u/jbvine

I’m a Catholic who’s come to believe God saves all. So I often have to process how I’m integrating my new faith with Catholicism. Some things are harder than others. But I always have thought after mass and I need a sounding board. :)

1. Religion is for people who are not that broken or can fake it well enough. The rest of us need the pure undiluted gospel of salvation for the entire cosmos including all people. 

2. Today the homily was about the Ascension. Although I love father and he’s a great priest, the homily was all about believe harder, do better, we’ll be judged, time is running out. He was being faithful to the training and understanding he has, like almost everyone else. But, see point 1.  

3. Honestly, so many Catholic prayers in the Mass-  prefaces, collects, Eucharistic prayers, etc are absolutely hopeful and tend towards universalism. It’s too bad that priests can’t always see it and aren’t  allowed to preach that way. It’s almost like the truth of universalism is there waiting to be discovered but folks can’t see it. Similar to scripture in some ways. 

4. The second reading was Ephesians 1:17-23

Brothers and sisters:
May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
resulting in knowledge of him.
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened,
that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call,
what are the riches of glory
in his inheritance among the holy ones,
and what is the surpassing greatness of his power
for us who believe,
in accord with the exercise of his great might,
which he worked in Christ,
raising him from the dead
and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion,
and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
And he put all things beneath his feet
and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body,
the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Me: isn’t this just FULL of the idea that “ belief” is coming to believe what’s already true - all have been seated with Christ but not all have this “revelation”? It’s beautiful!

5. When I first sat down at mass I looked up at the tabernacle. And I knew Christs real presence was there. Then I thought of the fact that all of us will be taking that real presence into our bodies soon. And it hit me - God’s going to save all and that’s part of the message of the mass. First we see Christ in one thing, in this bread. And come to truly believe that. Then he enters everyone there. Truly. So now all have Christ in them. And further, this is happening not just to those present but to all. It just seems like the message is right in our faces! Belief is realizing what’s already true!

I’m a Catholic who’s come to believe God saves all. So I often have to process how I’m integrating my new faith with Catholicism. Some things are harder than others. But I always have thought after mass and I need a sounding board. :)

1. Religion is for people who are not that broken or can fake it well enough. The rest of us need the pure undiluted gospel of salvation for the entire cosmos including all people. 

2. Today the homily was about the Ascension. Although I love father and he’s a great priest, the homily was all about believe harder, do better, we’ll be judged, time is running out. He was being faithful to the training and understanding he has, like almost everyone else. But, see point 1.  

3. Honestly, so many Catholic prayers in the Mass-  prefaces, collects, Eucharistic prayers, etc are absolutely hopeful and tend towards universalism. It’s too bad that priests can’t always see it and aren’t  allowed to preach that way. It’s almost like the truth of universalism is there waiting to be discovered but folks can’t see it. Similar to scripture in some ways. 

4. The second reading was Ephesians 1:17-23

Brothers and sisters:
May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
resulting in knowledge of him.
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened,
that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call,
what are the riches of glory
in his inheritance among the holy ones,
and what is the surpassing greatness of his power
for us who believe,
in accord with the exercise of his great might,
which he worked in Christ,
raising him from the dead
and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion,
and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
And he put all things beneath his feet
and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body,
the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Me: isn’t this just FULL of the idea that “ belief” is coming to believe what’s already true - all have been seated with Christ but not all have this “revelation”? It’s beautiful!

5. When I first sat down at mass I looked up at the tabernacle. And I knew Christs real presence was there. Then I thought of the fact that all of us will be taking that real presence into our bodies soon. And it hit me - God’s going to save all and that’s part of the message of the mass. First we see Christ in one thing, in this bread. And come to truly believe that. Then he enters everyone there. Truly. So now all have Christ in them. And further, this is happening not just to those present but to all. It just seems like the message is right in our faces! Belief is realizing what’s already true!

…that make the strongest case, scripturally, for universalism? I’ve seen a few lists, but I guess I’m looking for a list that is both comprehensive and focused on universalism. I welcome any suggestions/lists/websites. There are likely lists you know of that I don’t. Thanks!

then what about this. Think of how we often view scripture. Or even as a Catholic, the mass. “Aha”, I will say to myself, “I see this verse in a universal sense. Others don’t see it but I do. The Bible can be interpreted to see universalism!” And for me it can sometimes feel like I see something others don’t, and if it goes too far, maybe even more than the writers of the Bible saw!

But as I was thinking about Bible verses that seem to proclaim universalism, or as I ponder the sacraments (as a Catholic) in light of universalism, it sort of hit me:

If universal salvation was Gods intention from the beginning, then of course the Lord himself was teaching this, and I’d bet the apostles understood this clearly, and I’d suppose the scriptures were written to clearly speak this truth!

It’s starting to hit me that this energy and peace I feel, this joy that God will save all…could THIS be the real Good News!? Could this be what drove Paul to travel the world, and the Apostles to give all for.

In other words instead of universalism being this “new insight” we are sometimes imposing on the scriptural texts (or on the sacraments even), could it be it’s exactly what scriptures have always been trying to communicate? It just feels new because the layers of misunderstanding and bad theology (even by saints and otherwise great thinkers) have to be removed first. It was always there and always being proclaimed?!

I’ve been pondering things at mass again. And how the mass relates to the idea of universal salvation. What if the mass is trying to tell us that all will be saved? What if that’s right there in the meaning of the mass? One thing that Fr Richard Rohr has said a few times that really stuck with me is that in order to see God in everything, you first have to see God in one thing. Pick one thing and see God there first. That’s part of contemplation too. And so in the mass, we are literally taught the real presence. That Christ is truly, literally , physically ppresent, body, blood soul and divinity in The Eucharist. So here we are being taught, witnessing, communing with this presence of Christ in the bread. Week after week, year after year. This is my body, this is my blood. And a well catechized Catholic truly believes this. But so often, it sort of stops there. We consume the Eucharist, and generally nothing too special happens. There is maybe a slow growth and a slow evolution, God willing, and holiness for some of us. And for others of us, it doesn’t seem like much changes. And certainly there’s no real seeing Christ outside of the Eucharist, if I’m honest. 

But now let’s think about the mass. After the consecration, what do we do? We all eat the Eucharist. So the Christ that was present in the host is now inside of us. I don’t think we Catholics have pondered this enough. We eat the Eucharist! You are what you eat! It’s Christ getting inside of us. And could it be that what Christ wanted us to see that he’s already in us? And could Christ’s goal be with instituting the Eucharist that it was to show us that we are all in Christ already and he is in
us already? All of us (not just the ones at mass). So again, maybe the sacraments are these great reminders (anamnesis, re-member) of what’s already true!

Another thought : the creed says about the incarnation: “…and became man”. Latin “Et homo factus est” Original Greek: “enanthrōpēsanta” which is more like “enhumanized”. My point is he didn’t Devine “a man” rather “man”. In other words he connected himself to mankind as a whole. It’s a thing that just struck me as very universalist…maybe obvious but it struck my as interesting in light of "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.”

I’ve been pondering things at mass again. And how the mass may point to universal salvation. What if the mass is trying to tell us that all will be saved? What if it’s right there in the meaning of the mass? One thing that Fr Richard Rohr has said a few times that really stuck with me is: in order to see God in everything, you first have to see God in one thing. “Pick one thing and see God there first.” That’s an aspect of Christian contemplation too. And so, in the mass, we are literally taught the Real Presence. That Christ is truly, literally , physically present, body, blood soul and divinity in The Eucharist! So here we are being taught, witnessing, communing with this presence of Christ in the bread and wine (what used to be bread and wine). Week after week, year after year. “This is my body, this is my blood.”And a well catechized Catholic truly believes this. But so often, it sort of stops there. We consume the Eucharist, and generally nothing too special happens. There is maybe a slow growth and a slow evolution, God willing, and holiness for some of us. And for others of us, it doesn’t seem like much changes. And certainly there’s no real seeing Christ outside of the Eucharist, if I’m honest. 

But now let’s think about the mass. After the consecration, what do we do? We all eat the Eucharist. I don’t think we Catholics have pondered this enough. We eat the Eucharist! You are what you eat! It’s Christ getting inside of us. And could it be that what Christ wanted us to see is that he’s already in us, as in all of us? And could Christ’s goal in instituting the Eucharist be to show us that we are all in Christ already and he is in us already? All of us (not just the ones at mass). So again, maybe the sacraments are these great reminders (anamnesis, re-member) of what’s already true?!