I want to ask a questions about morality and predestination in the context of sihr which seems to be a concern for many muslims.

Lets say you do everything according to what the modern islamic scholar says. You keep all five pillars of islam, you do wudu, you pray in a specific prescribed way that they teach you, with perfect movements, you dress modestly, your pronunciation is perfect in your head etc. etc.

But when you do your dua you pray to Allah to kill your enemies, to harm them or something like this. You re not violating towheed, but you are also wishing for harm.

Let's say for example, your crush fell in love with someone else, and you ask god to kill that person.

Contrast this with invoking jinn or ruhaniya to heal a person, or to repair something harmful. If this violates towheed it is considered categorically forbidden but what if it somehow doesn't, and how can it not?

Let's say for example, a ritual that uses music and dance along with "spirits" to heal a person who is suffering from depression.

Which one is more harmful and why? According to which perspective or scholar?

Is there a distinction made about curses by classical islamic scholars?

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Mental health stigma in the Muslim world is driven by the conflation of psychological distress with spiritual weakness, collectivist cultural anxieties about family reputation, and traditional supernatural explanations for illness. These traditional explanations may be both cultural perspectives on the same issues, as a way of understanding things through different perspectives, however the denial of physical explanation in favor of supernatural only answers is also a paradigm.

EDITED TO REMOVE FALSE QUOTES

Early Muslim hospitals (bimaristans) were intentionally designed to heal the nervous system through environmental exposure, and used holistic methods like diet and spiritual practices as well:

Hydrotherapy: Psychiatric wards featured central, flowing fountains. The white noise of running water was used to lower cortisol, treat anxiety, and soothe hyper-manic patients. 

Auditory Therapy (Maqamat): Physicians and musicians co-developed specialized musical scales (maqamat) played at specific times of day to balance shifting emotional humors and alleviate severe depression. 

Biophilic Architecture: Wards were built facing lush, aromatic botanical gardens. Patients were required to sit in nature, walk through greenery, and breathe fresh air as a core part of their daily clinical prescription. 

Talbinah: A warm porridge made of barley, milk, and honey. Scripturally recommended to "soothe the heart of the grieving," modern science confirms it is rich in tryptophan and highly effective for serotonin production.

Mufarrih al-Nafs: Early herbal formulations translated directly as "rejoicers of the soul." These natural adaptogens and botanical mixtures acted as pre-modern antidepressants to alleviate melancholia and severe fatigue. 

Aromatherapy: Calming essential oils, such as rosewater and camphor, were massaged into the skin or diffused to regulate sleep cycles and ease nighttime terrors. 

Psyche Training: Pioneer Abu Zayd al-Balkhi introduced cognitive restructuring. He taught patients experiencing acute phobias or panic to intentionally conjure feelings of happiness and rational safety to cancel out debilitating fears, a method modern psychology calls reciprocal inhibition.

Mental First-Aid Kits: Al-Balkhi advised healthy individuals to actively "store" positive, rational thoughts during times of peace, so they could quickly retrieve them as cognitive defense mechanisms during unexpected trauma or panic attacks.

Rejection of Physical Exorcisms: Early scholars completely banned standard medieval practices like beating, chaining, starving, or burning patients to "drive out" spirits.

Liturgical Comfort: True spiritual healing (ruqyah) was strictly restricted to the calming, non-invasive recitation of specific Quranic verses, prayers for protection (dhikr), and reminders of divine mercy to restore internal peace.

Integration, Not Substitution: Spiritual practices were strictly integrated alongside clinical medicine, never instead of it. If a patient suffered from a biochemical imbalance, spiritual counselors worked hand-in-hand with medical physicians, dieticians, and pharmacists to treat the physical brain first.

What led muslim people to disengage with this early islamic therapeutic practices?

I'm posting this as a warning to everyone, I talk bout how this kind of thing can happen all the time.

An interaction between a Reddit moderator and a user in Lebanon 18 years old male. (hereafter referred to as User XXXX) who was experiencing severe psychological distress after becoming the victim of an alleged financial fraud involving a self-proclaimed practitioner of sihr (magic). User XXXX initially reported that a substantial amount of money had been taken by an individual who claimed to communicate with jinn and perform supernatural services. The user expressed profound fear that contacting law enforcement would result in spiritual retaliation through black magic, as the alleged perpetrator possessed extensive personal information about the user and their family. The emotional impact of the incident was significant, with User XXXX describing feelings of hopelessness and suicidal ideation, demonstrating how financial victimization combined with deeply held supernatural beliefs can produce acute psychological vulnerability.

Throughout the exchange, the moderator responded by emphasizing practical intervention over supernatural explanations. User XXXX was encouraged to report the alleged crime to law enforcement, seek professional mental health assistance because of the expressed suicidal thoughts, and recognize that fear itself can become a powerful tool used by manipulators. The moderator repeatedly reassured the user that, from an Islamic theological perspective, nothing occurs outside the will of Allah, thereby attempting to counter the user's belief that the alleged magician possessed autonomous supernatural power. This reframing sought to reduce the user's anxiety while redirecting attention toward evidence-based solutions rather than continued fear of occult harm.

As the conversation progressed, User XXXX described the mechanics of the alleged fraud. The interaction reportedly began with a meeting with man called Mustafa in a coffee shop, a known gambler with family involved in for/ex trading. Initially the magician claimed to offer services free of charge, then a relatively small payment for spiritual assistance related to marital difficulties was offered up. Over time, the alleged practitioner requested increasingly larger sums of money, citing ritual necessities, including the purchase of gold, as well as repeated personal emergencies involving a supposedly gravely ill daughter. Each request was accompanied by promises that the money would be repaid, eventually totaling approximately $3,000, or 268,650,000 Lebanese Pounds. Scheduled meetings for repayment were repeatedly postponed until communication largely ceased. The user also described being shown purported testimonials from satisfied clients and claimed evidence of successful supernatural practices, factors that contributed to establishing trust and reinforcing the perceived legitimacy of the practitioner.

The moderator identified these behaviors as characteristic indicators of confidence fraud, including incremental financial requests, emotional manipulation, fabricated family emergencies, and the presentation of social proof to build credibility. Additional discussion focused on the alleged perpetrator's willingness to provide identification documents and claims of influential family connections, which initially increased the victim's confidence but were subsequently interpreted as potential techniques for fostering trust rather than evidence of legitimacy. The moderator explained that such tactics are commonly employed by con artists to lower skepticism and encourage continued financial investment from victims.

The exchange illustrates the intersection of religious belief, psychological distress, and fraudulent exploitation. The alleged scam relied not only on financial deception but also on exploiting the user's emotional dependence, marital concerns, and belief in supernatural forces. These factors contributed to a heightened state of fear that initially discouraged formal reporting and increased the user's reliance on the alleged practitioner. The moderator's responses functioned as an informal form of crisis intervention by validating the user's emotional suffering while simultaneously challenging irrational fears, encouraging institutional avenues for justice, and reframing the experience as criminal victimization rather than evidence of successful supernatural influence. The conversation ultimately demonstrates how online communities can serve as spaces for both emotional support and practical guidance when individuals experience crises involving deception, religious belief, and mental health.

In a cult there is a tendency toward absolute authority which creates environments which are ripe for exploitation and abuse. Often we are presented with the notion that only a special person, or a skilled elder or master can offer you proper guidance, or teach you the correct way.

Confusingly there is some truth to the notion that learning from a person who is already well versed in a subject is a better way to learn than pure trial and error on your part. For example I am a self taught Guitarist, and it took me far longer to excel and understand certain concepts because I didn't follow a system, or have a teacher and mentor to guide me and answer questions for me. But teaching is not the same as demanding obedience. Nor is having codes of conduct. Teachers also make money.

But on the contrary I have met and known many many people who grew up in, or joined various kinds of cults. Those groups required a kind of subservience that ultimately led to abuse and harm. I have met so many different kinds of people from various class and race backgrounds and no one was immune to this kind of exploitation. I have heard of sufi masters who are abusers, and salafi cults which isolate their members, musical schools who control your whole life, and magical orders who require you to do disgusting things and film you for black mail etc. The list of horrible things goes on and on. But usually the power seeking aspect is the same.

For people who are curious about the supernatural and about religion or spirituality this can be a veritable field of landmines to navigate. This is why I try to encourage people to be skeptical, and to engage in debate, and to look to academics to learn about these topics. Not to take any single person as your authority, make sure there is transparency and accountability.

If there are members of communities who are non-academics and want to share their insights you should hear what they have to say, but as soon as you are required to pay for access to secret information, or services, you should be suspicious. Also if they shame you, you should be skeptical, it's usually a kind of psychological manipulation. (my opinion)

Some of this stuff seems like its not as a big deal as it starts as mild bullying, public shaming, then quickly become physical beatings of children, and forced isolation or ostracization, control of your finances, stuff like that escalates over time. Testing the boundaries of what is ok to do to you is part of programming you.

These dynamics can even exist within abusive families, which can operate like small cults.

The BITE Model of Authoritarian Control developed by sociologists:

B - Behavior Control: Dictating clothing, diet, sleep schedules, financial choices, and forcing rewards/punishments.

I - Information Control: Forbidding members from reading critical news, visiting specific websites, or speaking to ex-members.

T - Thought Control: Using repetitive chanting, loaded language, or black-and-white thinking to block critical thoughts.

E - Emotion Control: Instilling deep, irrational fears of leaving, and weaponizing toxic shame or guilt to maintain compliance.

Feel free to share your personal experiences here, and advice for people navigating this experience.

How do you know if you are in a cult?

What are warning signs of abuse?

How to help yourself or others who need to escape these situation?

What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

sound/music as a supernatural force is a prominent feature in the mythologies of the prophets in islam. most of the time it is seen as a good thing, but there are also versions, of sound being neutral or negative or adversarial, just as the jinn. 

For example:

Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital! (Surah Al-jinn 72:1)

listened to melody, taghanni, recital, music

"And We gave Dawood the Psalms (Zabur)... We subjected the mountains to praise with him evening and morning, and the birds gathered together..." (Surah Sad 38:18-19)

This gift is the Zabur, translated universally as the Psalms, which are, by definition, sacred poems meant to be sung and performed to music. 

later mentioned in hadith: "You have been given a mizmar (same root as Zabur)(flute/musical pipe) from the musical instruments of the family of Dawood."(Sahih al-Bukhari)

And Solomon succeeded David and said, "O people, we have been taught the language of birds and have been given of all things; indeed, this is the clear grace." Surat An-Naml  27:16

Bird song is pitch, frequency, sounds aka music.

Lo! We subdued the hills to hymn the praises (of their Lord) with him at nightfall and sunrise, And the birds gathered together; all joined in singing with him. (Surah Sad, 38:18-19)

Hymns, birds, music.

"I design for you from clay that which is like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it (blow into it like a flute), and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah." (Surah Ali 'Imran, 3:49)

Breath, blown, flute -like. music

"Then We inspired Musa, saying: 'Strike (beat a percussive rhythm) with your staff the sea.' And it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain." (Surah Ash-Shu'ara, 26:63)

Beat, pulse, sound waves, music

And the awful sonic blast (overwhelming frequency) overtook those who had wronged, and they became ruined, motionless corpses in their homes." (Surah Hud, 11:67)

sonic boom, sounds, frequency, music

"And the Trumpet will be blown (played via breath), and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will fall dead except whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown again, and at once they will be standing, looking on." (Surah Az-Zumar, 39:68)

an instrument, trumpet, blown, breath, music

"He is not one of us who does not recite the Qur'an with a melodious/pleasant voice."  (Sahih al-Bukhari 7527)

The Arabic text uses the word yataghanna (يتغنى), which is often translated as "recite with melody," "sing," or "beautify the voice" melody, music.

Due to the large amount of people breaking rules, spam, unrelated posts, and con artists lurking and soliciting, we have changed to restricted access:

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Adab (Arabic: أدب) refers to Islamic etiquette, encompassing good manners, courtesy, respect, and proper behavior in all aspects of life. Often translated as "refinement" or "decency," it guides moral conduct and interpersonal interactions, reflecting a person's inner character through correct social and aesthetic forms

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