r/classics

Athena asks Zeus to help Odysseus
▲ 106 r/classics+4 crossposts

Athena asks Zeus to help Odysseus

I illustrated the moment Athena tries to persuade Zeus to let Odysseus return to Ithaca.

As with every Odyssey related illustration, I tried to take every archaeological evidence and Homeric description there is into consideration to come up with something that is close to the original vision of the ancient Greeks.

Here, that endeavor required a lot of speculation since Homer’s descriptions of the Gods and Olympus are really sparse. What he tells us is that the Olympians have a council at Zeus’ palace with only Poseidon not attending. So I should have depicted every God? Not really. First of all because doing that would require months of research and second because my illustration would have been packed with tons of information making my endeavor to create a focal point impossible. So my solution to this was illustrating a closeup of the room with only Athena and Zeus visible to you (the rest of the Gods are just outside of our point of view). After this decision I had to find a way to depict the palace and the two Olympians. In the Illiad, Homer tells us that Zeus’ palace is covered in bronze and the throne room has a golden floor and golden thrones for all the Gods. Athena is described as being blue (or grey) eyed sometimes wearing the aegis (and other weapons that I will not include here since this isn’t a war scene) and Zeus as having long hair, dark brows, a beard and holding a sceptre.

As you can see, there are many gaps that I have to somehow fill. But where does someone find answers to cover Homer’s silence? Archaeology. The Homeric stories supposedly happened during the 12th or 13th century BCE. This was the time of the Mycenaeans. The remains of that civilization can give us a good picture of how things looked back then. But do they tell us anything about the appearance of their Gods? Not really. So we had to dig deeper.

Throughout their history, the Greeks viewed their Gods as a more powerful version of themselves. In the statues (that I couldn’t use as references since they were of later periods) they look like regular fit people wearing regular-expensive clothes (with the aegis being an exception). With that thought in mind I tried to look at elite Mycenaean fashion and implement that to the Gods with some gold touches for extra luxury. For Athena I used the images of those frescoes that depict women in some kind of a festival and for Zeus I used that other fresco that depicts wealthy male figures. As you can see there is a great difference in skin color between them. That’s because Athena is wearing some kind of makeup throughout her body that makes her look whiter than Zeus' tanned skin tone. The evidence behind that artistic choice is again those frescoes that depict Mycenaean women with such aesthetics.

Moving to the accessories, I had to add the aegis on Athena to make the viewer make a visual connection with the more familiar images of the Goddess. The thing is that the more standardized appearance of it is not what Homer tells us about it. In the Iliad it is described to be consisting of a hundred golden tassels and, of course, in the center there is the terrifying face of the Gorgon Medusa. For that my references were those archaic depictions of the figure (the earliest ones that I could find). Moving to Zeus, he is holding a sceptre that I based on those depictions on Greek pottery (much later than Mycenaean period but better than my 21st century imagination) and since Homer gives us a description of it having golden suns I added those golden spheres. His throne is based on Mycenaean throne reconstructions.

For the room behind them, I looked at how Mycenaean throne rooms looked. They consisted of a throne, a fireplace in the center (with a ceiling opening for the smoke to escape) and four columns holding the immense weight of the roof. So, for the only one of those columns that is visible, my reference were those elaborate Mycenaean columns from “Atreus’ tomb”. For the wall patterns I created a scene in which a griffin hunts a deer based on similar depictions from Mycenaean palaces.

A small excerpt from the Odyssey that mentions this scene:

Athena said:

“Aegisthus deserved the punishment he received. Yet it is not his fate that troubles me. My heart grieves for Odysseus, who remains stranded on the lonely island of Ogygia, far from his home and friends. There, the nymph Calypso keeps him against his will, hoping he will forget Ithaca. But all he longs for is to see his homeland once more. Have you forgotten the countless sacrifices he offered you during the Trojan War? Why do you still allow him to suffer?”

Zeus answered:

“How could I ever forget Odysseus, whose wisdom and devotion to the gods surpassed that of other men? It is Poseidon who stands in his way. Odysseus blinded the Cyclops Polyphemus, and ever since, the sea god has sought revenge by preventing his return. Yet if we stand together, Poseidon will eventually yield. Let us decide how we may help him.”

u/DPap_Art — 4 hours ago
▲ 157 r/classics+2 crossposts

The Meeting of Orestes and Hermione (c. 1800) by Anne-Louis Girodet de Roussy-Trioson

u/zgido_syldg — 7 hours ago

Seeking help reading the Iliad

Hello everyone , I'm reading the Iliad for the first time, specifically the Fagles translation. I'm having a problem with understanding what is being said at times and I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify when it's needed. I appreciate you reading the post and hope to hear from you

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u/ArmanatheCustos — 7 hours ago

I want to experience the Greek Mythology & Trojan saga in the richest possible way. What's the best order?

I don't know anything about Greek & their mythology. I want to experience the entire Trojan saga in the most rewarding way possible.

Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey is releasing soon, and it's made me realize I've never actually read Homer or the Greek epics.

At first, I thought I'd simply read The Iliad before The Odyssey. Then I learned that The Iliad only covers about few days near the end of the Trojan War. It doesn't include the beginning of the war, the Trojan Horse, or even the fall of Troy. After that I discovered that many of the original epics (like the Cypria, Aethiopis, Little Iliad, Iliupersis, etc.) are lost. And The Trojan Saga also not enough, it is part of Greek Mythology.

Now I'm confused.

I'm not looking for the minimum reading required to understand The Odyssey, and I'm not looking for a YouTube summary or a "just read Homer" answer.

What I want is to experience the Greek Mythology & Trojan saga as a coherent story, with as much emotional impact as possible.

So my questions are:

  1. If you were introducing someone to the Greek Mythology & Trojan saga for the first time, what order would you recommend?

  2. Are there novels or retellings or videos that faithfully reconstruct the lost epics without changing too much?

I'd especially love to hear from people who know everything about Greek Mythology and Trojan Saga.

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u/iamanonymouami — 1 day ago

PHD programs outside the U.S.

Hi, I will be applying to graduate school this year for classics, and wanted to ask if anyone has information on the programs and application requirements for graduate level programs in countries outside the United States. I am particularly interested in Germany, the U.K., and Spain. I also am looking at U.S. schools, but wanted to see if any international programs suit me as student visas are one of the best ways (or so I have heard) to get citizenship if I decide to ever make the move outside of the country. Also is just another area I want to know more about so when I finally make a decision I have as much information as possible.

Also would love advice on programs as a whole, thanks :)

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u/Sakurae1 — 1 day ago
▲ 10 r/classics+1 crossposts

I did a list of my top 5 lost works that I hope will be found on the Herculaneum Scrolls

I was experimenting with making a list post and I came with a wish-list for what lost works will be found in the remaining Herculaneum scrolls. I know it's very unlikely any one of those on my list will be found for real, but still it was a fun exercise. What do you think? Do you have your own top 5? or top 10?

asequentialart.com
u/asequentialart — 1 day ago

Research journals that might accept high-school Classics research submissions?

As the title suggests, any departments/journals I should look at? Any advice or recommendations would be appreciated!

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u/vibelvive — 1 day ago

Those who know Greek very well, do you think Ancient Greek literature can compete in quality with the best of modern literature? If so, where does it particularly excel?

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u/Wooden_Schedule6205 — 1 day ago

Classical literature for a total beginner?

I've been wanting to get into classical lit - Homer, Plato, etc. - for quite some time BUT I have literally no background knowledge. I probably know less about Greek mythology than the average Percy Jackson fan.

Otherwise I read classics a lot and I am not afraid to tackle a heavy book; however, English is not my first language so I might benefit from reading a guiding work on the side for analytical support. Any suggestions on where I should start? Recommendations for beginner works and/or guides are both welcome!

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u/Middle-Hedgehog_740 — 2 days ago
▲ 2 r/classics+3 crossposts

Before the announcement of the new (and controversial) Nolan film, were you already familiar with Homer's epics, the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey*? If so, which Interpretation (summarys, books, Movies etc.)?

My answer to this question:
I am german and was born in the same year as „Troy“ by Wolfgang Petersen released in the cinemas.
As a child, I first learned about the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey* through summaries in the “Was ist Was” audio plays and books by Tessloff. Later, I wanted to read these stories properly on my own. My mother and father then gave me the retellings by Bernhard Evslin, published by dtv and translated into German by Isabell Lorenz, with illustrations by Dieter Wiesmüller. I read them at least twice as a child and teenager.

u/AximiliMythenmetz — 3 days ago
▲ 17 r/classics+3 crossposts

I built this

I love Project Gutenberg. Classic works, available to anyone for free, is my jam.
The issue is that the site is slow, the books are poorly formatted, and the accessibility is bad.
So I built an homage to Project Gutenberg that fixes all those problems - https://bettergutenberg.org/

Just launched, would love to know what you think, and how to make it better.

u/LingonberryMind — 2 days ago

What did you read this week?

Whether you are a student, a teacher, a researcher or a hobbyist, please share with us what you read this week (books, textbooks, papers...).

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u/AutoModerator — 3 days ago

Ancient History and its minority

In my university and generally in my country -i don’t know abroad- historiographers like Tacitus, Herodotus and Thucydides are mistreated and considered history stuff: people studying for classics exams never get to study their literary production, in classica philology there’s a predominance of poetry and i can see that by my teachers sheets and their exam programs, all about V Bc theatre, Homer, Virgil, lyrical poetry like Sappho and Pindar. But XVIII philologists dealt with EVERYTHING, both prose and poetry and they put the basis. It’s called Altertumwissenchaft because it’s complete of everything and yet philologists mistreat history.
That’s my impression, i studied greek and latin at school and now i study Classical philology at university

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u/Apollo_Febo — 2 days ago

Why didn't Dido leave with Aeneas?

why didn't Dido leave Carthage together with Aeneas? I understand that she had to govern the city, but if the need to protect Carthage was so strong, why did she suicide? she still left the the city without the queen.

edit: thanks to everyone for the interesting answers to my question

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u/Competitive-Ant-9975 — 3 days ago

Sell me on the Works and Days

One of my copies of Hesiod's works (bought two bc they had different stuff in them, this is unimportant) has an introduction wherein the editor declared that the myth that Hesiod beat Homer in a poetry competition serves as a testament to the bad taste of the society that came up with that myth. That seems a little mean and unjustified, I thought as I read that introduction. Well, having almost finished the Works and Days, I think they were right. It starts off so very promising, the framing of it being an address to Hesiod's wayward brother Perses, the themes of Zeus as overseer of the universe and dispenser of justice, I thought it was all very interesting and a clever literary work. Then the farming advice started. And kept going. I must admit I fail to see any literary merit or cleverness to these elements. Is there some literary device or clever artistic metaphor/allegory/meaning/whatever working here that I'm not seeing? I saw a chiastic structure in the completion of the yearly cycle ending with the beginning he started with (though that's not a very hard thing to do, in fact it's probably harder not to do it), but I'm not seeing anything else. I am very much struggling to see why this was so popular. Defenders of the Works and Days, please, convince me with literary interpretation why this is a good poem!

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u/Scientific_Zealot — 4 days ago
▲ 6 r/classics+3 crossposts

The Truncated Paradigm: Plato’s Critias as a Triple-Layered Psycholiterary Esotericism and Prequel to the Odyssey

I wrote an essay proposing that Critias was left unfinished intentionally rather than by accident. My argument is that the dialogue’s abrupt ending can be understood as a deliberate literary and philosophical device operating on three levels: the narrative itself, Plato’s critique of hubris and political ambition, and a meta-commentary that forces the reader to confront the limits of certainty and completion.

I’d genuinely appreciate thoughtful criticism, especially from people familiar with Plato or ancient philosophy.

Read it here:

The Substack Article

u/Charming-Smell-4236 — 2 days ago
▲ 60 r/classics+2 crossposts

I need help to find a sappho fragment

For context: I‘m kinda painting yuri for my art assignment and wanted to write a part of a sapphic poem in the original ancient greek onto it. I landed on fragment 58b and fits perfectly with my motive. The problem is that i couldn‘t find the original greek version after searching for HOURS and it doesn’t really help that i don’t know a lick ancient greek. Can somebody help find it?
Thanks ^^

u/Aspen_Zephyros — 4 days ago

Started a Supplement/Guide on the Names and Places in Plutarchs Lives.

There are many names and places that are unknown to the General/Academic reader in this important work.

Multiple volumes perhaps just two of 1.People and 2.Places. The first Bio in the Dryden is Theseus and a name 'Sosius is mentioned. Nothing else beyond that he was a biographer is mentioned. I'm thinking of this as the same thing as the Cambridge guide to Plotinus. I've recieved much encouragement from my fellows and am looking for some input. Figured this was appropiate as Plutarch was a Platonist. Any thoughts or critique is welcome.

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u/greenteam709 — 4 days ago

Sources on Western Roman Empire Fashion and Roman-Britain fashion

The setting of my story and Worldbuilding is based on (for now) the Immigration Era which happens alongside the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Fall of Roman Britain. Not to mention Anglo-Saxon England.

Every time I research about fashion during the Western Roman Empire, it always shows me the stereotypical Roman fashion during the Late Republic and Early Imperial Era no matter how hard I try to find.

What sources (both digital and Physical, Literary) sources can you show me that best defines and illustrates what people (male and female) during the Western Roman Empire and the Fall of Roman Britain wore?

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u/Silentguardsman007 — 4 days ago