u/gabeg777

A common analysis seems to be that Cass would definitely be against assisted suicide because she'd consider it to be murder and that her total focus is on keeping people from dying. I have been thinking and I'm starting to disagree with that opinion. People request assisted suicide because they're in extreme pain and doctors only agree to it if there's no chance that they'll recover.

The opinion that Cass would be against it ignores that preventing death isn't Cass' only goal. Going back to Batgirl (2000) #23, written by Kelly Puckett, Cass handles hostage situations by making sure the scared hostages see her and know that help has arrived. She's horrified when she accidentally scares children. In Batgirl (2000) #16, when the young boy is depressed and admits to wondering if having a murderous father makes him a bad person, Cass is upset and desperate to calm the boy. She is projecting with her answer and trying to reassure herself that she's a good person but she also wants the boy to feel better. Batgirl (2000) #19 is Cass projecting her guilt and the circumstances of her murder onto the killer on Death Row but also important to her characterization is that she agrees to allow the execution and continuing to think of herself as a murderer because she wants the mother of the dead child to feel better. She considers the woman's happiness and wishes to be more important than hers.

I agree that Cass would hate assisted suicide but when confronted with a patient requesting it and how much pain life is for them, she'd probably agree to allow them to kill themselves even though it would feed her suicidal mentality.

Who are the family and friends of each member of the Batfamily?

Alfred, Damian, Dick, Jason, and Tim are Bruce's main family members from what I know. Barbara and Jim Gordon and very good friends of his. I think it's possible to argue that the children of Gotham are also part of his family or that he sees them as close friends and that they consider him to be part of their family, though it's only through emotion on each side. Bruce, in his Batman uniform, is very happy to comfort children, listen to their worries, and spend time with them simply because they want him nearby. I'm not certain if it's ever shown in comics but an episode of Batman: The Animated Series shows children being very protective of Batman when he gets hurt. Bruce lost his parents and had no friends while attending school after being orphaned. I could see him connecting to Gotham's children, even when he doesn't adopt them, to fill the emotional hole from his childhood.

Cass had no friends and no family other than David when she was growing up. She then spent eight years homeless with no one caring about her or for her to care about. It's safe to say that she was extremely lonely when she met Barbara. Barbara and Bruce are family to her and Duke and Steph are her best friends in comics. I'd argue that the populace of Gotham are also family to her and that they consider her to be family, like Bruce with Gotham's children. As Batgirl, she's willing to spend time calming them down when they're upset, hates when she accidentally scares people (especially children), and is very willing to listen to requests and fulfill them even when she disagrees. Gotham's populace enjoys teasing Batgirl, is comfortable arguing with her, and has been shown worrying about her safety.

Steph hasn't abandoned Arthur and Crystal as her parents. Cass and Jason are friends. She's not lonely enough to need additional family but Gotham's children care deeply about her. When she was in the hospital as Batgirl after getting a Black Mercy flower attached to her, multiple children, including Nell Little, stayed at the hospital with her worrying about her safety. They were very happy and relieved when she woke up.

It appears to me that Bruce and Cass both attach to Gotham's people, only the children in Bruce's case, to replace the family and friends they didn't have when they were growing up. Is that a valid theory?

Who are the most important people in Bruce's life, the people who have helped him grow? I'm not a Bruce expert as Cass is my favorite Gotham character and she's never important in Batman comics, only in tie-ins and sideshow comics. I have a little knowledge but I'm willing to have it corrected as any of this could be way off the mark.

Cass fans like arguing that Cass is Bruce's favorite child because of how similar she is to him but that's using her viewpoint instead of Bruce's. Others argue that he doesn't have a favorite child because he cares all about all of his children equally but that seems to be using Batman: Wayne Family Adventures instead of the comics. I have a hard time not seeing Dick as his favorite child, the one he's known the longest and the first child he took in. Bruce gets a lot of character growth from having Dick around, including being less suicidal.

Jason, at least before his death, helps Bruce be a happier and more optimistic person.

Tim argues with Bruce in order to help him improve and be a better person. That was used in the final part of Chip Zdarksky's run on Batman with Tim being the Robin who was most persistent in trying to find Bruce and convince him to return to Gotham and fight Failsafe.

Damian is, from what I have heard though it could be very inaccurate, the first child who Bruce takes full responsibility for parenting which, if true, would have him growing as a character.

Bruce admires Duke but I don't know of any character growth that he gained from knowing Duke or any lessons he learned.

Cass fans argue that Bruce changed from learning Cass but, having read Batgirl 2000, I have a hard time seeing those changes. Barbara, on the other hand, learned how to be a mentor and big sister from knowing Cass. Unfortunately, changes in Barbara's characterization from knowing Cass were minimal because Gail Collins refused to discuss the relationship between Cass and Barbara in her Birds of Prey comic even though the Batgirl comic shows Cass as being extremely important to Barbara. Most of the references to Cass in Birds of Prey were Dinah discussing Cass helping her train in issue 61, instead of discussing Cass' role in Barbara's life and having her help Barbara. If Bruce did grow from having Cass in his life, the Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive story is the most likely source but Cass, while being an emotional center of the story, didn't interact much with Bruce in it. David Cain, Cass' father, framed Bruce and set up the situation where Bruce learned that he needed his family. It appears that Bruce gets more character growth from Cass' father then from Cass herself. The War Games story, at least temporarily, removed the character growth from Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive story by removing Bruce's family again when the prior story had been intended to cement the Batfamily in Batman stories.

My prior post was terrible. Barbara, Bruce, and Dick are the archetypes who will always be the only mainstream heroes in Gotham. Cass and the others are interesting characters with plenty to admire but their character path and interactions are their focus and that means they'll always be in a niche for those who connect to them. They're popular in comics which should satisfy me if I'm not being a brat. My whining and arrogance was heading me in the direction of being a resentful hater and a monster.

In terms of differences, I forgot that even good dad Bruce is unwilling to socialize with people and has trouble accepting gratitude when he's Batman, as shown after he rescues people during Bruce Wayne: Fugitive. In modern comics, he's still uncertain how to interact with regular people, excluding his romances with women which always fail at some point. He only interacts well with children. He only socializes as Bruce and that's when he's hiding his true self. I'm not certain how the romance in the current Batman series fits Bruce's character path though it's new that his civilian girlfriend knows that Bruce is Batman. Cass is more sociable as Batgirl than Bruce is as Batman.

Another difference is that, even though Bruce hates corrupt police, he's more obedient to police in general, and especially his best friend Jim Gordon, than to civilians. Cass, on the other hand, focuses on requests from civilians and not information from police officers.

Bruce helps upset children while Cass helps upset people of all ages.

Bruce trained himself to hide his emotions and have self-control while Cass' emotions are visible even with her cowl that covers her entire face. She's not as good a planner as Bruce but she responds quicker, though less carefully, when people are hurt.

Is this accurate when taking into account Bruce who's not a loner or am I still missing something?

Whenever I'm reminded that emotionally intelligent Batman who tries to cheer up children and hates scaring them is a version that exists, I'm reminded why Bruce is an admirable character but I'm also wondering why Cass as Batgirl exists. Every time I look at that version, it seems that Cass as Batgirl is almost identical and the only differences make her less able to help people. They have almost the same trauma so what's the point in connecting to Cass instead of Bruce?

New 52 Bruce had no friends in school and, in fact, left school early so his social isolation was comparable to Cass'. Neither understand people well. Bruce has high-level body language skills, though not Cass' reading it as her first language. Cass is more honest and less manipulative than Bruce but that also means she's a bad spy and less flexible than Bruce. Cass does seem more obedient to the requests of civilians than Bruce but that's probably why she's never shown with children as Bruce regularly helps children with their requests. Gothamites like the Batgirls but they, or at least children, love Batman and he chats with them happily. Cass' emotion reading from her body language isn't a difference from emotionally intelligent Batman who pays attention to children's emotions. Cass is known for being visible to hostages even when it means she fails to hide from their captors but emotionally intelligent Bruce was regularly written as doing the same in the 1960s comics and TV show. That's where all of the bat-traps came from.

I can see non-hero Cass being interesting as Bruce helps her but all of my analysis of Cass' trauma and admirable traits seem to be identical to good dad Bruce's. All of the differences seem to make her an inferior protector to Bruce and a boring hero. What am I missing that would allow family man Batman and Cass as Batgirl to be different and Cass to not be either inferior or a boring clone? Is it that I only connect with her because I found her from being a Superman fan but I should just admit that non-loner Bruce is the only character I should actually care about? Is it that Bruce fans exaggerate his good traits and empathy? Am I missing some other solution to my feelings of being over-insulting to Batman fans? Am I overthinking things and it's fine to prefer the Batgirls to Batman and Robin and should just accept that I'll always be in an extremely tiny minority? I'd be able to fit better with Batgirl fans who like Batman if I knew how to like Cass as Batgirl, think she's not terrible to children, and see some areas that she's potentially better than good dad Bruce. I know I'm being stupid but I could use help figuring out the heart of my failure. As it is, I'm tempted to say that the many fics where good dad Bruce and Dick are the only heroes and the other kids are children who Bruce adopts and helps are the only way to truly respect Bruce as Batman.

I'm still upset at how Batgirl (2000) #73 ended by reversing every ounce of character growth and thematic development Cass had experienced since her introduction in No Man's Land but I think I have figured out how to accept her temporary killing of Shiva as in character, though that should never have been the final issue. Her reaction and growth from handling her decision and mistakes needed to be explored. Unfortunately, we got Cass as a villain and Cass in Hong Kong instead. I know the metatextual explanation is that the page was preparing to either kill off Cass or turn her into a villain but I'm trying to figure out how to have it as an action that she takes that doesn't shred her prior characterization, especially after she refuses to kill Shiva in issue 25.

Does it fit that Cass is following her behavior that was shown in issue 19 where she values other people's wishes that will make them happier even when it goes against her moral code and hurts her? In issue 19, the mother wants the execution to occur while Cass is against allowing anyone to die but when she sees how upset the woman is at the idea of her child's killer living, she accedes and allows the execution even though she feels like a cruel killer for allowing it to occur. Similarly, Shiva wants to die and Cass is depressed enough from her feelings of failure in the earlier issues to be unwilling to argue unlike in issue 25 when she was unwilling to kill Shiva even though it's what she wanted. Cass' failure to save people in issues 71-72, her failure to help Victor Fries and his wife, and her failure to protect Bludhaven's people added up to her feeling worthless. Is this the explanation that everyone else already figured out or is there a more in character reason that I'm missing?

The deluxe edition of Batgirl: Year One is getting re-released in January 2027. Batgirl: Year One is coming out in a compact edition in February 2027. Cassandra's earliest stories are coming out in a DC Finest collection in January 2027. An omnibus of Cassandra stories is coming in February 2027. The most recent Birds of Prey series is getting an omnibus release in June 2027.

That's a lot of Batgirl-related announcements for Barbara and Cassandra, though not Stephanie. Is this related to Batgirl #25 coming out in November and, just like DC had a bunch of Supergirl announcements in the solicitations announced in July to help market the Supergirl movie, these will be officially announced in this month's solicitation list to go alongside the 25th issue?

Does anyone have any idea why comicbookroundup.com has been unable to find reviews for the current Batgirl series from any of the major reviewers? AIPT was doing regular reviews until issue 20 but skipped issue 21 and looks like they won't review the new issue. Is this a sign that the current series is considered to be boring and/or not great for Cass or is there some other reason? Is it still the majority opinion online that Batgirl 2000 is the only good series Cass has ever received?

Batgirl 2024 is apparently selling well enough for DC to use the new logo for the upcoming Cass omnibus.

The US is a country in moral decay. The mainstream in the US is focused on divisiveness, punishing anyone we disagree with, and fearmongering to keep us scared instead of having the confidence to make good decisions. That fearmongering can be about supposedly high crime rates, demons controlling children, immigrants, and almost anything else. The US also is historically individualistic to an insane degree. We need moral examples to counter this. Most of the hero archetypes aren't great at countering these problems. Princess Diana and the amazons on Themyscira are another matter. Wonder Woman should be the main superhero archetype being promoted and, if we want to heal as a country, she should be considered a better example to emulate and admire than Batman, Spider-Man, or Superman. They aren't bad heroes but they're part of the status quo that badly needs to be reformed.

Diana is a diplomat and teacher instead of being a police officer focused on punishing criminals (people we disagree with). Teachers are badly undervalued in the US and we put too much focus on soldiers instead of diplomats in our foreign policy. Batman and Superman often behave like soldiers and police officers and are often written that way explicitly. The Batsignal is on the roof of the GCPD HQ and Superman has often been called a super police officer by the people writing his stories. Wonder Woman was created as a diplomat and teacher by William Moulton Marston and that remains her core. The amazons in general work together as a community instead of promoting individual greatness. That focus on groups instead of individuals goes back to Etta Candy and the Holliday Girls. Diana has more of a focus on making people feel safe and comfortable instead of just saving lives. She's more likely than most other heroes to trust that people know what they need instead of imposing her will and opinions on them.

There are other heroes who deserve more emulation and mass market admiration for aspects of this but Wonder Woman is the archetype who demonstrates all of these aspects that the US undervalues and needs to pay more attention to. Helena Bertinelli and Jefferson Pierce are also teachers who help people become wiser. Duke Thomas also promotes working together as a community instead of the individualism and libertarianism that has too much dominance in our society. Cassandra Cain also tries to make people feel safe emotionally instead of simply rescuing people and considering their job to be done and she also trusts people's requests as being what they need instead of assuming that she's wiser than them.

Wonder Woman and the culture of Themyscira needs to be promoted in mainstream US much more heavily as an archetype to emulate instead of the status quo that has led to the current cruelty running the country. Wonder Woman and the heroes who share her philosophy get too little attention outside of superhero fandom.

Whenever Cass refers to Bruce in post-Infinite Frontier comics and especially after the Batgirls series, she refers to him as her father. Whenever Bruce interacts with his family or refers to the people who are emotionally closest to him, he's with Damian, Dick, Tim, and occasionally Jason, but never Cass even though he adopted her as a daughter. Every scene where Bruce cares about Cass has him caring about Duke and Steph in the same way even though he never adopted them. People who aren't part of the batfamily but know them well, like Ra's al Ghul and Lady Shiva, are prone to referring to Cass as the daughter of the bat.

I think people, including my past thinking, have been misinterpreting Bruce's relationship to Cass. Cass loved being adopted by Bruce and thinks of him as a father for giving her a way to connect to people by protecting them and a family even if it's imperfect and often separates into pieces. Bruce, on the other hand, cares about Cass but not as a daughter and not as a Wayne. He cares about both Cass and Steph as children who were hurt by their parents but who he wasn't involved with as a parent. Batgirl (2008) #1 shows that Alfred pushed Bruce to bring Cass into the Wayne family. Alfred wanted Cass as a grandchild and wanted to help her grow and heal, as shown by his advice to her in Batgirl (2000) #49 and Batman and the Outsiders (2007) #13 and his behavior in Batgirl (2000) #45, while Bruce trusted Cass' competence but never noticed when she needed help. Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl fits that as Bruce thinks Cass is healthy with Tim contacting her while Alfred is worried about her lack of contact with Barbara, Bruce, and Steph. It feels to me like Alfred was more of a parent to Cass than Bruce ever was. After Alfred's death, Cass has no one close to Bruce to push him to help her which leaves her with Barbara, Steph, and Shiva as the people pushing her to grow. Ra's and Shiva recognize Cass' behavioral similarities to Batman and, knowing that Bruce is Batman, may think that Bruce should be her parent but they can't control the fact that Bruce is closer to his sons and doesn't consider himself to have any daughters.

Bruce cares about helping Damian, Dick, and Tim grow and trying to be a parent to them but he's unwilling to even try to be a father for Cass, Jason after his resurrection, and Steph. Alfred wanted Bruce to be a father for Cass but Bruce was unwilling. He treated Duke and Steph poorly but always showed more compassion for Cass. Bruce's behavior towards Cass in Batgirl (2000) #1-37, especially his paying attention to Cass' birthday in issue 33, could be treated as wanting to be a father for Cass but comics after Batgirl 2000 and the lack of attention paid to her in comics focused on Bruce's family even after her adoption in Batgirl (2008) #6 say outright that Bruce doesn't consider her to be part of his family no matter how much Alfred and her wanted him to be her father.

When Tim was introduced, he was designed to be similar to Peter Parker/Spider-Man in terms of being a relatable character. In my opinion, they messed up and Cass and Steph are more like Peter than Tim is.

Steph had to work hard to be accepted as a hero by the bats and by Dinah. Throughout Robin (1993) and all the way up to War Games, she was ridiculed when she tried to be a hero and had her secret identity disrespected. Tim did gain respect for her but the writers often had him backslide and go back to insulting her competence. Cass trusted Steph as a good person but distrusted her abilities. Similarly, Peter had difficulty being accepted by the superhero community. When he tried to join the Fantastic Four, they rejected him. It took a while for other heroes to trust him as a partner and to stop thinking he was too young to be a superhero.

Steph considers Cass to be a friend but Cass' easier time being accepted by Bruce can cause trouble with the friendship. Similarly, Peter considers Jonathan Storm/the Human Torch to be a friend but Jonathan's membership in the Fantastic Four when the rest of the members distrusted Peter's competence, though not his morality, complicated their interactions.

Steph and Peter are both very skilled at helping people with emotional problems and not just saving lives.

Cass and Peter, as Batgirl and Spider-Man, both wear masks that cover their entire faces so people have a hard time figuring out what they're feeling until they get to know the heroes. Their full-face masks and strange behavior, especially when it comes to Cass, means they unintentionally scare people at points. That was especially true when they were new to being heroes in Gotham City and New York City respectively. On the other hand, once they have been protecting their city for a while, civilians consider Cass and Peter to be two of the friendliest heroes around. Amazing Spider-Man (1999) #40 shows a civilian sharing popcorn with Spider-Man while he's sticking to the wall of the apartment complex. Birds of Prey (2023) #25 shows civilians taking a picture of themselves with Barda and Cass while Barda comments that Cass introduced her to them, saying that they're Batgirl's friends. Batgirl (2024) #2 shows Ba Bao teasing Batgirl. Detective Comics #955 shows Christine Montclair helping Orphan with her problems just like civilians have realized that Spider-Man is imperfect and trust him anyways. Pre-Flashpoint Cass wasn't written this way but the potential was there as shown by Batgirl (2000) #19, where a civilian considers it safe to argue with Batgirl, and Batgirl (2000) #16, where a child opens up emotionally to Batgirl. She was already trusted by civilians when she didn't accidentally scare them. In modern comics, Cass appears to be a friendly neighborhood Batgirl just like Peter has been known as a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man for decades.

Steph has a similar character path to Peter in pre-Flashpoint comics though post-Flashpoint comics where there's less focus on her family and more focus on her leadership abilities appear to have reduced her similarities to Peter. They're still similar in being two of the best heroes at helping people with their daily lives and not just superhero problems. Cass, especially in post-New 52 comics, doesn't get as much admiration as Batman and Superman get but civilians enjoy interacting with Batgirl in their daily lives just like civilians in Marvel's New York enjoy chatting with Spider-Man. I think Spider-Man fans who give Cass and Steph a chance would find them to be more interesting than the other bats.

I'm trying to decide how worthwhile it will be to grab the Sunset and Sunrise comics that begin and end the event as someone who's more interested in the Batgirls and Signal than in Batman and the Robins, or whether the tie-ins that focus on Duke and Steph and the Batgirl series are the only places that they'll be prominent in.

I'm currently guessing that Bad Seeds: Sunset will show how all of the bats in Gotham, which means no Dick Grayson, react to Poison Ivy's creations and having them split up to protect different places in Gotham with Batman going to GCPD HQ as mentioned in the synopsis to Batman #13. As a result, I'm guessing that Cass, Duke, and Steph will be important in that comic.

It seems clear that as the event goes, Cass, Duke, and Steph will all end up together at Gotham General hospital. Duke is on the D covers for both issues of Gotham General, so it's likely that he's focused on protecting the hospital. The B cover of Gotham Central #2 shows Steph having been injured and the main cover of Gotham General #2 appears to show Steph getting medical treatment. It looks like she gets badly hurt while working with Jim Gordon and his partner Espinoza, probably courtesy of Mr. Zsasz, and ends up getting emergency medical treatment at the hospital. Batgirl #24 focuses on Cass rushing an ill infant to Gotham General. With all of this, it's safe to say that by the end of Gotham General #2, Cass and Duke are both at the hospital and worrying over Steph.

I'm very unsure whether Bad Seeds: Sunrise will do much with Cass, Duke, and Steph. I'm guessing that the comic will focus on Batman stopping Poison Ivy and her creations after having kept Vandal Savage from killing her. The Robins don't have much role in the tie-ins and Dick stays in Gotham for this night as mentioned in the synopsis for Nightwing #143. I'm assuming that Damian, Dick, and a Tim who has come out of retirement will be helping Batman. Cass, Duke, and Steph probably begin the comic at the hospital. Will they remain at the hospital, keeping the patients and staff safe, or go to help in the fight against Poison Ivy? How much role will a healing but still badly hurt Steph play? Bruce regularly continued fighting even when badly injured in the Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight series, Batman: D.O.A. shows him searching for a kidnapped child while dying from poison, and there are probably other examples of Bruce fighting while injured. Cass fights while dying or barely conscious in Batgirl (2000) #72, Batgirl (2024) #2, and Batgirl (2024) #17-19. Dick got shot in the head, needed emergency treatment before having permanent damage, and continued to fight the villain in the final chapter of Batman: R.I.P. and he's probably done the same type of action in other stories. Will Steph insist on either protecting the hospital or helping out against Poison Ivy even though she's recovering from nearly dying and isn't healthy or at her fullest abilities? Will Batman and the Robins get practically all of the attention with Cass, Duke, and Steph only cameoing at the hospital or will they get actual focus in the comic?

I'm reasonably confident that Bad Seeds: Sunset will have Cass, Duke, and Steph among the characters focused on but I'm uncertain whether the same will be true of Bad Seeds: Sunrise. I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on whether or not Sunset and Sunrise will focus on Batman and the Robins.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DawoWeAjSNK/

https://www.instagram.com/p/DbRBtdMCb7t/

https://www.instagram.com/p/DbNBoNEjTfu/

https://www.instagram.com/p/DbJPka6Fewr/

https://damionscott.com/original-art-3

Damion Scott is creating a lot of Cassandra Cain art and Batgirl #25 is approaching. Tate mentioned at SDCC that David Cain will be returning after Bad Seeds and with issue 24 being part of Bad Seeds, that confirms that the series will be passing issue 25. Right now, Damion is just selling the art. Is Batgirl #25 going to be story only or is there a chance that it will include a small gallery of Cass art? The first of the links has art that would make a good wraparound cover for a comic.

A confusing aspect of Cass is whether her primary loyalty is to the symbol of the bat or to Batman specifically. Which she's loyal to affects how she behaves. If she's loyal to Batman, then she'll never break with him no matter what he does which means that in stories with bad dad Bruce, she hurts Duke and Jason and Steph. If she's loyal to the symbol, then she is willing to break with bad dad Bruce in order to help the family. It also affects her ghosting of Steph. If her primary loyalty is to the symbol, then she ghosts Steph when she's depressed but is still protecting people when she does it. If she's loyal to Batman, then she ghosts Steph because of Batman's orders even when she disagrees with them, which I have seen in some stories. I see different authors writing different things so I'm trying to figure out what canon shows.

In Batgirl (2000) #1-54, Cass is very loyal to Batman and trusts him but she disobeys him when she disagrees with him. Issues 6, 7, and 48-50 are solid demonstrations of Cass disobeying Batman. Issue 50 has her saying outright that she's loyal to the symbol and Batman's mission but not to Batman or Bruce. In those issues, her interpretation of the mission appears to differ from Bruce's. While Bruce focuses on preventing violent crime in order to keep people from being hurt, and especially keep any children from being orphaned like he was, Cass focuses on stopping murderers like herself and making sure people aren't scared. Bruce also comforts children as part of his mission while Cass tries to alleviate people's emotional pain and takes people's requests seriously. During this period, her primary loyalty appears to be to the symbol of the bat and Gotham's citizens. Bruce is second in her loyalty and Barbara and Steph both come after Bruce.

In Batgirl (2000) #58-73, after War Games and Steph's death, Cass is willing to abandon Tim and Bludhaven and her promise to Bruce to protect Tim and her intention to learn how to replace Batman if need be in favor of searching for her mother. Tim considers Cass to be loyal to Batman and not the mission but that seems to be him misunderstanding Cass. Her willingness to leave Bludhaven instead of following Bruce's wishes shows that she's still more loyal to her interpretation of what's necessary than to Batman's orders. Cass seems to be less loyal to Bludhaven's citizens than she was to Gotham's populace. That could be because she was in Gotham long enough, including during No Man's Land, to emotionally connect to the populace and have them as part of the people who make her feel less lonely but she never gained the same connection with the people of Bludhaven.

In Batman and the Outsiders (2007) #13-14, Cass is planning to continue protecting Gotham even after Bruce's death. That fits with her primary loyalty being to Gotham and its people and to the mission.

When Cass changes her mind after the Battle for the Cowl and leaves Gotham for Hong Kong in order to deal with Bruce's death, it appears that she's showing more loyalty to Batman than to either the mission or Gotham's people, though that doesn't fit with her previous behavior. Cass' line in the flashback in Batgirl (2009) #1 about only fighting for Batman is especially egregious in contradicting her previous behavior. Red Robin (2009) #17's line about thinking Cass needed Batgirl more than her is also surprising. Batgirl (2008) was supposed to be Cass regaining her belief that she can help people in order to try to improve but the abandonment of her usual loyalties seems to show that she's still not fully over her guilt from the murders she committed while drugged. Red Robin (2009) #17 shows Cass as not worrying about Hong Kong's people being scared, unlike in Bludhaven and Gotham, which fits with depression and guilt strongly affecting her behavior.

Batman and the Outsiders (2019) #7 shows her disobeying Batman's orders while focusing on helping Duke.

Looking at canon, I'm not certain where people get the idea that Cass' primary loyalty is to Batman. Instead, it appears to be to Batman's mission and symbol and to Gotham's populace for trusting her and enjoying her presence even though her behavior is unusual and can scare them. Cass is definitely more loyal to the symbol of the bat than to Steph. Whether she's more loyal to Bruce or to Steph is more confusing. In Batgirl (2000) #38, Cass expresses more trust in Bruce's opinion about Steph than her own. In Batgirl (2000) #55 on the other hand, Cass ignores Barbara's orders and even shows resistance to Bruce's orders in favor of searching for Steph. That also contradicts Tim's claim in Batman Allies Secret Files that Cass never disobeys Batman, though Tim has never had much interaction with Cass at this point and has said outright that he doesn't understand her and doesn't see her as a friend, so his view of her isn't trustworthy to be accurate. On the whole, I would say that Cass is equally loyal to Bruce and to her friends in the batfamily (Duke and Steph). She's willing to kill for Batman in Batgirl (2000) #15 but I don't know of any evidence that she'd do the same for Bruce. She wants to hurt Duke's kidnapper instead of being gentle in Batman and the Outsiders (2019) #7. Issues 941 and 981 of Detective Comics (2016) show her trusting Steph's decisions and orders just like she trusts Bruce's.

I could use an honest evaluation of my AU at https://www.reddit.com/r/CassandraCain/comments/1p6rkm9/outline\_for\_au\_cassandra\_adopting\_orphans/. I hope it's in-character but I may have been projecting on Cass and glorifying her. I have been expanding the AU but that relies on the assumption that it's not fundamentally erroneous and unrealistic for her themes and characterization. I was thinking of Cass' way of parenting children with help from Steph and possibly Pamela also as another way of forcing her to make her own decisions and learn responsibilities and integrate into society but that assumes she doesn't harm them and doesn't abandon them through her impulsiveness. I have been too argumentative and opinionated and need to try listening instead of assuming I know better.

but-a-humble-goon is one of the Cass experts at Tumblr and thinks Bruce is better at caring for children than Cass. Luvo's stories at AO3, especially the one at https://archiveofourown.org/works/87576596, and the commentary on Batgirl (2000) #37 are reminding me that Cass never fully rejects David's abuse of her. I forgot to take into account the possibility that Cass would badly scare or physically abuse the children when trying to handle behavior from them that she doesn't know how to handle.

On top of that, while issues 2, 4-6, and 48 of Batgirl (2000) seem to show her as loyal, focusing on helping John Robinson, the psychic, and the baby in issue 48 whenever they need help and no matter what's in her way, the Destruction's Daughter story shows her as not being loyal to anyone except her selfish and impulsive decisions. Jason searched for his mother after he got fired as Robin and had no responsibilities to Bruce or Gotham. Cass went searching and, in the process, broke her promise from Batgirl (2000) #58 to Bruce to protect Tim, stopped trying to learn how to replace him as Batman which she claimed was important in Batgirl (2000) #58, and abandoned Bludhaven and Tim to Oswald Cobblepot's criminal activities.

Was my prior assumption that Cass being bad with children is a common assumption that people make because most fans focus on her interactions with the other bats instead of civilians and her hatred of scaring children (shown in issues 18 and 53 of Batgirl (2000)) and help from Steph would cause her to improve or is she just a broken person with no loyalty to anyone and no ability to handle new situations who would always harm anyone she's responsible for? I have seen fics with Cass as a parent, including one where she adopts Link from the Legend of Zelda, but are they also unrealistic?

Why are there a ton of fics claiming that Bruce and the rest of the Batfam regularly ignore Tim until he nearly dies or leaves the family when Cass and Steph actually got that treatment? https://archiveofourown.org/works/88747966/chapters/235497226 is an example of this type of fic. Supposedly, Bruce ignores Tim so that Tim is invisible and his parents also paid no attention to him.

When it comes to a lack of attention from parents, Steph fits the bill as someone to sympathize with and project onto as Crystal ignored her husband's abuse of her daughter and Steph had to learn how to do chores and survive with little to no help from her parents. Steph had a lot of anger towards her mother because of how little Crystal did to help Steph when she was growing up.

When it comes to Bruce ignoring Tim, that's not accurate. Robin (1993) #70 and many other issues showed Bruce taking care of Tim when he was injured. While Tim was in Bludhaven, Bruce checked in on him regularly which is how he learned about Tim's fake uncle. That's the period when Bruce adopted Tim as a Wayne. After he came back from the past, Bruce appeared regularly in Red Robin (2009). Bruce pays more attention to Tim than almost any of his other children.

The actual victims of becoming invisible and ignored by Bruce are Cass and Steph. That's how Cass became a villain. Bruce let Cass try to find her mother without offering any help because he trusted her abilities and she ended up temporarily dead and so depressed that she intended to wander the world without being Batgirl. Bruce, Dick, and Tim went on vacation after Infinite Crisis leaving Cass to be attacked by Deathstroke. Supergirl (2005) #14 says explicitly that Bruce and Tim knew that Cass was leading the League of Assassins and killing people and neither of them cared enough to see why she had stopped being a hero. Batgirl (2008) #1 focuses on Alfred and Bruce and Tim admitting how little attention they paid to Cass. After Bruce returned from the past, he saw no need to check up on Cass in Hong Kong and ignored Cass' extreme depression, extreme guilt, and the fact that she missed him badly. Steph, meanwhile, regularly got ignored by Bruce after he ordered to stop protecting people as Spoiler, which is how he missed her stealing his plans and starting a massive gang war. He also completely ignored her after the Bruce Wayne: Fugitive story, including refusing to continue training her even though he had promised to help her before he got arrested. He abandoned Steph and broke his promise.

This projection onto Tim is out of control and shows a lack of respect for the canon characters. These fics should be about either Steph's treatment by her parents and Bruce or Bruce ignoring Cass, with Steph probably being the best choice for projecting onto. https://archiveofourown.org/works/48048418/chapters/121153249 is one of the few good fics discussing Tim's relationship with his parents and their imperfect parenting.

Why are there a ton of fics claiming that Bruce and the rest of the Batfam regularly ignore Tim until he nearly dies or leaves the family when Cass and Steph actually got that treatment? Supposedly, Bruce ignores Tim so that Tim is invisible and his parents also paid no attention to him.

When it comes to a lack of attention from parents, Steph fits the bill as someone to sympathize with and project onto as Crystal ignored her husband's abuse of her daughter and Steph had to learn how to do chores and survive with little to no help from her parents. Steph had a lot of anger towards her mother because of how little Crystal did to help Steph when she was growing up.

When it comes to Bruce ignoring Tim, that's not accurate. Robin (1993) #70 and many other issues showed Bruce taking care of Tim when he was injured. While Tim was in Bludhaven, Bruce checked in on him regularly which is how he learned about Tim's fake uncle. That's the period when Bruce adopted Tim as a Wayne. After he came back from the past, Bruce appeared regularly in Red Robin (2009). Bruce pays more attention to Tim than almost any of his other children.

The actual victims of becoming invisible and ignored by Bruce are Cass and Steph. That's how Cass became a villain. Bruce let Cass try to find her mother without offering any help because he trusted her abilities and she ended up temporarily dead and so depressed that she intended to wander the world without being Batgirl. Bruce, Dick, and Tim went on vacation after Infinite Crisis leaving Cass to be attacked by Deathstroke. Supergirl (2005) #14 says explicitly that Bruce and Tim knew that Cass was leading the League of Assassins and killing people and neither of them cared enough to see why she had stopped being a hero. Batgirl (2008) #1 focuses on Alfred and Bruce and Tim admitting how little attention they paid to Cass. After Bruce returned from the past, he saw no need to check up on Cass in Hong Kong and ignored Cass' extreme depression, extreme guilt, and the fact that she missed him badly. Steph, meanwhile, regularly got ignored by Bruce after he ordered to stop protecting people as Spoiler, which is how he missed her stealing his plans and starting a massive gang war. He also completely ignored her after the Bruce Wayne: Fugitive story, including refusing to continue training her even though he had promised to help her before he got arrested. He abandoned Steph and broke his promise.

This projection onto Tim is out of control and shows a lack of respect for the canon characters. These fics should be about either Steph's treatment by her parents and Bruce or Bruce ignoring Cass, with Steph probably being the best choice for projecting onto. There are a few good fics discussing Tim's relationship with his parents and their imperfect parenting.

Cassandra, J'onn, and Kara are possibly the three most isolated characters in the DC universe. They lost their original family and are the only native speaker of their languages in the universe, which impacts how they view the world and is part of their culture.

J'onn has an advantage compared to the other three in fitting in by having telepathy, to help learn the US' culture and understand how he's expected to behave, and shape shifting, to help him look like an Earthling. That doesn't help with his isolation. In the Martian Manhunter and JLA series from the late 1990s, it was discussed that he had a bunch of identities in countries around the world. He handled his isolation by wanting to understand humanity as a normal person and experience a variety of cultures. It was commented at the time that he was the most prominent hero in the DC universe's southern hemisphere. His hero identity as the Martian Manhunter allows him to be a Martian and discuss his culture and the family he lost on Mars more openly then he can with human civilians. While understanding humanity is important to him, his closest friends are in the superhero community. His isolation has been reduced by having M'gann M'orzz as a fellow Martian in current stories and Mars having returned from another dimension in pre-Crisis comics. He's still one of the few Martians on Earth and he misses his wife and children deeply.

Kara was traumatized by seeing her family and friends die. Kal-El doesn't speak Kryptonian natively while Kara does. Kara wants to be admired as Supergirl as her cousin is but she doesn't think of Supergirl as an identity to connect to people in. She tries to get a stable human identity and job but has trouble doing so. Unlike J'onn, she doesn't have telepathy to make it easier to understand what people in the US expect out of her when trying to fit in. It doesn't help that her native Kryptonian culture is extremely important to her.

Cassandra's native language/culture being body language is commonly forgotten. Batgirl (2024) #3 messes up by having Shiva refer to that language as a language they share. Bruce and Shiva are two of the best non-native speakers of body language but it's still a foreign language for them and not the one their emotions and instincts operate in. Whatever Tate may claim, even Shiva doesn't understand Cassandra completely. J'onn and Kara try to connect to people as normal humans but Cassandra never even tries. She's like J'onn, whose best friends are the people who like him when he's not hiding as a human. Her closest friends and family are those she makes as Batgirl. Barbara Gordon, Christine Montclair, Harper Row, and Stephanie Brown try to convince her to treat her identity as Cassandra as important and she sometimes tries for a bit. Her period as a villain, her time in Hong Kong, and the fact that all of her true friends know her as Batgirl make it so that, even though fanon likes showing her as being Cassandra prominently, canon never shows that. It's actually realistic that, like Kara, she'll probably never know how to fit in and when she's Batgirl, people don't expect her to behave normally and instead want her compassion. She met her family of bats through her protectiveness towards Barbara's family which led to her becoming Batgirl. In canon, Batgirl (2000) #16, Batgirl (2000) #19, Batgirl (2024) #2, and Birds of Prey (2023) #25 show civilians arguing with her in a friendly manner, teasing her, worrying about her safety, and making requests of her, including by tugging her cape. Civilians appear to consider Batgirl to be a friend or big sister who they like hanging out with. When she's trying to emulate Batman (whether because he's dead or missing or because she was hating herself after her period as a villain), she focuses on vengeance and being a symbol of justice and isolates herself from people, but when she's being herself, she uses her protectiveness as Batgirl to try to convince people to like and trust her. Kara, on the hand, wants to be admired and trusted as Supergirl. It seems to me that Stephanie, in canon, has the best understanding of Cassandra's willingness to make friends and connect to people as Batgirl and recognizes that Batgirl is healthier for Cassandra than anyone else thinks.

J'onn misses his children from Mars and as the Martian Manhunter, he'd love to have human children like him and trust his advice. Kara is protective of children and doesn't want them to lose their families as she did. Cass wants people, including children to like and trust her. A cute image in my head is Batgirl letting excited children or toddlers drag her off to see something they consider interesting or important or simply to play with her. Does anyone else consider the images of the Martian Manhunter playing with children and the scary Batgirl being dragged by children to be interesting?