u/Opposite-to-West

It's striking how much she and Beren look alike. Unfortunately, I could not buy Gizem Emre as Kosem's sister physically.

While I am on the subject, they could have gone all Ming Dynasty plot (2019) in which the two sisters grow up to become rivals despite their tragic history together, instead of having Kosem commit involuntary fratricide (which she forgets about during season two when Murad does the same to Kasim and almost Ibrahim). It would have been a good idea to reminisce about what she herself previously did. Instead, the show introduced drama after drama without taking into consideration why, when, and how this event is going to affect their character later on.

Additionally, it might offer more substance than Gulbahar x Kosem, especially due to the time jump when we have no idea what has been occurring in the last decade or so.

Although I have liked other projects from both actors, I could just not buy them as a couple with good chemistry in MCK. The show provided many emotionally intensive and sensual scenes, yet in the end it felt rather meh.

Apart from that, their respective characters looked 27-31 while they were meant to play very young teenagers at the beginning of their journey together.

I can’t help but think that the show was better off shifting to a platonic love story or a friendship arc for these two as they became adults.

Title.

I am not sure if the admin is aware of how sadistic this exact thumbnail makes Suleyman look. If I was not a frequent viewer and came across this, I would be distraught. The contrast between him smiling and laughing (from another scene) to her bathing and crying in the hammam is trigger some.

What happened to Victoria and how it was depicted is slightly different from the other narrative of other concubines and their perspectives. For the most part they appear joyous and content to be chosen. She wasn’t.

I don’t think it’s incidental to be framing their thumbnail in this way, although I am not sure the exact reason why. Whether it is meant to be taken as a macho moment for Suleyman (which I don’t believe) or that you are exactly meant to be disgusted by his action.

The majority of watchers view the actions, plots, and narrative of the show through Hurrem’s lens. However, her apologists (not counting all of her fans as homogeneous) don’t notice when their bias towards her (or rather their bias against Mahidevran) suppresses them from inspecting her actions further. On the surface, someone might watch this scene and view Hurrem’s action as almost noble and become frustrated by Mahidevran’s lack of apologetic tone. Yet, they forget who sought out who, and the reason why. I was rather frustrated by the producers making Mahidevran still look like a bitter woman after all these years and what she inflicted on others. Now, I know I was being unrealistic with her trajectory, and I especially missed what was happening in that scene from her perspective and from the lens of an outsider. Whether or not the writers intended it to be this way, Mahidevran is not the one meant to be analyzed because she is not the one seeking anything. It is solely in the burden of the one seeking forgiveness to do just that.

The first thing to cover is the misleading claim that because Hurrem sought forgiveness, she regretted, pitied, or reflected on what she did. In this particular episode (133), Hurrem is dealing with the pain of a terminal illness. As her health continues to get worse, she is forced to face death in an unprecedented way because she can not fight it away. We never get a scene in which Hurrem is particularly tormented for a second for what the consequences that came with Mustafa’s death brought to Mahidevran. In a previous episode, she was clear on what she was not willing to feel. Hurrem explicitly told her daughter not to waste her time pitying Mahidevran. She is clear in her explanation; had the tables been turned, their rival would not feel bad for them.

In a typical arc of psychological decompression, a character who finally secures safety after years of trauma and being in survival mode might experience a collapse of their armor. With the threats gone, guilt can finally catch up, forced to the surface because the survival mechanisms are no longer needed. She’s not even willing to let herself, let alone her child, feel pity. Before episode 133, we get no indication of change or reflection towards Mahidevran specifically. There was a proxy scene where she was conversing with Gulfem on the general things they went through, but not much to go off of. Commenters have also shared sentiments in which they interpreted Hurrem’s visit to Mahidevran as self-reflection, yet we have been given no reason to believe this, unless you just decide to interpret her words in your own way.

Hurrem is scared for her afterlife (which is why she presses her rights), and Hurrem wants closure. That’s about it. There is nothing noble about it, it’s just a normal human reaction to a looming death. She doesn’t center her own doings. She speaks of “we” or what they did as a collective to each other.

She did not go on a quest to present herself as someone asking for forgiveness. She was on a quest to acquire it. That is something people may not pay attention to.

When someone is truly on a quest to ask for forgiveness, the power dynamic shifts entirely to the victim. The person asking presents themselves vulnerably, lays out their shame, and accepts that they have no control over the outcome. They accept that the answer might be "No," because the focus is on the victim's right to their pain. Hurrem is not doing that. Apart from imposing herself in someone’s house uninvited, if Hurrem were genuinely just asking, she would have stated her piece, and if Mahidevran remained silent or bitter, Hurrem would have bowed her head and accepted that as her punishment. But because she is there to acquire it, she cannot leave empty-handed. We do, however, see her tell Mahidevran that she forgives her (as if she asked) before asking for forgiveness herself, placing a burden on the person she wants something from.

She knew Mahidevran was gonna bring up Mustafa, to which she could then counterargue for her sons, Cihangir and Mehmed. I will agree with Mahi, she could sniff her from a mile away. She went there anticipating two reactions in her favor. Either she gets what she wants, and Mahidevran grants her helallik, or her former rival refuses to give it to her to then she can claim to God or comfort herself in her dying minutes, “I repented, and she refused.”

One last thing to cover, and perhaps something I also failed to previously understand is that Mahidevran doesn’t owe her even a cup of water. Why would Mahidevran ask for forgiveness? Is there something she did that she regrets enough to seek forgiveness? No. Did she take her legs to someone’s house and ask for anything? Also no. So, why are we expecting an unrealistic outcome from her? She is not the seeker, she is the one being sought after. She didn't initiate this meeting. She didn't send a letter. She didn't travel across the empire. She was sitting in her own home, minding her own business, living with the consequences of her choices. Completely fine with never asking for forgiveness and dying this way.

To ask for forgiveness, you have to actually feel bad about what you did. Mahidevran does not. In her mind, every single thing she did was defensive in her perspective. Her son is dead. Her status is gone. She is already living in her own version of purgatory. Because she has already lost everything that mattered to her on earth, she has nothing left to fear. She doesn't need to clean the road to a comfortable death. She likely already accepted her fate.

When Mahidevran accuses Hurrem of orchestrating Mustafa's execution, Hurrem doesn't show any remorseful facial expression (quite the opposite). She immediately pivots and brings up her own dead sons. She doesn’t feel bad either, which is fine, but then this is not about seeking sincere forgiveness. She is imposing her presence on someone who doesn’t want to see her and has never picked up ink and paper to express anything positive towards her. Which is more like entitlement than anything.

The bare minimum of decency in their relationship is leaving the other person alone. By staying in Bursa and living out her life in quiet, resentful exile, Mahidevran indirectly granted Hurrem a courtesy that Hurrem ultimately never bothered to return: she allowed her enemy to live without being forced to manage her victim’s emotions.

I had hoped for Helena to remain on the show even if it was as Mustafa’s consort. I will admit that they had one of the best (if not THE best) chemistry among his love interests although Mustafa did start being interested in her because it was a “game.”

I really appreciated Hurrem giving her advice when she was getting picked on as well.

However, another part of me is happy she’s the one who got away. Unless the producers were planning to go with a “fallen angel” archetype, the system would have devoured her.

Every time someone says Mustafa was a Gary Stu, I think of her and remember he wasn’t. He was quite manipulative with many flaws.

Ashley also looks like the blonde version of Mihrimah now that I look at her more closely.

We barely got to see much of him but watching his mother run after his carriage just broke me in a thousand pieces.

He was a victim of this law of executing males in a male line and his grandfather removing any threat to the stability of his reign and by extension himself. His only fault was being guilty by association.

The following question is quite serious but I’ll ask it anyways: Would you have made it to the end of the show if you watch literal infants and young children being explicitly depicted as being strangled? (It’s doesn’t have to be graphic but the camera pacing out of frame with sounds remaining?)

Although we saw a glimpse from Bayezid’s sons, they weren’t as young as lets Defne’s son. Would you have continued to understand and like Suleyman? Knowing that he ordered something and seeing an infant/or young child being executing is another. In the former, at least your mind isn’t outright playing what happened to them.

I absolutely hate that they made Nurbanu one of the reasons behind the Defne’s son death. Let Suleyman be the sole culprit.

What if she had succeeded at forcing him to marry her?

My personal opinion is he wouldn’t be happy about the union and likely would never come to see her as anything but a little girl he married but I don’t think he would have disrespected her or intentionally made her unhappy.

This discussion was likely the most compelling of season four concerning Hürrem and the future of her children. Surely, she and everyone knew the consequences of Mustafa taking the throne and one can sympathize with her on some of the things she did. However, what after that?

She promised Cihangir that she would never allow harm to come to him as long as one of her sons is on the throne. Yet, as Valide Sultan, even then she would not hold the absolute power to counteract a Sultan’s command, then maternal influence will be her primary instrument. Just like Mustafa’s promises, it’s not a guarantee. No one is bigger than the program and the combat to maintain power does not end with securing the throne.

Cihangir does not need to rebel, suspicion is enough to get him executed by one of his full brothers. Even if he’s not going to be executed as right away as he could if Mustafa took the throne, must he then live with a fear of death looming over his head with a full brother as ruler?

Why is he then supporting Mustafa?

I do not think Cihangir was ignorant or oblivious. Yes, he did greatly love Mustafa and this is the reason he was supporting him, not because he genuinely believed Mustafa was going to spare him (those were wishes not hard truths).

He wanted the one person who treated him normally on the throne. He could too have been dealing with disassociating himself from the thought of dying by Mustafa’s hand but he always kinda knew it could happen. And it must be a complicated situation for someone to make peace with. His mother never gave him a satisfying reason to be on her side either.

This post is not going try to alleviate Suleyman of his wrongdoings or try to deflect the conversation towards “I hated this plot because it had nothing to do with history.” Frankly, such arguments are as annoying as Mehmed Fetihler Sultanı or Kuruluş (whatever it is at this point) fans being angry because “harem drama” gets about 10-20 minutes of screen time out of a two hours running episode.

Now that that’s out of the way. I just have to say the hate this female character gets for the most unproblematic reasons is beyond me. Not liking her is one thing (there’s not much to the character to like), hating her is another. Mind you, she didn’t even do anything to anyone.

It goes to show that there really are people out there that can sit and sympathize with a man who has executed who ever is on his path (his children, included) and partook in a system that deprives women of meaningful consent but the worst thing a female character can do is being annoying and a spoiled brat. Someone was caring for her being a “brat” while being a captive for a sadistic man who enjoyed overpowering her?

Also, it’s awfully unfortunate that some of Hürrem fans hate her for the previous reasons. After popping out the “she was a slave and watched her family died in front of her” reason for the million time. Unless we are then regarding suffering and bondage as a competition.

It’s clear Isabella trauma bonded with Suleyman and he enjoyed both being wanted and hated by her. It’s sickening but nothing unusual on his part.