r/OpenChristian

▲ 12 r/OpenChristian+2 crossposts

Partner had a deep religious transformation during relationship and struggle to make sense of it

I'm looking for perspective from people who have experienced something similar.

I was in a relationship with someone who was kind, thoughtful, open-minded, emotionally intelligent, and someone I genuinely believed I'd spend my life with. When we first met they told me their family was Catholic, but that they weren’t really practicing. We had conversations about children, and the kind of family we wanted to build. I always felt incredibly safe and loved with this person.

About halfway through our relationship, they started becoming much more involved in Catholicism. At first, I was supportive because I thought exploring faith was a positive thing esp since they grew up in a Catholic family. Over the following months, they became increasingly devoted, and by the end of our relationship they were attending church everyday. Their worldview also became much more rigid, and eventually it became clear that our future together no longer aligned.

What has been hardest for me is that this felt like a complete shift in values. Earlier in our relationship, we had talked about accepting our future children for whoever they became and embracing uncertainty in life. Later, it felt like there was only one acceptable path for how a family should look and what children should believe.

The relationship ultimately ended because they felt they needed a partner who shared that same framework.

I'm not here to criticize Catholicism. I'm genuinely trying to understand how someone can seem so open-minded and accepting, then become so certain that they end a loving relationship over beliefs they didn't seem to hold before.

Has anyone experienced a partner going through a major religious transformation like this? Did it feel like they became a different person, or did you eventually realize those beliefs had always been there? How did you stop trying to reconcile the person you fell in love with and the person they eventually became?

I'm also curious if anyone has experienced this with someone who seemed to become increasingly uncomfortable with uncertainty and started viewing life in much more black-and-white terms. Was that just part of the conversion process, or did you feel there was something else going on?

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u/Total-Yam-6256 — 1 hour ago

“Marriage is between one man and one woman.”

My dad was talking about that today and I just sat and listened and disassociated my way through his speech. He doesn’t like the church I go to, he doesn’t like that some women are pastors (at my college church), and he doesn’t like gay people.

I’m not gay, but I am trans, and I know when he made his speech he was talking about “those people,” but unfortunately I am “those people.”

My home church (which is not my college church, and I’m staying at home until I can go back to college in the fall) has also felt increasingly unsafe and there was recently a sermon on God’s wrath.

And recently when I took my mom to see Leviticus (it’s a religious horror movie starring two gay boys) she just mocked it after, and I genuinely thought she better than that.

My brother has only gotten more and more MAGA and his views make me sick but I can’t talk him out of any of them, and I’ve sincerely tried. He calls me a “woke leftist” for having basic empathy for individuals. That’s a stupid thing to be annoyed over, I know, but I just wish he was a better person. I wish my entire family was.

I’m just tired and crying and I don’t want to deal with this anymore. Sometimes I feel like I’m healing and then things like this happen and I just get sad and hurt and angry all over again. My anxiety about going to (my home) church has started to come back again since that sermon.

Prayers? Advice? Anything? I don’t want to be alone.

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u/AroAceMagic — 1 hour ago

Requesting a lot of prayers

I requested prayers for something like this before, and I am sorry. I'm just in a dark place. Lost three front teeth, might be a fourth due to decay plus many molars and top teeth. And having such a horrible, abusive parent. And I have ADHD. And stuff like this, plus other personal things. Makes me dehumanize myself and constantly feel unnormal compared to others.

Thank you all, i just can't handle anymore things. I'm such a failure of a young adult

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u/ThrowawaySea-Meaning — 6 hours ago

Reconstructing

I've heard a lot about deconstructing. And I deconstructed years ago, dismantled everything. I ended up agnostic for the longest time and now I want to reconstruct my faith and I don't know how.

I don't know if I believe in God anymore, I don't know how to believe again, I don't know how to worship in a healthy way, I don't know how to place all of my beliefs or find any fellowship.

Here are a few that will get me called a heretic:

I don't believe in the trinity, I believe in more of a unity between God the Father and the Holy spirit, who I believe is feminine, something equivalent to mother in a spiritual sense.

Jesus, I believe was extraordinary, I love his teachings, I believe in him obviously but I don't believe he is a deity, not anymore than we are.

I don't believe in most of the OT and NT, I believe there are errors and human impulses, maybe some is inspired and I do appreciate so many of the stories, but not historically speaking.

I don't believe in the resurrection. I don't think it's impossible, but I reserve judgement there a bit and would lean towards probably not.

I know, some will say it isn't possible for me to be a Christian and believe these things, in most views it is heresy. I have searched far and wide for anything close to what I align with, and honestly Christianity is still the closest thing. And that is where my roots are.

Does anyone have any suggestions on rebuilding faith, any suggestions for podcasts, teachers or youtubers that I can go check out for my journey, or literally any words of wisdom? I don't care about finding an echo chamber, I want to hear varying perspectives, I just want the inspiration and the food for thought.

I feel so lost, I'm so close to having my beliefs aligned and yet I feel so far away from having actual faith and devotions and solid belief in a higher power. It feels impossible to get that kind of faith back, every time I decide to try I just drift further away. It's like being at sea and the rip tide just keeps going no matter how hard I swim. I have a lot of mental health and physical health issues right now and I want to have faith again, I think I need to.

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u/Jane_TGS — 11 hours ago

Does anyone have recommendations for resources on Christian humanism?

Basically the title. I find the humanist movement inspiring and it seems already very Christ-like. I'd like to learn more, so if anyone has any good recs for books, videos, podcasts, whatever, lmk.

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u/Sparkling_Mud — 4 hours ago

I saw the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God in a vision!

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever, Amen.

My motive to share this deeply personal testimony is inspired by the words of the Holy Apostle Paul in 2. Corinthians 1: 3, 4 -

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God!"

I realized that this vision was the Divine Comfort that came to me when I was experiencing perhaps the darkest and most difficult time of my life. Therefore, I want to share the comfort given to me by the Almighty God the Father with you, His believers and children.

Since january last year, demons have been openly and aggressively attacking me. I suffered from nightmares and sleep paralysis, and I began waking up every night around 3:00 AM.

The whole problem with demons started because I broke my covenant with God. That night when I broke my covenant, I had sleep paralysis, where I was being strangled by a demon that looked like a black bat, he had sharp bloody teeth, black leather wings, and the third evil blue eye that cursed me, He also repeated to me twice: "Why did you break your covenant with God?"

After that night, I was never the same person again; it felt like the old me had completely died. I cried often, feeling deep sadness and disappointment. All of this was the consequence of that demonic, third evil blue eye that cursed me.

However, my greatest advantage and weapon was that I had read the Bible and I believed with all my heart and mind that God is good, righteous, and full of love and mercy, and that by His permission and providence, He allows various trials to come upon believers just as in the case of righteous Job in order to strengthen and develop our Character, Spirit, Will, Hope, Faith and Love.

I went to church daily, and most importantly I sincerely prayed to God day and night with tears and with all my heart and mind to deliver me from the evil one.

And then, the most special and beautiful night of my life arrived. On March 25th of last year I got up as usual at 3:00 AM to pray.

I performed about ten prostrations which in Orthodoxy are known as great metanias, recited the Lord's Prayer, and then lay back down in bed to go to sleep. Suddenly, lustful images appeared in my mind. I knew these thoughts were not my own.

While I was in bed with my eyes closed, I began to pray to the Lord again, but this time even more intensely than when I was doing great metanias.

Suddenly, God the Holy Spirit granted me an unforgettable vision and above all, the comfort, that strengthened and confirmed my faith in the Holy Trinity!

In the Acts of Apostoles in chapter 2: verse 17 it is written - In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Chapter 1: The Vision of the Saviour!

In a vision, I saw myself drowning in blue water, which was completely flat and calm, stretching out endlessly. But then, as I watched myself drowning, I saw that on my right side appeared the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ walking on the water without any difficulty.

His walk on the water was so powerful, effortless, and calm that it was an absolute joy to watch Him. He wore a beautiful white robe, He had shoulder-length hair, but His face was not shown to me.

The moment I saw Him, I stretched out my right hand toward Him the best I could, crying out within myself for Him to save me so I would not drown. He immediately took my hand and effortlessly lifted me out of the water.

This scene reminded me of when Jesus saved the Apostle Peter, who was also drowning.

Then, I was standing on the water with Jesus, He extended His right hand to me, which had a nail hole in the center of the palm. I kissed His hand and fell to my knees, bowing my head all the way down to His feet, which also had nail holes.

Then I stood up and I remember, that I hugged Jesus tightly, just as He did me. Afterward, we both turned around, He took my left hand and we ascended, surrounded by white clouds!

Chapter 2: The Throne of the Almighty God!

Then, I saw myself kneeling on the floor with my head bowed, and before me stood the massive white throne, upon which sat the almighty and holy God the Son in His divine glory.

He was Huge; He wore a beautiful white robe. His face was like the sun, emitting the uncreated divine energies like molten lava. You could feel His supreme authority, justice, glory, infinite power and immortality, but also His unique and unconditional agape love for all humans.

In Colossians 1:15 it is written - The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In Mathew 11:27 Jesus says: All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

In John 10:30 Jesus says - I and the Father are one.

In John 14: 6 and 9 Jesus also says: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.“ Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

Then, God the Son stood up from His throne and approached me. I could no longer see Him.

Chapter 3: The Finger of God!

I saw the Finger of God vertically descending upon my head and gently touching me. This moment is a direct reference to Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20 - Where it is written - But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, than the kingdom of God has come upon you.

The Finger of God is actually another name for the Holy Spirit.

Afterward , I saw my guardian angel leading me out through the golden gates of the Kingdom of God.

This entire holy experience was the grace and comfort of God the Holy Spirit, Who encouraged me to persevere in my personal spiritual warfare against sin and demons—a battle that began the very moment I read the New Testament and believed with all my heart and mind in the Almighty God the Father and His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave His sinless life on the cross and shed His most pure blood to wash all His followers from sin and make them perfect in the eyes of God!"

There are many similar testimonies on the internet about Jesus, heaven and hell. I highly encourage you to watch as many of these testimonies as possible from various people who had near-death experiences, because they serve as living proof that the spiritual world is real.

I would recommend two channels on youtube: God Encounters with Janie DuVall and God's Voice Daily.

My advice to all Christians is: read the New Testament, pray to God sincerely, be part of the Apostolic Church, wear your cross around your neck, because it is a great protection against demons, above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it as it is written in Proverbs 4: 23, help the helpless, the weak, and the homeless for such actions are beautiful in the eyes of God, as Jesus teaches in Matthew 25! Never give up and always fight, because stronger is He Who is in you than he who is in the world!

God's peace, love and blessings be with you all, my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever, Amen.

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u/Ok_Iron_5381 — 13 hours ago

Would you date a devout Christian that struggles with self pleasure?

I f23 although embarrassed to post this struggle with self pleasure and porn. I have been doing better the last week to get over my addiction but it’s a long road to recovery. I would do anything to be in a good committed Christian relationship but feel like guys won’t like me if I open up with them about my struggles. I feel like I’m not pure and nobody wants me.

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u/Plastic_Arrival_7577 — 19 hours ago
▲ 3 r/OpenChristian+1 crossposts

Guys I need help

Okay so as the title says I need yalls help. So a little background about me(F,22)is my dad(step but my dad nonetheless) was a pastor in the church and his 4 kids(2 women,2 men) were raised in the church but he’s super chill about his kids like his oldest is a lesbian but had a husband and 3 kids but mostly dates women now (2 women,1 man)(I’m saying it like that bc we’re all grown) and the other 3 are straight. Anyways they were raised in the church and from what I know it’s the Baptist church but I’m not sure at all because I’ve never asked. The oldest kid is more spiritual leaning. I say all this to say I am in the LGBTQ community and I was never scrutinized for my sexuality and ik that’ll never happen my parents(married) are in a poly relationship(my mom is bi and poly so by in large my dad gets a wife and girlfriend - this has been going on for years).

My main point here is that how do I get more into faith and Christianity? because me and my brother(same dad) were raised by our grandparents(my mom dated a guy in that family and they broke up and my mom couldn’t care for us so she dropped us off at our grandparents house but they aren’t biological family) and we went to church together as kids but I wasn’t interested in it bc obviously waking up as a kid at 6am is tiring but I love my grandparents a lot so I don’t mind doing it now if we went to visit). I’ve only recently gotten into it and my boyfriend is a Christian but this was a personal choice I made but I wasn’t that into religion as a teenager either. I mean I was trying to get my mental health in order and stuff but I knew I didn’t want to be at a low point in life and then boom I find God because there would’ve been a possibility of psychosis.

I have scrolled through instagram and I have seen videos of people deconstructing religions and I think that deconstructing religions is a fun thing to do and there’s nothing wrong with believing in nothing or believing in something completely different and I accept anyone who does. But when I see those videos it’s like my thinking is back at square one with my beliefs bc I’m so new. There’s an Episcopalian church where I live that is so accepting of people and I’ve always wanted to go.

But to end all this rambling: how do i strengthen my faith, how do I accept Jesus Christ in my heart of heart because im confused as to how that works,Am I allowed to question some of the things in the bible, what is going to be the hardest thing to overcome when first starting out, can I also go to my local Unitarian Universaliam church just to see what it’s about?

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u/seriouslyimdead — 14 hours ago

Bible Daily Verse: Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. — Proverbs 4:7

This is not loose encouragement; Proverbs 4:7 has weight because wisdom, understanding, and possessions gives it direction. For a morning that needs patience, wise guidance becomes the path forward. The point is direction that forms character, not information that flatters curiosity; this makes the practice of wisdom, understanding, and possessions wiser. Here Scripture works on attention, desire, and the habits that shape a day, giving the words about wisdom, understanding, and possessions pastoral weight. The verse asks for attention before action, so Proverbs 4:7 should be received through wisdom, understanding, and possessions.

Application: Move from reading to response while walking outside: write down the direction that seems faithful and test it with humility. Let wisdom and understanding guide the pace. Receive the smallness of the action as part of its faithfulness; do one follow-up shaped by wisdom and understanding.

Prayer: Merciful God, in the quiet pause, bring wisdom and understanding into this moment. Teach me to listen before I act as I practice a cleaner response. Let it let wisdom slow the shortcut without forcing the result. Amen.

u/Character-Koala6508 — 14 hours ago

You ever feel like Right Wing Conservativism ruined Christianity in America?

One thing that I’ve always noticed within Christianity in America is how there’s so much right wingers influence is involved. The same people who just seem to use the church and Jesus as a tool to just oppress the people they personally don’t like or turn the country into an evangelical version of the USSR or insert historical dictatorship here. I can’t tell people I’m Christian anymore without people thinking I’m some homophobic right wing nutjob who supports MAGA or have to explain the behavior of other Christians like Charlie Kirk, Nick Fuentes, MTG, Tucker Carlson etc….

Or the fact that almost every white supremacist hate group seems to be entirely dominated by Christian Nationalists.

Anyone here ever get the same stigma? I’m not even conservative and I’ve never voted Republican in my life. But I’m always lumped in with that crowd because of how rude, loud, disrespectful and annoying they are. You ever feel like this could change for the better in the future?

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u/AD121219 — 1 day ago

I just wanna share this with people (if you read all this thanks)

I’m honestly more conservative though I consider myself more so independent but I know by many in the sub I would be considered very conservative so I really hope it’s OK. I’m posting in this sub Reddit, but I really wanna share something. I’m a Christian - Lutheran. And I’m a woman too. The thing is I feel like my romantic desires are very different from many Christian women that I’d consider devout the wide consider myself devout too. I almost think a lot of Christian women might judge me or see my standards as low, but these desires are very dear and precious to me and and this is the type of guy that I can see myself truly loving and recently has been talking to and getting to no one like that and I’ve had a lot of fun with him – we aren’t officially dating, but of seeing each other.
Here it goes: I wanna be with a guy that’s a Christian for sure – someone that fears God and wants to follow him, but not one that many women would disguise as godly or a spiritual leader. I want a guy who I think many Christian women would actually considered to be lukewarm and I know that might sound bad to some people, but I just feel like I’ll be less judged to you and I really appreciate that. Like for example, the guy that I’m getting to know smokes and vapes and I just feel like one of my good Christian friends would act like I shouldn’t get to know him at all, as well as the fact that in the past, he’s been involved in something that some considered to be a dangerous sin and I do too, but I’ve prayed about it and it seems like he’s open to hearing my perspective and understands that I’m coming from and nobody’s perfect. I like the fact that I can enjoy an inappropriate joke or having a beer or two with him and send funny memes and yet that he’s respectful of my boundaries and my waiting for marriage. I guess I would describe my dream guy as somebody that believes in Jesus as his savior, but isn’t overly religious or spiritual and can still let loose and have fun and the one that simply knows he’s a sinner and goes to Christ for mercy and doesn’t try to lead me. Pray with me and push the Bible on me all the time, but it’s still open to theological discussions and praying for me or even an occasional Bible study, but can have a drink with me and just be goofy with me. I honestly rather be with a guy that has a big potty mouth and smokes and trust in Christ than a super religious guy who keeps asking me how much I’ve read the Bible, acts like any amount of alcohol is sinful, and feels he has to be my spiritual leader. These desires must mean a lot to me because I get emotional lol. If you’ve read this far, I really appreciate it.

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u/Unfair-Bird7917 — 1 day ago

I need desperate help.

Short ver.

I'm struggling with lust and dealing with trying to please God through my word; it doesn't feel enough. I don't believe the Lord has disciplined me enough.

There's genuinely so much I can give context to, but I'll only include do what I feel is important.

I (18M) am a beginner artist and screenwriter, I want to use my work to please God, but I don't feel like I'm putting in enough effort/hours into my work to fully please Him.

I'm trying to spend 4 hours a day working on a talent each day (one day for writing, the other for drawing), right now I'm hopefully going to work with a fellow artist to help sharpen my art skills (I want to eventually make my own manga).

I have no church, no denomination (not that that's really important for salvation), and no real close spiritual guide besides Jesus. I'm going to start looking for churches in my state.

I spend most of my day in my room and when I take a break from my creative work (currently unemployed) I tend to get lost in a ai chat bot app which leads down a lustful tragedy. I hate this. I'm aware of my sin, and I hate it.

I also struggle with pride as well, I often listen to music that really gets me pumped up and I start imagining myself as this big powerful person who's literally the beyonder from marvel. I'm aware of my pride and I hate it. I also tend to use these imaginations to carry out wrath (killing people who do horrible things--specifically r@pe and other sex crimes against women).

I know I will never be perfect, but that doesn't mean I can just use that as an excuse to say everytime I fall. I HATE my sin. I absolutely LOATHE it. If I could cut it off like a piece of flesh I would (figuratively, of course). I just want it gone.

I take a verse out of scripture and explain what it means in my journal, I draw everyday, I try to write here and there (I've mostly resulted to drawing because I really enjoy it and want to refine my skills), I read my Bible every day, I pray constantly at random times throughout the day, and yet I feel like I'm missing something.

I lack discipline. Instead of fleeing from lust, I give into it. Instead of turning off my phone (which I'm getting better at), I let my pride take over. I barely play video games anymore because I'm focused on trying to please God.

I hear God cares more about my heart than the hours I work, but how FAR does that truly go? How kind is God and when does it turn into a harsh "I TOLD YOU TO STOP." or a "YOU FOOL!" or even, "You foolish and unjust servant. I will take away what I have given you. You stupid child.". When does God discipline me like I feel like I deserve? A harsh rebuke. A stern warning. A strike on my body.

When does God say "That's IT." and harshly takes everything away and physically disciplines me or yell at me or say something that'll FINALLY make me stop doing these things? I hate it. I hate my sin.

No I don't hate myself, but I do tend to insult myself--but that's rare. I do hit my head lightly sometimes. Please, I would really--REALLY love some prayers over me. Refer to me as Z when you talk to Jesus later. Please. I really want to be free. I need help. I want to do what is pleasing to God.

Take care brothers and sisters. I love you all. May God bless you, comfort you, treat you well, and fulfill His will through you. For it is not ourselves who do it, but God within us. In Jesus' name, Amen.

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u/PUNISHER6SIX08 — 1 day ago

does anyone have any sources as to why St. John the Evangelist is often depicted as more androgynous than other apostles?

u/RattusNorvegicus9 — 1 day ago
▲ 4 r/OpenChristian+3 crossposts

The Old Testament

I feel as of lately the way I’ve been following the Bible is I been looking at the Old Testament and what lines up with a loving God and Jesus teachings but that doesn’t justify the stuff that that’s written in the Old Testament so I don’t know very confusing to me. Lately, I’ve been thinking about the Old Testament verses and stories in it, like Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
"If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you."

I’m a Christian, but I’m struggling with verses like this that completely go against what Jesus teaches. Yet, he does say he didn’t come to abolish the Old Testament. I see problems on both sides of things: Christians will defend these verses and find a way to justify them, but at the same time, maybe I’m just not looking at the context well enough?
I love following Christ. I love God with all my heart, but the Old Testament just doesn’t sit well with me. I feel lately, due to this, I’ve been a "Red Letter Christian." There’s just so much more, like Numbers 31:17-18:
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Or Hosea 13:16:
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
I feel as of lately, the way I’ve been following the Bible is that I've been looking at the Old Testament and trying to see what aligns with a loving God and Jesus's teachings. But that doesn’t justify the stuff that’s written in the Old Testament, so I don’t know—it's very confusing to me.

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What pronouns does everyone here use for God?

I personally use mostly He/Him for God but I’ve used the occasional They/Them and She/Her for Him sometimes. I personally think it’s okay to use whatever pronouns you feel comfortable with for Them since They’re genderless! I’m just curious what everyone here thinks

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u/Archer_The_Geek — 2 days ago

Iam about losing faith in Christ😭💔 I need someone to talk to me because I am in the darkest days of my life😭😭💔

It feels so heavy now 💔

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u/Clear-Ad3310 — 1 day ago
▲ 80 r/OpenChristian+1 crossposts

Am I the only one worried about upcoming "The Resurrection of the Christ" movie by mel gibson?

Before anyone misunderstands me, I'm not hating on the movie. In fact, The Passion of the Christ is one of my favorite biblical films ever made. It was powerful, emotional, and left a lasting impact on me.

That's exactly why I'm worried.

We've all seen great movies get sequels that didn't live up to the original. I really don't want this to end up like Joker 2, where a beloved first film became overshadowed by a very divisive sequel.

What also concerns me is that The Resurrection of the Christ hasn't even been released yet, but there are already controversies everywhere—about the direction, the theology, and some of the creative choices being discussed online.

I know rumors and early reports don't always reflect the final product, so I'm trying to keep an open mind. I genuinely hope Mel Gibson and everyone involved deliver something worthy of the first film.

Does anyone else feel the same way? Or are you optimistic that it'll be just as impactful as The Passion of the Christ?

u/chirroDND — 2 days ago

is it selfish/wrong to explore Christianity out of fear?

i am a queer, chronically ill person who is very afraid of their future and desperately in need of reassurance and comfort. i attended eucharist at my local church for the first time today (albeit online) and i plan to sit down and read through the bible on days i am well enough to. i really, desperately want to believe that there is someone out there who is watching over me and caring for me, but i'm aware that to be Christian is to care for others and to express that outwardly to the community. i want to be a part of the community, and i hope to attend my local church if this feels right for me - the priests seem kind and inclusive and i would like to help out if possible. but is it wrong to begin exploring faith for such selfish reasons?

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u/thisisajoshpun — 1 day ago
▲ 42 r/OpenChristian+1 crossposts

After months of discussing Islam with Muslims, I think I've found the real question. And it's no longer about theology

For a long time I thought the biggest disagreement between Christianity and Islam was about theology. I assumed the debate was mainly about the Trinity, the Incarnation, the crucifixion, or whether Scripture had been corrupted. After spending months discussing Islam with Muslims, I don't think that's the deepest issue anymore. I think the real question is much simpler. How do we know Muhammad actually received revelation from God?

I'm not asking how we know Islam is internally consistent. Im not asking why Muslims trust scholars. I'm asking what independently justifies believing Muhammad was genuinely speaking on God's behalf in the first place.

As I kept asking Muslims this, I noticed the answers almost always came back to the same things. The Quran, the hadith, scholarly tradition, consensus, preservation, Arabic, and logic.None of those answers seemed to reach the point I was asking about.Eventually I realized my question wasn't really about scholars at all. Every religion has scholars.

My question was how we distinguish recovering Muhammad's intended meaning from simply preserving a later interpretive tradition. If two people appeal to the same texts but reach different conclusions, what independent principle tells us which interpretation actually reflects revelation rather than later development?

After a long conversation one Muslim eventually told me something I appreciated because it was honest. He said he thought what I was asking for was impossible, even outside of religion.

That answer made me stop and think.

If that's true, then it seems every later interpretation ultimately depends on trusting Muhammads original claim to revelation. But then the question simply moves back one step. Why should I believe Muhammad received revelation in the first place? Christianity certainly requires interpretation. Nobody denies that. The trinity, Christology, and many doctrines involve theological reasoning. But what struck me is that Christianity begins from a public historical foundation.

The earliest Christians claimed Jesus publicly taught, was crucified, was buried, and then appeared alive again to His followers. Whether someone believes those claims is another discussion, but those claims are rooted in what the earliest community said they witnessed. The theology grows out of events they believed they experienced together.

Islam asks me to accept something different. It asks me to believe that over six centuries later Muhammad received revelation correcting what Christians had believed about Jesus all along.

That immediately raises the same question again. How do I independently know Muhammad received revelation? Appealing to the Quran seems circular because Muhammad is the source of the Quran. Appealing to hadith assumes Muhammad. Appealing to scholarly consensus assumes the community that formed around Muhammad. Appealing to later interpretation still assumes the authority that interpretation is trying to establish.

At some point every path seems to lead back to Muhammad himself. I'm not saying that automatically proves Islam false. I'm saying this seems to be the real epistemological divide between the two religions. The debate no longer feels like it is mainly about the Trinity or the crucifixion.

It feels like it comes down to a much simpler historical question. What reason do we have today to conclude that Muhammad genuinely received revelation from God instead of sincerely believing that he did? That's the question I haven't been able to get past. Id genuinely like to hear how Muslims answer it without simply appealing back to the authority that is itself under examination.

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u/Nevlak — 2 days ago