u/silversedits

Would he have grown it to some extent by the time of the forging of the Rings of Power in the middle of the Second Age (c. S.A. 1590)?

How long does it take for an Elf to reach that part of their life cycle where they can grow one?

(For the sake of this discussion I am going off the proposal that Círdan was born at sometime between YT. 1050-1105 in Cuiviénen).

Didn't Mahtan have a beard way back in Valinor at the time of the Trees? Though his family does seem to have an excess of testosterone to spare, given that his daughter's name partly meant 'large, strong man'... No idea if that would have actually sped up his beard growing ability though.

I've always wondered, considering that both Belegost and Nogrod were abandoned at the beginning of the Second Age (after the War of Wrath), and that the Broadbeams and Firebeards went to Khazad-dûm and 'swelled its numbers', how are there still seven 'Dwarf-kings of old' when Sauron distributes the Rings of Power?

We know that four additional houses of the Dwarves presumably still live in the east/Orocarni, and that the Longbeards were the original occupants and the rulers of Khazad-dûm, but that only amounts to five total locations at the time the Rings of Power were given.

Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (in The Silmarillion) states that there were 'Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old' which grew likely from the greed that accompanied the wearer of each ring. I very much doubt the original rulers of Belegost and Nogrod continued to be great Dwarf-kings themselves if they then only lived in Durin's kingdom of Khazad Dûm, and the text greatly implies that these aforementioned hoards are in seven separate locations. So where are the remaining two?

It is said elsewhere that some Dwarves continued to live in the Ered Luin for many years, so could the two kings have remained here as well? It seems unlikely, as they are never mentioned as great Dwarf kingdoms again.

Another option is that the two other kings may not have been the Broadbeams/Firebeards at all and may have been break-away clans from other Dwarf houses (I think this is more likely). A strong contender for one of these locations is in the Iron Hills. We know from The Peoples of Middle-earth that the Iron Hills were actually settled by Durin's Folk back in the First Age, (and additionally populated in the early Second Age by some Broadbeams/Firebeards after the War of Wrath - NoME). However, a counter to this is that the Iron Hills have always seemed to be more of a vassal state to Khazad-Dûm (and later Erebor) rather than operating as a kingdom within themselves, but perhaps I've misjudged this.

As for a final location to complete the Seven Dwarf Hoards, perhaps there was a break-away group from one of the four eastern clans? Or perhaps it was the settlement of Durin's Folk we know was at Mount Gundabad shortly before it was sacked by Orcs after the destruction of Eregion? It could also have possibly been a settlement in the Grey Mountains shortly before the same thing happened. Though both these latter options would have the same issue as the Iron Hills in not being a 'true kingdom' themselves, and rather being vassals to the King of Khazad-dûm.

Alternatively, others may have noticed that Belegost appears on Karen Wynn Fonstad's Second Age map, and may think that it therefore continued on well into the years of the Second Age. I believe this has been largely disproven and the change of location (to be further south in the Ered Luin) is also a relic from an outdated Tolkien map sketch, but if not, then it could indeed be a possible location for a remaining King and resulting Dwarf Hoard.

Let me know if you think I've missed anything, I really want to dig further into this.

You can totally call me out for just observing the butterfly effect playing out here, but I want to talk about the ramifications of Orodreth sparing Celegorm and Curufin, and then banishing them from Nargothrond rather than ending them there and then.

To me the main points of interest are Angrist, Curufin's dagger that Beren uses to cut the Silmaril, and of course Huan the Hound.

Without the two brothers being specifically sent away, they do not encounter Beren and Lúthien again, Huan doesn't get his chance to finally change sides and save the couple, and Beren never receives the Dwarven dagger that is tough enough to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's Iron Crown. The quest would come to naught.

You could take it a step further and say that without the Silmaril, Eärendil would never have made it to the bay of Eldamar, and no help would come from the west. So much would have been different.

I'm not saying Orodreth could have foreseen any of this, but rather I think that it's yet another example from Tolkien about how pity/mercy on our enemies can produce interesting outcomes that might even help ourselves and those we care about in some unforeseen way.

Orodreth understandably gets a bad reputation for his flakiness, his lack of agency (typically), and for being puppeted by Túrin during his stay at Nargothrond. However at this moment, I think he made a great call.

You can totally call me out for just observing the butterfly effect playing out here, but I want to talk about the ramifications of Orodreth sparing Celegorm and Curufin, and then banishing them from Nargothrond rather than ending them there and then.

To me the main points of interest are Angrist, Curufin's dagger that Beren uses to cut the Silmaril, and of course Huan the Hound.

Without the two brothers being specifically sent away, they do not encounter Beren and Lúthien again, Huan doesn't get his chance to finally change sides and save the couple, and Beren never receives the Dwarven dagger that is tough enough to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's Iron Crown. The quest would come to naught.

You could take it a step further and say that without the Silmaril, Eärendil would never have made it to the bay of Eldamar, and no help would come from the west. So much would have been different.

I'm not saying Orodreth could have foreseen any of this, but rather I think that it's yet another example from Tolkien about how pity/mercy on our enemies can produce interesting outcomes that might even help ourselves and those we care about in some unforeseen way.

Orodreth understandably gets a bad reputation for his flakiness, his lack of agency (typically), and for being puppeted by Túrin during his stay at Nargothrond. However at this moment, I think he made a great call.

I've been reading The Silmarillion for the first time and I've been doing it chronologically along with the expanded material from the 'Athrabeth' (Morgoth's Ring), 'Beren and Lúthien', 'The Children of Húrin', the last (Unfinished Tales) version of 'The Fall of Gondolin', and 'The Wanderings of Húrin' (from The War of the Jewels). I'm now almost done with the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and I'm then going to read 'The Fall of Númenor' and all other Second Age material chronologically as much as I can.

So far it's completely blown my mind and I am in awe.

I have never read LotR before (as when I found out about the Silmarillion, I just had to go there first!) and I am excited to see how it all fits together. Other than just reading The Hobbit again (I read it as a kid), do you have any recommendations for what else I could read before LotR to get the absolute most out of it? I'm eager to read the histories of the Second and Third Ages before starting The Hobbit and LotR, as I'm aware they take place at the end of the Third Age. Any help is much appreciated!

(I'm a bit of a nutter with chronology as you can tell)

Ar-Pharazon most likely knew the legend that his ancestor Tuor was given immortality and became one of the Eldar after sailing into the west. Could this be yet another reason Ar-Pharazon sought it for himself in the west? Perhaps another reason that Sauron would have convinced him it was his birthright.

For those Elves that saw the light of the Two Trees, then died, and are later re-embodied (after their waiting period in the halls of Mandos and also after the destruction of the Trees) do their eyes still retain the light? Do we think it’s something that their fëa (spirit) keeps, or is it lost with the destruction of their old hröa (body/house)?