Sorcerous Burst + Evocation/Spellfire Adept
This warrants being its own post, rather than only part of my on-going Mystic Arts Monk discussion. Specifically, I'm going to discuss the interaction of the cantrip Sorcerous Burst and the feats Evocation and Spellfire Adept.
I'll divide this into four sections. First, a discussion of how I believe Sorcerous Burst works and what it involves. Second, a discussion of the Evocation and Spellfire Adept feats that add hit dice (HD) to a spell attack. Third, a discussion of RAW/RAI to understand if what I am proposing makes sense or is not allowed within the rules. Finally, I will propose some basic ways I've thought of this interaction to work on a couple classes/subclasses, though I'm sure there are other ways this knowledge can be used in the game.
TL;DR: I propose that Sorcerous Burst (SB) interacts with Evocation and Spellfire Adept in interesting ways, namely when the HD you add to the roll are d8s. Because of the wording of SB and the ruling of a Sage Advice, I believe that this can count as increasing the chances of rolling more d8s to this cantrip, making it more potent in terms of the number of damage dice it can roll. From this I extrapolate 3 potential builds that can utilize this damage boost cantrip: Warlocks (specifically a Celestial Tomelock), Valor Bards with a dip into Sorcerer, and the Mystic Arts Monk. The result is a potentially powerful cantrip attack, though probably less powerful than other cantrips using similar tactics.
Section 1: The Spell Sorcerous Burst
Let's start off by looking at the text of Sorcerous Burst, which is a Sorcerer exclusive cantrip.
>Evocation Cantrip
>Casting Time: Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
>You cast sorcerous energy at one creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 damage of a type you choose: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Psychic, or Thunder.
>If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell, you can roll another d8, and add it to the damage. When you cast this spell, the maximum number of these d8s you can add to the spell’s damage equals your spellcasting ability modifier.
>Cantrip Upgrade. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach levels 5 (2d8), 11 (3d8), and 17 (4d8).
On its surface, a fun if not particularly powerful cantrip. But I want to highlight a few things. First, it allows us choose the damage type among elemental damages (so it does not inherently deal radiant damage, which will be important later), a nice benefit for avoiding resistance. Second, it is an evocation spell, which we will use to our benefit. And third is the line about rolling additional d8s if you roll an 8.
Here we need to understand exactly what is being stated and what the intention is. When the cantrip is considered at level 1, it's pretty straight forward. Roll 1d8, and if it's an 8, roll another d8. If that d8 also rolls an 8, roll a third d8, etc., up to your spellcasting modifier number of times. But it becomes a little bit more murky at levels 5+ when you roll multiple d8s for the main damage. Does each 8 you roll allow you to roll an additional d8 of new dice, or if you roll say two 8s in a roll, do you only roll one new d8? I think it makes sense that you roll a new d8 for each existing d8 you rolled that comes up as an 8, based on the text. "If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell" does not specify that it is only the first roll of the d8s, and because of the generic wording, I take it to mean any d8 that rolls an 8 as part of this spell allows you to roll another d8, regardless of when you roll that d8 as part of the damage.
A similar question can be asked about critical hits. If the spell attack is a crit, and we roll 2d8s (or 4d8s, or 6d8s, etc.), does each one of those extra d8s that roll an 8 count as an additional d8 we can add to the spell roll? And in turn is that d8 doubled on a crit too (per crit rules) such that we get another 2 chances at rolling another 8, which then could also double on said crit? Again, I believe this is the case, based on the wording of the spell, but I am open to others interpreting it differently.
At the end of the day, as with all stuff that is not completely clear, this may come down to asking your DM if they feel this way or not. But I think the RAW at least seems to support the idea that any d8 rolled with this spell counts as a source of potentially gaining another d8 in damage added due to the "exploding" nature of the dice.
Section 2: Evocation and Spellfire Adept Feats
Now let's look at the two feats Evocation and Spellfire Adept. They read as such (the relevant bit for this discussion concerning adding hit dice to a spell):
>Evocation Adept
>Fueled Evocation. Once per turn when you cast an Evocation spell and deal damage, you can roll up to two of your unexpended Hit Point Dice and add the total rolled to one of the spell’s damage rolls. Those Hit Point Dice are then expended.
>Spellfire Adept
>Fueled Spellfire. Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals Radiant damage, you can expend up to two Hit Point Dice, roll them, and add the total rolled to one damage roll of the spell.
So nearly Identical in their wording. The only big difference besides what spell triggers this option (Radiant damage ones vs Evocation ones - which need not be exclusive) is that Spellfire works for potentially every turn a spell you cast deals Radiant damage, whereas Evocation only allows adding HD once when you initially cast the spell.
But the part I want to focus on is this text: "...you can roll up to two of your unexpended Hit Point Dice and add the total rolled to one of the spell’s damage rolls." I think some people read this in plain language and think you add the damage dice of your hit dice (HD) you expend to the pool of damage for this spell. Others scrutinize the wording a little more closely and interpret it to mean the HD roll is a separate roll, and then that total is treated as a flat damage adder to the spell damage of one roll of the spell. Meaning, the HD do not get added into the damage roll itself, but rather are there only as a flat modifier increase much like a casting stat modifier or other flat bonus to damage. So which one is correct?
Section 3: RAW and RAI
First, let's look at the text for rolling damage and critical hits from the PHB.
>Damage Rolls
>Each weapon, spell, and damaging monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target. If there’s a penalty to the damage, it’s possible to deal 0 damage but not negative damage.
>When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage roll. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers. Unless a rule says otherwise, you don’t add your ability modifier to a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun. See “Equipment” for weapons’ damage dice and “Spells” for spells’ damage dice.
>Critical Hits
>When you score a Critical Hit, you deal extra damage. Roll the attack’s damage dice twice, add them together, and add any relevant modifiers as normal. For example, if you score a Critical Hit with a Dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage rather than 1d4, and add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the Rogue’s Sneak Attack feature, you also roll those dice twice.
It's a bit of text, but I've highlighted the relevant bits I believe. I think the last one is particular is the most important, because it specifies that "other damage dice" get doubled as well on a crit for attacks, and gives the example of Rogue's Sneak Attack. So the question then becomes, are the Adept feats highlighted above "modifiers" or "other damage dice".
From a perspective of comparative damage conditions, such as Rogue's Sneak Attack or Hunter's Mark or Divine Smite, etc., they do seem to be extra dice. But, people will point out that language is a bit different than the Adept feats, as seen for example here:
>Sneak Attack: You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon. The extra damage's type is the same as the weapon's type.
>Hunter's Mark: You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
>Divine Smite: The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is a Fiend or an Undead.
As I highlighted, people will often point to these and state the damage dice are "extra" to the attack, and thus counts as "other damage dice" that would be doubled on a crit. But the Adept feats (Evocation & Spellfire) state you "expend" the HD and add "the total rolled" to one damage roll. Thus "the total" is not the same as the dice themselves (the 2d6 or 2d10 or whatever), and therefore it's not doubled on a crit but instead a flat number. And, to be fair to them, perhaps they are correct. But I do want to highlight one small but important counter argument.
There is an ability in the game that does use this "number rolled" value and adds it to the damage, and still allows for that damage dice doubling on a crit. It is the Valor Bard's "Combat Inspiration - Offense" feature, which has the following text:
>Offense. Immediately after the creature hits a target with an attack roll, the creature can roll the Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to the attack’s damage against the target.
Now, on its face we don't know for sure this counts as dice that gets doubled on a critical hit. Instead, this is stated directly in the Sage Advice Compendium
>For the College of Valor, does using Combat Inspiration’s Offense feature mean that the Bardic Inspiration die counts as a damage die for purposes of Critical Hits?
>Yes.
So based on this guidance and similar wording (i.e. rolling the dice first and then adding the number/total to the attack's damage), it appears that we would indeed double the dice on a critical hit for the Adept feats, and thus the dice would count as part of the "pool" of dice rolled for the particular spell's damage.
One last thing I want to end with before the next section. While Jeremy Crawford is no longer at WotC, he was the lead designer while 2024 was being written, and he had this to say about damage dice:
>When something in the game (Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, hex, etc.) causes your attack/spell/etc. to deal extra dice of damage, those dice are added to the damage the effect is already dealing, if any. It's one big damage roll, extra damage included.
>Q: how do you distinguish between second damage roll and extra damage?
>A: Separate damage rolls are delivered by separate attack rolls, saving throws, or other processes. Extra/bonus/additional damage is called extra/bonus/additional damage.
So while Crawford (especially his Tweets) are not considered official guidance or source material anymore, combining that with the above, current Sage Advice seems to indicate that because the Adept feats do not have a separate attack roll, saving throw, or "other process", they would be part of the same roll and the same spell effect. And thus those HD would add dice to the damage of whatever spell they are modifying.
Section 4: Potential Sorcerous Burst Builds
Hopefully everyone reading this can see where I am going. HD come in sizes from d6 to d12, but only d8s in this context would be relevant. But, if the interpretation is correct (and/or your DM agrees) that those HD get added to the spell effect, rather than their total value, and Sorcerous Burst counts any d8 rolled "for this spell" as triggering extra d8s if they roll an 8, then if we use HD that are d8s from Evocation and Spellfire Adept, they would also add as potential dice to increase the number of d8s you can roll. So at say level 5 if you have one of these feats (and a way to add radiant damage if you are using Spellfire Adept) and you have a d8 HD (more on this later), you could instead of rolling 2d8 for damage roll instead 4d8. And if you critically hit, that would be 8d8 rather than 4d8. (Side note: I won't be talking about the spell Chromatic Orb in this post, but the same logic should apply there as well, but only to the first roll.)
Just for us math enthusiasts, the chances of rolling an 8 on 2d8 of dice is 1-(7/8)^2 = 23.4%, and with 4d8 it becomes 1-(7/8)^4 = 41.4%. So nearly double the chance of rolling at least one 8, and bringing it close to a 50-50 coin toss on if you roll an 8. So a significant bump in potentially triggering at least one additional d8 for the spell from just one Adept feat here. And the chance of rolling two 8s is up to ~7.9% (from 1.6%), so a little better than a chance to crit on a d20 dice.
Critical hits are when this gets pretty fun IMO. First, the main spell damage dice double (so up to potentially 8d8), and then the one-to-two Adept feat dice double (so potentially another 8d8), and then any additional dice rolled also would double, per the interpretations above. So you could roll up to your spellcasting modifier in d8s, which typically is 5, that are doubled to 10d8. In total then, at level 17+, a spellcaster using this spell could roll 26d8 from the base spell + Adept feats, even if rolling five 8s in total is somewhat rare of an occurrence probabilistically speaking. Even at level 8 when you can get these two feats, you still have a very good chance of turning one additional eight and a decent chance of adding a second d8 (about 1/6 chance).
There are I think three key factors that we want to try to exploit knowing this information.
- As mentioned, we need to have some (at least four levels) of a d8 HD class. Sorcerer alone can't do this, despite being the only class* that can access the spell.
- We need to find a way to add radiant damage to the spell if we want to use it with Spellfire Adept.
- We ideally want to find a way to guarantee a critical hit with the spell, to maximize the chances of rolling more d8s.
*Note: We will discuss ways some classes/subclasses can get this spell natively.
With these in mind, I propose three build variations to try and maximize the usage of this spell. They are in order a Celestial Tomelock, a Sorcerer 2 / Valor Bard X, and a Mystic Arts Monk.
Celestial Warlock (Tomelock)
The Warlock can use their Pact of the Tome Invocation to access three cantrips from any spell list, which can include Sorcerer cantrips, and count them as Warlock spells. From there, they can add Agonizing Blast to any Warlock cantrip, which allows us to add our Charisma modifier to the damage rolls. We then can take the Celestial subclass to level 6 to get Radiant Soul, which allows us to again add our Charisma modifier if the spell we cast deals Radiant or Fire damage. Sorcerous Burst already allows us to change the damage type to Fire, so this fits perfectly.
As with all of these builds, the easiest way to add radiant damage to the spell is by being an Aasimar species. Their Celestial Revelation ability allows you to activate extra damage equal to your proficiency bonus that can be radiant damage if you choose Heavenly Wings or Inner Radiance. It only lasts a minute once per day, but it would count for the cantrip activating Spellfire Adept's requirements.
The last bit we need to do is have access to an ability or spell that causes automatic crits, which in our case will be the paralyzed condition. As a Warlock, we have three spells I think that fit. Hold Person is a classic, though it only works on Humanoids. Hold Monster works much the same way but on all creatures. And Summon Undead (Putrid) can also cause paralysis if the enemy is poisoned and is hit by the Rotting Claw attack. There are a few ways to make an enemy poisoned as a Warlock, including using their familiar (Quasit, Pseudodragon) or even just let the Summon Undead's Festering Aura cause poison to the enemy.
Once the enemy is paralyzed, we would like to make our attack rolls at advantage, since Sorcerous Burst is a ranged cantrip. So besides taking Evocation and Spellfire Adept, we will also take Spell Sniper to ensure our attack rolls are at advantage when we attack within 5 ft of the paralyzed enemy.
So, summing this all up, in combat we would spend a round or more making our enemy paralyzed. Then we would get within 5 ft of them and cast Sorcerous Burst with our Celestial Revelation active. If we hit (and this is level 12+ due to the feat requirements), we roll 6d8 (base spell crit) + 4d8 (Evocation Adept) + 4 (Celestial Revelation) + 4d8 (Spellfire Adept) + 5 (Agonizing Blast) +5 (Radiant Soul) + 2-10d8 (extra Sorcerous Burst dice that crit). With no extra dice, that is an average of 77 damage, and has the potential to roll up to 122 average damage. That's pretty great just from a cantrip.
So the final build is an Aasimar Celestial Tomelock 12+, taking the two described feats and a way to cause the paralyzed condition, and Spell Sniper for close range attacks not at disadvantage.
Is this better damage than making a supped up version of Eldritch Blast which uses the same tactics? No, probability wise it's unlikely. But it is a fun concept to explore at least, and I'm sure will feel really fun when you roll (say) three 8s an add six more d8s to your damage.
Sorcerer 2 / Valor Bard X
Similar to the Warlock, we take the Aasimar species, the two Adept feats, and Spell Sniper. What this build allows us to do is also cast this cantrip as part of the Attack action, so we can also make a weapon attack in addition to the damage we were dealing with the cantrip. We also can access the spells listed under Warlock to cause the paralyzed condition, or alternatively we can cast a few spells that cause the unconscious condition (like Sleep, Eyebite, or Symbol), which also leads to automatic crits if you are within 5 ft of the creature.
Sorcerer for two levels of course gets us the cantrip we are looking for (which works with Valor Bard's 6th level feature), but also gets us Metamagic. For this we will at the very least choose Empowered Spell for giving us more chances to roll 8s on our d8s after we've seen the result. And we could take Quickened as well I guess to cast the various spells that cause paralysis/unconscious. Or alternatively we could Quicken a second casting of Sorcerous Burst (lol), though using our HD on this second casting in one round would not be sustainable.
Assuming we hit (and crit), our damage would look something like this at level 14+ for the turn: 6d8 (base spell) + 8d8 (Evocation and Spellfire Adept) + 5 (Celestial Revelation) + 2-10d8 (extra Sorcerous Burst dice) + 2d8 (weapon attack, say Rapier) + Dex (say +3) = 80 base average damage, and up to 125 potential average damage. And remember we can reroll up to 5 of the d8s if we wish with our Empowered Spell metamagic, giving us a bit higher chance of rolling an 8 and getting to add 2d8 more in damage over the baseline number.
Mystic Arts Monk
Last and probably my favorite version of the mechanical exploit. Mystic Monks can natively get the Sorcerer cantrip from their spell list, and can use the same tactic as the Valor Bard in swapping an attack with a cantrip casting. But Mystic Monks can also attack up to four more times that round, making this just one part of their multi-prong attack. At level 17 they can even swap out two of their Flurry of Blows to cast a spell, which could be Hold Person or Sleep to force the auto-crit conditions (paralyzed or unconscious). They can force these saves to be made at disadvantage with their Stunning Strike save first, due to their level 11 Focused Strike technique. And maybe best of all, at level 20 they can have their Wisdom modified increase to a +7, meaning they could potentially roll another 4d8 on a crit.
Putting this all together, a level 11 Mystic Monk can cast Sorcerous Burst and attack that same round to do the following (total) damage on a crit: 6d8 (base spell) + 8d8 (Evocation + Spellfire Adept) + 4 (Celestial Revelation) + 2-8d8 (extra Sorcerous Burst dice from say +3 Dex / +4 Wisdom) + (2d10+3) x 4 (Flurry + other Attack action attack) = 123 base damage with the potential of 159 damage. At level 20 with a 24 in Wisdom/Dex, this number becomes 158 baseline and up to 221 damage. That is a lot of damage to do with a cantrip and a few other attacks.
Final Thoughts
I realize the probability of exploding dice does not tend to favor it dealing the upper end of the damage numbers I have listed. But, even without that, adding an extra 2-3d8, especially on a crit, could be a way to maximize this damage and push it into somewhat reliable territory for nova damage. I also recognize that not every DM will agree with this analysis or rule that the feats and spell interact in this way, and that is OK. In the end, people should play the game that is the most fun for them. I just wanted to write this post to explore one option that may be fun for people, should they decide they want to incorporate it into their games.
Have a good day to all those who have read to the end!