Arakure is only FDodge Bash character with 700ms FDodge Recovery

I was wondering why her Forward Dodge feels so sucky and difficult to use when you aren't using the Undodgeable/Bash option and going for Forward Dodge into GB. It turns out her Forward Dodge Recovery is 700ms (notably not filled in yet on Info Hub for some reason). If you take a look at other characters with 700ms Forward Dodge Recovery...

  • Raider
  • Highlander
  • Kensei
  • Hitokiri
  • Afeera

All notably who lack standard Forward Dodge Bash offense.

If you're ever wondering why you can't use her Legion Kick in the same way as others it's due to this. I'm sure that to many people they consider it "justified" given the Blue/Orange tidepod she has from Neutral and potent chains. For reference, most characters with FDodge Bashes have 600ms Forward Dodge recovery.

Fun Fact: Notably she's also the only character (I think) that has her Forward Dodge Bash animation change based on input timing, kicking with her Right Leg on buffered input and Left Leg if later (at least past 367ms input).


Mostly here to provide information but I do have to "complain" for a moment.

  • First character with NO Backstep Attacks at all from Neutral, neither Backstep Light nor Heavy (I wonder if due to fear of a "pseudo infinite" wallsplat with Dirty Trick?)
  • First Legion Bash character with 700ms Forward Dodge Recovery.
  • First Legion Bash with is it 900ms or 1000ms GB recovery with no chainability, i.e. incredibly punishable
  • No Forward Dodge Heavy to make Forward Dodge Light not the easiest parry in the world
  • Standard 500ms Lights no properties, Standard 800ms Heavies no Properties, relatively slow 600ms unfeintable Zone
  • Generally pretty awful range and hitboxes on everything except sorta Opener Heavy, Zone and Lash attacks which have just "technically there" hitboxes at least
  • Feats that take a long time to get up and running, lengthy CD's, and long activation times. The T3 especially conflicts so much with its primary use-case.
  • At best, average recoveries on most everything else, and fairly bad if not chained

I get she has strengths for sure, and her chain pressure near a wall and especially with gauge can be intense...but yeesh. I know the devs wanted to be tame with her, but having such nerfed fundamentals makes her just feel so clunky IMO, and most people only focus on the "Big Shiny Stuff" like the infamous UD UB HA attack so having her nerfed in these small areas seems like it will do nothing to downplay her strength for "casual play" but makes her feel awful to use elsewhere.

u/VoidGliders — 1 day ago

Arakure has different animations for Early vs Late Forward Dodge Kick

Fun Fact: Arakure has different animations for Early and Late Forward Dodge Kick.

Was trying to think of what leg she uses for her kicks and realized she uses both. First time I think they've done this for a Forward Dodge Bash or based on input-timing rather than guard direction (of course there's been stuff like different Top Stance based on previous Side), JJ/Cent/etc. all kick with the same leg no matter the delay.

It also alternates her follow-up Ribshot bash leg kick based on which one was used (which also happens when she has a different attack guard direction before it), but notably not the Dirty Trick "Pocket Sand" attack which always uses Right Leg.

Usually they mention stuff like this in Warrior's Den (like her different animation for Dirty Trick on the elite samurai), but I didn't see this one.

Also fun fact: Arakure is the only character in the game with a 700ms Forward Dodge Recovery and a Forward Dodge Bash which is a lot slower than anyone else. Try doing Forward Dodge and GB with Medjay or Warlord and then her and it's night and day. If you're wondering why her Forward Dodge Bash is tough to use with the "Dodge and then GB", this is why.

u/VoidGliders — 1 day ago

Imagine having Guardian buff and ballista support from your 4-stack and STILL losing every fight

They then threw the match to solo pop T4's on me and try to emote back...we destroyed their ram, and killed them still. How bloody sad lmao

u/VoidGliders — 10 days ago

Go Home Ubi, you're Drunk

  • Die
  • Notice there's 2 lives, and because bots are still utter garbage and act as ticket sinks, do not revive so bot doesn't be stupid
  • ok bots finally dead, wait 3s because sometimes the game messes up if their corpse is still wiggling
  • oh frick it still didn't respawn...ME?!? WHAT THE ACTUAL HECK IVE BEEN DEAD FOR A MINUTE NOW, IM THE ONE THAT CLICKED REVIVE

so yeah. What would almost certainly been a win is now a loss. Cool.

u/VoidGliders — 18 days ago

Khatun Suggestion for Pin Improvements

Khatun is actually good. Really good, in fact, she was used a lot in tourneys and showed to be very formidable. People dog on her because she can be hard to use but I genuinely love that, high skill ceiling is peak. So I'm not even talking about "balance" here or trying to go "oh woe is ma girl". She doesn't need buffs, she's perfectly fine atm.

I'm talking about fun though. Cutscenes aren't (IMO) fun, as or against, and in duels the bulk of your damage is in the cutscene Bloody Wrath (the Pin) into Relentless Peace (Heavy after Pin). It's near mandatory as while the other follow-ups give better frame advantage it sacrifices 8-10dmg which is crazy loss. Personally, I'd prefer her Priceless Control (Light) and Ultimate Authority (Zone) to be the "optimal" 1's tool to keep the "cutsceney-ness" shorter, and partially as a compensation to her Zone nerf which made the constant resetting to Neutral via Relentless Peace annoying. Relentless Peace will be used in ganks anways as it's a great pin and stall tool even if it did LESS damage than the others.

Move 4 damage from the follow-ups to the Bloody Wrath pin itself, to help in the situations it does not pin, helps with final blows (which her feats require) and executions (which her perks require).

  • Bloody Wrath (Heavy from Stance): buff from 10 damage to 14 damage.
  • Brutal Punishment (Heavy from Parry): buff from 8 damage to 12 damage.
  • Swift Punishment (Heavy from Deflect): buff from 5 damage to 9 damage. Buff speed from 400ms to 367ms.
  • Fierce Punishment (Heavy from Guardbreak): buff from 5 damage to 9 damage. Buff speed from 800ms to 600ms.
    • It's guaranteed anyways in 1's, helps reduce cutscene and in acting faster from GB. Plus makes a cool speed scaling, SP 400ms, FP 600ms, BW 800ms, BP 1000ms.

Nerf the Pin - Heavy option and buff the Pin - Zone/Pin - Light to have equivalent HP swing. Add slight damage boost to Pin - Heavy option at end of fight so it has use as a "Finisher" move.

  • Priceless Control (Light from Pin): nerf to 6 damage (from 10 damage), now restores 40 stamina and grants a 10 health permanent barrier.
  • Absolute Authority (Zone from Pin): buff to 16 damage (from 12 damage).
    • If possible, "release" enemy from joint pin state and put them in a "normal" pin/hitstun state so that their interruption does not stop move.
  • Relentless Peace (Heavy from Pin): buff to 10 > 6 damage (from 10 > 10 damage).
    • If possible, against enemy in Critical Health, 2nd Hit deals 10dmg instead of 6dmg.

This also does buff the Pin > Wallsplat damage by 4 damage as well, but given the very short range on it and alright but not excessive damage, I do not think it is problematic at all for a slight buff. She is specifically strong because of her Relentless Peace pin, so while this is a "buff", it is not a buff in her most problematic area but instead in an area where she currently is mediocre (1's, sustain) and specifically non-compet players struggle the most.

Love Khatun, one of the best mostly balanced characters the devs have released, fun as and against with a lot of little nuances. Just hoping for a bit less tedium to the fights, and the sustain on the Light option would be greatly appreciated for a squishy assassin in teamfights. It'd also add to her "foil" to Arakure -- instead of a temporary big beefy shield on a pin, small perma shield; instead of focusing on rushing down an enemy, can instead focus on out-lasting them.

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u/VoidGliders — 21 days ago

Arakure Additional Details on Release and Changes from EA

Some changes from the Testing/Early Access I've noticed:

  • Chain Lights look like they are Enhanced now, which helps when throwing in teamfights, and allows of course chaining to Twin Burst after.
  • Zone seemed to have been nerfed to 13 damage (from 14 damage).
  • Twinburst Light seems to still be guaranteed on Forward Dodge Bash and Chain Bash, changing their damage to 17dmg and 25dmg, forgoing the ability to "chain" except into forward dodge mixup. Unclear if a bug or intended -- it's a lot of damage but not exactly absurd (Sohei, JJ, Shaolin get 16dmg, and some can chain from it, have F+, and chain on whiff/totally safe from GB, and HL/Jorm get more damage on their feintable bashes as well and HL a tad safer), and they do specifically delay Dirty Trick so it's not guaranteed, so it could be intentional, idk.
  • Dirty Trick: changed damage from 3>3>3>3>5dmg to 1>1>1>1>15dmg. Changes damage from 17dmg to 19dmg without wall (buff), and from 37dmg to 29dmg with a wall (nerf), making her still a menace but much less so near a wall.
    • Probably for the best, although as predicted it makes the build-up lights feel very weak. I sorta wish they made the Dirty Trick Finisher heal her and regain stamina instead of doing a lot of damage, would cause the choice between damage (wallsplat) and finisher to be a tradeoff. Plus the 19dmg on a 500ms bash with no conditions is...a choice.
  • Absolutely no Backstep Attacks from Neutral. Not Light nor Heavy. You have little control on spacing with them.
  • Combo Gauge can have its timer refreshed by ANY defense: Deflects, Parries, etc. and ANY attack (even GB), but NOT on being hit directly/without any defense.
  • I could be wrong but did they nerf her throw range? Her forward throw seems good but her other throws feel sorta short-to-medium at best.

Some more niche elements that may or may not be known (were shown by some):

  • Just to clarify for those who do not know, her bashes are VERY vulnerable and can be very consistently dodged and then guardbroken no matter really what state she was in before. Only her Lash-Out Bash seems to have OK recovery.
  • Also for those who only saw the Dev Stream, her One-Two lights also have Dodge RC. They and her Twin Burst Lights are the only Dodge RC moves in her kit.
  • You can "Chain" from her Twin Burst attacks with Lash-Out Attacks in teamfights, and from her Dirty Trick bash.
  • Dirty Trick does NOT have Hyperarmor or Superarmor with her combo gauge on the move startup, the attacks after are armored, meaning you can't do some cheeky Light into Armored Bash. This could be seen with no white flash before, but was stated somewhat as if it did. However, the Deflect Counter Dirty Trick DOES have armor, regardless of combo state, which is important because 400ms Lights DO hit it. Against characters like Zerk, it's important to go for the bash if they have access to the Light as you will hit at the same time with your normal Deflect Heavy and thus be both sent back to Neutral (though you'll win the damage trade) whereas the Dirty Trick deflect will hit later, thus armor through the damage portion (not sure if they delay it or if there's "gaps" in the armor".
    • Untested yet: Dodge RC interactions with deflects
    • Untested yet: If the armor after Deflect is just normal Hyperarmor or not. I imagine the armor granted is completely removed from the gauge system and just normal Hyperarmor.

Comment below if you have any other knowledge of changes or niche things to add to the list.

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u/VoidGliders — 28 days ago
▲ 113 r/forhonor

Arakure is the First Character in the game with No Backwards/Backstep Attacks at All from Neutral

No Back+Light (which we've seen on Virtuosa) but now not even Back+Heavy to make space. It means you are vacuum'd to your enemy's face if within range. This feels so bad.

They started being finnicky with Back+Light. It made sense with Superior Block characters, but wish they at least added a non-Superior Block Light to those like Highlander.

Then they started doing it for characters like Shinobi, and on release Virtuosa -- their lights are not property'd but I guess can sorta make sense due to the strength of backflip or her stance? It still feels sucky and like you have a lot less control of your spacing, but OK. Shinobi gets a safe neutral bash and double dodges, Virt gets two bashes, maybe it's OK.

Now we have Arakure. Her neutral is already the most bare-bones neutral imagineable: 800ms no property heavies, 500ms no property lights, not even normal upfront damage, weak damage on bash (unless the Back+Light confirm isn't a bug...even then it only just barely matches JJ/Shaolin/Sohei forward dodge bash damage, and WAY more punishable) that is guardbroken on dodge, normal dodge attack, the only sorta "extra" is a non-feintable forward dodge undodgeable. And apparently that's so much she can't do one of the most basic spacings in the game.

And if you're thinking "well it's to prevent the Unblockable Undodgeable Hyperarmor from being too scary", it has nearly 0 range so even if you could access it from Backstep Light/Heavy it wouldn't reach unless your opponent sprinted into you. She does not have Dodge RC from neutral at ALL (she has to land an attack or Twin Burst Light), so she doesn't even have some super safety like Orochi Backstep Lights.

If she's meant to be a "in your face" character, then at least give her 700ms Neutral Heavies like Glad, a Back+GB safe low dmg low risk feintable bash, or enhanced lights. No spacing tools at all and a sucky neutral who's only held up by having an obnoxious tidepod from neutral.

u/VoidGliders — 28 days ago

Arakure: Damage and Timings, Kit Details

Arakure Detailed Kit (Text/Images)

For those who like to read about the character instead of a video. She releases Tomorrow, July 23rd. Info taken from dev livestream and various youtubers with EA, like freeze and Nova King. Obligatory "values could change" (but typically don't).

General and Misc

  • Stats: 125 Health, 120 Stamina
  • Running Speed: ???
  • 2-Hit Chain, any Light/Heavy pairing
  • Good Throw Range.
  • Has at least one very fast execution.
  • Recoveries seem fairly length, and usually must land her strikes for safety -- very punishable character if you make the right read.

Basics

  • One-Two: 200ms 3dmg, Dodge Recovery-Cancel at 167-200ms
    • Guaranteed off of seemingly any hit that is not Twinstrikes. Light Hitstun.
    • Indicated full-damage damage below in parantheses.
    • Chains, thus the "Finishers" here becomes "Chains", but only if this is used after, i.e. they effectively cannot chain on whiff but can on hit.
  • Opener Lights: 500ms 10dmg (13dmg)
  • Opener Heavies: 22dmg 800ms (25dmg)
  • Finisher Lights: 500ms 11dmg (14dmg)
  • Finisher Heavies: 700ms 24dmg (27dmg)
  • Finisher Bash: 800ms 16dmg directly (19dmg)
  • Zone (Right): 600ms 14dmg (17dmg)
  • Running Attack (Top): 600ms 13dmg (16dmg, unsure if it can One-Two, assume it can)

Dodge RC on double-attack means that as long as you land attacks, you can flow quite well. It's only if you miss that you're in trouble, you are not Orochi. Credit to Nova King.

Dodge Attacks

  • Side Dodge Light: 533ms 14dmg (17dmg), 200-400ms Input (standard)
  • Forward Dodge Light: 500ms 11dmg (14dmg), Undodgeable, 300ms-500ms Input (a bit "sluggish" compared to standard)
  • Forward Dodge Bash: 433ms 8dmg directly (11dmg), 300ms-500ms Input (standard)
  • Deflect Heavy: 400ms? 20dmg (23dmg)
  • Deflect GB: performs Dirty Trick (see below)

Forward Dodge Bash would make Ol' Jormie blush. Also cannot see here, but may I gush on her Forward Dodge animation, she covers her head like a boxer closing space, it's a cool detail.

Special Stuff

Four main things make Arakure stand-out: Combo Meter which buffs her up if she lands more attacks, Twinstrike Attacks (or "Twinburst") which are where 90% of her power-moves are and act as "true" finishers, Lash-Out Attacks that are special target-swap attacks, and her Hair. We don't talk 'bout that last one.

The faces you see and laugh at right before being obliterated so hard they stunning tap flashbang you back to Y1. They absolutely bullied Kyoshin in anime school too.

Combo Meter

  • Indicated beside HP Bar (above head, not the one at top), under Art of War blocking symbol, and by fire on her shoulders (T1 White, T2 Light Blue).
  • Builds up to 35 points by attacking...
    • Lights/Bashes: 3 points
    • Heavies/Zone: 5 points
    • One-Two/Pin Confirmed Attacks: 2 points
  • Lost at 1 point/s after 9.5s of neither...
    • Hitting an Enemy (Blocked or Hit)
    • Blocking an Enemy Strike
  • Grants buffs to Twinstrikes and Lash-Out attacks based on Gauge...
    • 15 points is "Tier 1"/Onslaught, White Glow, grants Hyperarmor at 100ms in addition to other properties (except Dirty Trick)
    • 35 points is "Tier 2"/Ultimate, Blue Glow, grants Unblockable in addition to other properties (except Dirty Trick)

The devs wanted to ensure it was not humanly-possible to not see her gauge. Do note that the first bar fills up \"faster\" than the second, despite similar lengths.

Twinstrikes (Back+GB/Light/Heavy while in-Chain)

  • Twinstrike Light: 400ms 9dmg, Enhanced, Dodge Recovery-Cancel at 167-200ms, +Hypearmored at 100ms (T1 Combo), +Unblockable (T2 Combo)
    • 400ms means typically unreactable except at maybe the top 0.001% of players, 500ms is assumed reactable even to novice players.
  • Twinstrike Heavy: 900ms 26dmg (sides)/28dmg (top), Undodgeable, +Hypearmored at 100ms (T1 Combo), +Unblockable (T2 Combo)
  • Twinstrike Bash - "Dirty Trick": 500ms, no direct damage.
    • Confirms 300ms 3dmg, 300ms 3dmg, 200ms 3dmg, 200ms 3dmg, 500ms 5dmg for a total of 17 dmg.
    • Can throw after any light except that last, confirming up to 12dmg > Wallsplat > Opener Heavy 22dmg > One-Two 3dmg (too low for damage reduction it seems) for a total of 37 dmg.
    • T1 Combo grants Hyperarmor and 70HP Barrier that lasts the entire pummeling of the attack and into the recovery.
    • T2 Combo replaces Hypearmor with Superarmor (making it bash-immune as well).
    • Armor on self does not apply to target, who can be hit out of it by allies OR their allies, thus functionally in teamfights still interrupted most of the time.

Dirty Trick. Applies a cool \"sand\" effect on opponent's screen too.

Dirty Trick Finisher actually changes based on if its against her \"enemies\", fellow OG samurais mostly who she hates for not standing up to Khatun, and the uppercut can ledge. If you forget, do not worry, there will be a half-dozen reddit posts \"HEY GUYS DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S DIFFERENT ANIMATIONS HERE\" within the month.

Lash(-Out) Attacks

  • After landing an attack against an opponent, target-locking onto a different target uses a "special" attack called a "Lash-Out" attack. The Heavy and Light are mostly the same as Finishers, just more range.
  • Lash Heavy: 800ms 24dmg, fairly long range
  • Lash Light: 500ms 11dmg, medium range
  • Lash Bash: 500ms 9dmg directly, short range
  • Lash-Out Attacks CANNOT chain on whiff at all, and must be entered only from a landed hit. They can "bounce" and chain into a Lash Attack on another target after successfully landing. Lash-Out Attacks CAN chain after Twinstrike Attacks, thus allowing even them to "chain" in teamfights.
  • Lash-Out Attacks gain the Combo Gauge buffs (T1 Hyperarmor at 100ms, T2 Unblockable)

PoV: Every reel you see on YT Shorts for the next week titled \"NEW HERO SO OP\" and \"ANTIGANK GOD\" before people learn that there's a dodge button.

Feats

  • Tier 1
    • T1 - Against the World: 10% damage buff for 5s after landing a Lash-Out Attack. Refreshes if landing another within the 5s. Cooldown of 10s if none landed.
    • T1 - Come at Me
    • T1 - Rush
  • Tier 2
    • T2 - Insolent Shout: 20s Active Time, 120s CD, 10%/20%/30% Damage Debuff depending on Combo Level.
    • T2 - Short-Tempered
    • T2 - Executioner's Respite
  • Tier 3
    • T3 - Walk It Off: 180s CD, grants 15HP/30HP/45HP to self based on Combo Level. Full-cleanses all negative debuffs on self (similar to Centurion's new Refined Phalanx, but just for self).
    • T3 - Punch Through
    • T3 - Hard to Kill
  • Tier 4
    • T4 - Gang of Misfits: 20s Active Time, ??? CD, maxes Arakure's gauge to T2 and prevents decay through this duration, all allies nearby(?) gain Enhanced Lights and Hyperarmor Heavies.
    • T4 - Berzerker
    • T4 - Indomitable

Implications

I'll post more details if requested but do not want to "pollute" the main body much, so will keep this short, ask for clarification. This is all of course theoretical, as with all character launches we compare to known concepts and make judgements.

  • Lacks both meaningful hitboxes and range on most things except Lash Heavy and Zone. Some are particularly egregious (intentionally), like the Twinstrike Heavy having nearly 0 movement. The Lash-Out attacks are a patch to help, but they do not magically make her some top tier Gryphon-level teamfighter.
  • Damage is on lower-end generally, or +1 Higher with Combo strike, making it usually necessary for damage. Hyperarmor trades should be considered against this fact, and she is more stamina-intensive it seems.
  • Three Main "Mixups"/Vortexes/Whatever you want to call them (four if you want to count the eventual HA UD UB)..
    • Forward Dodge Bash + Forward Dodge Light (Undodgeable), not interuptible if chaining into itself, but bash is very vulnerable, even to GB it seems.
    • Chain Bash Feintable Kick Mixup: 19dmg, chains back to itself, OK but bad recovery on miss and isn't really comparable to those focused on it like Jormungundr/Highlander.
    • Dirty Trick + Undodgeable Heavy Finisher: OK alone, but really shines near a wall where it becomes a 37dmg + 28dmg Orange/Blue mixup. She'll join the Afeera/Jorm/Nuxia of "stay the f#ck away from walls against her" club. Possibly 39dmg -- decent throw range means likely people will find a way to land a Finisher Heavy
  • Combo Gauge is usually not filled by end of battle in duels, or if so allows an attack or so. It's moreover a teamfight tool, and "eventual win condition if given the opportunity" in some fights akin to Sohei souls.
  • Deflect will be interesting, may be very interruptible. However, if not, it will put her with Gladiator and Berzerker in being able to nigh guarantee a throw in some mixups no matter the opponent options, she'll be able to use environments well.

Assessment

Overall, she's looking like she'll be fun. Spammy in some regards, especially the Twinstrike Light and Forward Dodge Mixup, but that's heavily punished. Everything else is very punishable, and she'll feel "fair" overall as and against.

Viability, really failing to see her ever making too much an impact. All of the things that makes meta strong, she lacks. People on reddit have a tendency to look at properties like "oh X has unblockable", but there is a huge difference between the Unblockable on JJ vs the Unblockable on Medjay's Axe Finishers. Medjay has 400ms Lights and Unblockables and Undodgeables and a infinite Bash in his Axe mode, but JJ "just" has a slower Unblockable-- why isn't his Axe Mode super OP in teamfights and JJ trash? That's the exact reason Arakure is going to be OK but not super strong, she is that Axe mode, lots of properties, lacking in some strong fundamentals like recovery and hitboxes and high HP that makes others great. She's not Medjay Axe Stance bad ofc, she's got tools, she'll be able to do stuff, she is by no means horrendous just outside the first week when people are learning her and Youtuber's are clip-farming, do not expect to be carried by the character.

Personally, really hoping she gets some way in-kit to gain HP or barrier like her chain kick doing less damage but some barrier with "hardened shins", or her gauge depleting a level heals her as a "Cool Off", or her Tier 2 combo Dirty Trick also gives some small perma barrier on each hit based on nearby enemies, some way for her to rotate fights and keep sustain up. She'd be the perfect character for a low HP but moderate healing that encourages scrapping and risks. I'm also sad she has absolutely 0 stamina tools or places she can trade-off damage/chaining to recover stamina, would be so cool to give-up a chain or damage and do a little taunt instead to regain momentum, or have her combo gauge grant a stam consumption or regeneration buff.

I'm also a bit upset to the degree which her power is put into Back+Light as her only real safe tool, and was hoping something else would have it. Chain Heavies would be awesome to have Dodge RC on whiff as a slow safe tool to contrast her Twinstrike Heavy, and if she could get it on GB and Parry that'd keep her safe in teamfight punishes.

Gosh she's ho- err, really cool, respectfully ofc. UBI SHE'S GREAT BUT PLEASE GIVE A FULL FACE MASK OPTION IM BEGGIN-

Anyways, guess we'll find out more tomorrow. She's a nuanced character akin to Khatun in some regard, she'll have a lot of fun interactions. Can't wait to explore them. Ty ubi

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u/VoidGliders — 28 days ago