r/atlantis

A Bronze Age superpower.

https://www.amazon.com/Atlantis-Cypriot-Empire-Jordi-Harth/dp/9925813107

Listen till the end, and the haunting "Promethean Temptation" song is guaranteed to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up! The rest of the audiobook is produced in the same "Odyssey of the Mind" style. And, yes, as you can see and hear, I had a lot of fun bringing my story to life with AI; BUT the words and story are all mine.

NOTE: This is not part of a "disinformation campaign". It is one of many posts stating what is both known and proven about Atlantis -- a subject involving more speculation than the stock market, and more fiction than Æsop's Fables and Grimm's Fairy Tales put together.

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The story of Atlantis has fascinated people for centuries. Many books, movies, and television programs have explored the idea of a lost city that disappeared beneath the ocean. Some people believe Atlantis was a real place, while others continue searching for evidence of its existence. However, most historians and scientists agree that Atlantis is a myth simply because there is no reliable proof that it ever existed, and its story likely began as a fictional tale.

• The Story Comes from a Single Source: The ancient Greek philosopher Plato wrote about Atlantis around 360 BC in his works "Timaeus" and "Critias". According to Plato, Atlantis was a powerful island civilization that sank into the sea after a great disaster. No earlier records mention Atlantis, and no other ancient writers provided independent evidence that such a place existed. Because the story appears only in Plato's writings, many scholars believe he invented it to illustrate his own philosophical ideas.

• The Lack of Archaeological Evidence: Researchers have explored many parts of the world, including the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea, looking for traces of the (alleged) lost civilization. Despite these efforts, no ruins, artifacts, or other physical evidence have been found that prove Atlantis existed. In history, important civilizations usually leave behind clear signs of their presence. Since no such evidence has been discovered for Atlantis, the claim that it was real remains unsupported.

• The Theologic Symbolism: Many details of the Atlantis story seem more symbolic than historical. Plato described Atlantis as an advanced society that became corrupt and was punished "by the gods". This theme matches the moral lessons found in many myths and legends. Scholars often view Atlantis as a cautionary tale about pride, greed, and the misuse of power rather than a factual account of a real civilization.

: : Atlantis is widely regarded as a myth because: (1) its story comes only from Plato, (2) there is no valid archaeological evidence to support its existence, and (3) its message resembles that of a moral allegory about hubris. While the alleged mystery of Atlantis continues to capture the imagination of people around the world, all available valid evidence very strongly suggests that Atlantis is merely a fictional story rather than a real place from history.

The history of Greece at and before the time of Plato.

The account of Atlantis came close to being lost amid the events and conflicts of Greece. Plato was born in 428/427 BC, 62 years prior, in 490 BC, the city states of Greece were being invaded by the largest force of men the region had ever witnessed. Darius I, who inherited the role of king from Cyrus the Great founder of the newly formed Persian empire, sailed an army of 20,000-25,000 archers, cavalry and militia into mainland Greece to subdue coastal cities, 10 years later his son, Xerxes would march in an army 10x the size. Had Greece fallen to the Persians there is a chance that a cultural valuing of knowledge and history may have been lost.

Defeat of the Persians

35 years before the invasion of Greece, in 525 BC, the Persians had subjugated Egypt. Herodotus, writing in 450 BC, describes the Persians as killing the Apis bull, mocking Egyptian religion and desecrating tombs. 4 years earlier, in 494 BC, Ionian Greek cities on the west coast of Turkey attempted a rebellion against this new Persian rule which they had been living under for 50 years. Somehow, mainland Greek cities were unaware of the scale of this new Persian power and sent ships to support their Greek kin in this rebellion.

This revolt was decisively defeated by the Persians. Men were killed and woman and children sold into slavery, domestic, labour or as concubines across the Persian Empire. In punishment for their support, and to quell a liability at the edge of their territory, the Persians set out to subdue mainland Greece.

First, the Persians under general Mardonius starts a campaign in what is today North Macedonia, at the arrival of the army these northern Greek cities conceded to Persian rule. The Persians then send emissaries to cities in the mainland to test their temperament. Many conceded but Athens, the small city of Plataea and Laconia (Sparta) rejected this request and formed an alliance. The following year Persians arrived by sea near Marathon, a town on the south east coast, 20,000-25,000 archers, cavalry and militia the largest land invasion the cities of Greece had ever encountered. Despite the pact, the Spartans were unable to attend as the battle clashed with their week long festival to Apollo. Athens and Plataea mounted a force of 10,000 hoplites defeating the larger Persian force. The messenger Pheidippides famously running 42km back to Athens to deliver the news and died moments after saying “joy, we won.”

10 years later, in 480 BC, Darius’ son Xerxes returns to avenge the defeat of his father with an army 8x to 10x the size, at approximately 200,000 soldiers. It’s worth dwelling on the size of this army for a moment. Until this time the largest armies had only ever been sized to the tens of thousands, these being rostered by Egypt or the Hittites, not the hundreds of thousands. Even the army of Alexander the Great, 150 years later, was at most 50,000 strong.

There was not a fleet large enough to transport such an army along with its equally sized supply personnel so it was marched down from what is today North Macedonia with a fleet travelling separately. A coalition of 7,000 Greek soldiers under the Spartan leader Leonidas assembled at a narrow mountain pass at Thermopylae to meet the Persian force. To the Persians it appeared the pass was the only route into mainland Greece. They fought for two days but Greek hoplite force was easily able to repel their attacks head on. The Persians then learnt of a mountain route that would enable then to outflank the position. On this development Leonidas allowed Greek soldiers to retreat and approximately 5,000 men took this opportunity. Whoever chose to stay could also do so, enabling the fleeing Greeks time to escape unhindered and to send a message of defiance to the Persian army.

A force of 1,400 Greeks, 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans, chose to remain and die and managed to kill 20,000 Persians approximately a tenth of the army. The Persians will now march towards an evacuating Athens.

Alongside this battle, a larger Greek force was simultaneously fighting a defensive sea battle, known as Artemisium, to prevent vessels from outflanking the position. Each Trireme held approximately 200 men and 271 Greek triremes faced 1,200 Persian triremes. A substantial portion of which being allied forces from the previously quelled Ionian Greeks. Their men had been killed and their women and children sold into slavery just 14 years earlier but this generation, being indoctrinated under Persian rule, now they fought with the Persians against their own Greek kin. Such is the fickleness of human nature.

30 Persian/Ionian Greek triremes were destroyed. But thankfully a violent storm intervened and destroyed a further estimated 400 Persian triremes. The Greeks avoided losses due to their sheltered position near the coast.

On news of the defeat of Leonidas these Greek triremes retreated south to a narrower, defensive position at Salamis, to reform a cohort of 371 triremes. Here the remaining 600 Persian/Ionian Greek triremes were surrounded and defeated and routed, 150 being lost.

Xerxes’ land army razed Athens but this sea defeat at Salamis posed a strategic problem for the Persians, they required good sea access routes to supply the land army with food. With 450 triremes remaining they could no longer guarantee safe passage for their supply vessels. Xerxes therefore splits the army and retreats with a portion of the land army back to Persia leaving a land force of 120,000 under the command of Mardonius to winter in their new northern satrapies.

The following year Mardonius’ land army returns south to reach the next of the defiant Greek coalition, Plataea. Here 38,700 Greek hoplites were supported by a mixture of 70,000 light troops and helots therefore forming an army of 110,000, matching the size of the Persian army. The Greek force led by the Spartan commander Pausanias defeated the Persians killing Mardonius.

 

Peloponnesian War

Following this repulsion of the Persians there followed a brief period of peace. However, Athens, the largest Greek city state, saw it as a requirement to free the Ionian Greek cities, the cities who only previously had been fighting on the side of the Persians.

To do this, in 478 BC Athens created an anti-Persian alliance called the Delian League which provided funding for fleets of Triremes to be sent out on missions to liberate their Ionian Greek kin.

Over the following 20 years the Delian League became such a success that Athens inadvertently formed a small naval empire in the Aegean Sea.

Sparta, felt threatened by this growing power, and the First Peloponnesian War breaks out between the two powers. This ends in a truce and agreement of peace for 30 years. However, with her newfound power Athens succumbs to hubris and greed; dictating the outcome of neighbouring conflicts and, to the irritation of Sparta, imposing tax on Megara, a Spartan ally. This act prompted Sparta to break the peace and initiate the Second Peloponnesian War. This involved intermittent raids and devastation across Athenian farmland and besieging of her cities. Rather than face the Spartans in battle and lose, in response, Athens abandoned her farmlands, of grain and pasture, and became reliant on imported food from the new influx of maritime trade.

It is at this moment that Plato is born.

Plague breaks out in Athens at this same time but being born into the secluded aristocracy Plato is able to avoid this.

For the next 20 years the Peloponnesian War continues with both sides taking small victories. Sparta then forms diplomatic agreements with the Persians and thereby receives funding for a naval force that eventually defeats the Athenian navy. Following this Athens surrenders in 404 BC.

The victorious Spartan commander, Lysander, places Athens under the command of a group of pro-Spartan Athenian aristocracy known as the Thirty Tyrants. This group conducted mass executions of democrats and certain wealthy individuals, killing 1,500 people in one year, many more were exiled from the city. Leading the Thirty Tyrants was Plato’s mother’s cousin, Critias.

The high number of exiled individuals banded together in a neighbouring village and formed a movement of defiance, slowing mustering an army. They captured a nearby fortress and their looming presence threatened the authority of the Thirty, who therefore set out to quash them. The Spartan king, not wanting the commander Lysander to become too powerful himself, instructed Sparta to abandon Athens and the forces of the Thirty Tyrants therefore needed to face off against the exiled democratic coalition themselves, they still had the larger force but foolishly attempted to fight uphill and were defeated. Critias was killed in battle at the age of 57. At this time Plato is 24.

Plato attributed his knowledge of Atlantis to Critias, but he records that Critias gained knowledge of the account from a shared relative of them both, Solon (630 BC, died 560 BC), who was Plato’s great-great-great-great-grandfather. Solon, lived long before even the wars with Persia during a time of relative peace in which Europe had for centuries been slowly reestablishing its industry and trade networks following the Bronze Age collapse, in 1166 BC.

Solon, Critias and Plato were all members of the same aristocratic family in Athens and as such they grew up amongst circles of political and intellectual influence, being able to choose where to channel their influence.

Solon had been an influential politician, diplomat and creator of laws. We’re told by Plato that he retrieved the story of Atlantis from an Egyptian priest during a visit, for the function of a Poem he didn’t get around to writing.

Assumably this story was passed down through members of the family in the intervening century between Solon’s death and Critias’ birth. It is also highly plausible that Solon had written notes which were retained and available to be read by Plato.

Socrates is not as directly relevant to the account but he plays a role in encouraging Plato’s intellectual endeavours. He is 42 years Plato’s elder, had served as a Hoplite in the Peloponnesian War and had also been a good friend of Critias, which left him slightly ostracised by popular society after the brief rise and fall of the Thirty Tyrants.

These are the events that surrounded the account; the defeat of Persia and the release of Spartan rule narrowly prevented Athens from losing her sovereignty. Instead, Plato was able to establish his Academy and foster a culture favouring knowledge, ideas and history.

Atlantis is widely regarded as a myth because its story comes only from Plato, there is no archaeological evidence to support its existence, and its message resembles that of a moral legend.

~10,000 BC: Runoff from glacial melting begins to raise sea levels over a period of hundreds of years. Villages and settlements close to the ocean shore were likely inundated and lost under hundreds of meters of sea water. The collective human memory of this event may have been the origin of "Great Flood" stories in nearly every human civilization, and may have eventually inspired the myth of Atlantis.

~9660 BC: Plato wrote in "Timeus" that the island continent of Atlantis existed about this time, "... situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles".

~6100 BC: About this time, the land area known as "Doggerland", between England and Denmark, is devastated by a sudden sea level rise due to a tsunami from the Storegga Slide. This is one of the many possible explanations for the origin of Plato's "Atlantis" myth.

~5600 BC: Approximated date of possible Black Sea inundation; this alleged event is one of the many possible explanations for the origin of Plato's "Atlantis" myth. The Mediterranean Sea, swollen by melted glaciers, breached a natural dam that separated it from the fresh water lake later known as the Black Sea. Sea water from the Mediterranean poured in for as long as 2 years.

~1650 to ~1625 BC: The volcano Thera (now known as Santorini) in the Aegean Sea, erupted. The explosion of Thera about this time released energy equal to 200,000 H-bombs. One of the many possible explanations for the origin of Plato's "Atlantis" myth.

~0630 BC: Birth of Solon, in Athens, Greece. Modern knowledge of Solon is limited by the fact that his works only survive in fragments and appear to feature interpolations by later authors and by the general paucity of documentary and archaeological evidence covering Athens in the early 6th century BC.

~0564 BC: A character in two of Plato's dialogues, "Timaeus" and "Critias", claims Solon visited Neith's temple at Sais about this time and received from the priests there an account of the history of Atlantis.

~0560 BC: Death of Solon, in Cyprus, Greece. The few spurious pages that have turned out to be the very words of Solon -- The Memoirs of Solon -- made no mention of Atlantis.

0427 BC: Birth of Plato, a Classical Greek philosopher, mathematician, student of Socrates, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens -- the first institution of higher learning in the Western world. Along with his mentor, Socrates, and his student, Aristotle, Plato helped to lay the foundations of Western philosophy and science.

0373 BC: Destruction of Helike; one of the many possible explanations for the origin of Plato's "Atlantis" myth.

~0360 BC: Plato writes "Timeus" and "Criteus", mentioning the alleged destruction of mythical Atlantis. He claimed that an Egyptian priest confided information about Atlantis to Solon, the Athenian legislator, whose memoirs Plato claimed to have read.

0347 BC: Plato (b.0427 BC), the most distinguished student of Socrates, dies at the age of 80. His real name was Aristocles. "Plato" meant "broad" and he was known to have broad shoulders. He was a prolific writer and considered by some as the most important of all Greek philosophers. His works were all in dialogue form and include: the "Apology", the "Symposium", the "Phaedo", the "Phaedrus", and the "Republic".

~0800 AD: Heracleion was submerged by the sea and sands. Heracleion, also known as Thonis, was an ancient Egyptian city near Alexandria. It was known as early as the 12th century BC but its importance grew during the waning days of the pharaohs, the late period. Herakleion was Egypt's main port in the time of the pharaohs. It was famous because it was believed that Helen of Troy and Hercules had visited the city, and that the city had even gained its name from Hercules. There was also a large temple dedicated to the Greek hero at the city center. Pharaoh Nectanebo I made many additions to the temple in the 4th century BC The city sank in the 6th or 7th century A.D., probably due to major earthquakes and floods. Some believers in the Atlantis myth have claimed that Plato actually [i]predicted[/i] this event in his books "Timeus" and "Criteus". The ruins submerged in the sea were finally located and rediscovered by the French underwater archaeologist Franck Goddio in 2000.

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Since about 800 AD, much speculation concerning the Atlantis Myth has occurred, with no valid physical evidence to 'prove' the existence of Atlantis.

Does anyone know of some good AI models that don’t have censorship? The big ones (Claude and ChatGPT) don’t seem to like alternative archaeological theories and questions.