u/Spare-Performance556

First kidney stone. After 14 hours in ER waiting to be seen (much of it spent on the floor because they ran out of chairs), they diagnosed a 4mm kidney stone.

I gave birth with no medication 2 months ago. That was way less painful and I would gladly do that over again if it meant that this would stop.

They put me on FlowMax, naproxen and hydromorphone. I don’t think the hydromorphone is doing anything except making me sleepy and nauseous.

The pain is so bad that I’m struggling to take care of my baby. Easily 10/10 at times, then subsiding to maybe 2/10 for a while before going back up. I’m throwing up during many of those extremely painful episodes. The thermometer says that I don’t have a fever, but I am having chills, violent shaking and changes to my skin colour in my face. The ER doc said that this was all normal and should last 5-10 days.

I’m having a hard time believing that all this is normal as I’m only 2 days into the 5-10 day adventure and I’m legitimately feeling like death could come at any time.

As the title says. Rant.

For context, my parents were removed from my life due to being unsafe (both physically and psychologically) around my child. This wasn’t our first choice and they responded extremely negatively in response to any request to modify their behaviour. This included trying to have us evicted. We moved and did not immediately provide the new address because it was demanded via a screaming phone call in the middle of the night. This was then followed by online stalking and threats that we “could never keep our child away from them,” and various other abduction-esque statements.

While I never asked my siblings to choose or anything like that, 2 of my 3 siblings decided that that they were on my parents’ side. This really doesn’t make much sense as they endured the same horrendous childhood abuse that I did, but I digress.

Anyway, the end result was that the sister in question decided that she didn’t want to be in my life anymore. I respected her decision and left her alone. She then changed her mind I guess and started texting me again. That lasted for one weekend before she started saying all sorts of horrible and completely untrue things and I ended up blocking her because I didn’t need that kind of stress.

Well, she showed up at my door late at night on August 31. She brought her boyfriend, who is a lovely and level-headed person, so that was good. I ended up letting them in, which may have been a mistake and we talked for about an hour. She said that she wanted back into my life, but wouldn’t answer my questions regarding why now, what’s changed, etc. She wanted to set up a time to meet and talk more. I agreed to unblock her for that purpose.

My infant, who none of my family has ever met, was then hospitalized on September 1. I’m not sure I’ve ever been that scared before. I, probably foolishly, responded to my sister’s message regarding setting up a time to meet by telling her that my kid was in hospital and I couldn’t commit to anything then. I didn’t want her to think that I was just blowing her off, but also was a little busy. Baby stayed in hospital for 4 days and still isn’t doing amazingly, but is well enough to now be followed outpatient. The doctors don’t know what’s wrong either, which is a whole other level of stress.

My sister’s messages have now morphed from “I want to be back in your life,” to, “our parents want to help you,” to, “they don’t deserve this treatment.” My mother also borrowed someone else’s phone to call me and leave a voicemail 3 minutes after my sister’s last text.

I had been possibly open to the idea of my sister coming back into my life, but the fact that she can’t leave it alone with my parents makes it rather impossible.

They’re using the fact that my newborn is sick and I’m mentally not in a good place to try to take advantage of me. I hate that. Unrelated, but just as a cherry on the cake, my older child is sick (unrelated to what’s wrong with the baby) and our freezer stopped working sometime while we were in hospital, so our frozen food is all rotten and smelly. I’m just done.

TL;dr: this week has sucked on all levels

I know it’s probably bad that I’m happy about this, but it does still feel kind of ironically fitting.

I am NC with my parents due to a whole litany of crap. My siblings are both adults living at home and decided to cut me off in return. I can’t say I understand it or am happy about it, but that’s their choice.

Anyway, not even included in the list of why we’re NC is the extremely unpleasant response we received both times we announced that we were having a baby. For context, my husband and I are happily married, gainfully employed and in our mid to late 20s; both pregnancies were planned and there is no reason family should be anything but happy about our kids. With our first, my dad went on a Facebook rant about how he didn’t want to be a grandpa. We then got to hear about how we ruined their travel plans because they booked an out of country trip 3 weeks after she was born, then they decided not to go. With the second, my mom started sobbing immediately. 10 minutes later we got to hear from my sister about how we were selfish for “intentionally ruining the family reunion” that was scheduled for 2 weeks after my due date.

This is where the guilty pleasure comes in. The family reunion is next week. My baby is 2weeks old. I found out from a cousin that my parents and 2 siblings are the only ones going on this trip. So it’s just the people who live together who are going. To boot, they are bringing 2 campers because my mom and sister can’t stand to be in the same room for more than 15 minutes. But yeah, I selfishly ruined it by having a baby.

It is also a little sad as this event has been planned for 10 years and was originally planned with my grandfather who has since passed. However, my having a baby was not what ruined it.

For context, this is a married couple in their eighties that I (26F) met originally through church as an infant. My husband and I went NC with my parents at the end of March. We had previously been living in their rental property, which was a whole other set of problems that they used to scam us out of a lot of money and make our lives extremely unpleasant. The original plan had been moving and LC, but my parents immediately escalated to stalking and threats, so NC became the obvious choice.

The woman in this couple has been trying to set up a day to get together since April, but things just haven’t worked out. I haven’t been avoiding her or anything, but I wasn’t willing to take time off work for this.

Anyway, they arrived at our new home yesterday and were immediately making comments that it’s much larger and nicer and in a nicer area than they were expecting. I take that to mean that my parents told them that we’re living in a slum or something, but that’s neither here nor there.

The woman of the couple did most of the talking for the two of them, which is odd for them. Her husband actually worked as a counsellor for most of his life, and to me at least it seemed that he was trying to get her to stop talking at various points. Anyway, she seemed to be under the belief that this was simply an issue because my mother and I are “both strong willed.” She wanted to know if I felt that I had given my mother enough “opportunities,” for reconciliation. I stated that stalking kind of crossed a line for me and my husband jumped in that my parents keep changing their story to the point that what is/was actually said and done doesn’t matter, so you can’t exactly reconcile with that. No amount of counselling or opportunities or whatever is going to fix that if it is still actively ongoing.

They left fairly abruptly after that, but I did end up sending a text message later that I will include below.

For context, my childhood was absolutely horrendous. I believe my mother to be a narcissist who took out her frustrations in life on her kids and my father never did anything to stop her. He also engaged in some pretty extreme shows of violence more sporadically, maybe once or twice a year. These were usually meant to frighten us into compliance and they usually involved firearms. All that said, I really don’t believe that many adults outside of our home had any idea what was going on. We were always described as “perfect children,” and my parents were completely different people when there were witnesses. I have never brought up the childhood abuse to any adult who was present during my childhood and is still alive. Some of my grandparents came to know over time (through observation, not disclosure), but they are all gone now.

There was more than enough stuff in my childhood that it honestly didn’t make sense that we were still in contact with my parents, but it was only things that happened in 2026 that factored into the decision to cut contact.

How does everyone else handle former family friends or distant relatives? I don’t think my parents sent the people that came over yesterday, but they have sent others in the past. My husband says that he feels bad letting others be casualties of an issue that doesn’t involve them, but I’m not really sure how I feel.

Any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

My message to her:
After our conversation today, I just wanted to clarify a few things for you if that’s alright. I don’t expect or even want anything from you, but I feel that you might be owed the opportunity for better understanding should you desire it.

Firstly, this is definitely not simply an issue between my mother and I. My father is equally to blame. He is the one who made plans to evict us without warning because he didn’t like being told, “no.” He is the one who thought that it was alright to use stalking websites of questionable legality and dubious morality in order to obtain our new address without consent. He also felt that it was alright to call me names, yell at me and make derogatory comments regarding (husband) directly to (daughter).

Secondly, while it is sad that I can’t have my parents in my life right now, I am certainly not missing the impact that they had. I am happier than I have ever been before. In this new life, no one yells at me. No one tries to convince me that every decision that I make is wrong. No one who claims to love me lies to me. No one calls me names or tells me that I’m not good enough. No one feels the need to constantly alter the narrative to shift it in a certain way; facts are just facts and they don’t change depending on who is present.

I accepted disrespectful treatment from my parents up until now because that’s what I thought I was supposed to do. That’s what I had always done and without (daughter) coming into my life it’s what I probably would have continued doing forever. I don’t want (daughter) growing up in a world where she thinks it’s ok to treat people that way. I don’t want her believing that that is how the people who claim to love you should treat you.

Thirdly, I very much believe that I have given them more than enough opportunity to change their behaviour should they so choose. Again, the boundaries that we were setting were not anything that I feel should be particularly challenging. The list included not yelling at me, calling me names, making derogatory comments about (husband) in front of me, not lying to me for personal gain, allowing (husband) and I to parent our own child without making nasty comments, and not behaving aggressively in front of (daughter). That was the whole list, which I provided in writing in an itemized format. These aren’t things that I have ever had to specifically lay out for anyone else and they were reiterated repeatedly. Additionally, the nasty messages didn’t stop until I blocked them. We moved in March, but the nasty messages continued to roll in at regular intervals until at least May 14 when I finally decided that I didn’t want to read them anymore.

False allegations have continued even after this. We supposedly trashed their rental property and stole an air conditioning unit. I paid for the air conditioning unit, I have the receipt. The house was left in significantly better condition than we received it. The truth doesn’t seem to matter at all. Threats have been made regarding taking us to court. At least to me, that isn’t the type of behaviour that would indicate that any changes have been made for the positive.

Lastly, while I do not know the intricacies of the situation with your daughter and therefore cannot comment, I do empathize. I understand that separation from your family is hard. I understand that you wish your situation were different; I wish mine were too.

That said, allowing my parents back into my life at this time would mean tolerating a laundry list of unacceptable behaviours that are very much in the present. I was willing to forgive a lot, but I cannot in good conscience expose my children or my spouse to the ongoing abusive behaviours within that family.

Her response:

Good morning, (her husband’s name) and I thank you for having us come for a visit and trusting us to clarify the conflict with your folks. We love both your parents and you and so feel sadness in this disconnect at this time.

My cousin is the only member of my family that I am still in regular contact with. She came over for a visit last night. She has previously said almost nothing regarding the estrangement and my other family members, which I respect. It’s not her fight, so she can be neutral and that’s fine, we just don’t talk about it.

Anyway, the last time I had any contact with my sister resulted in me blocking her because she had decided to drink my parents’ cool aid right up. She presented it as though she were the good child now and everything is going so great now that I’m out of the way. She is decidedly with my parents and against me, including publicly telling lies about me stealing and all sorts of other things that did not occur. Her life and the family is apparently amazing now that I’m not in the way.

Cue last night. My cousin, who normally says nothing about the other family members, told us in significant detail about the family vacation that they went on last week. My mother and my sister couldn’t be in the same room for more than 20 minutes without screaming at one another. My sister got a dog that she has just done nothing with, so the current situation is that she cant even walk it on a leash because she has so little control over it. Everyone else stayed drunk the whole time because that was the only way to cope with my mother and sister screaming at one another. Meals were not prepared and nothing was done properly because everyone was either inebriated or fighting (or both).

This was the same annual family vacation that my husband and I basically held together last year (despite having a 3mo with us) because it was a similar experience. Lots of fighting and drinking. My sister took my daughter out of her stroller despite being drunk and dropped her. My mother did everything in her power to disrupt my kid’s nap schedule. My husband, BIL and I ended up preparing all of the meals and cleaning up all of the messes. It wasn’t much fun for either of us.

Seeing as the lack of my presence there resulted in chaos and unhappiness, maybe me being out of the family isn’t so great for the family after all. I had an amazing vacation with my daughter and my husband though. No one was drunk, we cleaned up our own stuff and we had a relaxing time with no screaming or fighting. I guess I win at vacation or something. My only regret with NC is not doing it a year sooner.

One of my mother’s favourite things to do prior to us going no contact was trying to make me worry about my child’s development.

She had some issues in the beginning due to an oral malformation that required surgery at 4 days old. As a result, feeding her was a challenge right up until she started on solids and she never breastfed at all (despite a lot of effort on my part).

My mother liked to comment on the feeding challenges as well as how “she’s sure I must be worried that child is not talking yet.” She would then follow it up with obvious lies about how her children (my siblings and I) were doing xyz milestone at some absurdly young age and therefore my child must be delayed. Apparently I was talking at 6 months and ordering my own food in restaurants at 15 months, my sister was potty trained by 1, etc etc obvious lies. She was constantly going on about how I needed to get my daughter enrolled in remedial programs to “fix” her.

Anyway, my toddler is 17 months old now. She didn’t talk at all until after we went NC at 14 months. She now has 50 words that she can use independently and in context. That’s not a required skill for another 13 months. If it wouldn’t mean reopening communication with my mother, I’m almost tempted to send her the list of words that my daughter knows with a middle finger emoji.

Anyway, yeah, my kid is doing great and I’d like to tell my mom to go F herself.

Edit: for clarity, I will not be contacting my mother. Never seriously thought about, just wanted to share here to vent I guess.

TW: child abuse using firearms, suicide attempt

Grew up with horrendous abuse (as expected on this sub I guess). Screaming, physical violence, deprivation, terror, basically everything except SA. Anyway, as a result, I’ve basically not cared whether I lived or died since at least age 9.

I know it was 9 at the latest because I said something along those lines to my father just in passing and he said that my death could be arranged. He dragged me outside with a gun and made me stand facing away and he said that he was going to shoot me. He fired 3 shots, but I assume that he never meant to hit me as I wasn’t very far away and he is an excellent shot. I remember collapsing to the ground and sobbing uncontrollably because I had been so scared. There had been snow on the ground and all I remember thinking about as I laid there was what my blood would’ve looked like against the snowy white back ground.

As a note, my father wasn’t even the narcissistic primary abuser, he was just my mom’s enabler. He was negligent in the fact that he didn’t get us away from my mom, but the actual abuse from him was more rare.

Also at age 9, I’m fairly certain that my mother dehydrated me to a point of danger. She would deprive us of food and/or water on a regular basis, and it got much worse around holidays. Over the summer it wasn’t so bad because we could sneak outside and drink water from a couple of different outdoor sources on the farm. One in particular my dad had shown my sister and I “just in case we were ever thirsty.” I also remember eating chicken feed a few times, but it was usually the water that was more of an issue.

Anyway, this happened the Thanksgiving that I was nine. There was no school for a couple of days before the actual Thanksgiving celebration day, which meant being home with my mom, which sucked. The day of the actual celebration, we were told that we could eat and drink once our list of “jobs” was done. Unfortunately, it was a never ending list, as they usually were. Because the frost had already come, all of the outdoor water sources had been turned off, so that wasn’t an option and the end result was that it had been a few days since I had had anything to drink.

By late afternoon, all I wanted to do was lay down. I felt so sick and tired. I knew she would beat me if she caught me laying down anywhere because the jobs weren’t done and people would be arriving soon. My bed was required to sit about 5 inches from the wall because that’s where the heat register was and my room had temperature regulation issues (that’s a whole other messy story, but I won’t go there). I decided to slide my body into that 5 inch gap sideways to lay with my back pressed against the wall and my face pressed against the side of the bed frame. I could tell that it wasn’t a normal sleep as I was drifting off; there was something different about it. I can remember thinking at 9 years old that I might never wake up from this sleep and I was 100% ok with that.

From there, things only escalated. First suicide attempt at 10. Obviously I wasn’t successful, but I did tell a friend at school who then told the teacher and things got very unpleasant for me. My parents just said that I should’ve tried harder. They wouldn’t allow me to see a professional of any kind because my mom is a registered psychologist and having a suicidal, damaged kid would make her look bad. Attempted again at 12, but the branch broke. I knew not to tell anyone that time. Once more at 15, also unsuccessful and didn’t see any kind of professional afterwards.

In between and after those instances where I was actively suicidal, I was more in a place where I just didn’t care whether I lived or died. Honestly, probably leaning more towards hoping that I died but didn’t have to put effort into making it happen. I fantasized about getting into a car crash or getting a terminal disease so that I would die but I wouldn’t have to do it myself. Even in adulthood, after I had moved out of my parents’ hellhole of a home, I kind of had the mentality where it was kind of a “meh, I guess I die if I die.” Even with the birth of my first child, I wasn’t scared because you know, worst case scenario I just die and that’s kind of fine.

My life is in a much better place now. I have a wonderful husband. We own our own home. Our kid is the love of my life. I’m NC with my parents (and siblings, their choice not mine). I have a job that I love doing. I’ve got everything I always wanted, and now I’m so scared of losing it.

I’m just a few weeks away now from delivering our second child. I’m finding myself absolutely terrified that I’m going to die or be otherwise disfigured or disabled during the whole process. I feel super bad about it, but I’m almost regretting making the decision to have a second child. It feels like we should’ve just been satisfied with one and our perfect life. I can’t leave my toddler motherless. I know that this feeling will go away as soon as the baby is born and all is well again, but it’s extremely uncomfortable in the meantime. I’ve never actually WANTED to live before, and it’s an odd sensation to suddenly have at almost 30.

TL;DR: I’ve been suicidal for most of my life and now life is good and I’m not suicidal anymore and it feels weird

Just getting started with EMDR treatment. For those unfamiliar, I guess they basically go through your life’s history fairly extensively, you rate how much those events still bother you today, then you do some sort of reprocessing. I’m still in the first stage and have no idea whether or not this will work, but I’m trying.

Anyway, we talked about ages 4-6 and then started 6-9 during today’s session. She asked about discipline in that time period. My answers included spanking, screaming, getting locked outside in bad weather, manual labour, food and water deprivation, and a couple of instances with firearms used to terrify me into compliance. The therapist was visibly stunned for a second when I mentioned a couple of those things. Objectively, as an adult, I know that most of those things aren’t *normal*, but I wasn’t really expecting to stun a therapist who specializes in this kind of crap. I haven’t even gotten to the worst stuff yet. I’m a bit worried that this poor woman might need therapy herself by the time she’s done with me.

It also came up that my dad had showed my sister and I how to drink water out of a faucet that couldn’t be seen from any window inside the house. He claimed that it was “just in case we ever got thirsty,” but this was at the height of my mother’s water deprivation era. As a child, I took that as a kindness. The therapist asked how much it bothers me that my dad did that. I was initially inclined to say not at all, because it was a kindness. It kind of hit me like a bus that that wasn’t a kindness at all. He was my dad. It was his job to get me away from the monster who wasn’t allowing me to drink water. Instead, he gave me a work around so that I wouldn’t die of dehydration (at least in the summertime, faucet was shut off in winter so that didn’t help). All these years, my mom has been the villain, but I’m coming to think that my dad wasn’t any better.

We haven’t even gotten to the part of my story that includes a murder pact with my sister in which we promised to murder each other should the other ever become like my mother. Haven’t said the word suicide attempt yet, so that’s still coming. Haven’t gotten to the part about my mother beating my sister to the point of unconsciousness when she was 3. Haven’t mentioned when she nearly drowned the neighbour’s daughter in a fit of rage. We haven’t gotten to the horrible treatment that I received after beginning to menstruate. Haven’t said a word about the abuse and neglect that my grandmother suffered as she aged and my mother became partially responsible for her care.

I guess I’m confused over a couple of things. Firstly, how am I as functional as I am? Secondly, what was wrong with me that I didn’t run away the second I turned 18? It took me until I was almost 30 and had become a mother myself to cut them out of my life. Thirdly, how can any of my siblings be on their side? I cut my parents off and two of my siblings cut me off entirely and have decided not to speak to me at all. Do they not remember this same stuff? Lastly, how can my parents possibly be confused about why I am choosing not to have them in my life?

Just curious about how others’ childhoods went.

CPS “investigated” my parents at least 4 times that I can recall, but because my mother worked in the school system and had connections and what not, she was always able to make it go away without anything ever being done.

Investigations took place when I was in kindergarten, either grade 5 or 6 (can’t recall), grade 7 or 8 and then finally in grade 9. I always lied and said what my mom wanted. I wonder if anything would be different if I had ever told the truth.

That said, there was usually pretty little, if any, proof for what they did to us. We were going without food and water, but it was because they didn’t let us have any, not because there wasn’t any in the fridge. They didn’t tend to leave a whole bunch of marks on us. Using bad weather as punishment for your kids doesn’t leave marks unless they actually freeze body parts off or get struck by lightning, so there’s that.

I can’t help but wonder whether CPS did nothing because the investigators were lazy or because my mother was genuinely that good at hiding things.

Technically, she was actually blocked before my parents were. Doesn’t feel very nice. Unfortunately, she is very much drinking the cool aid and sending me horrible unsolicited messages.

It started off with her saying that she missed me, then she gave me a novel regarding updates on her life (it appears to be falling apart and she might be having a mental breakdown). Then it turned to attacking and saying that I’m a horrible and disgusting person. I had been somewhat curious about what my parents’ rhetoric was, and I guess I found that out, but it didn’t feel nice that it was my sister repeating it.

Overall, it was just a very confusing interaction. She stated openly that my mother is insane and that leaving was a good option, but then doubled back on herself again.

She has well documented mental health issues (growing up in a hellhole will do that) and I know she’s hurting without me being part of her support system, but I can’t be part of her support system if she’s going to act like a deranged lunatic. Prior to finally cutting off my parents, she was calling me at least 3 times a week at random times throughout the day and night because she was having panic attacks and stuff. The recent contact with her set me backwards, so I have changed a few things so that she won’t be able to contact me again. I feel bad, but she’s an adult who needs to figure out her stuff.

It probably feels worse because she’s my baby sister who I did everything that I could to protect and care for growing up. I took beatings meant for her, made sure she had food to eat and made sure she got to school. As far as I know I’m the only one who ever bathed her or brushed her teeth. I hid things for her so that our parents couldn’t use them to hurt her. When my dad threw her out on the side of the highway, I jumped out to go with her. When we would get locked outside in the cold, I gave her my clothes and did everything I could to keep her warm. She crawled into my bed more times than I can count. She knows better than anyone that my parents are monsters, and yet she’s choosing to believe them.

For context, my dad confuses me. The majority of the horrible things that have happened in my life were primarily perpetrated by my mother. However, my dad never did anything to stop her and has been an active participant in most of the more horrible things. He used to like to use firearms to scare us, etc.

He has scars on his body from my mother physically assaulting him before they were even married. Cops ended up being called and HE got arrested. And he proceeded to marry her and have several children. Just very confusing.

He has a habit of covering her behaviour and backing her lies.

All that said, in the series of events that ultimately resulted in NC, he was at least an equal participant. We had been living in my parents’ rental property, and he ended up sabotaging the place such that we couldn’t continue living there. They also swindled us out of around $63k, and I believe that he was the primary perpetrator on that, though I can’t be sure.

After we moved, which was apparently against their wishes (even though he was sabotaging the house to make it unlivable?), they stalked us online in order to find our new address and then bragged that we could never hide from them. I know my dad did the stalking, my mom wouldn’t have the skills. The stalking was what took us from LC to NC. My mom was the one who did the bragging.

Anyway, I haven’t heard from my dad in months. Last I heard from him directly was just a nasty text calling me a coward and a bitch for moving. He did harass my husband’s family online for a while, but that didn’t last long. Then today he sent me a text wishing me a happy Mother’s Day. My question is why? Sometimes it feels like he genuinely cares about me, but then I remember the whole sabotaging my house, swindling me out of money and taking me outside as a child to use as target practice and scare the shit out of me. But then again, he was also the one who tucked me into bed at night and gave me my baths and basically every loving, caring act that I received prior to meeting my husband.

At least my mother had the decency to just be evil all the way through. My dad just messes with my head and I’m not sure what to do about that.

Sorry for the rambling rant, but can anyone else relate?

Edit: of course y’all were right. I foolishly acknowledged having received the message by saying “thanks,” and the threats are rolling in.

This thought just crossed my mind and now I’m curious what it was like for other people. I can think of dozens (if not hundreds) of instances that would’ve resulted in the dissolution of the relationship if it weren’t a parent, but because it was a parent the relationship persisted. Obviously not a complete list.

In no particular order, things that happened in my life that DID NOT result in estrangement:

-shooting a gun over my head in order to scare me into doing something (I was 9)

-wearing a “funeral dress” to my wedding in order to “protest” it

-forcing my fiancé and I to sit through an hour long lecture about how he was unsuitable marriage material because he’s fat and had student debt at the time

-swindled my husband and I out of ~$63000

-constant physical violence until age 12

-deprivation of food, water and shelter throughout childhood

-repeatedly entering our home without our knowledge or permission

-selling a pet that I had left in their care without telling me

-lied to me about care options for my elderly and unwell grandmother, resulting in her not receiving any care whatsoever

-repeated use of firearms to scare me into compliance

-intentionally instilling eating disorders in all daughters because they didn’t want “fat girls”

-screaming at me for no less than the equivalent of 2 years worth of work at a full time job before I turned 18

-intentionally exposing their kids to known pedophiles because they were “helping others”

-allowing a violent alcoholic to live with us for multiple years, he was permitted to do whatever he wanted while doing so

-taking violence out on pets as a means of frightening and controlling the kids

-went on a Facebook rant about how they didn’t want a grandchild when we announced that we were expecting (we were married and financially stable, so that’s not a contributing factor)

-failed to keep our child safe on one of the few occasions that we allowed them to babysit

What finally did result in estrangement:

-stalking us after we moved and then bragging about it