u/Rameipem

I know this happens basically everywhere, not just on the Forsaken community. Believe me, I been through that in many other contexts before. It's still very annoying to experience that though, especially considering how passionate I am at Forsaken and how much mental effort I've put into this game and my posts about it. It comes into a point where I start considering the possibility of some comments actually just being ragebait.

There were many different comments that annoyed me over the course of my posts over different accounts and platforms, but the worst one certainly is the "skill issue", because not only does it completely ignore the content of my claims, it also assumes something that most of the time isn't factually true. Even if I were to lack skill in a specific area, they don't actually engage in any argumentation or gaming advice; they don't say what I might be doing wrong, they just say I lack skill, as if there wasn't any context at all.

Don't mean to glaze myself (albeit I might, inevitably), but I'm not just a pro at Forsaken, I am THE pro at Forsaken. I make some sweats at the game look like noobs. There are even friends of mine who think I'm better than meatkill. I have a really good read at what's going on on a match most of the time. When somebody says "skill issue" so vaguely, it becomes bold considering I already have so much skill in this game that it usually becomes about numbers.

The "skill issue" becomes even more ironic when it's considering that I struggle in one role (survivor or killer) but that I make any player from the opposite role struggle in the exact same way.

When I write a post about Forsaken's balancing, I don't just write off my opinion, I try my best to be technical and objective about it; I use numbers, I lay off reliable strategies, I argue based on hundreds or thousands of rounds of experiencing the same thing. Yet people lack the expertise on Forsaken to realize how sophisticated my claims truly are, so they treat as if I was just talking off of my ass and "obviously wrong about it, never let bro cook again", and so not only do they leave a downvote, they don't even engage with the argument minimally. Again, I know this happens all over Reddit, but it doesn't stop being annoying.

I've had a person saying that stuns don't matter in a chase and there are other worries for the "meta", and another that dismissed my complaints about overtuned survivors because of "that one good player made you mad" (which is a claim they took from their own head), and another that said Forsaken devs are "adding weaknesses and strenghts to characters" as if it didn't matter that I was attempting to make a balancing claim. It's sad that people don't actually engage with my arguments, it doesn't matter that they, my arguments, have real depth to them.

This is something that me and others, including famous Forsaken balancing youtuber Craft, want to see implemented in the game. I've been arguing for this multiple times, even prior to Craft. This change doesn't change anything about gameplay, yet it is one of the healthiest changes I think Forsaken can make.

Some defend that the killer should already win the round by going to LMS. This is good and I definitely support that, but if that's somehow problematic, a good alternative could be just granting a tie between the survivor and the killer.

Keep in mind that I'm specifically referring to the points in the Stats menu. For some, it might feel meaningless and whatever, but, for those who take it seriously, it really means a lot.

I'll provide a list of reasons for why killers should not lose a match if they don't kill the survivor in LMS.

1. Last Man Standing is very survivor-sided.

This is by far the biggest reason why I think it should be implemented.

If you look at 1v1s done by competitive players, such as the traditional Glasshouses format, you know that killers, even the ones who are exceptionally good, often can't kill a good full health survivor within 1 minute and 13 seconds, and that's considering that the 1v1 starts at a reasonably close position (rather than graveyard vs mansion on Yorick's kinda position) and the survivor often can't use items (ex. Bloxy Cola); and especially considering that many survivors have strong stalling tools, and that mobility/tracking abilities can be on cooldown at the start of Last Man Standing.

This means that, in order to win LMS against good players in many situations, the killer has to play perfectly, which isn't always a matter of skill like many stupid people like to think. Sometimes you are forced to land abilities that you can't guarantee to land, and also you are forced to dodge stuns (which also aren't always a guarantee. Even the best and most focused players can be stunned by a Shedletsky they're chasing). Sometimes you get an amazing chase starter but you lose the stamina advantage because of the m1 speed boosts and you don't have time to reset chase, which might be enough to make you lose LMS.

You can't even guarantee a low health survivor for LMS in a killer round where you're dominating, because there are medkits in the game, which is a random, unpredictable item that grants full or almost full HP. Unless you make the LMS system ACTUALLY not tight for the killer, especially if they had tons of time prior, I don't see why not just not grant a loss at all upon reaching this stage as killer.

LMS is often a blessing for really good players, a high chance of winning the round. Many players even purposefully ignore their team dying in hopes of achieving LMS. This is twisted, and often done by players who aren't actually good enough to survive LMS, whereas the person who could is surviving way more than the LMS timer in a solo chase but they end up dying because the killer has enough time to kill them.

Besides, there are killers who often might not even be able to find the survivor in LMS (you guys know exactly who I'm talking about!). For a system that's so unfair for what should be the power role of the game, I think it leaves a bad, unrepresentative mark in someone's stats.

It becomes even more problematic when you see that, if there are only 2 non-AFK players at the start of a round, LMS starts immediately, and that LMS can be forced outside of the killer's control. I've had rounds I lost as killer because it was an immediate LMS, or because someone left right before LMS, and I had to deal with a high health survivor on the other side of the map I wasn't even planning to leave last.

Also, you can lose LMS because of exploiters. Not everybody knows you can just leave the server right before it ends in order not to register a loss.

For a game that's already known for being very unbalanced, having an unbalanced system right on the end of a match determine a killer loss, even if the killer sweated hard, feels so unnecessary.

2. Last Man Standing can't "just" become more killer-sided.

Some might suggest increasing the timer, or grant buffs for the killers.

Increasing the timer isn't necessarily a good idea, considering that the iconic LMS song would need to be extended along with it, which could sound odd or off. Buffs for some killers might be good and solve most issues, but it could become overkill for casual players who already fear being a survivor in LMS.

3. This would alleviate a LOT of killer anxiety in people.

There are so many players who fear losing a match as killer specifically because of LMS, myself included. It's not uncommon to find killers who will target a specific survivor right before LMS just because they have more time and know they might lose if they leave them to LMS, whether it's because they are using a broken survivor or because they are a skilled player, or both.

I recently started over in Forsaken in a brand new account because of issues with my older Roblox account. I grinded for Milestone 4 in half of the killer roster. Every single killer loss I had, except for a few (but not most of) my losses with Azure, was because of LMS. Every killer round I had when I started on this new account, I assumed I was on high chances of losing on LMS, and indeed I was right. I often don't enjoy the LMS theme because I kill a survivor so fast as I left them with the lowest HP before entering LMS 😅. I even came into the point of thinking every person with a high amounts of player points or using a Golden skin is a high threat to me winning as killer, even though I still win against them manageably the vast majority of the time. Basically, LMS traumatized me even though I win the majority of time.

I know dead on that I would not be this anxious and paranoid if it wasn't for LMS. I have had so many traumatic matches where the LMS survivor felt untouchable or that I came close to killing them but one mistake or two costed everything, even if I dominated the round and would certainly dominate them if I had just a bit more time.

Fun fact, my first killer round ever in Forsaken, I lost it because of LMS. I killed many survivors as Slasher, but a Guest survived LMS after almost dying.

4. This would heavily alleviate the skill disparity problem.

Killer rounds are a player's special round. They are on the power role, they control the match, they have the fun of playing a much more dynamic character in a match, and being the center of it.

However, sometimes this is ruined by one good or slick player on the survivor team, which is also sometimes a secret as they might be hiding their stats. I don't hide my stats, but I am one of these ruiners of killer rounds, just because I'm really good at the game and that I try to be very sweaty in most rounds. I've won countless games because of LMS, especially considering that my teammates often die in under 40 seconds regardless of whether I effectively help them or not.

Also, notice how better players are more likely to be in LMS since they might be better at hiding away or not lead you to target them.

I feel guilty for being this smurf I am, I really do. I don't like to see players struggling to kill me and only me, and losing because of that. But there's not really much I can do about it without there being pro servers. I'd accept not ruining killer rounds anymore with this new implementation, especially if they add pro servers and I ever want to keep playing on a more casual setting rather than committing to said pro servers.

Sure, some really good players do bring along sweaty friends to play public lobby matches with. I do have some sweaty friends I sometimes play with. However, not only do they compose a much higher chunk of the survivor team, which isn't always as sufficient as being on full health on LMS (trust me, many of my sweaty friends feel like liabilities sometimes, especially when it's a tough match for the survivor team), but also there's this awkward dynamic where one doesn't leave the other for LMS because they know they'll probably lose if they do.

5. There is just one weak survivor who got away, not a big deal.

If we assume that the killer is indeed the power role, then there being only one survivor after many died would be mathematically/logically inferior to the killer.

The killer has already massacred almost everybody. Failing to kill one in an unfavorable system and still gaining a full loss doesn't feel fair.

6. LMS is a "theatrical event to/by the Spectre", it shouldn't be in the survivor's favor, so it shouldn't grant the survivor a win by surviving it.

LMS isn't just a match with one survivor remaining, it's a whole event. The chase themes with layers get replaced by a universal, fast-paced intense song; the sky and overall luminosity changes color because of the Spectre; and the timer is set to exactly 1:13 (with variations on special LMSes), regardless of whether the killer had less or more time prior to LMS. For such an intense moment, the killer should feel rewarded already, rather than a high-stakes chore which is how it often feels on the current system.

When I say "it shouldn't be in the survivor's favor", I don't necessarily mean the survivor must be able to be easily killed. I mean that the survivor shouldn't crave to stay on LMS for a cheap win with cheap tricks. If surviving LMS doesn't grant a win for the survivor, a survivor will not desire to be in LMS, and therefore this will increase in some capacity the demand for teamwork, which this game heavily lacks compared to other asym titles like Die of Death.

For some, it feels very shameful to lose in LMS as killer. This would not be too bad if you couldn't lose in LMS as killer. It would also open more doors for enjoying LMS rather than needing to concentrate hard on it specifically.

7. Other asyms don't have this harsh number in the same situation.

Die of Death doesn't have a loss recording system, only a winning one.

Bite by Night didn't even have a stats recording system, unless I somehow missed it.

Never played Dead by Daylight, but apparently you don't lose if you reach LMS as killer, even if you fail to kill said last survivor in time.

I know I'm going to be downvoted hard, I don't care. Just please take my argument seriously and actually try to understand my points if you think Azure is strong and is going to comment to try to invalidate my points.

Azure is underpowered, and undoubtedly the worst killer in the game. However, it's important to note that this is only true against very high skill survivors, which surprisingly goes beyond the skill of many "competitive" players. I've been insisting on this, the idea (fact) that Azure is weak, yet I haven't met a single Azure player or readed any counter-argument that managed to prove me otherwise.

Many would think that Azure's biggest weakness is the fact he has the worst tracking capabilities out of all the killers, but I don't agree. It's only a punch in the stomach for Azure, the cherry on top of Azure's unviability, especially considering his other weakness.

Slasher and c00lkidd are almost as bad as Azure tracking-wise (they are clearly better, but not by a much larger margin. With all of them, you can't always plan your targets, and sometimes survivors use recovery abilities/items after you lost them), but they both possess something that Azure doesn't: they are decent rushdowns.

I long realized that Azure's actual biggest weakness is the fact that he's bad at a raw chase. He's too slow and only has Enstrangle to help catching up. Survivors who have good positioning, pathing and stamina management can simply avoid the plants, as any small loop/checkspot will work and Azure will not be able to land a single m1 (yes, I'm talking stuff smaller than the piano from Bloodfell Manor). Azure's map control doesn't matter because he's not fast enough to dominate areas of the map without plants, given how every single map in the game has looping/checkspot alternatives that are sufficient against Azure's runspeed and limit of plants. If anything, Azure is a memory skill check for the survivor to acknowledge which plants are in the map, their placement order, and how to path in order to avoid them.

Azure is so slow that, if you get the best possible chase starter against a survivor with good pathing, you are just going to be able to land a single m1, maybe 2, right before losing the stamina advantage. Although this is also true for other very slow killers who lack a dash ability, those being John Doe and 1x1x1x1, Azure is the only one who struggles to make up for it.

John Doe can apply a lot of damage through his spikes, can zone a survivor, and can also gain speed from spikes and footprints; whilst 1x4 can stun and apply heavy damage with Entanglement, and Mass Infection can be used to zone and apply heavy damage. Azure can't do anything if he lost the stamina advantage, especially if the survivor being chased gets behind a wall.

Yes, there is Enstrangle, and it is a good ability if used correctly. However, it can be hard to land (I don't think there is any way to guarantee landing it, but, if there is it would involve some godly aiming), doesn't go through walls and can be bodyblocked. Also, sentinels can cancel it after you grabbed someone, which is really stupid considering the fact you are positionally vulnerable during its long wind-up.

Besides, even if you do land Enstrangle and throw the survivor into a place where they'll stack Atropa, all you're going to give is high damage, possibly half of the survivor's health, but you are going to lose the stamina advantage after that, and will have to land another Enstrangle; you better hope the survivor you are chasing doesn't get healed by an Elliot meantime.

Closing the loop with plants doesn't always work, as not all checkspots are corners. The survivor can just go to an altenative clear loop, and such alternative loop sometimes is the area where there used to be a plant. Also, if you use plants to corner survivors who can use Undetectable, they might get away without triggering the plants!

Golem is solid, although it doesn't make up for Azure's flaws. It can be used both as a zoning tool or a better rushdown option against a single greater threat in the match. If only it lasted way longer…

Every killer in the game can destroy even the best of survivor players when it's even a semi-competent player using them. Just look at the amount of pressure they all give! However, Azure is so bad that the only conceivable way that I can see this happening is if they are a god at landing Enstrangle (or if they are just too lucky with it, of course). I know there isn't any undiscovered tech with Azure that secretly makes up for his lackluster kit, especially given how you can lose a survivor when switching from Azure to Golem or vice-versa (it makes harder for the Azure player to come up with an extraordinary plan involving Golem).

I've seen a few people suggesting this, that loss condition shouldn't count LMS, and honestly I think such a change would be really healthy, for multiple reasons. I'm gonna argue in favor of its implementation.

First and foremost, LMS is super survivor-sided. It comes into a point where even the most experienced killers know it's extremely risky to leave a full health survivor to LMS. 1:13 s super tight, considering you might have to get to the other side of the map, they will keep gaining speed from your m1s and they might have some stalling tool. And even if you leave them low for LMS, there is a significant chance they'll just use a medkit, and then you'll have to deal with them on full health on LMS. Trust me when I say LMS wouldn't be so bad if it lasted just 30 seconds more, but I'm not necessarily vouching for the rebalancing of LMS.

Also, since there are no pro servers, sometimes killers' efforts are denied by a single secretly good player. I get smurfing guilt for dominating a killer in LMS, since I can't not be good at the game. They should've won, but they didn't solely because of me. This also happened to me, where I should've won, but I didn't because of 1 guy I didn't know was tricky. This gets worse because of the fact that better players might hide away waiting for LMS, or the killer switches but ends up with them on LMS.

I win the greatest majority of my killer games, but my killer anxiety is still really high, and I know most of it comes from LMS. I get paranoid of leaving a full health survivor on LMS, I really do. My killer anxiety would be deeply alleviated if they made so that you don't lose if you don't kill in LMS, as most of my losses are because of some sneaky semi-competent or lucky guy on LMS, where 1 silly mistake costed everything. It gets so bad I overestimate everybody who has more than 10k Player Points.

This wouldn't be much of a problem if LMS didn't reduce the timer to the unfairly survivor-sided 1:13. Since it does, I think they should rework loss condition.

If LMS didn't affect your stats so negatively, I think it would be better. But should it tho? Could I just be overreacting to stats?

It's the fact that Forsaken contains a competitive vocabulary despite not being balanced around competitive play at all. What I'm about to present might seem stupid and silly, but I swear it's not, it's an actual psychological impact that Forsaken has on players.

I'm talking about the stats system and the round ending screen. If the killer doesn't manage to kill everybody in a match, he "loses", which makes no sense considering how insanely unbalanced this game is. I don't think I need to explain how unbalanced Forsaken is, if you have doubts just go watch meatkill's video on it being a balancing mess (titled "Forsaken Is A Balancing Mess."). You might "lose" because you left a full health [pick any OP survivor] with a Bloxy Cola on the other side of a heavily survivor-sided map when your abilities are on cooldown, even if you are an actual tryhard at the game.

Killers are incentivized to kill everybody in the time frame of a round in order to "win", instead of being incentivized to cherish every kill as a "win". The weight behind a killer's back is increased by the fact that, if they don't kill every single survivor in a match, not only is a permanent "loss" number going to be present in their stats, but also because they might feel ashamed or be humiliated by someone else over a ""loss"", even though "losing" in this game isn't always a reflection of player skill, heck no it is not! I play on brazilian servers, and I seen multiple people who were worried about "losing" (specifically this word), and I imagine they wouldn't have such a killer anxiety if you didn't have to carry the weight of """losing""". The current system opens up doors to create an unhealthy competitive sentiment.

Even if Forsaken didn't have any balancing changes whatsoever, I imagine this unhealthy competitive spirit would be lessened by a lot if they changed the vocabulary from round ending and stat display to be more casual friendly, and maybe move the current system to a possible future "Ranked" setting. Instead of "the survivors won", "the last survivor won" and "the killer won"; it could be changed to something like "some survived", "the last one survived" and "all survivors died". And stats changed to either remove the display of "losses" (especially on the killer side) or change their words aswell as the others. From "survivor wins" to "rounds survived", "survivor losses" to "rounds died", "killer wins" to "rounds wiped", and "killer losses" to "rounds not wiped" (possibly a fun "rounds died" on the killer category 😆). LMS is so bad I'd add an exclusive stat for it for when the killer doesn't kill on it.

When people talk about Forsaken's balancing, they often complain about specific characters or the map design. However, these problems are made much worse because of the fact that Forsaken has a poor time scaling system.

In some matches, the timer feels way too tight, but in others it feels like the killer has an eternity of available time to kill you, even though you are not playing a highly endurant sentinel like Guest or Shed. Both of these occasions feel unfair, although they benefit the opposite roles.

It's super frustrating when your teammates die super fast, and now you have 2 or 3 minutes to be chased by 1x4 (trust me, this happens ALL the time, especially when I play Dusekkar. And then the dumbass who's gonna be on LMS is not gonna try to help me, and if he does he's not gonna be capable of because he's not used to landing his abilities. After I die, he proceeds to die easily). But it's also super frustrating when you sweat hard against a semi-competent team, finally kill that survivor, and then you get those meaningless 45 extra seconds on a drained clock to kill a full health Guest on the other side of the map when your abilities are on cooldown.

The recent change where there's less time with less survivors is a good thing that even I requested before it was a thing, but it was executed very poorly. Having 2 minutes and a half with 3 survivors, the survivors need to play like a comp team, but 4 minutes with 8 survivors is just not enough, especially if it's in a large map.

Also, Last Man Standing is flawed. 1:13 is not enough to kill a full health sentinel or survivalist on the other side of the map, it's tight even if you manage to land all of your abilities and manage stamina perfectly.

My idea to fix or mitigate this issue is to make the timer dynamic, rather than standardized. So changes depending not only on the number of survivors, but what survivors are in the match, what killer it is, what map it is (BrandonWorks is so bad that it needs 1 or 2 more minutes to feel fair), the health of survivors after killing someone, and the distance of survivors after killing someone. For Last Man Standing, the killer could give more damage based on what survivor it is, how much health they have and possibly how distant they were at the start of Last Man Standing.

The clock needs to be reworked.

Only help players who you judge worth helping, and pleeease do so intelligently. Sometimes you are the most valuable asset on your team, and by "helping" you are actually risking to miss and misposition yourself whilst having your abilities on cooldown, whereas if you don't miss the teammate you were trying to help will barely survive more; and sometimes you do land but the killer has so much time that switching to you becomes viable due to your bad positioning in order to use an ability. But some other times you are not the most valuable asset of your team and you just wait in the corner for LMS whilst the best player gets chased with an insane amount of time (such as between 2:30 to 3:30) on their back, then they die after lasting way more than 1:13, and you die on LMS.

The playerbase of Forsaken in public lobbies is composed of people who often are insanely stupid and have a terrible sense of security. The irony is, these players are often absolute menaces as killer, but then they are the biggest lobotomites as survivors. So many players, the first thing they ever do in a match is go to a generator, then the killer gets them with a heavy attack which should have been completely avoidable. They are almost always sentinels, lobbies are full of sentinels, but if they are supports, they play them really badly. The last Elliot I played with got to low HP, then the killer chased me for 2 or 3 minutes, he gave me no heals, and then the killer killed the Elliot with still no heals when I was only 10 HP, and somehow I still won LMS.

Shedletsky thrives at chase endurance, sometimes you waste that by trying to help somebody else. Guest risks taking chip damage when using his abilities, who aren't going to be compensated by a Builderman because there is never a Builderman to make up for your assistance. Dusekkar gets slowed during his abilities, especially Spawn Protection, so be extra careful.

Don't help liabilities. Look if their pathing can be good, look if they were catch doing a generator at a moment they shouldn't, look if they will have done the same for you (seriously, how often do Guests use charge for you? How often do the sentinels who take over your lobbies care about you as much as you care about them?), look if you are going to risk yourself way too much for those who don't deserve. You can't always be the hero, sometimes you just gotta worry about prioritizing to survive it yourself. Leaving the other person to die is often not the right call, but there are many moments where it actually is.

As I said in the video, I already reported him to the mods with his username, but I'm not exposing him here. I just wanna know your opinions on whether he's hacking or if Bloodhook is glitched now.