u/jbvine

I live in the Willamette Valley. But I’ve only been into wine for a year. Honestly I’m drawn to wines from warmer places (Applegate/Rogue valley for example, Rhône varieties). Anyways - I want to like Pinot noir. But I can’t afford 50 dollar bottles. The lower level stuff is so boring to me. They all taste similar. I can’t put into words well, but they taste kind of flat and similar to each other. BUT I had a bottle of the Christom Pinot noir from
2015 last week - a very special wine for me. It was incredible. Smooth. Balanced. Not that “annoying, sharp fruitiness”. More subtle. More complex flavors, dried fruit and earthiness. I know that cheap wines can suck and pricy ones don’t. But are all varieties like this or does Pinot noir tend to be more susceptible to this wide swing in taste? And the difference to he honest was
very subtle between the newer and old Pinots. But that slight balance and flavor difference made a huge difference! Seems like other grapes are more likable across the price points, or is that me?

Mass musings again

Good morning. As I’ve mentioned before, I am a Catholic who’s trying to sort of reconcile and integrate my Catholic faith with my belief in universal salvation. I haven’t had a lot of new ideas ideas the last few weeks, but today they seemed to be coming to me while I was at mass. I know many here are not Catholic and don’t expect many of you to read this, but for those who do, thank you!

1. Like usual, my big question is what is the meaning of the mass? And yes, maybe I’ve said some of this before, but I’m trying to understand and articulate it in slightly new ways. I think my central question is - if all are saved, then who cares about the mass?

But today I was pondering this:

I used to be sort of an evangelical, just believing a standard protestant version of Christianity. And then almost 30 years ago I converted to the Catholic Church. And I think what drew me in so much was the Catholic Church’s understanding of, and very deep appreciation of, and deep theology regarding the incarnation. So much of Catholicism is incarnational. The churches, the sacraments, the real presence, the rituals, the beauty, the physicality. In that sense, I think I converted because it seemed like this was a correct understanding of the importance of the incarnation. That God truly became man and permanently linked himself to matter and physicality.

But now I’m seeing that an issue with this view was that it didn’t really have a full union perspective, of course. The grace of the sacraments is only in the Catholic Church. Only the priest can perform the mass and make the Eucharist. Only the Catholic Church has the real presence of God in the Eucharist. The Union only extended to Catholics! Thats not enough!

But what if we look at this from a perspective of union. Let’s say that God is truly in union with all people, and for that matter, all things. Which I’m coming to believe, slowly, I think. Then the mass becomes a reminder that God is in union with all things. Again, we start with one thing, the Eucharist, the church, and then we expand that to more things until we understand that God’s presence is everywhere . So when the Priest says “the body of Christ”, well that’s true. Christ IS present in that bread. And initially we believe that he’s present ONLY in that bread. But what if this is just a teaching tool to teach us that not only is He present in THAT bread but in ALL people and things? What if that’s the point of the church’s rituals, to truly teach humanity that God IS present in the church, or in the one thing (Eucharist).Then from there, we can learn that he’s in ALL things? Most of us have to start somewhere?

This wouldn’t mean that the Catholic church is the best way or the only way to learn about union and God‘s presence in the world. But it seems like a way for Catholics to integrate the sacraments with the theology of union. I understand that many Catholics don’t understand union and many people here are not Catholic, and many here understand union much deeper than many Catholics. I am just trying to integrate these ideas. For me this really makes sense, that the church is good and the sacraments and rituals are good and they are teaching us to see God in one thing but then that should lead us to see God in all things.

2. I was also pondering my subjective feelings today when observing the mass. Previously before my understanding of union, I would have the surge of excitement and peace when the priest would consume the sacred host. I would have this experience of union between God and mankind, taking place in front of me in the ceremony. And then it will continue to communion for everyone there. But this union would only extend/relate to the people there. Now I really do sense that union between God and everybody and everything has already taken place! It’s the way it’s always been. And so there’s this real sense that that peace that I would previously experience at mass is there all the time! Am I always aware of it? No. Am I always happy? Of course not. But there is this real sense that there is this additional peace and security and joy all the time, sort of stabilizing life beneath the ups and the downs. And so I don’t really have that temporary, fragile experience of excitement and peace quite the same way, when I am at mass. I feel like I had it already before I walked in the door; it’s so much better!

3. People like Ilia Delio talk about the axial ages. I’m still learning what it means and don’t have a very deep understanding of it yet, but I think part of it means that religions developed at a certain point in human history when mankind needed them. Religion went from a “pagan”, nature worshiping religion to a more organized personal religion. I can’t help but think that we really need to, and are moving towards, a new axial age where religion needs to do much more than it’s currently doing. And I can’t help but think what that that should mean for churches like the Catholic Church. That union, the presence of God in all things, would be a core part of a new Christianity/Catholicism. In other words, maybe the seeds of this deeper understanding are in some of the church’s teachings and liturgies and prayers, but it should be much more fully and clearly clearly manifested in the future. I think that sort of spirituality/religion/understanding is what would truly draw people in and give them hope and meaning as we move forward.

4. Lastly, this came to mind today. Part of the mass is the purification right. This may seem silly or weird to protestants, but I’ve always found it incredibly beautiful and meaningful. Most priests after communion will spend several full minutes using special techniques to clean/purify the sacred vessels. So the chalice (cup)and the paten (metal plate) will be carefully wiped and cleaned off. Any fragments of host/bread will be carefully looked for and consumed, any leftover tiny pieces will be put in the chalice with water and consumed by the Priest. The whole point is to show the utmost respect for the physical presence of Jesus. And not let any of the fragments be lost. My thought today was: if God is present in all things, then this careful, loving, respectful, beautiful way of dealing with things in the world should apply to all things. It’s almost like a model to treat all things with dignity and respect and care. Of course those would mean people and yes, even animals first but also the world in general.

Peace!

Mass musings again

Good morning. As I’ve mentioned before, I am a Catholic who’s trying to sort of reconcile and integrate my Catholic faith with my belief in universal salvation. I haven’t had a lot of new ideas ideas the last few weeks, but today they seemed to be coming to me while I was at mass. I know many here are not Catholic and don’t expect many of you to read this, but for those who do, thank you!

1. Like usual, my big question is what is the meaning of the mass? And yes, maybe I’ve said some of this before, but I’m trying to understand and articulate it in slightly new ways. I think my central question is - if all are saved, then who cares about the mass?

But today I was pondering this:

I used to be sort of an evangelical, just believing a standard protestant version of Christianity. And then almost 30 years ago I converted to the Catholic Church. And I think what drew me in so much was the Catholic Church’s understanding of, and very deep appreciation of, and deep theology regarding the incarnation. So much of Catholicism is incarnational. The churches, the sacraments, the real presence, the rituals, the beauty, the physicality. In that sense, I think I converted because it seemed like this was a correct understanding of the importance of the incarnation. That God truly became man and permanently linked himself to matter and physicality.

But now I’m seeing that an issue with this view was that it didn’t really have a full union perspective, of course. The grace of the sacraments is only in the Catholic Church. Only the priest can perform the mass and make the Eucharist. Only the Catholic Church has the real presence of God in the Eucharist. The Union only extended to Catholics! Thats not enough!

But what if we look at this from a perspective of union. Let’s say that God is truly in union with all people, and for that matter, all things. Which I’m coming to believe, slowly, I think. Then the mass becomes a reminder that God is in union with all things. Again, we start with one thing, the Eucharist, the church, and then we expand that to more things until we understand that God’s presence is everywhere . So when the Priest says “the body of Christ”, well that’s true. Christ IS present in that bread. And initially we believe that he’s present ONLY in that bread. But what if this is just a teaching tool to teach us that not only is He present in THAT bread but in ALL people and things? What if that’s the point of the church’s rituals, to truly teach humanity that God IS present in the church, or in the one thing (Eucharist).Then from there, we can learn that he’s in ALL things? Most of us have to start somewhere?

This wouldn’t mean that the Catholic church is the best way or the only way to learn about union and God‘s presence in the world. But it seems like a way for Catholics to integrate the sacraments with the theology of union. I understand that many Catholics don’t understand union and many people here are not Catholic, and many here understand union much deeper than many Catholics. I am just trying to integrate these ideas. For me this really makes sense, that the church is good and the sacraments and rituals are good and they are teaching us to see God in one thing but then that should lead us to see God in all things.

2. I was also pondering my subjective feelings today when observing the mass. Previously before my understanding of union, I would have the surge of excitement and peace when the priest would consume the sacred host. I would have this experience of union between God and mankind, taking place in front of me in the ceremony. And then it will continue to communion for everyone there. But this union would only extend/relate to the people there. Now I really do sense that union between God and everybody and everything has already taken place! It’s the way it’s always been. And so there’s this real sense that that peace that I would previously experience at mass is there all the time! Am I always aware of it? No. Am I always happy? Of course not. But there is this real sense that there is this additional peace and security and joy all the time, sort of stabilizing life beneath the ups and the downs. And so I don’t really have that temporary, fragile experience of excitement and peace quite the same way, when I am at mass. I feel like I had it already before I walked in the door; it’s so much better!

3. People like Ilia Delio talk about the axial ages. I’m still learning what it means and don’t have a very deep understanding of it yet, but I think part of it means that religions developed at a certain point in human history when mankind needed them. Religion went from a “pagan”, nature worshiping religion to a more organized personal religion. I can’t help but think that we really need to, and are moving towards, a new axial age where religion needs to do much more than it’s currently doing. And I can’t help but think what that that should mean for churches like the Catholic Church. That union, the presence of God in all things, would be a core part of a new Christianity/Catholicism. In other words, maybe the seeds of this deeper understanding are in some of the church’s teachings and liturgies and prayers, but it should be much more fully and clearly clearly manifested in the future. I think that sort of spirituality/religion/understanding is what would truly draw people in and give them hope and meaning as we move forward.

4. Lastly, this came to mind today. Part of the mass is the purification right. This may seem silly or weird to protestants, but I’ve always found it incredibly beautiful and meaningful. Most priests after communion will spend several full minutes using special techniques to clean/purify the sacred vessels. So the chalice (cup)and the paten (metal plate) will be carefully wiped and cleaned off. Any fragments of host/bread will be carefully looked for and consumed, any leftover tiny pieces will be put in the chalice with water and consumed by the Priest. The whole point is to show the utmost respect for the physical presence of Jesus. And not let any of the fragments be lost. My thought today was: if God is present in all things, then this careful, loving, respectful, beautiful way of dealing with things in the world should apply to all things. It’s almost like a model to treat all things with dignity and respect and care. Of course those would mean people and yes, even animals first but also the world in general.

Peace!

Here are my musings from Catholic mass today. If anyone reads, thanks!

1. What do I now believe happens at the consecration? Many of us understand union theology to mean that the actual God of the universe has been one with us from the very beginning of our lives. And once we understand that, then we know we’ve already obtained the biggest blessing there can be, which is union with God. Then what about creation, the non human part? Are the things of the world not also full of his presence? “In Him all things hold together” says Paul. I tend to believe in panentheism, that His presence fills everything. So what happens on the altar to that wafer of bread? I used to believe that it literally changed from bread to no longer bread, but the very body of the Lord Jesus Christ. And now? I just don’t know exactly. I find the mass beautiful. But just as the Lord is in us all, everyone, and salvation could be thought of as realizing that has always been true, could it be that the mass could be teaching us that God is in all things, not just the consecrated host. But we start with 1 thing, as Rohr teaches. So the mass can maybe become a way (if you know what to look for, and put up with some non union ideas too, it’s very imperfect) to first see his very real presence in the host/consecrated bread, then in us present, then in all people and things! I certainly see so many references to God saving all, even if hard to always see them. 

2. I’m not sure if I’m being lazy or just resting in His love, but I really have this sense at mass of just being. Just receiving. Just resting. Before the realization of union, I felt myself struggling constantly with focus, and distractions, and doubts, and praying harder, and getting frustrated if I lost focus. Because I wasn’t in union and I needed to be. But now, there is this wonderful rest. 

3. Today’s first reading from Wisdom 12:13 is so full of the idea of Gods patient love for all:
   There is no god besides you who have the care of all,
   that you need show you have not unjustly condemned.
   For your might is the source of justice;
   your mastery over all things makes you lenient to all.
   For you show your might when the perfection of your power is disbelieved;
   and in those who know you, you rebuke temerity.
   But though you are master of might, you judge with clemency,
   and with much lenience you govern us;
   for power, whenever you will, attends you.
   And you taught your people, by these deeds,
   that those who are just must be kind;
   and you gave your children good ground for hope
   that you would permit repentance for their sins.

I’m a Catholic who’s come to believe God saves all. So I often have to process how I’m integrating my new faith with Catholicism. Some things are harder than others. But I always have thought after mass and I need a sounding board. :)

1. Religion is for people who are not that broken or can fake it well enough. The rest of us need the pure undiluted gospel of salvation for the entire cosmos including all people. 

2. Today the homily was about the Ascension. Although I love father and he’s a great priest, the homily was all about believe harder, do better, we’ll be judged, time is running out. He was being faithful to the training and understanding he has, like almost everyone else. But, see point 1.  

3. Honestly, so many Catholic prayers in the Mass-  prefaces, collects, Eucharistic prayers, etc are absolutely hopeful and tend towards universalism. It’s too bad that priests can’t always see it and aren’t  allowed to preach that way. It’s almost like the truth of universalism is there waiting to be discovered but folks can’t see it. Similar to scripture in some ways. 

4. The second reading was Ephesians 1:17-23

Brothers and sisters:
May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
resulting in knowledge of him.
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened,
that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call,
what are the riches of glory
in his inheritance among the holy ones,
and what is the surpassing greatness of his power
for us who believe,
in accord with the exercise of his great might,
which he worked in Christ,
raising him from the dead
and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion,
and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
And he put all things beneath his feet
and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body,
the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Me: isn’t this just FULL of the idea that “ belief” is coming to believe what’s already true - all have been seated with Christ but not all have this “revelation”? It’s beautiful!

5. When I first sat down at mass I looked up at the tabernacle. And I knew Christs real presence was there. Then I thought of the fact that all of us will be taking that real presence into our bodies soon. And it hit me - God’s going to save all and that’s part of the message of the mass. First we see Christ in one thing, in this bread. And come to truly believe that. Then he enters everyone there. Truly. So now all have Christ in them. And further, this is happening not just to those present but to all. It just seems like the message is right in our faces! Belief is realizing what’s already true!

I’m a Catholic who’s come to believe God saves all. So I often have to process how I’m integrating my new faith with Catholicism. Some things are harder than others. But I always have thought after mass and I need a sounding board. :)

1. Religion is for people who are not that broken or can fake it well enough. The rest of us need the pure undiluted gospel of salvation for the entire cosmos including all people. 

2. Today the homily was about the Ascension. Although I love father and he’s a great priest, the homily was all about believe harder, do better, we’ll be judged, time is running out. He was being faithful to the training and understanding he has, like almost everyone else. But, see point 1.  

3. Honestly, so many Catholic prayers in the Mass-  prefaces, collects, Eucharistic prayers, etc are absolutely hopeful and tend towards universalism. It’s too bad that priests can’t always see it and aren’t  allowed to preach that way. It’s almost like the truth of universalism is there waiting to be discovered but folks can’t see it. Similar to scripture in some ways. 

4. The second reading was Ephesians 1:17-23

Brothers and sisters:
May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
resulting in knowledge of him.
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened,
that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call,
what are the riches of glory
in his inheritance among the holy ones,
and what is the surpassing greatness of his power
for us who believe,
in accord with the exercise of his great might,
which he worked in Christ,
raising him from the dead
and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion,
and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
And he put all things beneath his feet
and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body,
the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Me: isn’t this just FULL of the idea that “ belief” is coming to believe what’s already true - all have been seated with Christ but not all have this “revelation”? It’s beautiful!

5. When I first sat down at mass I looked up at the tabernacle. And I knew Christs real presence was there. Then I thought of the fact that all of us will be taking that real presence into our bodies soon. And it hit me - God’s going to save all and that’s part of the message of the mass. First we see Christ in one thing, in this bread. And come to truly believe that. Then he enters everyone there. Truly. So now all have Christ in them. And further, this is happening not just to those present but to all. It just seems like the message is right in our faces! Belief is realizing what’s already true!

…that make the strongest case, scripturally, for universalism? I’ve seen a few lists, but I guess I’m looking for a list that is both comprehensive and focused on universalism. I welcome any suggestions/lists/websites. There are likely lists you know of that I don’t. Thanks!

then what about this. Think of how we often view scripture. Or even as a Catholic, the mass. “Aha”, I will say to myself, “I see this verse in a universal sense. Others don’t see it but I do. The Bible can be interpreted to see universalism!” And for me it can sometimes feel like I see something others don’t, and if it goes too far, maybe even more than the writers of the Bible saw!

But as I was thinking about Bible verses that seem to proclaim universalism, or as I ponder the sacraments (as a Catholic) in light of universalism, it sort of hit me:

If universal salvation was Gods intention from the beginning, then of course the Lord himself was teaching this, and I’d bet the apostles understood this clearly, and I’d suppose the scriptures were written to clearly speak this truth!

It’s starting to hit me that this energy and peace I feel, this joy that God will save all…could THIS be the real Good News!? Could this be what drove Paul to travel the world, and the Apostles to give all for.

In other words instead of universalism being this “new insight” we are sometimes imposing on the scriptural texts (or on the sacraments even), could it be it’s exactly what scriptures have always been trying to communicate? It just feels new because the layers of misunderstanding and bad theology (even by saints and otherwise great thinkers) have to be removed first. It was always there and always being proclaimed?!

I’ve been pondering things at mass again. And how the mass relates to the idea of universal salvation. What if the mass is trying to tell us that all will be saved? What if that’s right there in the meaning of the mass? One thing that Fr Richard Rohr has said a few times that really stuck with me is that in order to see God in everything, you first have to see God in one thing. Pick one thing and see God there first. That’s part of contemplation too. And so in the mass, we are literally taught the real presence. That Christ is truly, literally , physically ppresent, body, blood soul and divinity in The Eucharist. So here we are being taught, witnessing, communing with this presence of Christ in the bread. Week after week, year after year. This is my body, this is my blood. And a well catechized Catholic truly believes this. But so often, it sort of stops there. We consume the Eucharist, and generally nothing too special happens. There is maybe a slow growth and a slow evolution, God willing, and holiness for some of us. And for others of us, it doesn’t seem like much changes. And certainly there’s no real seeing Christ outside of the Eucharist, if I’m honest. 

But now let’s think about the mass. After the consecration, what do we do? We all eat the Eucharist. So the Christ that was present in the host is now inside of us. I don’t think we Catholics have pondered this enough. We eat the Eucharist! You are what you eat! It’s Christ getting inside of us. And could it be that what Christ wanted us to see that he’s already in us? And could Christ’s goal be with instituting the Eucharist that it was to show us that we are all in Christ already and he is in
us already? All of us (not just the ones at mass). So again, maybe the sacraments are these great reminders (anamnesis, re-member) of what’s already true!

Another thought : the creed says about the incarnation: “…and became man”. Latin “Et homo factus est” Original Greek: “enanthrōpēsanta” which is more like “enhumanized”. My point is he didn’t Devine “a man” rather “man”. In other words he connected himself to mankind as a whole. It’s a thing that just struck me as very universalist…maybe obvious but it struck my as interesting in light of "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.”

I’ve been pondering things at mass again. And how the mass may point to universal salvation. What if the mass is trying to tell us that all will be saved? What if it’s right there in the meaning of the mass? One thing that Fr Richard Rohr has said a few times that really stuck with me is: in order to see God in everything, you first have to see God in one thing. “Pick one thing and see God there first.” That’s an aspect of Christian contemplation too. And so, in the mass, we are literally taught the Real Presence. That Christ is truly, literally , physically present, body, blood soul and divinity in The Eucharist! So here we are being taught, witnessing, communing with this presence of Christ in the bread and wine (what used to be bread and wine). Week after week, year after year. “This is my body, this is my blood.”And a well catechized Catholic truly believes this. But so often, it sort of stops there. We consume the Eucharist, and generally nothing too special happens. There is maybe a slow growth and a slow evolution, God willing, and holiness for some of us. And for others of us, it doesn’t seem like much changes. And certainly there’s no real seeing Christ outside of the Eucharist, if I’m honest. 

But now let’s think about the mass. After the consecration, what do we do? We all eat the Eucharist. I don’t think we Catholics have pondered this enough. We eat the Eucharist! You are what you eat! It’s Christ getting inside of us. And could it be that what Christ wanted us to see is that he’s already in us, as in all of us? And could Christ’s goal in instituting the Eucharist be to show us that we are all in Christ already and he is in us already? All of us (not just the ones at mass). So again, maybe the sacraments are these great reminders (anamnesis, re-member) of what’s already true?!