and methodology?

The Continuity Question

Islam presents itself as continuation and correction.

This introduces a unique burden.

Because Christianity claims fulfillment.

Judaism claims continuity.

Islam claims restoration.

That means Islam must explain not merely why Christianity is incomplete—

but why its own model appears after earlier revelation concluded.

Christianity’s internal claim is:

Christ completed what previous revelation anticipated.

Islam’s internal claim is:

previous communities partially misunderstood what revelation always intended.

This creates a difficult continuity question.

If earlier revelation remained sufficiently intact to confirm Muhammad—

why major doctrinal divergence?

If earlier revelation became unreliable—

why appeal back to it for confirmation?

Muslim scholarship offers answers:

partial corruption,

interpretive distortion,

concealment,

textual alteration.

Christian scholarship responds:

manuscript continuity,

public transmission,

early witness traditions.

This essay does not settle that debate.

But it highlights the structural issue:

continuity depends on one’s philosophy of revelation.

Conclusion

All revelation requires interpretation.

That is unavoidable.

The question is not whether interpretation exists.

The question is:

What anchors interpretation?

Judaism anchors interpretation to covenant.

Christianity anchors interpretation to a completed historical disclosure.

Islam anchors interpretation to preserved text embodied by prophetic explanation.

These are not identical systems.

They create different relationships between revelation, authority, and development.

The deepest religious question therefore may not be:

Which verse wins?

But:

Which philosophy of revelation most coherently explains how God would communicate with humanity across history?

That question reaches beneath polemics and forces every tradition—including Christianity—to justify not only its doctrines, but its entire structure of authority.

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 9 days ago

Muslims please reconcile this for me (architecture of the Quran)

I would like to present something that must be explained using the Quran only, not appealing to the old testament or new testament. This is purely about the architecture of the Quran itself. I would also point this is from a biblical and christian point of view, however historically it tracks.

In the old, we see God calling on the Isrealite to battle other nations as tools of judgement against them (and other contexts as well) for pagan/idol worship/persecution. However the Law, which also permits what we would consider atrocious, are also fulfilled in Christ. The theme being, Christ teaches us to love our enemies, and teaches the law is fulfilled in his ultimate sacrifice. We see a major spiritual pivot from Law to Heart. We do not see anything like this in the Quran.

The Quran in a Muslims eyes, is uncreated, eternal (timeless) words of Allah. Earliest Tafsir books are written 200 years after the time of Muhammad as a way to explain certain verses such as Surah 47:4 to explain how "it was for a specific time and it meant to be applied as this now" which shows human corruption, as the earliest tafsir on it was written 200 years after Muhammad.

So If the Quran is allah's eternal word then you must choose 1 of 3

  1. The text is permanently universal, which would lead to many moral issues
  2. The text is temporarily bound to the time it was given and needs reinterpretation as time goes on
  3. The text is Incomplete, trapped chronologically to 7th century Arabia Geo-Politics and is not clear/timeless as its "true peaceful" meaning can only be understood through the 9th century tafsir to explain that its not what it actually meant.

Now Muslims, especially scholars would not admit to 3, and usually not 1, they'd usually pick 2 if anything based off historical evidence of the tafsirs themselves.

Admitting to the first point, means you must take everything literal as it says, (Quran only) and this raises many moral issues. Surah 9:5 Surah 9:29, and others would have to be taken literally even today.

If they choose the second point, they are saying God only spoke these things to solve immediate issues.

If they choose 3, that means the Quran is not clear and concise and requires massive complex human apparatus, created 200+ years later to rescue it from looking like a standard from 7th century tribal warefare. So the text is not clear and concise to all of humanity, the clarity belongs in the 7th century human commentators, not the "divine text itself"

Jesus did not break the Old Testament law; He fulfilled its trajectory (Mathew 5:17). In Christian theology, Jesus acts as the ultimate lightning rod. All the physical penalties, sacrificial requirements, and geopolitical commands of the Old Covenant were absorbed, satisfied, and brought to a definitive end at the Cross.

Whereas in Islam he Quran is believed to be the verbatim, uncreated words of God, spoken directly into 7th-century Arabia. Therefore, the 7th-century context is frozen into the divine essence Nasr Abu Zayd, Fazlur Rahman Malik

why did it take 200–300 years for scholars like al-Tabari to produce the detailed commentaries that explain away or restrict its plain meanings on warfare (47:4), wife discipline (4:34), captives, inheritance, apostasy, etc.? When modern Muslims or governments apply 'contextual' or 'spiritual' readings, they are not primarily following the text of the Quran — they are following Tabari, Ibn Kathir, and the madhhabs who lived centuries later. Are you following Allah's eternal words, or the words of 9th–10th century Persian/Arab scholars who shaped them into a livable system? If the raw text needs this much human scaffolding, it undercuts the claim of self-sufficiency.

So, please do not deviate, if you wish you reconcile this, you cannot use tahrif, that itself is a later idea that "gained nuance over time" over the Bible, its a corrupted concept of corruption. Please stick to inside the Quran itself, how it reconciles being a continuation while looking incomplete when we see a major shift in the Bible that turns the message into ****something absolutely timeless, where the Quran itself, does not***. Do not only touch on one point, respond to it all please.

u/Nevlak — 21 days ago

Islamic dilemma without granting Tahrif

Tahrif is something I very much struggle with granting in any sense as its an idea that developed and evolved over time, and honestly, its just a lazy excuse that can now be used to reject anything, and then later appeal to anyways. So I honestly don't grant it in spirit of honesty itself. I will grant what the Quran says much like Muslims only grant "the red letters". I want what Allah says about the scriptures, not what a later idea. So really the AI part being mentioned is that i used it to try help find sources and what not to learn about the nuances of tahrif and basically the only Quranic leg is had to stand on is what the Quran say itself about any sort of distortion and false writing, but that does not mean it still isn't saying that what we had widespread as the Bible was corrupted, it only claims its interpretations were or, certain meanings hidden.

So then we have,

5:47"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein."

5:68 "O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."

7:157 “˹They are˺ the ones who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whose description they find in their Torah and the Gospel (paraphrased)

10:94 If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt,

So with this at the time of Muhammad we have 300 years of the Nicene Creed clarifying and refuting heresies like Arianism and others which subordinates Jesus. Which makes the Qurans claims about Jesus more inline with Arianism minus any divine part. So to prioritize the Quran you now have to reconcile why the Quran would be correcting a clarified and confirmed and authoritative scripture at the time of Muhammad (because it definitely was not left open to be later corrected) or accept that the Bible is correct and the Quran is presenting a contradiction as a correction

reddit.com
u/Nevlak — 24 days ago