u/nikolinni

Hey! You seated comfortably? Got your bag of pork rinds and/or sandwich?

Greeeeeat!

So let's talk about AI. This one is specifically towards any fic writers that are using AI to generate their fics. Namely those who are generating entire fics with AI, or using the AI to largely generate their ideas, character arcs, etc.

Though you non-AI users can also stick around, this might give you some more firepower to use.

To bring y'all up to speed, it's been found recently that if you copy/paste text from Claude (and indeed even other LLMs it seems like), and into AO3's Rich Text Editor, there's leftover code from Claude that you can then use Inspect Elements to search for. There's even a skin for AO3 now that turns the screen red if the code is detected.

Inb4 you think you're slick and clean that code somehow, be careful, because other LLMs have their own sneaky ways of signaling it's AI generated -- Gemini has SynthID, for example. And no, "cleaning" the code out won't get rid of SynthID.

So, AI fic writers, let's have a chat. I'm not gonna moral grandstand, or judge, or call you lazy, or do any of that crap.

Look, I can get it, right? Let me guess a few reasons why: it's faster, maybe you think it's more efficient, or that its prose is better than yours, or it can pace better than you, put the puzzle pieces of the story better, etc. You can go from an idea to a few chapters written in the span of what, an hour? And hey! You got fans on AO3! Clearly what you're doing is good enough?

So let me hit you with this: In Donald Maas' The Fire In Fiction, he begins by talking about two types of writers he notices (Maas owns a publishing company, you see). You have the storyteller and the status seeker.

The storyteller is driven by the innate desire to write. To tell stories. They do like to get the likes, the book deals, the money. But all that's secondary to that desire to tell stories; all just a means to an end, the end being I want, no NEED to tell stories. They want to tell stories the best they can. And if their craft needs work, they hop to it, because better theory and craft mean better stories.

The status seeker, on the other hand, only wants fame. Writing is a means to an end for them. They don't care about craft, or theory, or symbolism. Unless it feeds into them getting fame. If their story needs work, they do the bare minimum to get it sufficient enough. They're floaters.

So, much like Maas does at the end of that intro, I ask which one you are. I won't make assumptions. This is for you to stop and think about. Why are you having the AI do all of the heavy lifting of writing for you? Be honest with yourself.

Now, if you're a storyteller, drop the LLM and learn how to write on your own, goddammit.

I can hear it now -- "Tara! You said you won't judge!" I'm not! Hear my hope me out.

No matter what you think, and this is speaking as someone who entered the lion's den and experimented with LLMs themself, AI will ALWAYS be second best to a human writer. Even if it seems shaper, smarter, brighter, newer, it's second best. Sure it can churn out a chapter faster than any human alive can, but I personally believe that, when matched up with even a mid tier writer, the writer has better command of craft and theory than the AI can even hope to have.

LLMs are tools. They're not do it all quick done machines, no matter what those dumbass AI bros will tell you. And if you don't know theory and craft, then you don't even know if those tools are telling YOUR story the best it can be told! But all that takes time to learn, you say.

Well shucks, that's life. Anything worth doing will take time. but let me tell you, dear AI Fic writer, that if you commit yourself to learning theory and craft, then anything you write when you put finger to keyboard will straight up BLOW an AI's generated material out of the water. Yes that's right, YOU who may doubt your own ability to bring your ideas to reality can learn how to do it and outclass an LLM's story any day of the week and twice on Sinsmas.

No, you don't need to be like Uncle-Aunt Tara and get a fancy BA in English (with an option in creative writing). Just get some books on writing. The Fire in Fiction and Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maas are great and filled with tons of good examples. Characters and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card is a EXCELLENT starting point for learning what you need to about creating, developing, and managing characters. You also got Alice LaPlante's The Making of a Story.

Find books on writing. Read them. Do it however you have to, I don't care. But for the love of all that is holy and unholy, if you're like me and you want to tell the best damn stories you can, learn that craft and theory. Write your fiction with your own two hands. Do your characters and concepts proud.

Yes your first few stories might suck. That's okay! We've all been there! But that's how you get better, honestly. You write it out, read it and go "hmm. Okay for next time, I'll try this and that".

But let me tell ya buddy, when you come up with awesome characters, thrilling scenes, and twists that even surprise you....when you come up with a moment for your character where you start feeling so bad for them you cry with them...

...An AI can only DREAM it can give you that experience.

Hey! You seated comfortably? Got your bag of pork rinds and/or sandwich?

Greeeeeat!

So let's talk about AI. This one is specifically towards any fic writers that are using AI to generate their fics. Namely those who are generating entire fics with AI, or using the AI to largely generate their ideas, character arcs, etc.

Though you non-AI users can also stick around, this might give you some more firepower to use.

To bring y'all up to speed, it's been found recently that if you copy/paste text from Claude (and indeed even other LLMs it seems like), and into AO3's Rich Text Editor, there's leftover code from Claude that you can then use Inspect Elements to search for. There's even a skin for AO3 now that turns the screen red if the code is detected.

Inb4 you think you're slick and clean that code somehow, be careful, because other LLMs have their own sneaky ways of signaling it's AI generated -- Gemini has SynthID, for example. And no, "cleaning" the code out won't get rid of SynthID.

So, AI fic writers, let's have a chat. I'm not gonna moral grandstand, or judge, or call you lazy, or do any of that crap.

Look, I can get it, right? Let me guess a few reasons why: it's faster, maybe you think it's more efficient, or that its prose is better than yours, or it can pace better than you, put the puzzle pieces of the story better, etc. You can go from an idea to a few chapters written in the span of what, an hour? And hey! You got fans on AO3! Clearly what you're doing is good enough?

So let me hit you with this: In Donald Maas' The Fire In Fiction, he begins by talking about two types of writers he notices (Maas owns a publishing company, you see). You have the storyteller and the status seeker.

The storyteller is driven by the innate desire to write. To tell stories. They do like to get the likes, the book deals, the money. But all that's secondary to that desire to tell stories; all just a means to an end, the end being I want, no NEED to tell stories. They want to tell stories the best they can. And if their craft needs work, they hop to it, because better theory and craft mean better stories.

The status seeker, on the other hand, only wants fame. Writing is a means to an end for them. They don't care about craft, or theory, or symbolism. Unless it feeds into them getting fame. If their story needs work, they do the bare minimum to get it sufficient enough. They're floaters.

So, much like Maas does at the end of that intro, I ask which one you are. I won't make assumptions. This is for you to stop and think about. Why are you having the AI do all of the heavy lifting of writing for you? Be honest with yourself.

Now, if you're a storyteller, drop the LLM and learn how to write on your own, goddammit.

I can hear it now -- "Tara! You said you won't judge!" I'm not! Hear my hope me out.

No matter what you think, and this is speaking as someone who entered the lion's den and experimented with LLMs themself, AI will ALWAYS be second best to a human writer. Even if it seems shaper, smarter, brighter, newer, it's second best. Sure it can churn out a chapter faster than any human alive can, but I personally believe that, when matched up with even a mid tier writer, the writer has better command of craft and theory than the AI can even hope to have.

LLMs are tools. They're not do it all quick done machines, no matter what those dumbass AI bros will tell you. And if you don't know theory and craft, then you don't even know if those tools are telling YOUR story the best it can be told! But all that takes time to learn, you say.

Well shucks, that's life. Anything worth doing will take time. but let me tell you, dear AI Fic writer, that if you commit yourself to learning theory and craft, then anything you write when you put finger to keyboard will straight up BLOW an AI's generated material out of the water. Yes that's right, YOU who may doubt your own ability to bring your ideas to reality can learn how to do it and outclass an LLM's story any day of the week and twice on Sinsmas.

No, you don't need to be like Uncle-Aunt Tara and get a fancy BA in English (with an option in creative writing). Just get some books on writing. The Fire in Fiction and Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maas are great and filled with tons of good examples. Characters and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card is a EXCELLENT starting point for learning what you need to about creating, developing, and managing characters. You also got Alice LaPlante's The Making of a Story.

Find books on writing. Read them. Do it however you have to, I don't care. But for the love of all that is holy and unholy, if you're like me and you want to tell the best damn stories you can, learn that craft and theory. Write your fiction with your own two hands. Do your characters and concepts proud.

Yes your first few stories might suck. That's okay! We've all been there! But that's how you get better, honestly. You write it out, read it and go "hmm. Okay for next time, I'll try this and that".

But let me tell ya buddy, when you come up with awesome characters, thrilling scenes, and twists that even surprise you....when you come up with a moment for your character where you start feeling so bad for them you cry with them...

...An AI can only DREAM it can give you that experience.

Finally got my invite, so what I've got so far has been uploaded -- and received updates as well!

I'm super excited to work on this fic, as anyone who's had the misfortune of hearing me ramble on and on about it can tell you.

But I'm also curious to hear what y'all have to say about it, too! Valentino -- or "Val" in this AU fic -- is a huge part of this story, and if I can't get him right, then there goes the concept.

Even though he's an AU version that isn't quite 100% like his Hazbin self, I'm still going for an angle where you can see the seeds of his Hazbin self. Where some of his negative traits are already on display, and carry that feeling that, if things go wrong for him, he'll turn more and more into darkness, potentially becoming the villain in Hazbin we all love (or love to hate).

And oh boy.

Do they ever.

Never threaten to take away control and love from someone desperate to have both. I'm not quite there in the story yet, but we're getting close to seeing those first chips.

And while it is a retelling of Phantom of the Opera (hence my flair, a pipe organ features in the soundtrack), you don't have to have watched any form of it to follow along. It'll be a neat bonus if you do, and I hope I'm able to do more than just have the Hellaverse cast mime beats from the play.

If there's anything else you feel that's worth pointing out, please let me know! I wanna work on this as best I can to make something that's really good!

Thank y'all in advance. I really dig this subreddit, y'all seem chill.

My noggin got joggin the other day when writing my fanfic [shameless plug #1], as Valentino, or "Val" in the fic, uses different voices. He does it primarily to play up to whatever role or impression he needs. For now he has two main "voices", and I stopped and thought:

Huh, I've never had to consider what his "normal" voice sounds like; he hasn't used it yet. Wait a sec...

....have we actually heard Valentino's "true voice" in the series proper? We've heard how he talks around other characters, including a video audience (the drawing tutorial video). We've heard bits and pieces of his singing voice, such as in S1's "Finale" and in S2's "When We Get Up There".

But then we get "When I Think About the Future". And his voice sounds....different. Like yes is melodramatic as all get out, but...it's also noticeably different. The accent is different, far more pronounced, and his singing tone is...not wholly different, but noticeable; it's like we're seeing a different side of him. Which yeah, that's sort of "the point", we're seeing a more vulnerable Valentino. But hold that note.

Velvette comes out and he does a whiplash with his voice, going back to being the Valentino we've been seeing.

So what's the point? Well, we see that Angel Dust wears different masks in the show, mostly in S1, and by S2, he's put that away, at least when in the hotel. For him, it's his behavior, such as being snarky, or playing up to the porn star persona that's overly sexual and boundary pushing.

There's a lot of head canons about Valentino and what his own psychological problems may be. If it's a case of "abused becomes abuser, continues cycle", then Val's own abuse most likely led to him wearing masks and trying to play a persona. For all we know, that sexed up way he carries himself and dresses may be a mask. His own voice may be a mask! We may have gotten a peek at the "true Valentino" in his part of When I Think About the Future.

I'm on the "true voice" concept so much that when Val drops his personas in my fic [shameless plug #2], his singing voice sounds like how it did in When I Think About the Future. And the two main "voices" he uses is more than just him setting an impression: these are masks too. Signals of what persona he's playing. We don't get to hear Val's "true singing voice" until a particular moment when he gets emotionally overwhelmed and his other two masks can't hide it even from himself. (If you know Phantom of the Opera you can probably guess the scene).

Just something I was thinking about. The idea of different ways of talking and voices and even singing as a mask. Because I don't think we've really seen a character in Hazbin Hotel that's had such two noticeably "different" singing voices like Valentino. Especially given how characters are in-universe singing, and that music/singing appears to have real power in the Hellaverse.

Either that or I'm reading into things way too much. Who knows!

Decided to share more of the story I'm working on. Very much a WIP! But this is THE moment, where Valentino (or "Val", in this story) finally appears to Angel. For context, Val, known only to Angel as "Angel of Music", has been tutoring Angel in the performing arts, acting as "guide and guardian" and even a confidant for him. They always met in secret, but Angel only ever heard his voice.

Until now. This follows a massive performance that Angel nailed, his first starring role at the Palais de L'Amour, and long lost lover Husk attempts to whisk Angel away for a night on the town...

Please let me know what you think! This is an iconic moment in Phantom of the Opera, where both Christine and the audience first see the phantom physically. So if there's one scene to just nail for the opening chapters, it's this one.

>Husk only smiled, as if he felt Angel was lost in a fantasy. “Then I won’t keep ya out too late.”

>“Husk…”

>“Look, I’ll call up a nice, private car. Nothin’ too flashy. You get changed. I’ll get the car..” He opened the door and stepped through it, looking back at Angel. “See you around, kid.”

>He shut the door.

>Angel felt the temperature in the room change in an instant. The darkness around him grew. Shivers made his fur stand up on end. The voice of the Angel of Music rung out, not with that gentle etherealness, but a deep, commanding, baritone strike. It seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere at once.

>“Insolent BOY this slave of fashion, basking in your glory!”

>Angel put his arms around himself, looking down.

>“Ignorant FOOL this brave young suitor! Sharing in my triumph!”

>Angel stood up from his seat, and looked at the mirror in the room. It was a huge mirror, full body, and extravagant, mounted firmly to the wall. “Angel of Music, I’m sorry! Forgive me! I didn’t…wasn’t gonna run out on you! I mean it! Husk just…” he placed a hand on the mirror. “He doesn’t understand you, your music, your magic, your majesty…”

>The voice softened, taking on its former ethereal dream-like quality.

>“You are flattering Angelito. The time has come…”

>Angel’s heart began to beat faster. “You’ll stay by my side? You’re my guide, my guardian. Please!”

>“You shall see why I live in a world of music and shadows. Angel! Look at your face in the mirror! I am there inside!”

>Angel couldn’t believe his eyes. His breath hitched as his own reflection in the mirror warped and transformed. The mirror turned translucent.

>A vision appeared in the mirror.

>He was a grand figure, ten feet tall. He had on a vibrant red cloak, with a a dark purple wide-brimmed fedora, titled to obscure part of his face. The cloak had a thick fluffy, fuzzy collar, adorned with hearts. His body was covered in fuzzy purple fur, and cerise eyes looked back at him.

>What caught Angel’s attention more was the mask.

>Over the left side of the figure’s face was a white porcelain mask. A large pink heart outlined in glittering gold was around the eye. Various strips and curls of gold adorned the rest of the mask.

>“It’s you!” Angel exclaimed, pressing firmer against the mirror as he left reality behind. “The Angel of Music! Please, don’t hide anymore in the dark! I’m ready to see you, to meet you soul to soul!”

>A slow, mechanical hiss was heard as the glass on the mirror slid open like a secret vault. Thick pink fog billowed out from the passage on the other side of the mirror as if it were water escaping a dam. The fog had a sweet, pleasurable. Powerful, potent, it enveloped Angel in the presence of the figure, as if he was being wrapped in his arms.

>A black-gloved hand came from within the cloak, and waved at the door before reached down towards Angel. The towering figure began to sing, his voice layered over the echoes of the room, a charming smile breaking on his face.

>“I am your Angel of Music…Come to me Angel of Music…”

>Angel stepped blindly into the fog, transfixed on meeting the mentor who lifted him from the nightmare of his past and into the dream of the present.

>“I am your Angel of Music…Come to me Angel of Music…”

>Suddenly, from the surface world, the door handle jiggled. It was locked. Husk called out from the other side. “Kid? KID! Who’s that other voice in there? Hey, kid!”

>“I am your Angel of Music…Come to me Angel of Music…”

>“Kid! Legs! What’s going on in there?! Angel? Angel!?”

>

>Angel lifted his trembling hand, closed his eyes and ears to the outside world, and placed it within the waiting hand of the phantom.

Did a bit of writing, finally, getting a very rough chapter 1 done. I do have a prologue finished as well.

Here's a short preview that shows Angel Dust interacting with an "Angel of Music" -- our first glimpse at the role Val plays.

If this seems like it might not be the Val you're expecting -- well, this is a Val that's still damaged from his own trauma, but hasn't quite become his canonical full til Hazbin self. He's also trying to play a persona here.

Shoot man I'm just excited to share this project lol.

>Later that day, Angel had made his way to an old, almost abandoned part of the theater. He was in an old dressing room, seated before a mirror on a vanity dresser. His hair and fur had gotten ruffled from all the excitement. He stared into his eyes, one being black with a pinkish red iris, the other being a yellowish color with a pinkish red iris. He could never quite place his finger on it, but something about his mismatched eyes always seemed off to him. 

>He heard the door shut. A voice, hidden in the shadows, called out to him.  

>“Angel…angel…my little Angel Dust…you are late, yes you are…” It was an ethereal voice. Light, playful, as if it came from a dream. Yet it carried a haunted, firm edge to it.  

>Angel squeezed his upper hands together. “Ah, shoot, ya know me, Music, I’m always on time for our meetings, it’s just….” He spoke with a Brooklyn accent, a distinct Italian-American tinge to it.  

>“Music, little Angel?”  

>“Oh, right, umm…Angel of Music.”  

>The voice seemed to smile. “There you go. Now…you seemed a bit out of time during rehearsal today. Is something amiss, my dear little Angel?”  

>A hair brush that was tied to the vanity by a black ribbon seemed to lift itself up, and gently, gingerly brushed Angel’s hair, causing his eyes to flutter somewhat.  

>“I ah…I was worried. ‘Bout the new owners an’ all. I mean, ya told me ‘bout ‘em. But seein’ ‘em, that imp and that owl…”  

>“You are fair to be worried. They are the most unusual pairing. I have expectations for the Goetia Prince. He seems to care about the arts. The shorter one…perhaps he’ll have his use.”  

>The brushing continued. “You should learn to comb your hair properly, little Angel. To be able to groom oneself is important if you wish to achieve your dreams of taking center stage.”  

>Angel gave a mischievous smirk. “Yea, but if I learn that, then how’s ya gonna brush my hair? It’s so…nice when ya do it. So relaxing and gentle and…warm.” 

>Again, the voice seemed to smile. Angel couldn’t see who the voice belonged to, but something in him just knew. “You are flattering, little Angel. Very flattering.”