On Myth and Ancient History

In 2026, I think it's worth standing back and taking stock of the fact that there's been a massive shift in our understanding of mythology over this past decade.

Just one decade ago it was considered a difficult position to suggest oral traditions could have preserved a myths for 7000+ years, let alone that these myths could contain factual historical information from this period. This was truly considered utterly implausible and silly just ten years ago.

The oldest known myths up until this point were Sumerian tablets dating back about 6000 years, and these stories don't show any immediate connection to known events.

Then, in 2016, a paper was published showing that Aboriginal myths that spoke of changing coastlines happened to reflect changing coastlines 7000 years ago.

This caught a few headlines and was sort of interesting, but as a bit of a one off case wasn't consequential. However, since then there has been a bit of a watershed in terms of the papers and scientific journal articles that have validated similar examples. In the majority of years since 2016 another myth has been shown to relate to a very ancient historical event and at an accelerating rate, here's a list:

2016 - Aboriginal myth of coastlines shown to relate to 7000 year old coastlines

2017 - Aboriginal myth shown to relate to a 7000 year old Queensland eruption

2019 - Aboriginal myth of volcano shown to relate to a 9000 year old eruption

2022 - Five Celtic myths observed to relate to rising seas between 5000-15000 years ago

2023 - Aboriginal myth observed to relate to a land connection to Tasmania 12000 years ago

2025 - Isle of Man stories shown to relate to the island connecting to Britain 8000 years ago

2025 - Submerged walls found off France where the myth of Ys said a city used walls to hold back the seas, the walls date to approximately 8000 years ago.

There are also many myths that appear to relate to history as interesting corelations but haven't yet been published and validated, these include:

A 1983 theory that the four rivers of the Garden of Eden relate to the Euphrates, Tigris and two now dried up rivers that connected to them which were last fully active 7000 years ago, Juris Zarins’s Persian Gulf hypothesis.

A Welsh myth of Branwen, Daughter of Llŷr, which describes a time when the Irish Sea was two rivers that could be crossed. This was the case 16,000 years ago.

The Greek myth of Pheaton driving the chariot of the sun and causing Africa to become hotter describes a similar event to the sudden end of the African Humid Period 8000 years ago.

A 2020 article on the Aboriginal myth of Budj Bim aligning to the events of a 37,000 year old eruption.

Finds from the Tas Tepeler which show continuity with later sculptures and motifs from Egypt and Mesopotamia, such as the statue of Min, Wajet and the Master of Animals motif. The Tas Tepeler are 12,000 years old, 9000 years before these later artifacts were created.

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Quietly over the last decade a wealth of mythic correlations to ancient history have been validated, and others which haven't yet been published but at least corelate with ancient events.

If taken seriously, any one of these published examples ought to have overturned a deeply rooted assumption that perseveres as assumptions so, that myths that talk of a very ancient past tend to be made-up accounts. We have many myths that now prove the contrary, instead, it may be more prudent to assume that myths tend to record history.

This is of course how change happens, our positions reflect our societal norms and no one remembers strongly holding a position that oral history cannot last more than 7000 years just 10 years ago, as such as position is now deemed obviously undeniable and people forget. But the default assumption that myths should be considered false stories somehow still perpetuates.

The myths of Atlantis, Zep Tepe, the Titans, the Aesir and many others have been dismissed as inconceivable of historical basis, partly for the reason that is was inconceivable that oral history dating back 7000+ years could have remained in been preserved, but there's no longer a clear implausibility to such oral accounts. They have also been dismissed for containing supernatural elements and gods, but all the above myths also contain supernatural elements, framing the record of real events, Likewise the ancient stories of Sumer were assumed to be stories because a century ago up until this decade it was not considered common for myth to preserve ancient history, but this has now been shown to be very plausible inviting a reconsideration. Lastly, the historian Sanchuniathon presents many of the Greek gods not as gods but as kings in his detailed Phoenician History. In 2024, Eleftheria Pappa published an article which made the case that Sanchuniathon's work may have been unjustly labelled as confabulation, showing that his recorded events that we have records for are accurate.

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Perhaps a growing interest online inquestioning the story of our ancient past and questioning how myths may relate to history is reflective of the fact thar our assumptions on how far back oral history can preserve information has quietly been shifting.

At some point this growing body of research of connections between myths and ancient history might demand a wider change in our default assumptions on myths and their purpose, and enable the possible overlaps between myth and history to become a more acceptable area of historical discussion, and even a serious and active area of academic research.

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u/lucasawilliams — 1 day ago
▲ 6 r/Euhemerism+1 crossposts

The Euhemerist version of Greek mythology

This is a fantastic marathon complete Greek mythological story video: https://youtu.be/RvTuBE0x55M?si=Cl3_toSS2-4SfK7U

This post proposes a the Euphemist take on this story; the true history behind the myth.

https://preview.redd.it/yzcndf87csjh1.png?width=1892&format=png&auto=webp&s=ea2c4f908a20d80d5fd98f6d9bbace182d35113e

https://preview.redd.it/eqd2bwp8psjh1.jpg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62715e6a1f0e7063922dc16a80e0c97dcbee63e3

Firstly, we have Gaia and Tartarus. Gaia is the Fertile Crescent, the basket for humanity. Tartarus being in the underworld is north for this area curved further from the path of the sun which might be considered up.

Sea faring began in 13,000 BC, old canoes became culturally important and were carved and reused in shelters. From this tradition came the Tas Tepeler in 10,000 BC, these were the people of Gaia and the hunter-gatherers in the north were the people of Tartarus.

From Gaia came Ouranos. Could this be the Natufians in Southern Levant? (Although Sanchuniathon appears to place King Ouranos after the Titans, I assume around 9000-8500 BC, perhaps a figure with the same name who fed into the Ouranos narrative).

From Ouranos came the Titans.

https://preview.redd.it/4buwd0wppsjh1.png?width=1899&format=png&auto=webp&s=37cb482c04ae1b458a62c60325235499aa12e141

Perhaps the spread of early settlement and technology such as geometric microliths at the end of the Ice Age and turn of the Holocene. In Plato we're told technology spread in the form of Hephaestus reaching Greece in 9600 BC and Egypt 8600 BC.

Oceanus was first, the Titan of spring water and encircling world ocean. Potentially the deity of the Tas Tepeler, sites of water control on hills; the sources of the Tigris and Euphrates.

As people spread from rivers along the Levantine coast, could this be the spread of Oceanus along the encircling world, founding 3000 river gods?

With the Titans come the Cyclopes and Hecatoncheires; craftsmen and armies.

https://preview.redd.it/qi5t0teessjh1.png?width=1899&format=png&auto=webp&s=a659e1042c81b55df1716a8da743258c7ed13e24

I also wonder whether the round eye of the Cyclopes was an early Bindi or Deq, a custom of forehead dots. This could have been the practice of the hunter-gatherer peoples. Both these representations are cast into Tartarus (north of the Fertile Crescent).

The rest of the Titans represent spread of technology and people groups across regions throughout the Mediterranean (orangey arrows).

https://preview.redd.it/4a42o88d2tjh1.png?width=6609&format=png&auto=webp&s=6e0a42e293267bb928b3f0cf44076de32bfad27c

Atlas and Atlantis. I write about Atlantis extensively in other posts and have a paper with a proof of the spring formation of the city here https://www.academia.edu/171244086/Remote_sensing_observations_of_possible_palaeogroundwater_discharge_structures_in_the_inner_Richat_Structure_Mauritania

Atlantis is relevant insomuch as it eachos themes of this Titan network. I assume the Atlanteans became the highest population group for a time and assumed authority.

The pairings and adjective names of the ten kings of Atlantis align well to Mediterranean regions.

https://preview.redd.it/6z57p3ev4tjh1.jpg?width=7001&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40efda67d4ddc427c4a8f14a314aed632717f7e7

To speedrun the rest.

https://preview.redd.it/k2qkzp235tjh1.png?width=1874&format=png&auto=webp&s=36b20d010d37b5d85d191965bd822cee0ea76bbe

Kronos represents time and farming, the creep of this new way of life on the hunter-gatherer kingdom of Ouranos. Kronos and Rhea are the people of Anatolia, the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers (ANFs) in Catalhoyuk and other settlements.

The slaying of Ouranos is the colonisation of Greece from the Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHGs) around 6200 BC, which happened to coincide with the 8.2ka Event causing widespead storms. Earthquakes occur near Norway at this time as well, and perhaps in other areas of Europe. This event is described with is trembling mountains and war between these two primeval figures in all Indo-European mythologies as well as being the war in the Atlantis text.

Kronos is the god of the Old Testament. His rule is powerful and vengeful. Unsurprisingly, his rule is overthrown by a figure not long after, Zeus Belus. Reclaiming Greece and freeing various peoples. Although the rule of this figure appears to have become represented with Typhon in the Greek account.

The ANF conquest of Europe coincides with the start of metallurgy and the forge. Prometheus may well have been related to this event. (Both Prometheus and Atlas are born from Iapetus which makes Iapetus difficult to place.)

Pandora receiving gifts from all the gods may represent the rise of a new mixed group pf people, with attributes of the ANF and WHG. Diversifying genetics can prevent certain genetic issues for a few generations, but the effect doesn't last hence her story of acquiring illnesses by opening her box.

The Flood is the Black Sea Deluge in 5600 BC, no other event caused water to rise up to the horizon. Noah was warned by the Titans, the Elohim, the Gods.

https://preview.redd.it/nyrfs4phatjh1.png?width=855&format=png&auto=webp&s=3b5ef129b7464c884b2c4a76a7ebad1fa3b6df0a

https://preview.redd.it/swz3virpatjh1.png?width=794&format=png&auto=webp&s=7720f4b63be2554409dc975f46ffadeb04247150

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u/lucasawilliams — 4 days ago
▲ 9 r/Euhemerism+1 crossposts

Assumed timeline for the events of Sanchuniathon

These events and peoples are listed in the extract of Sanchuniathon from Eusebius, Preparation of the Gospels https://topostext.org/work/230

They are listed in the chronology provided although I make an adjustment, the final event in the list is the slaying of Uranus, this is misplaced at the end as it appears to sit after the Titanomachy with the rebellion of Zeus Belus, I assume it's been incorrectly placed here following a too literal interpretation of Uranus's "death". I move this to anther, earlier reference to the overthrow of Uranus.

Alongside, I introduce an assumed dating column using key, known events as points from which the rest of the events can fill out from, these fixed points are the first canoes in 13,000 BC, the Tas Tepeler sites in 10,000 BC and the Overthrow of Uranus with the 8.2ka Event in 6,200 BC.

u/lucasawilliams — 12 days ago

Pillar 43 - Assessing the pillar's potential as a map of asterisms and as a dating timestamp, plus a game: can you stop the star alignment before each is revealed?

Firstly there doesn't appear to be any subreddit that really fits my niche. This subreddit mainly a community for alien/mysticism ideas and the occasional what if modern alternative history scenario. The Graham Hancock subreddit is obviously primarily concerned with the views and interests of Graham Hancock. There isn't really a subreddit for Euhemerist, the belief that myth as history, so I've set one up r/Euhemerism, join if this is an interest and if so please contribute if anything questions or posts that relate to this topic.

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The idea of Pillar 43 representing constellations, or asterisms, has been floating around for a while.

Dr Martin Sweatman released a paper claiming to have figured out how the carving relate the constellations via a statistical method. Unfortunately this turned out to be flawed, using only alignments to modern day constellations pointed out very well by the World of Antiquity guy.

This flawed paper somewhat tainted the subject, nonetheless there appears to be a very strong celestial alignment to the carvings pillar 43 when observed to Cygnus and the patterns that can be naturally created in the surrounding stars. If the circle is also assumed to be the celestial north point, then incredibly this corresponds to a very early date of 14,700 BC; the point at which the ice end ended suddenly and temperatures rose very quickly by 10 degrees.

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Origin of the idea:

An alignment to the vulture with Cygnus constellation was first made by an Armenian researcher called Vachagan Vahradyan.

Andrew Collins and Rodney Hale then suggested the circle could represent the north celestial pole.

Ethical Sceptic put the two ideas together and constructed a star asterism alignment map https://x.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/2081830406240825412?s=20 and concluded that the date the north celestial pole was above the vulture wing was 14,800 BC.

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I personally agree with this, I don't agree with Ethical Sceptic's further points regarding the pillar and I don't think that the pillar date indicates the creation of the pillar instead I consider the 9800 BC construction dating correct and see the timestamp of 14,700/14,800 BC. as representative of a date 5,000 years earlier that the pillar's construction. This date corresponds to the sudden end of the iceage.

I disagree with Ethical Sceptic's precise star asterisms and instead these are my own assumptions.

Each carved figure is shown beside a simple star view taken from Stellarium first and then an assumed potential asterism and then full map. See if you can figure out each assumed asterism before the reveal.

I don't know for certain whether this is correct but many of the features connect very naturally.

u/lucasawilliams — 18 days ago

Pillar 43 - Assessing the pillar's potential as a map of asterisms and as a dating timestamp, plus a game: can you stop the star alignment before each is revealed?

The idea of Pillar 43 representing constellations, or asterisms, has been floating around for a while.

Dr Martin Sweatman released a paper claiming to have figured out how the carving relate the constellations via a statistical method. Unfortunately this turned out to be flawed, using only alignments to modern day constellations pointed out very well by the World of Antiquity guy.

This flawed paper somewhat tainted the subject, nonetheless there appears to be a very strong celestial alignment to the carvings pillar 43 when observed to Cygnus and the patterns that can be naturally created in the surrounding stars. If the circle is also assumed to be the celestial north point, then incredibly this corresponds to a very early date of 14,700 BC; the point at which the ice end ended suddenly and temperatures rose very quickly by 10 degrees.

-

Origin of the idea:

An alignment to the vulture with Cygnus constellation was first made by an Armenian researcher called Vachagan Vahradyan.

Andrew Collins and Rodney Hale then suggested the circle could represent the north celestial pole.

Ethical Sceptic put the two ideas together and constructed a star asterism alignment map https://x.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/2081830406240825412?s=20 and concluded that the date the north celestial pole was above the vulture wing was 14,800 BC.

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I personally agree with this, I don't agree with Ethical Sceptic's further points regarding the pillar and I don't think that the pillar date indicates the creation of the pillar instead I consider the 9800 BC construction dating correct and see the timestamp of 14,700/14,800 BC. as representative of a date 5,000 years earlier that the pillar's construction. This date corresponds to the sudden end of the iceage.

I disagree with Ethical Sceptic's precise star asterisms and instead these are my own assumptions.

Each carved figure is shown beside a simple star view taken from Stellarium first and then an assumed potential asterism and then full map. See if you can figure out each assumed asterism before the reveal.

I don't know for certain whether this is correct but many of the features connect very naturally.

u/lucasawilliams — 18 days ago

Pillar 43 - Assessing the pillar's potential as a map of asterisms and as a dating timestamp, plus a game: can you stop the star alignment before each is revealed?

The idea of Pillar 43 representing constellations or asterisms of the sky has been floating around for a while.

Dr Martin Sweatman released a paper claiming to have figured out how via a statistical method. Unfortunately this turned out to be flawed, relying on only alignment to modern day constellations pointed out very well by the World of Antiquity guy.

This flawed paper has somewhat tainted the subject, nonetheless there appears to be a very strong celestial alignment to the pillar when observed to Cygnus and patterns that can be naturally created in the surrounding stars. If the circle is also assumed to be the celestial north point, then incredibly this corresponds to a very early date of 14,700 BC; the point at which the ice end ended suddenly and temperatures rose very quickly by 10 degrees.

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To credit the idea properly:

An alignment to the vulture with Cygnus constellation was first made by an Armenian researcher called Vachagan Vahradyan.

Andrew Collins and Rodney Hale then suggested the circle could represent the north celestial pole.

Ethical Sceptic put the two ideas together and constructed a star asterism alignment map https://x.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/2081830406240825412?s=20 and concluded that the date the north celestial pole was above the vulture wing was 14,800 BC.

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I personally agree with this, I don't agree with Ethical Sceptic's further points regarding the pillar and I don't think that the pillar date indicates the creation of the pillar but I believe it's 9800 BC construction dating is correct and that the timestamp represents a date 5,000 years earlier that it's construction, 14,700/14,800 BC.

I disagree with Ethical Sceptic's precise star asterisms and instead these are my own assumptions.

Each carved figure is shown beside a simple star view taken from Stellarium first and then an assumed potential asterism and then full map. See if you can figure out each assumed asterism before the reveal.

I don't know for certain whether this is correct but many of the features connect very naturally.

u/lucasawilliams — 19 days ago

Technological change of the Western Hunter Gatherers and interactions

I didn't know this but there's evidence that the people living in Greece were sea-faring from 13,000 BC. We know this because they start collecting and bringing back a type of obsidian, only found on the island of Milos, to make obsidian axes. Sea levels were about 80m lower at this time but Milos was still separated from the mainland by a chain of five islands each with 10km of water between them.

Later in 9700 BC we also see a major technological shift, as people emerged from the genetic bottleneck of the ice age, this date aligning with the 9600 BC date we receive from Plato for when the people of Greece first 'received the seed from Earth and Hephaestus'.

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In 130,000 BC and 200,000 BC early non-Homo-Sapien humans had gotten to Naxos and Crete, which is an equally impressive seafaring feat as Milos but it seems they weren't travelling frequently enough to establish permanent settlement and the seafaring technology was later lost.

Europe became occupied by Homo Sapiens from 45,000 BC. This European Sapien population reduced to 20,000 people at a point during the last ice age. After this genetic bottleneck event the remaining population formed a genetic group known as the Western Hunter Gatherers (WHG).

The ice age ended in 12,700 BC and temperature rose 10 degrees in what is called the Bølling-Allerød interstadial, this is around the time we find the evidence of early sea faring to Milos.

A bit later, in 12,000 BC or 11,000 BC, people got to the island of Cyprus.

In 10,800 BC it suddenly got cold again in the Younger Dryas, which continued for 1,300 years. In 9700 BC temperatures in Europe quickly rose by about 3-4 degrees again and slowly this is the beginning of a to shift towards a humid period in Europe and Africa.

At this 9700 BC there is the largest detectable shift in technology with different stone tools and changing settlement patterns. This date aligns with the date of the seeding of Earth and Hephaestus Plato speaks of.

Plato also says that Egypt received the seed of Earth and Hephaestus 1000 years after the Greeks, so 8600 BC. This is the exact time when a large technological shift occurs in Egypt and it is assumed an incoming population colonises the region although we don't known who genetically as remains haven't been sequenced. I made a previous post about this 8600 BC point in Egypt here https://www.reddit.com/r/atlantis/s/vYivSpNxOk

And here's the key image with information:

https://preview.redd.it/x53vbj9uvcfh1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=a89c9a947155028ae6371ad373c10f66ee6e50ce

It's now thought that this 8600 BC incoming group arrived from the east moving west into Africa as humidity increased.

Both Greece and Egypt show a shift towards smaller bladelets and geometric microliths as well as more stone wood composite tools, in what are collectively called Mesolithic technologies.

This particular style of geometric microlith had actually been present in the Levant 10,000 years earlier in Kebaran/Natufian sites, first around 18,000-11,700 BC, before similar techniques show up in Greece, around 9700 BC, and in Egypt, in 8600 BC.

Just before this lithic technique dissemination the Tas Tepeler sites begin in Turkey in 10,000 BC.

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Returning to the WHGs in Greece. After 9700 BC they become more reliant on fishing and after 8000 BC even start regularly harpooning tuna (at least the evidence we have from Franchthi Cave shows this).

I mention this because in the different Sumerian story of the Enūma Eliš there are the characters Tiamat and Apsu. They lead to the arrival of a much more industrial group called the Anunnaki.

Tiamat is called "saltwater" and Apsu is called "freshwater". If the WHGs were reliant on a sea hunting lifestyle, eating tuna and sailing around the Greek islands it's reasonable to assume these people could represent Tiamat.

Likewise, people in Egypt rely entirely on the massive freshwater Nile and so it's reasonable to assume these people could be Apsu.

The Anunnaki are then these in new industrious Tas Tepeler people. In Sumerian myth they are born from Anu and Urash who are similar to founding gods Uranus and Gaia in Greek mythology.

The Tas Tepeler people are influenced by both Leventine Natufian and Mesopotamian groups, so it's possible that the Natufians represent Uranus/Anu and possibly the Mesopotamian Groups Gaia.

The Natufians are fairly genetically similar to the WHGs with the two groups having diverged around 25,000 BC.

I think the gods Plato calls Earth, or then Athena, and Hephaestus are also Gaia and Uranus.

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All in all, initially there are four groups: Gaia (Near East), Uranus (Natufians), Tiamat (Greek WHG), Apsu (Proto-Egyptians). They give rise the Titan Oceanus the first Titan (or Annunaki), the people that Plato mistakenly calls the "race of Poseidon". They move into Egypt colonising Apsu and as Enki or founding Egyptian god Nun. Other's then continue west along the newly humid North Africa to the Chotts.

I didn't bring up canoes in this post, but I think the dugout canoe was the mode of vessel people were using, this being origin of the Tas Tepeler T-Pillars, the reason the WHGs could start hunting tuna and essential for the expansion of people whilst remaining a connected network. The canoe found, and the first boat of any type, is the Pesse Canoe found in the Netherlands in 8500 BC. Whether this developed independently or what evidence of exploratory migration all the way into Europe is unknown. But people didn't make it across the sea to Ireland until 500 years later in 8000 BC, so the use of boat in this region of Europe must have only just been starting.

https://preview.redd.it/uei9y16moefh1.jpg?width=8780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=60a5d8e9396238dff38d8569b4cb755969c46fde

https://preview.redd.it/du4omggyiefh1.jpg?width=8780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5878473d53d50b8f4c16931cfd3ef51efc8f729

https://preview.redd.it/r4pbkx5htefh1.jpg?width=8780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8fd804a6e6b4b34c45bd30d2e17e9d34fa7b733c

https://preview.redd.it/j53p0m4itefh1.jpg?width=8780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe5be0de0a47b265357d5eb8486d5fd11cc907f7

https://preview.redd.it/775nmjfltefh1.jpg?width=8780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b28a86ba62683decd64347766bc51c56a6fe9a06

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u/lucasawilliams — 27 days ago

Jack and the Beanstalk - Full Breakdown

Jack and the Beanstalk is a well known story or myth, it was first published in 1734 but was likely a known story before.

The name Jack is a modern. The original names and details of the story are lost. However, the key elements survive: A cow, a magic bean, a giant with lots of gold, a hen that lays golden eggs, and a harp.

Cows were introduced to Southern Europe by about 6000 BC. Cows reached Northern Europe in 4000 BC.

The bean was likely Fava Bean, one of the earliest cultivated crops. Fava Bean is native to North Africa and Asia and was introduced to Southern Europe in 5500 BC but took as long as until 1000/500 BC to be introduced to Northern Europe.

Gold started to be mined a little bit later in 4500 BC in the Varna Culture region in Southern Europe. Gold reached Northern Europe in 2000 BC.

Hens were introduced to this same Eastern Europe region much later again, around 3000 BC. Hen's only reached Northern Europe in 500 BC.

Last of all harps were introduced to Europe from Egypt around 2500 BC and didn't reach Northern Europe until 500 AD, but, the similar instrument the Lyre reached Northern Europe in 500 BC.

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Therefore, the story wouldn't have made much sense in southern Europe as the cultivation of Fava beans long predated hens, harps or gold, but it would makes sense in Northern Europe at around 500 BC, as 500 BC is the time that Fava beans, hens and lyres were being introduced to this region.

Fava Bean

Lyre

But this is all basically conventional history, boring.

The structure of 'a boy steals treasure from a giant/ogre' is assumed to be of Proto-Indo-European origin, therefore thought to date to at least 4500 BC/2500 BC. Two versions of the story were published, one where Jack enters the mythical realm of the giant without the hen and harp and one with these, it could be that different theme were being combined.

The first version published without the hen and harp instead features a beanstalk that grows 40 miles high, Jack is given a magic ring and granted 5 wishes, after this he defeats the giant to become king of all.

It's my opinion that the Bottle Gourd featured much more prominently in ancient history than people realise. It's a plant that, although native to Africa, turns up in America and Middle East in 7000 BC, and in Chine in 5000 BC with varieties that appear to have genetically split from Africa in 8500 BC. When dried the gourd can be used as vessels to carry water making it incredibly useful for early societies.

The gourd features as a crop in the biblical story of Jonas and the Whale, a story with shared origin as the Sumerian Apkallu. In Plato's account of Atlantis he discusses fruits that can be drunk. The unripe Bottle Gourd provides juicy flesh and water.

The Bottle Gourd is much more akin to a magical endlessly growing vine than the Fava bean which grows straight up to 1.8m. The Bottle Gourd coils around it's environment and can be +10m long.

I think the first story related to the introduction of this new crop from tropical Africa to Proto-Indo-Europeans in North Africa and Mesopotamia in 8500 BC.

Bottle Gourd

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u/lucasawilliams — 27 days ago

Corrected Journey of Odysseus

There are many proposed routes of the Odyssey that dart all over the Mediterranean without clear reason so I've created this corrected map with textual descriptions and journey times.

u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

Uranus Aryanus

This is not particularly Atlantean related. However, we are told that by Diodorus that the first king of Atlantis was Uranus.

In Greek mythology Uranus is the founding god of the Titians along with Gaia.

In Plato’s account he describes Hephaestus and Earth as seeding Greece and Egypt, then this becoming Hephaestus and Athena. These gods are a mistranslation of Uranus and Gaia.

Uranus represents the Natufian people, innovators in arrowhead technology and hut construction, and possibly the inventors of the dugout canoe, we can’t know. The people of Gaia were the more Eastern influenced, Mesopotamian people who established the Tas Tepeler by adopting Natufian (Uranian) methods and traditions. Essentially the two came together in union.

Iran gets its name from Aryan, a word of unknown origin which came to mean “free” or “noble”. In Hindu there is a word with a shared root ‘ārya’.

Kronos followed Uranus and by all accounts was a tyrannical leader, enslaving a large number of people, it can’t be known exactly how but perhaps this could have involved forced agriculture adoption and the paying of a land tax like later feudalism. In the biblical accounts Adam and Eve are made to till the land by the arriving Elohim.

Many peoples from Mesopotamia moved down into Iran at this time ~7000 BC, the expulsion from Eden, and others on to India. It’s easy to imagine how Uranus may have been pronounced Aryanus and how these people could have named themselves Aryans. It then makes sense for the word to then mean “free” as they are free from Kronos.

Plato describes the race of Poseidon Oceanus as a most noble race, Oceanus is the first Titan of Uranus and therefore again it’s easy to see why Aryan would be also mean “noble”.

The current explanation for the word Aryan is exactly the same as the same as the explanation for the distribute of Indo-European mythology, that it all came from and was distributed by the Yamnaya steppe herders, being the most recent group to migrate to these regions, but the mythology origin has been somewhat proven to predate the Yamnaya now and there’s no evidence to justify a Yamnaya origin, they left no writing.

I propose instead that the word Aryan / Iranian came from the Natufian Uranians as they spread easterly. These Uranians being the race that leads to Oceanus and then Atlantis.

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u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

The real route of the Odyssey and the different peoples encountered

There have been plenty of videos and posts on the assumed locations of Odysseus' Odyssey but they are all wrong on a number of locations.

The real destinations and characters can be worked out, as I will explain how in this post. This is the actual route Odysseus takes.

These are some of the current (incorrect) maps and videos out there:

https://preview.redd.it/i367d56yy5dh1.png?width=1689&format=png&auto=webp&s=023a86be3164046473c99d66ed999e9d1115a4e1

https://preview.redd.it/fp0m9rh9z5dh1.png?width=504&format=png&auto=webp&s=abdda70ca56e0018b0ee2fb0ab117c195e88fa6c

https://preview.redd.it/a4hooajwz5dh1.png?width=751&format=png&auto=webp&s=f56717d5674eaffaafb3febac6590a19a158a340

-

Firstly, to address the claim that these destinations and characters could all be fictional. Given how much of the story focuses on the affairs of Odysseus' family and how prominent Odysseus is in the prior Illiad we can consider it likely that there had been a king of Ithica called Odysseus who had a role in the war and journeyed home. It is always more expedient to use a real, existing story than to make one up.

We can't know whether Odysseus, as a single person, travelled to each of these places. However, it would have certainly been the case that after victory at Troy the Greeks boats would have returned home in drips and drabs. Boat technology was not fantastic even by the late Bronze Age and it was common for ships to be sent off course or wrecked by storms.

We're told by Homer that a massive storm hit the Greek fleet blowing them off course and separating them. It's possible that the story of the Odyssey is a compendium of the stories of the returning travellers, maybe even combined with of stories that had been circulating prior to the war, in the same way that Jason and the Argonauts and The Labours of Hercules encode information of peoples and places in far away lands onto stories of renowned figures. It could also be an account of a single journal by a single sailor as the journey he takes does make sense.

The idea that any of the locations or characters were fabricated is not an option. Elements of an account that were not known traditions would have been rejected by the people of the time who would would be hearing these accounts from multiple ancestors before the finished piece was formed. The descriptions of characters and places also happen to fit precisely with actual characters and places as we will see. Myth has always been a means of encoding history.

-

This is the full list of destinations in order:

  1. Troy
  2. Ismarus (Land of the Cicones)
  3. Land of the Lotus-Eaters
  4. Island of the Cyclopes (Land of Polyphemus)
  5. Aeolia (Island of Aeolus)
  6. Telepylus (Land of the Laestrygonians)
  7. Aeaea (Island of Circe)
  8. The Underworld (Hades)
  9. Aeaea (Return)
  10. Island of the Sirens
  11. Scylla and Charybdis
  12. Thrinacia (Island of the Sun)
  13. Ogygia (Island of Calypso)
  14. Scheria (Land of the Phaeacians)
  15. Ithaca

-

Troy

Everyone agrees on this. It's the the Hittite city of Wilusa on the west coast of Anatolia called "Iliad" by the Greeks.

Ismarus

>"The wind carried and drove me from Ilium to the Ciconians,

>§ 9.40  at Ismarus. There I sacked the city and destroyed them.
We took their wives and many possessions from the city,
and divided up so none would go cheated of a fair share by me.
Then indeed I ordered that with nimble feet we flee,
but, greatly foolish, they did not obey.

>§ 9.45  Then much wine was drunk, and by the shore they slaughtered
many sheep and lumbering curved-horn cattle.
Meanwhile, the Ciconians had gone and cried out to Ciconians
who were were more numerous and stronger,
their neighbors living inland, skilled in fighting men

>§ 9.50  from horses, and where needed, on foot.
They came then, in the morning, as many as leaves and flowers
come in season. Then Zeus's evil destiny was with us,
grimly doomed, so that we would suffer many sorrows.
Setting up for battle, they fought beside the swift ships,

>§ 9.55  and threw bronze spears at each other.
While it was morning and sacred day was growing,
we stayed and fought them off though there were more of them.
But when the sun had passed beyond the time to unyoke oxen,
right then Ciconians turned and tamed Achaeans,

>§ 9.60  and six well-greaved comrades from each ship
were killed, but the rest of us escaped death and doom.
“We sailed on from there with grief in our hearts
at the loss of our dear comrades, glad to have escaped death.
But my double-curved ships sailed no further

>§ 9.65  until someone called out three times to each of our wretched comrades
who died on the plain, cut down by the Ciconians."

Again everyone agrees, nothing contentious on this one. There a place named Ismaros, this was Thracian territory. The Greek being in war-mode sacked another city and took some woman for the journey home. Fine. The journey so far was going smoothly.

https://preview.redd.it/srp2m8k5g6dh1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=400480bd87c2de2ff9eb9fbdf4be12e0b478e9ce

Land of the Lotus Eaters

>"Nine days I was carried by baneful winds
over the fishy sea, but on the tenth we landed
in the land of the Lotus Eaters, who eat a flowery food.

>§ 9.85  We went ashore there and drew water,
and my comrades soon took dinner beside our swift ships.
Then after they partook of food and drink,
I then sent comrades to go and find out
who the men were who ate bread upon the earth.

>§ 9.90  I chose two men, and sent a third with them as a herald,
who went and soon mingled with the Lotus Eater men,
and the Lotus Eaters did not intend destruction
for our comrades, but gave them lotus to partake of.
Whoever of them ate the honey-sweet fruit of the lotus

>§ 9.95  no longer wished to report or come back,
but wanted to stay there among the Lotus Eater men
to feed on lotus and forget return home.
I brought them by force, weeping, to the ships, then,
dragged them in the hollow ships and tied them under the benches.

>§ 9.100  Then I ordered the rest of my trusty comrades
to board the fast ships in a hurry,
lest by chance anyone eat lotus and forget return home,
then they went aboard at once and sat down at the oarlocks,
and, seated in rows, beat the gray sea with their oars."

This is where everyone starts to go wrong. The Greeks are hit by specifically a north wind and blown of course. People seem to claim this next location was in Tunisia to the west but they were blown south, to Egypt.

This period coincides approximately with the reign of Pharaoh Tutankhamun. Tutankhamun was buried with a ton of Blue Lotus flowers.

This is because at this time the Egyptians he gotten very into eating the hallucinogenic Blue Lotus flowers and soaking them wine as alcohol could draw out even more hallucinogens.

There's a great little documentary on this here https://youtu.be/TrPTx6qWql8?si=Vx2xHD_p8udZEduV

Egypt had been in moderate decline since Akhenaten a last decades earlier and they'd long since stopped building pyramids or forgotten what they were even for. From the depictions it seems like many Egyptians were mostly preoccupied with having drugged-up sex parties high on this hallucinogen.

You could say, 'but the Greeks would have known about the Egyptians because they traded with them' but all peoples of the Mediterranean were trading so this can be said of anywhere. Furthermore, they may have been unaware of this Egyptian custom and the lost sailors may have been unaware they were in Egypt.

This is Egypt and surrounding coast as a reminder:

https://preview.redd.it/632nycqbt6dh1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=7a742f2a229e2f2181761cbac33cc7165e698af6

Island of the Cyclopes (Land of Polyphemus)

>§ 9.105  “We sailed on from there with grief in our hearts.
We reached the land of the haughty, lawless Cyclopes,
who, trusting in the gods immortal,
neither plow nor plant trees with their hands,
but everything grows unplowed and unsown,

>§ 9.110  wheat and barley, and vines that bear clusters of grapes
for wine, and Zeus's rain makes them grow for them.
They have neither advisory councils nor established laws,
but they live on the peaks of high mountains,
in hollow caves, and each one is the judge

>§ 9.115  of his wives and children, but they don't heed one another.
“A rough island stretches outside the harbor,
neither near nor far from the Cyclopes' land,
a wooded one, on which there are countless wild goats,
for the coming and going of men does not drive them away,

>§ 9.120  nor do hunters enter it, who in forests
suffer sorrows as they haunt mountain peaks.
So, filled with neither flocks nor fields,
all its days unplowed and unsown instead,
the island is without men but feeds bleating goats.

>§ 9.125  For the Cyclopes have no vermilion-cheeked ships,
nor are men among them shipwrights, who would have built
well-benched ships that could fulfill each one's needs
and take them to cities of mankind, much as men
often cross the sea with ships to each other,

>§ 9.130  and who would have made the island well-settled for them.
For the island isn't bad at all and would bear all things in season.
For on it, by the gray sea's banks, there are meadows,
watered, soft ones. Vines would be very hardy there.
On it there's smooth land for plowing. They would always reap

>§ 9.135  a deep crop in season, since beneath the surface it is very fertile.
The harbor in it is safe anchorage, so there's no need for moorings,
neither to cast anchors nor secure stern cables,
instead, those who bring a ship to shore can await the time
when sailors' hearts urge them and breezes favorably blow.

>§ 9.140  Then, at the harbor's head, splendid water flows,
a spring from under a cave, around which poplars grow.
We sailed down there, and some god guided us
through the murky night, and there was no light to see,
for a deep mist was around the ships, and the moon

>§ 9.145  didn't shine from heaven, but was shrouded in clouds.
No one saw the island with his eyes then,
nor did we see the great waves rolling toward dry land,
before we brought our well-benched ships to land.
When the ships landed, we lowered all the sails

>§ 9.150  and went ashore ourselves at the edge of sea's surf.
We fell asleep there and awaited divine Dawn.
“When early-born rose-fingered Dawn appeared,
we marveled at the island as we roamed thoughout it.
Nymphs, aegis-bearer Zeus's daughters,

>§ 9.155  roused mountain goats so my comrades could have dinner.

[Barbequing goats]

>§ 9.195  Then I chose twelve of the best of my comrades
and went.

[Enters Cyclops' cave]

>“We arrived quickly at the cave, but didn't find him
inside, since he was herding his fat sheep through pasture.
We went into the cave and gazed at every single thing.

...

>""But then he lifted high and put in place a big door rock,
a mighty one. Twenty-two good four-wheeled wagons
would not have heaved it from the ground."

>then he lit a fire, caught sight of us, and asked:
'Who are you, strangers? From where did you sail the watery ways?
On some business, or did you roam at random,
even as pirates over the sea, who roam,

>and risk their lives, and bring evil to foreigners?'"

[they lie]

Cyclops:

>"'Stranger, you're a fool, or come from far away,
to bid me to either avoid or fear the gods,

>§ 9.275  for Cyclopes don't heed aegis-bearer Zeus
or the blessed gods, since, indeed, we are far better.
I wouldn't avoid Zeus' hatred, and spare
either you or your comrades, unless my heart bid me.'"

...

>"he sprang up and threw his hands upon my comrades,
grabbed two at once and dashed them, like puppies,

>§ 9.290  to the ground. Brain flowed out on the ground and wet the earth.
He cut through them, limb from limb, and prepared dinner.
He ate, like a mountain-bred lion, and left nothing,
entrails, flesh, and marrowy bones."

>[they get him drunk, stab his eye with a mast blinding him then escape by hiding under sheep]

Here again people get this one completely wrong. Firstly it reads as if Odysseus hasn't travelled far from the Lotus Eaters which we now know are in Egypt. Most people place the Cyclops in Sicily, because this was the unwitting assumption made by a couple of Greek writers centuries later but there is no basis for Sicily at all. Placing the Cyclopes in Sicily is why people place the Lotus Eaters in nearby Tunisia.

The true location of the Cyclopes makes sense as the outcrop of Libya (or possibly the Levant if the crew set out East), this can be shown due to a reference to the Cyclopes earlier in the book:

>"So, while long-suffering divine Odysseus slept there
worn out by sleep and exhaustion, Athena
came to the district and city of Phaeacian men,
who once upon a time dwelt in broad-lawned Hypereia,
close by the Cyclopes"

We now know that the homeland of the Phaeacians was the Levant, described here as "broad-lawned Hypereia" and he directly says this is close by the Cyclopes. So the Cyclopes must be near the Levant.

The cyclops they encounter is called Polyphemus. A near-Levant / North African location can be further hinted at via Polyphemus' mother who we've told is Thoosa in this earlier passage:

>"godlike Polyphemus, whose strength is greatest
of all Cyclops. The nymph Thoosa bore him.
Daughter of Phorkys, ruler of the barren sea"

Thoosa is a sea nymph and daughter of Phorcys. Phorcys is depicted as a half fish (or crab) figure and is associated with Ethiopia which has a history of occupation from peoples coming down from North Africa / the Levant.

This outcrop in Libya is also sufficiently mountainous, as is the Levant and this mountainous coastline is specifically described in Homer's description.

https://preview.redd.it/i7tpf1kkc8dh1.png?width=1143&format=png&auto=webp&s=40a88af88dd6fd98e70003e0971d40d88abfcc64

Who were the Cyclopes?

Polyphemus which means "many-voiced", this term best makes sense as a collection of people speaking different languages. This adjective was also said of the later Hydra in West Anatolia which had a hundred heads and many different voices and we known that Anatolia had been full of different speaking peoples, the same for the Levant.

The word Cyclops itself means "round-eyed". They, of course, are said to have one round eye.

North African Amazigh people people have a tradition of face tattooing, called deq, used to ward off the evil eye. Many of these deq tattoos feature eye-like marks on the forehead, although some are more abstract. The language of the Amazigh people originates from the Levant spitting off from before at least 8000 BC. This implies that the Amazigh people likely originated in the Levant and a shared proto people may have been occupying this area for a long time after the initial split. 

https://preview.redd.it/se5qhkoc58dh1.png?width=605&format=png&auto=webp&s=20c2a73e2d82445aa9c7c2f5fab1bc246f16ab62

To the east of the Mediterranean to this day many groups where a dot on their forehead, this is called a bindi. This is a pre-5000 BC tradition mainly associated with Northern India.

There is widespread marking on the forehead practiced by in various people groups between India and the Levant or the use of Jewry to mark a dot or eye here. Such as with the Kurds, Afgans and Iranian tribal groups.

https://preview.redd.it/9r74qh0247dh1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=179d95c22a0fa755c6f5535e9d413e5e616176b0

Why was the cyclops giant?

In the late bronze age Greek men were living primarily off low nutrient grain dominated diet and therefore the average height of a man was only 5'4". We're told that the Cyclopes are a lawless people who don't practice agriculture:

"[they] neither plow nor plant trees with their hands,
but everything grows unplowed and unsown"

Therefore they may have been on more nutrient rich hunter-gatherer diets and could have grown about 6' appearing giant to the smaller Greeks.

In summary

The Cyclopes were tribes of semi-hunter-gatherer peoples on the North African coast of Libya who partook in a custom of marking there foreheads with a round dot.

We don't need further information than this, but as a side note we are also told from other sources that the Cyclopes sided with Zeus during the Titanomachy and forged his weapons, although these came from Tartarus. The region of Tartary is into Eastern Europe and this is also the region whether cyclopes crop up in a different Greek myth that of the Arimaspians. It's possible tribes sharing this forehead-dot tradition were spread out across both regions at this time.

Furthermore, this is a 2000 BC sculpture found in the Levant with a clear large round dot on it's head.

https://preview.redd.it/g74aoc7q87dh1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=11cd254a37386c8afd4aecc4833c0226d2037143

Why was is called an island?

Strangely this appears to be the geographic detail that people pay most attention to, prioritising it about everything else and looking around for different islands they can call home of the cyclopes. However, to lost sailors any land could appear to be an island, therefore I don't attribute really any weight to this detail. Additionally, the term island was used very loosely in ancient times to essentially mean any land in which you primarily travel to by sea and the outcrop of Libya is surrounded by desert on all sides.

Aeolia (Island of Aeolus)

>“We reached the island of Aeolia. There lived
Aeolus Hippotades, dear to gods immortal,
on a floating island, a wall of unbreakable bronze
all around it, and the smooth rock ran sheer up."

[gives Odysseus a magic bad to contains winds and you can't open]

>"He gave me a leather bag, of a nine year-old ox he'd skinned,

§ 10.20  and bound the ways of the blustering winds in it,
for Cronion had made him master of the winds,
both to start and stop the ones he wishes.
He tied it tight in our hollow ship with a shiny silver cord,
so nothing would blow out even a little,"

[description]

>§ 10.25  "then he sent forth West Wind's breath to blow for me,
to carry the ships as well as ourselves. But he wasn't going
to succeed, for by our own folly we perished.
“Nine days we sailed, day and night alike,
and on the tenth our fatherland appeared,

>§ 10.30  and we caught sight of them tending fires, near as they were.
Then sweet sleep came upon me in my weariness,
for I always controlled the ship's sheet and didn't give it
to another comrade, so we'd reach our fatherland faster."

[crew open the bag and the wind blows them back to Aeolia]

This one's very conventional. There are two regions with the name of Aeolia, because Aeolia related to different people who founded different places, but only one is due west from Ithaca and they are almost blown home by the west wind.

The Aeolia islands are actually above Sicily but it makes sense to assume this is an island south of Sicily because he doesn't need to go through the narrow opening between Sicily and Italy that he will later on and because this would be the approach side from his direction of travel.

https://preview.redd.it/pztaqju9f8dh1.png?width=988&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae733248970503bbb67c0117a3c48f1ddff64709

They're then forced to set off before favourable winds return and so are blow further west.

Telepylus (Land of the Laestrygonians)

>“Six days we sailed, day and night alike,
and on the seventh we reached the sheer citadel of Lamus,
Laestrygonian Telepylus, where herdsman greets herdsman:
the one driving in hails and the one driving out answers.
A sleepless man there could earn two wages,

>§ 10.85  one tending cattle, the other pasturing white sheep,
for the paths of day and night are close together.
Then when we entered the famous harbor, around which
steep rock extends continuously on both sides,
and, at its mouth, jutting headlands protrude,

>§ 10.90  opposite each other, and the entrance is narrow,
all of them kept their double-curved ships inside.
They were moored close together inside the hollow harbor,
for waves never grew in it, neither great nor small,
but there was a white calm about it.

>§ 10.95  But I alone kept my black ship outside,
at its edge, tied the cables to the rock,
climbed to a rugged lookout, and stood.
Works of neither men nor oxen appeared there,
and we saw only smoke spurting from the ground.

[Giant cannibals show up and eat most of the crew]

>"At once I urged and bid my comrades
lay on the oar handles, so we'd get out of danger,

>§ 10.130  and they all tossed up the sea in fear of destruction.
My ship gladly fled the overhanging rocks to the sea,
but the others were all destroyed together where they were.
We sailed on from there with grief in our hearts
at the loss of dear comrades, glad to have escaped death."

but I'm bored with doing this now, I'll return to it another time if anyone's interested

reddit.com
u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

Cool and really well made video but I'm going to be that guy point out the mistakes

This is the YouTube video DamiLee: "We Cut Atlantis in Half — Here's the Problem."

It has over half a million views in four days which is pretty good, and in general the professionalism of so much YouTube content is so high now, they've made an 3D AI enhanced model of Atlantis which looks amazing.

https://preview.redd.it/lmd1njz1duch1.png?width=1214&format=png&auto=webp&s=68bb5cf99029e61ad4ae4324da5dbfdeef7189ee

This is quite nice because they've actually shown the land outside the rings as the inhabited city zone with little houses. However, the walls are shown inside the rings whereas they should be outside them. This is given:

"The island .. and the rings, and the bridge (being a plethrum in width), they surrounded on both sides with (a) stone wall(s), placing towers and gates upon the bridges at each of the passages of the sea.”

"..wall around the outermost ring they covered the whole circuit with bronze, as if applying an ointment"

"(a) stone wall(s)" should be interpreted as plural, "stone walls", for this to makes sense with the colours of three walls described later. So all the walls outside the final harbour, not just the brass (should be bronze) one.

From this statement, this outer "bronze" wall should be the wall around the full 50 stadia outer ring of the habitable zone.

This one:

https://preview.redd.it/qzduycqahuch1.png?width=1213&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3e7834fa4e5a71861bacebf02707f57413bbba7

https://preview.redd.it/x9u8fc9eiuch1.jpg?width=2095&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3f93499cd0ba09dd0783cd85a1d1f0f919c0c87

Their modelled houses and trees and about 10x too big.

https://preview.redd.it/9z1wcav8juch1.png?width=1210&format=png&auto=webp&s=b6f201d3b7f17176c1e9ba35bc1100688e7c5c92

The houses in this view look about 20x too big. The massive projection out of the water I'm sure is for effect but this is also very confusing, thats about a 50m rise they'll showing there.

https://preview.redd.it/n7ito1izsuch1.png?width=1199&format=png&auto=webp&s=8b689ce12c051ca163b8deed516543c2c9f313ec

This is very cool. It's cool that they perfectly modelled a trireme, but I don't think the boats at this time were really triremes, also why it needs to go through a tunnel I don't follow, to me it reads as if the the bridges were only local to the gate-towers and there were bridges to the harbours at points not that the bridges were the tops of an elaborate tunnel system.

https://preview.redd.it/jf09ey17uuch1.png?width=1208&format=png&auto=webp&s=101024c88ba2879480671b6961879e1ac9143159

The presenter really insists that there was said to be a "second canal", but this is not stated. The reason they think this (I think) is due to the earlier problems with the walls, they read this passage:

"The island .. and the rings, and the bridge (being a plethrum in width), they surrounded on both sides with (a) stone wall(s), placing towers and gates upon the bridges at each of the passages of the sea.”

as singular the for "wall(s)", therefore they suddenly need to invent more than one passage passing through a single wall, rather than a single passage passing through multiple walls. If there were two canals Plato would have surely said two canals and he says one.

https://preview.redd.it/2bdzlyobwuch1.png?width=1211&format=png&auto=webp&s=adb7839b23ec737c4ae7254825d86a6850952b58

Interesting info about saltwater and freshwater here, but then they stopped making any sense and and started describing the Atlanteans as pumping freshwater out of the ground thereby using up their reserves. This isn't in Plato, there are no water pumps, he says there were pre-existing hot and cold springs which they used. They would have no need to accelerate water extraction when have abundant springs.

-

I wish people who can create these graphics would really just do it accuracy, that seems to be what they set out to dop but somewhere along the line they didn't quite stick to it. I'd like them to because it's truly impressive an it would be amazing to see it modelled accurately.

reddit.com
u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

God Errors - why Athena and Hephaestus should have been translated as Gia and Uranus

A while ago I made two posts stating why it makes sense to assume the Atlantis' founding god, said to be Poseidon, should have instead been translated as Oceanus.

Extending this logic, I think it can be rightly argued that Athena and Hephaestus should have instead been translated to Gia and Uranus.

-

Firstly, on the general reasoning for why there are these mistranslations.

Plato tells us that the Egyptians translated the account into their language and then Solon translated the Egyptian account into Greek, and therefore Plato tells us that all names in the account are Greek translations to match attributes the gods described.

This is the passage:

Critias: "Solon, when he intended to make use of the story in his own poetry, investigated the meaning of the names and discovered that the Egyptians who first recorded them had translated them into their own language; and he himself, in turn, taking up the sense of each name, wrote them down again in our own language."

Therefore, these selected gods are not certain and only point to attributes of the gods in the Egyptian account.

-

On the reason for Oceanus rather than Poseidon again.

I give longer winded reasoning in my linked posts 1 2 but essentially it boils down to:

  • Oceanus is already known to be the first Titan and the god of spring-water.
  • The account describes 'Poseidon' as founding the Atlantis city by creating a circular formation and it's fresh water springs.
  • Poseidon in comparison, shares attributes to the sea and is also identified with North Africa, but is a much later Olympian god and is not associated with springs.

It's understandable why Solon selected Poseidon for the translation given that they are both sea gods, but it was also rather naive of him to select the clearly more recent god for a very old setting.

Solon's poetry all focuses on Olympian gods, so he may also simply have been primed to think in these Olympian god terms.

-

Why Athena and Hephaestus should actually be Gia and Uranus

The passages of the account concerning Athena and Hephaestus are as follows:

Timaeus [23d-e] 

"The priest then said: ‘There is no reluctance, Solon, but for your sake and for that of your city I will speak, and especially for the sake of the goddess, who has received, nurtured, and educated both your land and this one—yours first a thousand years earlier, having received your seed from Earth and Hephaestus, and this one later."

[24b]

".. their armament with shields and spears, with which we were the first among those in Asia to be equipped, the goddess having first revealed it among you in those regions."

[24c-d]

".. the goddess established for you first and settled you there, having chosen the place in which you were born, observing that the tempering of the seasons in it would produce men of the greatest intelligence. And since the goddess was both warlike and a lover of wisdom, choosing the place most likely to produce men most akin to herself, she first settled it.

Critias [109b-c] 

".. the gods once apportioned the whole earth among themselves according to regions .. they reared us as their own possessions and creatures .. by laying hold of the soul through persuasion .."

[109c-d] 

".. Hephaestus and Athena, having a common nature, both as siblings from the same father and as sharing in philosophy and craftsmanship toward the same ends, thus received this land as a single allotment, as their own and suited to virtue and wisdom by its nature; and having produced good men, born of the soil, they set in their minds the ordering of the constitution."

[110b] 

".. according to that ancient law the goddess was depicted armed .."

[112b]

".. the warrior class itself, dwelling around the sanctuary of Athena and Hephaestus, as though they were surrounding the garden of a single house with one enclosing wall."

Analysis

The very first mention of the founding gods of Greece and Egypt Plato literally says "received your seed from Earth and Hephaestus" Earth is written as Γῆς, a capitalised form of the word 'earth' indicates Gia. So he literally says Gia and Hephaestus in this line.

Plato then returns to these founding god with an anomalous "the goddess": "the goddess having first revealed it among you .." , "the goddess established for you first ..".

Plato then discusses the world being appointed to regions of different gods, perhaps as a means to narrate a transition from Gia to Athena as this goddess character.

He then says "Hephaestus and Athena .. received this land as a single allotment..". It is strange that there was a pair Earth and Hephaestus and now a pair Hephaestus and Athena. He also describes Athena as said to be armed, but before this it was the anomalous "goddess" who is described as arming the Greeks with shields and spears, we have to presume this character is 'Earth' (Gia), not Athena who is arming them.

On Hephaestus. Hephaestus is another Olympian god whereas the true consort to Gia is Uranus. It is Uranus who seeds the later gods, not Hephaestus.

Why would Hephaestus have then been chosen?

Assumably the god in the original Egyptian account was said to be a craftsman figure. Was Uranus said to be a craftsman? Not in the Greek accounts we have, but in the Phoenician account of Sanchuniathon there are interesting lines that might shed light on this craftsman-Uranus link.

Sanchuniathon

Sanchuniathon describes an early figure called Chrysor who he equates with Hephaestus and Zeus-Meilichios. Again, this may not literally be the Olympian Hephaestus but rather a description of a similar 'craftsman' figure.

More interestingly he goes on to say:

"Afterwards there sprang from their [Chrysor's] race two youths, one of whom was called Technites (Artificer), and the other Geinos Autochthon (Earth-born Aboriginal)."

Could this "Geinos" figure be linked to Gia? I think so, and her counterpart is called the "Technites" which fits the Hephaestus role.

A bit later he says:

"And from them [the people of this region] is born Epigeius or Autochthon, whom they afterwards called Uranus .. And he has a sister born of the aforesaid parents, who was called Ge (earth) .. And Uranus, having succeeded to his father's rule, takes to himself in marriage his sister Ge, and gets by her four sons, Elus who is also Kronos, and Baetylus, and Dagon who is Siton, and Atlas."

Here he is explicitly regarding Ge (Gia) and Uranus. It reads as if these figures are born out of the previous Geinos and Technites figures. If this is correct, then Ge must be born from Geinos and that leaves Uranus to be born out of the Technites (the craftsmen) and therefore, for this reason, it makes sense that he could have been conflated with Hephaestus.

lastly:

"Ge was angry, and from jealousy began to reproach Uranus, so that they even separated from each other.  But Uranus, after he had left her, used to come upon her with violence, whenever he chose, and consort with her, and go away again; he used to try also to destroy his children by her; but Ge repelled him many times, having gathered to herself allies."

Here we see that Ge can also be a warrior figure, just as the anomalous

Diodorus Siculus

Diodorus Siculus describes the first king of the Atlantians as being Uranus in this passage:

"Their first king was Uranus, and he gathered the human beings, who dwelt in scattered habitations, within the shelter of a walled city and caused his subjects to cease from their lawless ways and their bestial manner of living, discovering for them the uses of cultivated fruits, how to store them up, and not a few other things which are of benefit to man; and he also subdued the larger part of the inhabited earth, in particular the regions to the west and the north."

Then describes how Titaea is the same person as Ge (Gia) here:

"To Uranus, the myth continues, were born forty-five sons from a number of wives, and, of these, eighteen, it is said, were by Titaea, each of them bearing a distinct name, but all of them as a group were called, after their mother, Titans. Titaea, because she was prudent and had brought about many good deeds for the peoples, was deified after her death by those whom she had helped and her name was changed to Ge."

Again with have a description of Uranus and Ge (Gia) as founding the Atlantians.

-

In summary

In all three accounts, Plato, Sanchuniathon and Diodorus, there are two male and female figures that first initiate the organisation of the first people, people who the birth the Atlanteans, or, in Sanchuniathon, the god Atlas.

In both Sanchuniathon and Diodorus these two figures are Uranus and Gia.

In Sanchuniathon Uranus is linked to the Technites (craftsmen) and Ge (Gia) has warrior qualities.

It is only in Plato's account that these two figures are named as Hephaestus and Athena. Hephaestus links to the craftsman attribute of Uranus as described by Sanchuniathon and Athena links to warrior quality of Ge (Gia) as described by Sanchuniathon.

Therefore, just as with Oceanus being conflated with the Olympian Poseidon it seems that Solon mistakenly has conflated Uranus and Gia with Athena and Hephaestus.

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u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

Who were Gia and Ouranos?

This isn't really rhetorical, I've had a stab but I'm not entirely sure.

The most detailed textual description of Gia and Ouranos, as well as other gods, come from The Preparation of the Gospels by Eusebius who cites passages from Sanchuniathon, relevant extracts of these I pull out into the maps.

The issue with Uranus/Ouranos is that they both fit well as the Natufians and then later as the Western Hunter Gatherers, these were genetically related groups so I wonder whether, as the Natufians were replaced by the new agricultural people distinctively different by their light skin, these original Natufians became considered one and the same as the WHG.

Gia is another distinct group, I think the Near Eastern Tas Tepeler people work well but I'm not certain.

u/lucasawilliams — 1 month ago

You guys weren't getting it in the last post so this explains via a different angle

The snakes of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler aren't snakes they are eels and catfish. This is not my idea or opinion is it the conclusion of a 2020 article written by Dragoş Gheorghiu published in the scientific journal, Acta Musei, available here: https://www.academia.edu/43237136/THE_ARCHAEOLOGY_OF_A_MYTH_DECODING_G%C3%96BEKLI_TEPE_S_ICONOGRAPHY

The catfish/eel connection is described best in this video starting at 9min 50sec: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnqtrhUwoaE

The article makes the case that the "snake" depictions are not snakes but eels and catfish for the reason that their heads are splayed at the back. We see this in all catfish and eels because this is the position of the gills but not on snakes.

https://preview.redd.it/gtj90xb4glah1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=d6076518bf730ca80a068112a9b91bf057392585

https://preview.redd.it/7abdq718glah1.png?width=461&format=png&auto=webp&s=a22195a1467930a4689423b1f06fdc3b8e386796

catfish

catfish

eels

The second reason is due to the sizes of the heads and lengths of the bodies which resemble the proportion of eels and catfish not snakes. An extract of the article is here:

"One can see that two
different species of fish were represented,
because of the differences in the proportion
of the body and the head. The first species,
with the serpent-like body could belong to the
family Anguillidae, such as the Mesopotamian
spiny eel Mastacembelus mastacembelus
(common names: Marmahi = snake fish, mar-
mahi-ye khardar, Coad 2015, p. 2), which lives
in the south-east of Anatolia (Olgunoğlu 2011;
Gumus et al. 2010; Dağli and Erdemli 2009;
Çakmak and Alp 2010), and can reach almost
a meter in length (Gheorghiu 2018, p. 26).
Fish groups may suggest schools of fsh, or
late spring mass migrations (Charvát 2005),
specifc to the Euphrates River. (fg. 1)
The second species is represented by ani-
mals with a short body and large triangular
heads [that] could represent the catfsh Silurus
triostegus (whose osteological remains were
found on the site, see Peters and Schmidt
2004, p. 206) with the cranium triangular in
shape (Ünlü et al. 2012, p. 121), which lives
only in the Euphrates and Tigris basins (Ünlü
and Bozkurt 1996; Coad and Holcik 2000),
[and] whose dimensions could reach up to
1 m long, too Gheorghiu 2018, p. 26). (fg. 2)
The fish of the frst species are repre-
sented swimming in compact groups, while
the second species are solitary. Both species
are necrophagic."

The third reason is that the depictions display the necrophagic behaviour of these creatures, the article highlights that carvings depict eels and catfish with their heads around other animals, seemingly eating them, or eels emerging from animals. The article also interprets what had previously been interpreted as spiders as crayfish, another necrophagic feeding animal. Therefore, it suggests that dead animals are shown being eaten or fed to these eels, catfish and crayfish.

Crayfish surrounded by eels, with eel head lined up to the rims each side of the groove

https://preview.redd.it/0w4faqsbklah1.png?width=420&format=png&auto=webp&s=1c9c93b8d91421c1549efd607dd1a7a61f19bb63

Eels are very strange for the fact that all freshwater eels swim thousands of kms out to the Sargasso Sea in the Atlantic ocean to breed. Clearly, the people of the Tas Tepeler would have had no idea about this and, never seeing the animals breed but seeing clods of them around dead animals, they may have assumed eels emerged out of dead animals, as shown in this pillar below:

eels emerging out of the feet and stomach of a dead fox

You can also see a load of eels eating here, there aren't videos of eels eating dead animals so this is the closest you can get to imagining it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJa2lSyk45c

Catfish swimming up to two people seated in an elongated object

This lattice is thought to be a fishing net

In conclusion

The pillars are covered with depictions of catfish, eels and crayfish as well as many wetland bird species. These people were obsessed with river habitats. We know they had boats because they sailed to Cyprus and the first and simplest boat to make, across cultures globally, has been the dugout canoe so we can assume their boats were dugout canoes. They would be spending a lot of time on these canoes on the rivers catching eels, catfish, crayfish and birds. Dugout canoes last about 2-5 years before splitting and leaking, for a tribe of 1000 people, if canoes were shared between 2 people, this would mean about 1 canoe was made and another canoe discarded every 2 days, so there would be a lot of defunct canoes left around.

You could use a discarded canoe as a support for a house, beyond this it is simple to see how a tradition of canoe pillars began without even needing to touch on the people sitting in the "Totem Pole" or the pillar grooves.

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u/lucasawilliams — 2 months ago

The T-Pillar Form of Göbekli Tepe and the other Taş Tepeler may derive from the form of dugout canoes

Dugout canoes were present in this region, as people had been travelling to Cyprus for up to 1000 years prior.

The Taş Tepeler are on limestone hill that would have been surrounded by a riparian landscape dominated by rivers and streams.

Water was central to the sites; there were reflection pools and channelling of water flow throughout.

Dugout canoes last 2-5 years and once expired cannot be easily repaired.

The snake iconography often shows a fared fish more ain to the gills of catfish.

The Göbekli Tepe "totem pole" and Kilisik sculpture both show human figures contained within canoe-like objects.

The T-pillars show a groove down their front faces indicative of the interior of a dugout canoe.

Dugout canoes, such as the Pesse Canoe, have bulky ends becoming the cap of the T-pillars

https://www.academia.edu/169429954/A_Dugout_Canoe_Origin_Model_for_the_Ta%C5%9F_Tepeler_T_Pillar_Form?source=swp_share

u/lucasawilliams — 2 months ago

Overview of the history of Greece at and before the time of Plato.

The history of Greece at and before the time of Plato.

The account of Atlantis came close to being lost amid the events and conflicts of Greece. Plato was born in 428/427 BC, 62 years prior, in 490 BC, the city states of Greece were being invaded by the largest force of men the region had ever witnessed. Darius I, who inherited the role of king from Cyrus the Great founder of the newly formed Persian empire, sailed an army of 20,000-25,000 archers, cavalry and militia into mainland Greece to subdue coastal cities, 10 years later his son, Xerxes would march in an army 10x the size. Had Greece fallen to the Persians there is a chance that a cultural valuing of knowledge and history may have been lost.

Defeat of the Persians

35 years before the invasion of Greece, in 525 BC, the Persians had subjugated Egypt. Herodotus, writing in 450 BC, describes the Persians as killing the Apis bull, mocking Egyptian religion and desecrating tombs. 4 years earlier, in 494 BC, Ionian Greek cities on the west coast of Turkey attempted a rebellion against this new Persian rule which they had been living under for 50 years. Somehow, mainland Greek cities were unaware of the scale of this new Persian power and sent ships to support their Greek kin in this rebellion.

This revolt was decisively defeated by the Persians. Men were killed and woman and children sold into slavery, domestic, labour or as concubines across the Persian Empire. In punishment for their support, and to quell a liability at the edge of their territory, the Persians set out to subdue mainland Greece.

First, the Persians under general Mardonius starts a campaign in what is today North Macedonia, at the arrival of the army these northern Greek cities conceded to Persian rule. The Persians then send emissaries to cities in the mainland to test their temperament. Many conceded but Athens, the small city of Plataea and Laconia (Sparta) rejected this request and formed an alliance. The following year Persians arrived by sea near Marathon, a town on the south east coast, 20,000-25,000 archers, cavalry and militia the largest land invasion the cities of Greece had ever encountered. Despite the pact, the Spartans were unable to attend as the battle clashed with their week long festival to Apollo. Athens and Plataea mounted a force of 10,000 hoplites defeating the larger Persian force. The messenger Pheidippides famously running 42km back to Athens to deliver the news and died moments after saying “joy, we won.”

10 years later, in 480 BC, Darius’ son Xerxes returns to avenge the defeat of his father with an army 8x to 10x the size, at approximately 200,000 soldiers. It’s worth dwelling on the size of this army for a moment. Until this time the largest armies had only ever been sized to the tens of thousands, these being rostered by Egypt or the Hittites, not the hundreds of thousands. Even the army of Alexander the Great, 150 years later, was at most 50,000 strong.

There was not a fleet large enough to transport such an army along with its equally sized supply personnel so it was marched down from what is today North Macedonia with a fleet travelling separately. A coalition of 7,000 Greek soldiers under the Spartan leader Leonidas assembled at a narrow mountain pass at Thermopylae to meet the Persian force. To the Persians it appeared the pass was the only route into mainland Greece. They fought for two days but Greek hoplite force was easily able to repel their attacks head on. The Persians then learnt of a mountain route that would enable then to outflank the position. On this development Leonidas allowed Greek soldiers to retreat and approximately 5,000 men took this opportunity. Whoever chose to stay could also do so, enabling the fleeing Greeks time to escape unhindered and to send a message of defiance to the Persian army.

A force of 1,400 Greeks, 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans, chose to remain and die and managed to kill 20,000 Persians approximately a tenth of the army. The Persians will now march towards an evacuating Athens.

Alongside this battle, a larger Greek force was simultaneously fighting a defensive sea battle, known as Artemisium, to prevent vessels from outflanking the position. Each Trireme held approximately 200 men and 271 Greek triremes faced 1,200 Persian triremes. A substantial portion of which being allied forces from the previously quelled Ionian Greeks. Their men had been killed and their women and children sold into slavery just 14 years earlier but this generation, being indoctrinated under Persian rule, now they fought with the Persians against their own Greek kin. Such is the fickleness of human nature.

30 Persian/Ionian Greek triremes were destroyed. But thankfully a violent storm intervened and destroyed a further estimated 400 Persian triremes. The Greeks avoided losses due to their sheltered position near the coast.

On news of the defeat of Leonidas these Greek triremes retreated south to a narrower, defensive position at Salamis, to reform a cohort of 371 triremes. Here the remaining 600 Persian/Ionian Greek triremes were surrounded and defeated and routed, 150 being lost.

Xerxes’ land army razed Athens but this sea defeat at Salamis posed a strategic problem for the Persians, they required good sea access routes to supply the land army with food. With 450 triremes remaining they could no longer guarantee safe passage for their supply vessels. Xerxes therefore splits the army and retreats with a portion of the land army back to Persia leaving a land force of 120,000 under the command of Mardonius to winter in their new northern satrapies.

The following year Mardonius’ land army returns south to reach the next of the defiant Greek coalition, Plataea. Here 38,700 Greek hoplites were supported by a mixture of 70,000 light troops and helots therefore forming an army of 110,000, matching the size of the Persian army. The Greek force led by the Spartan commander Pausanias defeated the Persians killing Mardonius.

 

Peloponnesian War

Following this repulsion of the Persians there followed a brief period of peace. However, Athens, the largest Greek city state, saw it as a requirement to free the Ionian Greek cities, the cities who only previously had been fighting on the side of the Persians.

To do this, in 478 BC Athens created an anti-Persian alliance called the Delian League which provided funding for fleets of Triremes to be sent out on missions to liberate their Ionian Greek kin.

Over the following 20 years the Delian League became such a success that Athens inadvertently formed a small naval empire in the Aegean Sea.

Sparta, felt threatened by this growing power, and the First Peloponnesian War breaks out between the two powers. This ends in a truce and agreement of peace for 30 years. However, with her newfound power Athens succumbs to hubris and greed; dictating the outcome of neighbouring conflicts and, to the irritation of Sparta, imposing tax on Megara, a Spartan ally. This act prompted Sparta to break the peace and initiate the Second Peloponnesian War. This involved intermittent raids and devastation across Athenian farmland and besieging of her cities. Rather than face the Spartans in battle and lose, in response, Athens abandoned her farmlands, of grain and pasture, and became reliant on imported food from the new influx of maritime trade.

It is at this moment that Plato is born.

Plague breaks out in Athens at this same time but being born into the secluded aristocracy Plato is able to avoid this.

For the next 20 years the Peloponnesian War continues with both sides taking small victories. Sparta then forms diplomatic agreements with the Persians and thereby receives funding for a naval force that eventually defeats the Athenian navy. Following this Athens surrenders in 404 BC.

The victorious Spartan commander, Lysander, places Athens under the command of a group of pro-Spartan Athenian aristocracy known as the Thirty Tyrants. This group conducted mass executions of democrats and certain wealthy individuals, killing 1,500 people in one year, many more were exiled from the city. Leading the Thirty Tyrants was Plato’s mother’s cousin, Critias.

The high number of exiled individuals banded together in a neighbouring village and formed a movement of defiance, slowing mustering an army. They captured a nearby fortress and their looming presence threatened the authority of the Thirty, who therefore set out to quash them. The Spartan king, not wanting the commander Lysander to become too powerful himself, instructed Sparta to abandon Athens and the forces of the Thirty Tyrants therefore needed to face off against the exiled democratic coalition themselves, they still had the larger force but foolishly attempted to fight uphill and were defeated. Critias was killed in battle at the age of 57. At this time Plato is 24.

Plato attributed his knowledge of Atlantis to Critias, but he records that Critias gained knowledge of the account from a shared relative of them both, Solon (630 BC, died 560 BC), who was Plato’s great-great-great-great-grandfather. Solon, lived long before even the wars with Persia during a time of relative peace in which Europe had for centuries been slowly reestablishing its industry and trade networks following the Bronze Age collapse, in 1166 BC.

Solon, Critias and Plato were all members of the same aristocratic family in Athens and as such they grew up amongst circles of political and intellectual influence, being able to choose where to channel their influence.

Solon had been an influential politician, diplomat and creator of laws. We’re told by Plato that he retrieved the story of Atlantis from an Egyptian priest during a visit, for the function of a Poem he didn’t get around to writing.

Assumably this story was passed down through members of the family in the intervening century between Solon’s death and Critias’ birth. It is also highly plausible that Solon had written notes which were retained and available to be read by Plato.

Socrates is not as directly relevant to the account but he plays a role in encouraging Plato’s intellectual endeavours. He is 42 years Plato’s elder, had served as a Hoplite in the Peloponnesian War and had also been a good friend of Critias, which left him slightly ostracised by popular society after the brief rise and fall of the Thirty Tyrants.

These are the events that surrounded the account; the defeat of Persia and the release of Spartan rule narrowly prevented Athens from losing her sovereignty. Instead, Plato was able to establish his Academy and foster a culture favouring knowledge, ideas and history.

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u/lucasawilliams — 2 months ago

The Nouakchottian Sea and shifts in true north

I'm going to be honest this doesn't very clearly relate to Atlantis.

Subtle land rises in Africa

I'm interesting in this region for reasons regarding the richat but this post doesn't touch on this. I found that weirdly sea levels around west coast of African have been both lower and higher in the time since the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) until today. Lower sea levels make sense, as sea levels across the world were about 150m lower during the LGM, however, we also know that the sea level relative to the land here was at one point slightly higher, predicted to have been 1-2.5m above present sea levels, in around 3500 BC.

1-2.5m isn't much, but led to at most a 90km change in the coastline around the Sebkha N’Dramcha as shown below in black. There's a city to the west of Mauritania called Nouakchot and therefore this whole area where a past sea would have covered parts of the land today is referred to the Nouakchottian Sea, or more accurately the Nouakchottian transgression or Nouakchottian maximum, although there's very little information on under any of these names.

Topo map and approximate area of \"Nouakchottian Sea\" in 3500 BC

By 2500 BC this Nouakchottian Sea retreated again.

Global sea levels broadly stabilised after 4000 BC, rising only by a couple of cm from then until today, so movements in the coastline of this region must be due to the land rising.

Land rising by 1-2.5m over a millennia is about 1-2.5mm a year which isn't that unusual but there's no particular reason for land to be rising in this region.

It's entirely possible that land here has been moderately rising since the LGM and this rise was only noticeable once sea levels stabilised after 4000 BC.

-

Movements in true north

This could relate to movements of true north. You may have heard of the position of magnetic north shifting over time. The movements look like this:

Magnetic north movement

Apparently this caused by variations in the flow of molten iron in Earth's outer core. However, you've probably not heard of the movement of true north, the point under which the planet rotates, this can drift as well but a lot less and we only have data from 1900. From 1900 until now true north has drifted by about 10m, this isn't much but does demonstrate that shifting is possible. The cause of this 10m movement has been attributed to changes in the weight distribution of glaciers at the poles.

It would be difficult for it to shift quickly because the world isn't spherical, it bulges out by 21km at the equator compared to the poles due to centrifugal force. Therefore even tiny movement translates to an incredible amount of force across the planet.

If the poles did, somehow, suddenly shift the oceans would redistribute to the new equator and only later would the crust and mantle readjust with a new matching bulge to this new equator.

Like this exaggerated diagram:

https://preview.redd.it/w8y3dgrxdo8h1.jpg?width=1977&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15f66ade0c62df3759a855deaf86e47dbca2084e

Because we know the land/sea height bulge is 21km at the equator we can estimate how much much sea level would change based on shifts in true north.

The 10m movement since 1900 would have affected sea levels by, at most, about 3.4cm, making the sea 3.4cm higher in one region of the planet and 3.4cm lower in another, depending on direction of the shift.

If instead true north shifted by 1000 m this sea level change would be 3.4m, until, over time, the earth's bulge redistributed to match the change.

How does this relate to the vertical rise in land of about 1.5mm a year around West Africa?

It relates because it suggests a possible reason for the land to be rising here, if the pole had previously been 1km closer to Greenland and then slowing drifted to it's current position around the end of the LGM then this region of Africa could be slowly still readjusting to it's bulge, however we should see similar similar slight readjustments in other regions, but +-2mm over broad regions isn't easy tor detect amongst local height change noise due to other factors and readjustment may have completed in the time since 3000 BC.

I mention all this and this particular movement of true north towards Greenland because this guy, Lance Weaver, thinks there is reason to believe the north pole could have been about 2000 km further towards Greenland due to the distribution of the glaciers during the LGM.

https://utahgeology.com/were-the-ice-ages-really-just-true-polar-wandering-events/

This is an interview in which he justifies the idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5K_0DdnAw

He might not be right, but the distribution of the ice during the LGM doesn't make sense and this is provides an explanation for that.

If so, the point is even a 1000 km movement of the pole could change sea level rather insanely by 3.3km at most. Of course this is ridiculous and it is only conceivable that the bulge of the earth adjusts slowly with the slow drift of true north nonetheless, there would be a slight delay at whatever pace the change occurred and even small delays could cause dramatic sea level variations.

This is to show where the equator, the line of the tropics, would be if you moved the pole by 2000 km, overlaid on a model of the changes in precipitation during the LGM.

https://preview.redd.it/q8zcpt16wo8h1.png?width=1003&format=png&auto=webp&s=45a07a21a7004b3889213b3ca8d34f2c3d35f675

This is a gravity map, density changes in the crust and magma cause very slight changes in weight distribution. Not really relevant to the point I'm making but I found it and it's about weight distribution again. You can imagine how surface changes in mantle could perhaps change the rotation line.

https://preview.redd.it/p7rs5w3zao8h1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=239e9914d73eb4ec4d9ae5ea712ca96c9245886a

The one area this is relevant to Atlantis is because in the Timaeus we're told:

"Phaethon, the son of Helios, having yoked his father’s chariot, because he was unable to drive it along his father’s course, burned up the things upon the earth and himself was struck by a thunderbolt and perished, this is told in the form of a myth, but the truth is a deviation of the bodies that move in the heavens around the earth, and a destruction by much fire of things on the earth, occurring at long intervals."

A shift in the north pole would create the deviation in the movements of the heavenly bodies, it would seem that the chariot of the sun was being driven on a different path. This story could also be relating to the ending of the African Humid Period and the hotter climate thereafter. Phaethon being struck by a thunderbolt could also relate to a comet so it's this doesn't clearly relate but it's possible.

Edit, I got the maths wrong, not that anyone noticed

TLDR

It's an interesting idea I recommend listening to the interview.

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u/lucasawilliams — 2 months ago

Part 3 - Tas Tepeler T-pillar Evolution

Most pillars have a recess on one of the thin sides, if it's shown as a person this is always the side the person is facing. There is no good explanation for these recesses, the current hypothesis is that it represents the edges of clothing, this doesn't make sense as the recess continues onto the overhang a little and because such stola style clothing would have existed without fabrics and also because there are no other edge of this supposed clothing shown. Instead these recesses signify the inside canoes.

The are H symbols and in different orientations and sometimes alongside bracket symbols. If we know the shape shapes derives from dugout canoes perhaps these H-symbols relate to canoes in some way I can't see how.

u/lucasawilliams — 2 months ago

Part 2: The Tas Tepeler are inspired by canoes. However, this is an attempt to explain the mushroom/T-shape ends. Maybe bulky sapwood was left on the ends of the canoes to prevent the wood from splitting but removed from the body to prevent rot

They say you shouldn't make boats out of live sapwood because sapwood rots. Therefore, if they wanted durable canoes they'd need to hack off the sapwood with their adzes before burning out the middle with embers. I'm not sure how necessary removing the sapwood is, this is a guess.

Perhaps sapwood was left on the ends to add bulk for structural reasons initially, as it might have helped to prevent the wood from splitting from the ends over time. I'd not entirely sure.

u/lucasawilliams — 3 months ago