r/TheSilmarillion

Belegost and Nogrod were two of the original dwarf kingdoms and both played crucial roles in the First Age, for better or worse.

I know that the novel is primarily an account of the Elves, but the Dwarves were always my favourite of the species in Tolkien’s world. and Tolkien dropped some fascinating breadcrumbs for us in the book. Like, how did that conversation go when the Dwarves of Nogrod demanded Belegost’s assistance in their big quest for revenge and were rejected? Did the dwarves of Nogrod fight alongside the Elves during the War of Wrath? Who was Azaghal?

I always imagined it as an island, because to me it makes more sense as a banishment. And now I noticed that on fan made maps it is just in Aman. Although I am not sure how correct they are, since many put Formenos almost in the middle of Valinor instead of the North?

Tolkien's 1937 manuscript Quenta Silmarillion famously ended with a prophecy by Mandos, describing the event called Dagor Dagorath. It's basically a Ragnarok of sorts, where Morgoth returns through the Door of the Night, beginning a new and devastating war for world dominance, unlike anything which had previously been seen. The Valar will make war upon Morgoth once more, with Tulkas personally fighting Morgoth with the aid of Eonwe and a resurrected Turin Turambar. According to the prophecy, it will be Turin who deals Morgoth his death-blow, finally avenging all the evil works done to the Edain.

The prophecy goes on to say: "Thereafter shall the Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Feanor shall surrender them willingly. Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Valar will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."

Now, Christopher Tolkien removed Dagor Dagorath from The Silmarillion during the editing process, so aside from a few allusions here and there, it has mostly been erased from the books.

All the same, I still consider it to be the canonical conclusion to Tolkien's writings. It is the ultimate epilogue, not just for Turin's story, but for the story of Middle-Earth in general.

There’s been a lot of discussion recently about the Doom and about how Beren, Thingol, Dior and Elwing were justified in wanting/keeping the Silmaril, because it eventually led to Eärendil managing to get through the barriers that the Valar had erected around Valinor to keep that pesky, inconvenient war out and convincing the Valar to do their jobs. 

But that was not why they did what they did. There is no indication whatsoever that Beren, Thingol, Dior and Elwing thought that keeping the Silmaril was necessary to fulfil some Doom and to save the world from Morgoth; instead, it’s clear that they all coveted the Silmaril at least in part for inherently selfish reasons. 

Thingol (and Melian) 

Fundamentally, Thingol sets Beren the impossible task of bringing him a Silmaril because he sees is as an easy and clean way to murder Beren (see here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/84134861), but he certainly also wants the Silmaril. Melian disapproves, of course. 

Lay of Leithian 

Thingol says to Beren, “A treasure dear I too desire, but rocks and steel and Morgoth’s fire from all the powers of Elfinesse do keep the jewel I would possess.”  (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 1128–1131) 

Melian repeatedly disapproves, and eventually tells Thingol: “Yet if mine eyes lose not their power, ’twere well for thee that Beren failed his errantry.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 1191–1194) Thingol obviously ignores her. 

Sketch of the Mythology 

The Sketch only has a few words to say about why Thingol demands a Silmaril from Beren: “To win her Thingol, in mockery, requires a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.” (HoME IV, p. 24) For details, it refers to the Lay of Leithian (see above).

However, Thingol’s selfishness becomes clear later, when Maedhros tries to organise a united front against Morgoth: “Thingol will not send from Doriath. Some say out of selfish policy, others because of the wisdom of Melian and of fate which decreed that Doriath should become the only refuge of the Eldar from Morgoth afterwards. Part was certainly due to the Silmaril, which Thingol now possessed, and which Maidros had demanded with haughty words.” (HoME IV, p. 26, fn omitted) That is Thingol doesn’t want to get involved in fighting Morgoth because the Sons of Fëanor, who have mostly been running the war for centuries, want their property back. Note that this has nothing to do with Celegorm and Curufin, by the way: at this point in the textual development, they’re the founders of Nargothrond and Celegorm offers to help Lúthien. There’s no reason for ill-will here, it’s literally just Thingol wanting to keep the Silmaril. 

Quenta Noldorinwa  

The QN is perfectly explicit about Thingol’s motivation: it’s killing Beren, full stop: “But Thingol was wroth and he dismissed him in scorn, but did not slay him because he had sworn an oath to his daughter. But he desired nonetheless to send him to his death. And he thought in his heart of a quest that could not be achieved, and he said: If thou bring me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth, I will let Lúthien wed thee, if she will.” (HoME IV, p. 109) 

But again, Thingol’s greed becomes apparent later, when Maedhros tries to form his Union against Morgoth: “From Doriath none came [fn: changed to: From Doriath too came scanty aid]. For Maidros and his brethren had before sent unto Doriath and reminded Thingol with exceedingly haughty words of their oath, and summoned him to yield up the Silmaril. This Melian counselled him to do, and maybe he would have done, but their words were overproud, and he thought how the jewel had been gained by the sorrows of Thingol’s people, [fn: Added here: and the anguish of Lúthien] and despite the crooked deeds of the sons of Fëanor; and greed [fn: greed > covetice] too, it may be, had some part in the heart of Thingol, as afterwards was shown. Wherefore he sent the messengers of Maidros back in scorn.” (HoME IV, p. 116, 120, fn omitted) 

So now the Nargothrond debacle and the role of Celegorm and Curufin has appeared, but still, Melian expressly tells Thingol to return the Silmaril to its rightful owners, and Thingol doesn’t want to do it not only because he doesn’t like said rightful owners, but also because of his greed/covetice. Covetice basically refers to the excessive desire to possess something belonging to another person. 

Later, when the Dwarves steal the Silmaril and Beren recovers it and Lúthien wears it, Melian again tells Beren and Lúthien that it’s lunacy: “Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril.” (HoME IV, p. 134)

Obviously nobody listens to Melian. Whyever would Melian’s husband, son-in-law and daughter listen to her, a Maia who sang the universe into existence?  

Quenta Silmarillion 

When Thingol demands a Silmaril as Lúthien’s bride-price, Melian immediately tells Thingol: “O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.” (Sil, QS, ch. 19) That is, she warned Thingol from the start that the whole Silmaril business would end badly for Thingol and Doriath, and Thingol obviously perseveres anyway, because he (just like anyone else in the family) is allergic to listening to Melian. 

Melian keeps telling Thingol to return the Silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor later on: “From Doriath came little help. For Maidros and his brethren, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield to them the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender the jewel, and perchance he would have done so, but their words were proud and threatening, and he was wroth, thinking of the anguish of Lúthien and the blood of Beren whereby the jewel had been won, despite the malice of Celegorn and Curufin. And every day that he looked upon the jewel, the more his heart desired to keep it for ever. Such was its power. Therefore he sent back the messengers of Maidros with scornful words.” (HoME V, p. 308)

That is, Thingol’s reasons for not returning the Silmaril to its rightful owners are (1) stealing it was really hard for Beren and Lúthien (hey, remember why they had to go through all that trouble in the first place, my guy?), and (2) the Silmaril is really shiny and pretty and it’s my birthday, my love, and I wants it. 

The published QS then further highlights Thingol’s greed and selfish behaviour: “For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.” (Sil, QS, ch. 22) Note that this was written by Christopher Tolkien (AR, p. 210), although it fits the late text Concerning the Hoard very well (see below). 

Tale of Years 

Unlike in later versions, the Dwarves that kill Thingol don’t manage to take off with the Silmaril; instead, Melian escapes during the fighting and takes the Nauglamír and the Silmaril to Beren and Lúthien before leaving Middle-earth and returning to Valinor (HoME XI, p. 347, 350). It’s unclear why anyone does anything in this text, though, since it’s extremely concise, without stated motivations for anything. 

Grey Annals 

Again Thingol’s main goal in setting the bride-price of Lúthien at a Silmaril is killing Beren: “Beren was brought before King Thingol, who scorned him, and desiring to send him to death, said to him in mockery that he must bring a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth as the bride-price of Lúthien.” (HoME XI, p. 62; see also HoME XI, p. 65) 

Concerning the Hoard 

This is the latest text (1964) that Tolkien wrote about Thingol and his greed wherever jewels and gold are concerned. 

This is what happens when Húrin brings him the treasure of Nargothrond (on which Glaurung had lain): 

“But even as he did so, Thingol looked at the hoard and the dragon-curse began to work upon him, and upon all there who gazed at the treasure. The outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour. Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.
Blood was spilled on either side, but in the end all the outlaws were slain and Thingol then had the treasure locked in a deep chamber. But it gnawed his mind, for the most of the treasure that had been brought from Nargothrond was in gold and silver yet unwrought, and he lusted specially for the silver, thinking what might be done with it. At last in an unhappy hour he sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod. With them he had dealings and some friendship, and long ago they had helped in the building of his grand underground halls and palace.
The Dwarves sent emissaries, and they gazed on the treasure in amazement. After bargaining they agreed to send their best smiths to work at Thingol’s orders but at the price of one tithe of the unwrought metals. The smiths came and laboured long, and among other marvellous works they made the renowned “Necklace of the Dwarves”, of silver, upon which was set in the middle the peerless Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien had won from the Iron Crown of the Dark Lord. But as their work progressed Thingol began to regret the bargain, and in particular he saw that if the tithe was paid in full, not enough would remain for the making of a thing upon which he had now set his spell-distraught heart, a double throne of silver and gems for himself and Melian the Queen.” (Concerning the Hoard) 

Thingol eventually refuses to pay the Dwarves what was promised for their work. The Dwarves leave, plot and then return with an army, which gets into Doriath somehow (it’s unclear why the Girdle of Melian didn’t keep the army out). The Dwarves take the treasure of Nargothrond and also the necklace with the Silmaril. On the way back, Beren routs the Dwarves, takes the necklace, and Lúthien wears the Silmaril until she dies.  

Dior 

The very early text The Nauglafring offers some first information on why Dior also refused to return the Silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor: 

“Now Maidros, whom Melko maimed, was their leader, and he called to his brethren Maglor and Dinithel, and to Damrod and to Celegorm, to Cranthor and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes – but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Melko nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said Maidros, ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’
Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglafring, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglafring unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded win with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘and your hearts be bold enow.’” (HoME II, p. 241)

That is, much like Thingol’s reasoning in the much later Quenta Silmarillion, Dior’s reasons here are: (1) the Nauglafring is too beautiful to remove the Silmaril from it, and (2) stealing the Silmaril was really hard for Beren. 

The Sketch of the Mythology tells us that, “Dior re-established Doriath and grew proud, and wore the ‘Nauglafring’, and the fame of the Silmaril went abroad. After vain bargaining the sons of Fëanor made war on him” (HoME IV, p. 33). So, Dior was likely too proud to return the Silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. 

The Quenta Noldorinwa unfortunately gives us very little: “But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. The sons of Fëanor, when he would not yield the jewel unto them, came upon him with all their host” (HoME IV, p. 134, fn omitted). 

The Earliest Annals of Beleriand and the Later Annals of Beleriand also don’t say much about Dior’s reasoning: in both versions, the Sons of Fëanor send messages to Dior demanding the Silmaril, and in both versions, it seems like they’re ignored by Dior, and that they attack Doriath a year after that, with a battle being fought “on the east marches of Doriath” (HoME IV, p. 307; HoME V, p. 142). 

In both versions, Elwing has the Silmaril, and she’s taken to the Havens by Sindar faithful to Dior: “The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves and taken to Sirion’s mouth, and with them they took the jewel and the necklace.” (HoME IV, p. 307) “The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves, and they fled with her to the mouths of Sirion, and they took with them the jewel and the necklace, and Maidros found it not.” (HoME V, p. 142) 

Tale of Years

This text is substantially the same as the Annals, with the usual prior demand being ignored by Dior and the battle on the marches, with the difference that Elwing flees with her mother Lindis. 

“505 The sons of Fëanor hearing news of the Silmaril that it is in Doriath hold council. Maidros restrains his brethren, but a message is sent to Dior demanding the Jewel. Dior returns no answer.
506 Celegorn inflames the brethren, and they prepare an assault on Doriath. They come up at unawares in winter.
506–507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. […] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.” (HoME XI, p. 351) 

The published QS has this as Dior’s motivation for keeping the Silmaril: “Long did Dior gaze upon the Silmaril, which his father and mother had brought beyond hope out of the terror of Morgoth; and his grief was great that death had come upon them so soon. But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.” (Sil, QS, ch. 22) This was written by Christopher Tolkien (AR, p. 210), but it’s based on the Tale of Years: “mayhap the Silmaril hastened their end, for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.” (HoME XI, p. 348) 

I find it notable that people at this point evidently believe that the Silmaril is dangerous for mortals and shortens their lifespan, but Dior, who is mortal, wears it anyway (and has his daughter wear it, I imagine). Dior’s reasons for keeping it boil down to pride, covetice and remembering his father/parents, even though at this point people are talking about how wearing the Silmaril led to his mother’s early death.  

Elwing 

The Sketch has no information on why Elwing wanted to keep the Silmaril; also note that at this point, this Silmaril’s story basically ends with Elwing throwing it in the sea. Eärendil doesn’t convince the Valar to intervene (instead, Ulmo does), and Eärendil later gets another Silmaril.

This changes in the Quenta Noldorinwa, of which there are two versions: 

• “The dwelling of Elwing at Sirion’s mouth, where still she possessed the Nauglafring and the glorious Silmaril, became known to the sons of Fëanor; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths. But the folk of Sirion would not yield that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which fair Dior had been slain.” (HoME IV, p. 149–150) 
• “Upon the havens of Sirion new woe had fallen. The dwelling of Elwing there, where still she possessed the Nauglafring and the glorious Silmaril, became known unto the remaining sons of Fëanor, Maidros and Maglor and Damrod and Díriel; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths, and messages of friendship and yet stern demand they sent unto Sirion. But Elwing and the folk of Sirion would not yield that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which Dior the Fair was slain; and least of all while Eärendel their lord was in the sea, for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships. […] And yet Maidros gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her child Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of Maidros, and with the Nauglafring upon her breast she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought.” (HoME IV, p. 152–153, fn omitted)

That is, Elwing and her and Eärendil’s people do not want to return the Silmaril when the Sons of Fëanor demand it because: (1) Beren had stolen it, (2) Lúthien had worn it, (3) Dior had died for it, (4) they believed that it kept them in bliss and safe/healed. The last point is rather fascinating because keeping the Silmaril from the Sons of Fëanor is certainly not keeping them safe from the Sons of Fëanor. 

The subsequent Annals texts contain some significant differences from the QN texts. In particular, Maedhros and Maglor’s involvement in the Third Kinslaying dwindles to being present, and Maedhros forswears his oath for fifteen years. More important for present purposes, however, is what both texts have to say about why the people of Sirion didn’t give up the Silmaril when the Sons of Fëanor demanded it: 

• Earliest Annals of Beleriand: 210 “Maidros hears of the upspringing of Sirion’s Haven and that a Silmaril is there, but he forswears his oath.” (HoME IV, p. 308) 225 “Torment of Maidros and his brothers because of their oath. Damrod and Díriel resolve to win the Silmaril if Eärendel will not yield it. […] The folk of Sirion refused to give up the Silmaril in Eärendel’s absence, and they thought their joy and prosperity came of it.” (HoME IV, p. 308)
• Later Annals of Beleriand: “310 [510] Maidros learned of the upspringing of Sirion’s Haven, and that the Silmaril was there, but he forswore his oath.” (HoME V, p. 142) “325 [525] Torment fell upon Maidros and his brethren, because of their unfulfilled oath. Damrod and Díriel resolved to win the Silmaril, if Eärendel would not give it up willingly. […] The folk of Sirion refused to surrender the Silmaril, both because Eärendel was not there, and because they thought that their bliss and prosperity came from the possession of the gem.” (HoME V, p. 143)

That is, the main reason for not wanting to return the Silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor was because Eärendil (who has nothing to do with the Silmaril in the first place) was absent, and because the people believed that the Silmaril brought them “bliss and prosperity” (while Morgoth is ravaging Beleriand).  

Further thoughts 

At no point do any of these people ever desire or keep the Silmaril for higher reasons like knowing the Doom. For Thingol, it starts out as a murder weapon and turns into a greedy, covetous obsession that Melian, who does know enough about the Doom of the Silmaril to know that it will destroy Doriath and her loved ones, hates (he conveniently likes to forget why Beren and Lúthien nearly died to get it for him); for Dior, it’s pride, greed and remembering his father, and (mortal) Dior wears it even though it’s now believed that wearing it will hasten a mortal’s death (serious question, are the Silmarils radioactive?); for Elwing and the people of Sirion, it’s Beren and Lúthien, Dior’s death (at Celegorm’s hands), and believing that the Silmaril made them prosperous and blissful. 

And all of that really begs the question: why on earth didn’t they just spare themselves a ton of trouble by returning the Silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor? All these people know that the Sons of Fëanor swore a magically binding and compulsive oath concerning the Silmaril that now functions as a curse. Why is retaining the stolen jewel of Fëanor more important for Thingol, Dior and Elwing than keeping themselves and their kingdoms/peoples safe from a bunch of warlords who they all know are compelled to take it from them? Why didn’t they just all do what Melian counselled from the start? Why does no one ever listen to the wisest person in Beleriand? Why is Melian doomed to be Cassandra? 

Sources 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV]. 

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion, Douglas Charles Kane, Lehigh University Press 2009 (softcover) [cited as: AR]. 

JRR Tolkien, Concerning the Hoard, image at https://www.jrrtolkien.it/2022/07/04/scoperto-manoscritto-che-cambia-il-silmarillion/ [cited as: Concerning the Hoard].

I mean.

What is more realistic: one of the most powerful Maiar lost to a dog for some unexplainable reason OR one of the most manipulative evil guys pretended to lose to gain something from it?

Just an Age later Sauron does this very thing, pretending to yield to Ar-Pharazon to orchestrate demise of Numenor.

My conspiracy (not sure what is the better word for it) theory is that Sauron actually was able to get information that Beren and Luthien were after Silmaril, and got tired of Morgoth and his desire of destruction instead of order, and so was glad to let Luthien loose on Morgoth. (Sadly for everyone she never planned on trying to kill him).

This would explain why Sauron kept Beren alive, "lost" to just an animal and was never mentioned working for Morgoth again.

And overall it would fit to Sauron's character and lore better.

Share your conspiracy theories with me.

Hello, I've read the Nature of Middle-earth many times to learn more about elven ageing and life. But I got a bit confused between the many differents versions and I would like to know if someone found a version of elven ageing, generational sheme AND chronologies of the ages of arda that ALL fit/work together... ?

Long before he was corrupted, Saruman would preach to crowds of the wars against Morgoth, the valour of the Edain, and the terrible tragedies which befell their houses. At least, as far as my headcanon is concerned, heh.

Reading the news and a recent post about a possible adaptation of the Silmarillion by Peter Jackson, i got that the consensus was that it was an awful idea, but it got me thinking.

What could an adaptation look like in terms of format? Even though i think it should be a whole (animated) saga, I'm afraid they'd feel like they have to make a trilogy, so how do you think they should divide the Silmarillion?

I was thinking:

1. Ainulindalë, and QS 1-mid 9 (ending with the oath of Fëanor)

2. QS mid 9-18/19 (idk how they intend to deal with Beren and Lúthien or Túrin for that matter)

3. From Nirnaeth Arnoediad to the end of the war of wrath.

PS: i don't want it adapted either, i just thought it would be interesting to hear different takes on this

>"Christopher Tolkien sort of edited and published other Tolkien books - the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, I mean there's a lot more Tolkien writing, which would actually make great movies - that were subsequently edited by Christopher but he just absolutely would not let any, the mere idea of film happen so those rights have never been available

>But Christopher passed away recently, I suppose 2 or 3 years ago now and the younger Tolkiens, this next generation, are now running the estate and they're much more open to talking

>So a combination of Warner’s and us have been talking to some of the younger Tolkien members who are now part of the board about the possibility of actually licensing the rights to some of the other books. It would be nice to get away from the appendices and get something a bit more meaty."

Personally I feel quite depressed by the development but I am wondering if anyone is optimistic?