u/tidewanderess

This is a hear me out. In the scene where the priestesses sing that leads Nesta to scrying for the Harp. Well the build up almost seems like a "forgotten melody" and who's at the centre singing these "forgotten melodies" in this scene....

>“It sounds heavenly,” Nesta admitted.
“It is.” Gwyn smiled again, eyes lighting with pride. “Some of the songs you’ll hear are so ancient they predate the written word. Some of them are so old we didn’t even have them in Sangravah. Clotho found them in books shelved below Level Seven. Hana—she’ll be the one who plays the lute—figured out how to read the music.”

>Nesta could only gape at the lovely melody, the voices from the front of the cavern leading it, lifting higher than the others. Gwyn sang, chin high, a faint glow seeming to radiate from her.
The music was pure, ancient, by turns whispering and bold, one moment like a tendril of mist, the next like a gilded ray of light.

>She’d never heard such music. Like a spell, a dream given form. The entire room sang, each voice resonating through the stone.
But Gwyn’s voice rose above them all, clear and powerful and yet husky on some notes...

>Nesta could have sworn that beneath the hem of Gwyn’s robe, the priestess’s foot was doing the same. The words and the countermelodies danced around and around, until the walls hummed with the music, until the stone seemed to be singing it back.

>Something beckoned in Gwyn’s song, in a way the others’ hadn’t. Like Gwyn was calling only to her, her voice full of sunshine and joy and unshakable determination. Nesta had never heard a voice like Gwyn’s—by turns trained and wild, as if there was so much sound fighting to break free of Gwyn that she couldn’t quite contain it all. As if the sound needed to be loose in the world.

> Gwyn’s voice rose again, holding such a high note it was like a ray of pure light, piercing and summoning.

>The music took form behind Nesta’s eyes as the priestesses sang lyrics in languages so old, no one voiced them anymore.

She is literally the person explaining that these songs are so old that they existed before written history.

And then she becomes the voice that rises above all the others....hmmmm

I’m not saying Gwyn is the forgotten melody. I just think it’s interesting that she’s directly connected to one of the clearest examples of a “forgotten melody” in the books.

The songs are ancient, from languages no one speaks anymore, and Gwyn is the one whose voice stands out the most.

So I’m not saying Gwyn = the forgotten melody etc. Just pointing out the connection between her and this very literal example of one.

The Valkyrie storyline really starts with Gwyn as its epicentre in the narrative...

>"Yes, thank the Cauldron. She’s writing a comprehensive history of the Valkyries.” -Gwyn
“The who?” - Nesta

>Gwyn lifted trembling fingers to her brow, touching the ribbon with which Nesta had crowned her.
Nesta’s voice was thick as she declared, “Valkyrie.”

>Gwyn’s fingers slid into hers, squeezing tight. Nesta looked up to find her holding Emerie’s free hand as well. Gwyn smiled again, her eyes bright. “Our stories are worth telling.”

So people are still trying to argue around the fact that Gwyn won’t be part of the Valkyrie Cycle...

I’ll absolutely give credit to Nesta for reforging the Valkyries. But Gwyn was the one who first mentioned them and their histories and practices, initiated the ceremony to be declared a Valkyrie, and even foreshadowed the future narrative with “Our stories are worth telling.”

The groundwork for Gwyn being part of this story is already there. I mean the Valkyries so far are those three girls.

And I like that I don’t have to analyse the colour of emoji hearts for validation. We have actual textual proof from SJM herself. It’s the VALKYRIE cycle, and who was in the bonus chapter that SJM specifically said had breadcrumbs?

Like, obviously I’m even more confident in Gwynriel, but I’m also really looking forward to Gwyn being at the forefront of the Valkyrie storyline. Like the Valkyrie Saga is pretty definitive about the narrative it will follow

But I can't wait to see the Valkyrie saga play out. I love those three so much

So we've seen the Spider potential cover imagery with the star on it's back just like Nesta has on her back, and looks like it's weaving a ribon of sorts....

But like hear me out...

>Gwyn snickered, her attention fixed on tying a length of white silk ribbon to a wood beam jutting from the side of the pit

>Of all their unique traits, stygian spiders are probably best known for producing spidersilk*. This material is lightweight yet extraordinarily durable, extremely strong, and gleams faintly in the sunlight.*  (from the wiki cause I'm lazy...https://throneofglass.fandom.com/wiki/Stygian\_Spider)

So… is that actually a ribbon of spidersilk? Ergo reinforces the connection with the Valkyries, ergo more Gwyn? I'm probably reaching, but omg just give us a cover or a name already...

Anyways I mean them being warriors, having something more durable than regular silk might be practical..

I’ve been working across APS3 and APS4 roles for the last four or five years, mostly in administration and back end roles. A lot of my experience has been contract or non ongoing, so I’ve mainly just gone where the opportunities are.

I really enjoy admin and operational work, but I’m struggling to figure out how to progress beyond APS3/4 without moving into frontline or customer facing roles. A lot of APS5 pathways in my agency seem to value that experience, whereas I’m much more suited to working behind the scenes.

I’ve been considering EA work as possible pathways, but I’d love to hear from people who have actually made that jump who kind of broke out of the APS3/4 cycle.

Are there particular agencies where there’s a strong focus on back end administration and opportunities to progress to APS5 to keep an eye out for? What helped you break out of the APS3/APS4 cycle while staying in that sort of work?

I know the hiring freeze has made things pretty dead at the moment, so I’m more interested in figuring out what direction to aim for maybe when opportunities start opening up. And trust me I apply for anything APS5 when it pops up. And apply for anything APS4 in other agencies to make a jump for other opportunities.

I'm very aware it is very much a waiting game, but I've just been feeling very stuck. If anyone has had the same experience love to hear about it

Question, does anyone else feel odd out when people say SJM is a writer of patterns and is very intentional with tropes? Like, I’m not saying she doesn’t love those tropes etc. It’s like, no shit, she loves to call back to that stuff and does do it, not saying hse is not guilty of that. This aint what I'm saying. But I see people say she won’t throw away like four books of buildup to start a new romantic plot, meanwhile Throne of Glass would beg to differ.

She wrote ACOTAR to be a Tamlin retelling, but has been on the record that when she thought of Rhys, it changed the trajectory. There are literally soooo many interviews where she talks about how, if something is not working in her eyes, she will pivot essentially. Like, there are soooo many examples and so many interviews, so I don’t know why people view her as having this rigid view of writing her books. She is actually quite passionate about telling the story she wants to write, and that can involve changing the story.

Now I think we look at Azriel’s bonus chapter as her pivoting the story and introducing new ideas.

There is a reason it’s not called the Elriel or Moriel chapter, despite us seeing other BCs be called by the ship name even when they’re from one POV. Even consciously, the fandom still elects to call it the Azriel bonus chapter. Even the antis. Is that kind of not a sign SJM’s writing is doing its job? She consciously trained the fandom that Azriel’s bonus chapter is about the direction for his character, not about Elriel. Like, she even broke down why “three brothers for three sisters” sounds like a weird thing and had Rhys say it, who is THE golden child, ergo her spokesperson. She herself is speaking these ideas into existence in the narrative.

I suppose what I’m getting at is I don’t like the idea of treating “3 + 3” as definitive proof of what SJM is going to do. People use tropes as signifiers for what’s coming and act like they are Elain themselves and predict the future and then act like they’ve cracked the code, while us Gwynriels apparently just don’t understand the writing and are dumb or some shit.

Meanwhile, the bonus chapter ends has Azriel thinking about Gwyn and feeling something in his heart, and suddenly that has to be explained away. Gwyn becomes this evil person controlling everyone.... and I think a lot of that comes from trying to make the chapter fit a predetermined conclusion. Because 3+3 has to be right I guess..

I just don’t think we should assume a trope means we already know where SJM is taking the story. And it was SJM herself who introduced these ideas into the narrative, but rather than just let them exist as tropes, she had Rhysand dismantle those ideas in one bonus chapter, and then introduce entirely new things for Az's character....

So, is SJM not telling us something? I’ll be honest, I don’t really care if people take Gwynriel seriously or not. What I do find interesting is how much effort the antis put into explaining Gwyn away, especially with all the think pieces about her being some evil siren. At some point, maybe the simpler explanation is that SJM actually wants us to pay attention to what she is actually saying.

Cassian's observation:

>Elain in black was ridiculous. Yes, she was beautiful, but the color of her long-sleeved, modest gown leeched the brightness from her face. It wore her, rather than the other way around. And he knew the cruelty of the Hewn City troubled her. But she hadn’t hesitated to come. When Feyre had offered to let her remain home, Elain had squared her shoulders and declared that she was a part of this court*—and would do whatever was needed. So Elain had let her golden-brown hair down tonight, and pinned it back with twin combs of pearl. He’d never once in the two years he’d known her found Elain to be plain, but wearing black, no matter how much she claimed to be part of this court … It sucked the life from her.

Nesta's observation:

>Gone was the ill-suited black dress from the ball, replaced by a gown of amethyst velvet, her hair half-up and curling down to her waist.

My interpretation is that the Night Court itself rejects Elain on an almost symbolic, social or spiritual level. I think SJM is being way more deliberate here than people give her credit for, even though she's being bloody direct about it here. like eff me some the ways people try to analyse Cassian's meaning, when he does the analysis himself like c'mon....

Look the Archeron sisters aren't Night Court natives. When they arrived, they were basically refugees. They didn't choose to be there, so it's not surprising it doesn't immediately feel like home. There is this underlying tension that Elain is not doing as well as people think and is hiding parts of herself. Here's Rhys supporting that: “But I wonder if everyone has spent so long assuming Elain is sweet and innocent that she felt she had to be that way or else she’d disappoint you all.” 

What's also interesting is Cassian doesn't just say black doesn't suit Elain. He connects it back to Elain having to "declare" and "claim" she's part of the Night Court. It seems to have been a topic going on that even Cassian is aware of. If she truly belongs somewhere, why does she have to keep asserting it??? Or is the Night Court rejecting her in some way, and on some level Elain knows it? If she feels the need to speak up and declare that she's part of the court just to be involved, that suggests this isn't an insecurity that came out of nowhere. I mean we've seen instance of her speaking up about being left out in acosf.

"no matter how much she claimed to be part of this court … It sucked the life from her." Enough said. it's straighforward. I think there is something deeper happening to Elain in this moment. She is essentially performing the role of a Night Court princess of sorts, trying to fit into an identity that seems to come so naturally to everyone else. Cassian isn't just observing that the dress doesn't suit her... he's noticing that forcing herself into this role is actively changing something about her in the moment and it is obvious to him. The performance of belonging is draining her rather than allowing her to truly bloom etc...

The Inner Circle doesn't exactly help either. Feyre immediately offers to let Elain stay home, like she doesn't really need to be involved. Again, it keeps Elain on the outside looking in.

Then Nesta also calls the black dress "ill-suited." At that point it's not just Cassian's opinion anymore. SJM repeats it for a reason. The black isn't just an ugly colour on Elain. It feels symbolic of the Night Court itself. It wears her instead of the other way around and blah blah

People dismiss Cassian as the dumb jock when it comes to this quote, but SJM makes this point incredibly direct. We don't need a colour analysis to work out what she's saying.

Even Elain's friendships reflect this. Nuala and Cerridwen clearly care about her, but most of what we actually see is them helping her get ready or baking with her, things tied to their handmaiden roles that we've seen to be insuinated for their spy work. We never really see them sharing Elain's actual passion for gardening or doing things outside of that. Plus they are sisters, so Elain is the natural outlier there as well.

To me, Elain always feels like the outlier. Feyre has the Inner Circle. Nesta has the Valkyries. Elain is there, but never quite of the Night Court.

That's why I don't think Cassian's opinion is one to be so easily dismissed. He's an actual Night Court native. He's lived there his entire life, calls it home, and is fiercely loyal to it. If anyone would recognise when someone truly fits or doesn't, it'd be him.

Even in the Feysand bonus chapter, Rhys and Feyre comment that Elain still has some unresolved blooming to do. So it's not like Cassian is the only one picking up on the fact that something seems unresolved with her, and not on shipping level but an environmental level almost.

What I find funny is that Cassian gets so much shit for this observation. Elain and Nesta didn't even realise their own little sister couldn't read, yet when Cassian makes an observation about Elain, some people act like he's suddenly incapable of reading people. I don't think SJM included these observations for no reason, especially on the Night Court being the place for her.

I could be wrong, but I don't think these details are random. Together, they suggest the Night Court never fully accepts Elain, almost on a spiritual level. That doesn't mean she's unwanted, just that she's not where she's meant to belong.

Now Az is literally personification of Night Court, his family and history would naturally be a Night Court lead story, whereas Lucien offer much more flexibility in giving Elain a story away from an environment that "stifles" her.

To me, the Night Court more like pit stop for a much grander story for her.... I think Lucien, with his story can open a much bigger world for her than what the Night Court can offer her.

I'm laughing a bit because people are treating the pink and blue hearts as some kind of gotcha, as if those colours can only ever be exclusively associated with certain characters.

Meanwhile, Bloomsbury, the actual publisher, ran a Valkyries event decked out in pink, with the Valkyries branding featured on pink merchandise with ribbons.

People will say, "Pink is associated with that dress," meanwhile Bloomsbury is literally hosting events with Valkyrie branding wrapped in pink. If we're playing the colour association game, that seems a lot more relevant to me and OFFICIAL than text about a dress.

But apparently "pink is a feminine colour, so it can only be associated with XYZ." Like, girl, the Valkyries have some of the girliest habits in the series. They have sleepovers, read books, and prioritise female friendships. Wielding a sword doesn't make someone any less feminine.

And the event is literally conveying you can be strong and still be associated with pink.

I'm just saying, we're still in the game.

I put a lot more stock in what the publisher is conveying than in independent artists and stores who have to pay for licensing for their merch, nothing against that but I don't think they're in on the grand plan. If I'm looking for clues about what's to come, Bloomsbury's branding choices are a much better indicator.

This is gonna be a hear me out. I don't really take stock in this, but it's kinda fun to look at.

So in House of Flame and Shadow, while Bryce is in the Prison, she and her amulet are clearing away wards or whatever from the floor:

>“These are Midgard’s constellations.” Bryce pointed to a cluster. “That’s the Great Ladle. And that … that’s Orion. The hunter.”
Hunt. Her Hunt.
Her companions, the tunnels, the world faded away as she traced the stars, plotting their path. The Archesian amulet warmed against her skin, as if working to clear the wards around her.
“The Archer,” she breathed. “The Scorpion and the Fish … This is a map of my cosmos.” Her boot knocked against a raised half-orb, a screaming face carved into it. “Siph.” The outermost planet.

If things go the way some of us suspect, Bryce specifically names: The Archer, The Scorpion, and The Fish grouped together.

Could these potentially align with current and future female POVs?

Feyre (The Archer)

Nesta (The Scorpion)

Gwyn (The Fish)

Also note The Fish is an allusion to Pisces. Pisces is made up of two fish. Gwyn is a twin and nymph. The math is kinda of there.

Then notice this section in the paragraph too:

>"Her boot knocked against a raised half-orb, a screaming face carved into it. “Siph.” The outermost planet."

The "outermost" one. Who is constantly left out of things in the plot and even her own sisterhood? Who fears going a little mad from visions, much like that screaming face?

Now, SJM likes to play with Norse inspired names in Crescent City, so Siph naturally is Sif.

According to Sif's mythology, according to her wiki, "she is known as "a prophetess called Sibyl, though we know her as Sif". Sif is further described as "the loveliest of women" and with hair of gold."

Who does that sound like? That's pretty bang on for Elain.

The Archer. The Scorpion. The Fish. (These three constellations). Siph (planet).

Sounds a little written in the stars, doesn't it? haha. But look Bryce does list off further planet and constellations. Just interesting that these were more or less grouped together.

And Bryce herself says: This is a map of my cosmos.

Could this be SJM subtly hinting at her plan?

Probably not. But alls fun in speculating. Though I am suspicious haha

Elain is mentioned in reference to roses in both ACOSF BC's, the Feysand and Azriel chapter. So in both instances, the rose imagery is connected to Elain being hurt in some way. The difference is that one rose remains connected to something she genuinely loves, even if it hurts her, while the other becomes a symbol of rejection and that connection to the rose symbolism is lost to her by the end of Azriel's chapter..

So this is the Elain/Elucien reference:

>“Don’t forget that gardening often results in something pretty, but it involves getting one’s hands dirty along the way.”
“And torn up by thorns,” I mused, recalling a morning this past summer when Elain had come into the house, her right palm bleeding from several gashes thanks to a stubborn rosebush that had pierced her gloves. The thorns had broken off in her skin, leaving sharp splinters that I’d had to pull free.
I didn’t dare mention that if she had been wearing the enchanted gloves Lucien had gotten her last Solstice, nothing would have pierced them at all.

In the Azriel Bonus chapter

>The golden necklace seemed ordinary - its chain unremarkable, the amulet tiny enough that it could be dismissed as an everyday charm. It was a small, flat rose fashioned of stained glass, designed so that when held to the light, the true depth of the colors would become visible. A thing of secret, lovely beauty.

but by the end of the chapter, the necklace is no longer associated with Elain, but associated with another woman:

>Something sparked in Azriel's chest, but he only nodded his thanks and left. He could picture it, though, as he ascended the stairs back to  the House proper. How Gwyn's teal eyes might light upon seeing the necklace. For whatever reason... he could see it.
But Azriel tucked away the thought, consciously erasing the slight smile it brought to his face. Buried the image down deep, where it glowed quietly. 
A thing of secret, lovely beauty.

What I find interesting is that SJM repeatedly uses roses in relation to Elain, but not always in the romantic way. I mean, yes, Feyre is also associated with roses, but Elain is too. What I find interesting is that Elain gets two major rose references in these BCs, and they almost seem to contrast each other.

In the Elucien passage, the roses are tied directly to Elain's gardening. They represent something she loves and chooses to pursue, but they also hurt her. The thorns pierce her gloves, leave splinters in her skin, and yet she keeps gardening anyway because creating something beautiful is worth the effort. What makes the scene interesting is the final line. We're specifically reminded that Lucien had already given her enchanted gloves that would have prevented those injuries entirely.

The symbolism is dare I say there? The scene presents Elain choosing something she loves despite the hurt it causes, while Lucien's gloves are positioned as a source of care and protection that she has yet to make use of. It's also a reminder that Lucien actually paid attention to her interests. The gloves weren't some random gift. Feyre had previously told him stories about Elain gardening with gloves. The gift was tailored to something Elain genuinely enjoys. He saw this aspect of her and bought her a gift that would give care and protection.

In Azriel's bonus chapter, the rose necklace starts out connected to Elain. But by the end of the chapter, that connection and symbolism no longer belongs to her. Azriel now associates the necklace and metaphor with Gwyn. The text literally shifts the rose imagery from Elain to Gwyn, with the repeated phrase "a thing of secret, lovely beauty" ultimately becoming attached to Azriel's thoughts of Gwyn rather than Elain.

And look maybe it's intentional, maybe it isn't. But it's interesting that the rose symbolism connected to Elain's actual interests, the symbolism actually remains "hers" in Feysand's chapter. The gloves are specifically mentioned as something that could have protected her from the thorns, making Lucien part of that imagery and metaphor as well. In Azriel's, meanwhile, the rose necklace, starts connected to Elain but doesn't stay with her. By the end of the chapter, it's associated with Gwyn.

Whether it means anything or not, one rose metaphor remains and informs part of Elain's character and story, while the other leaves it...

I think I'm on a bit of a "what does Elain actually want?" kick. With all the mystical and magical theories surrounding her, we know one thing for sure: Elain doesn't want a mate. She doesn't want the burden of it, and it arguably contributed to the destruction of her relationship with Graysen.

And it will emphasise that she valued Graysen because he was the one who truly "saw" her. It shows what Elain actually wants from a relationship... someone who sees her for who she is, rather than what she can offer, what she represents, or what others expect her to be etc...I'm more so what Elain has vocalised hersled than relying on third party perspectives.

That's why a lot of the "a mate would know" or "the Cauldron got it wrong" arguments don't really account for what Elain herself wants. Instead, they often seem designed to prove that the Elucien bond is somehow invalid and that Elriel are the "true" mates. But that directly contradicts Elain's own words and feelings on the matter.

Simply put:

Lucien:

>“She needs fresh air.” “Take her to the sea. Take her to some garden. But get her out of this house for an hour or two.”

Azriel:

>“We’re the ones who need …” Azriel trailed off. “A seer,” he said, more to himself than us. “The Cauldron made you a seer.”

What Elain vocalises:

>Nesta hid the devastation well. The frustration. “What can I get you, Elain?”
Only with Elain did she use that voice.
But Elain shook her head once more. “Sunshine.”

Who is closer to actually closer at identifying for Elain what "she" wants. I'm not discounting Az what he noticed what was wrong with her, but Az is the one who pointed she is a seer, a gift that forced upon her. When you look at Elain as an individual person rather than what she can do, Lucien comes closer.

So while Azriel understood what Elain had become, Lucien seemed more attuned to who Elain was.

Then there's Elain's view of the mating bond itself, like there are various quotes, but this Elain with Grayson, trying to explain she is capable of :

>“You are his mate. Do you even know what that means?”
“It means nothing,” Elain said, her voice breaking. “It means nothing. I don’t care who decided it or why they did—”

To me, this shows that Elain believes she is capable of ignoring the bond. She isn't confused about what a mate is. She knows exactly what everyone is telling her it means, and she rejects it anyway. At this point in the story, Elain is placing her own wants and choices above what the bond says she should feel.

Azriels':

>The Cauldron chose three sisters. Tell me how it's possible that my two brothers are with two of those sisters, yet the third was given to another."

Make of that what you will, but I don't think Elain would appreciate someone deciding she should be attached to yet another bond when she has already made it clear that destiny and magical pairings are not what determine who she wants to be with. To me, this supports the idea that Azriel doesn't truly see Elain as she wishes to be seen.

Then we get to ACOSF, the most recent to the story. We know Lucien is respecting Elain's boundaries and not forcing the mating bond. Essentially, Elain and Lucien are living separate lives. I will say I think this will lead to their journey's becoming entwined down the track.

Elain herself says:

>Elain said, “Then I will find it. I might require some time to … reacquaint myself with my powers, but I could start today.”
“Absolutely not,” Nesta spat, fingers curling at her sides. “Absolutely not.”
“Why?” Elain demanded. “Shall I tend to my little garden forever?” When Nesta flinched, Elain said, “You can’t have it both ways. You cannot resent my decision to lead a small, quiet life while also refusing to let me do anything greater.”

And then Azriel's response to Elain becoming involved in the actual plot?

>Azriel stiffened, an outright sign of temper from him as he said quietly, “There is an innate darkness to the Dread Trove that Elain should not be exposed to.”

Again, Azriel is essentially doing what everyone else does and deciding that Elain needs to be protected and sheltered, in spite what she vocialised. He puts her in the same bubble the rest of the Inner Circle tends to put her in. She's rarely included in anything meaningful unless they need information from her. Elriel's say this is her "true mate" because of this treatment, meanwhile everybody else give her this treatment too. It's not exclusive to him, ergo there's nothing special about this treatment from him when the IC does the same.

When you look at that alongside Elain's own comments about wanting to do more and be involved, iit contradicts how Elain wants to be seen and what she can do. They all want to keep her safe, but they don't always seem to consider what she actually wants.

I mean at least we get this from Amren:

>She threw a nod toward Azriel. “Including Elain, who is more than capable of defending herself against the darkness of the Trove, if she chooses to. Don’t underestimate her.”

And that's really the key point for me. The most consistent thread in Elain's character isn't romance. It's agency. Elain repeatedly pushes against people defining her and shit. She pushes against the mating bond. She pushes against being treated as fragile. She pushes aginst just being view for her gardens. Her conflict isn't just choosing between two men. It's choosing her own path and all that jazz.

When I look at the text, I see Lucien moving further toward respecting her choices, while Azriel often framed her in terms of what he wants and all that bond plot. Az gave us front row seats to his perspective and he was loud and clear. I mean, Rhys and Feyre pretty much would have supported Elriel if Azriel hadn't come out with that explanation for why he thought he and Elain should be together. No mention of mutual feelings when he tried to explain to Rhys. Azriel's argument is basically that he should have been her mate, not Lucien. The focus isn't on a mutual relationship.

I think the story keeps returning to the same question: Who actually listens when Elain tells them what she wants? And I think Lucien will give Elain the happiness of being herself with no pressure to be anything other than her.

>“Done,” Gwyn declared, the white ribbon fluttering in the wind where it hung from the beam. Behind them, a few of the priestesses working with Azriel had turned to see what the ribbon business was about. The shadowsinger crossed his arms, angling his head, but remained in his half of the ring.

>But Cassian made a contemplative noise, gesturing to the other half of the ring. “Az told me you also started preliminary work with the steel blades while we were gone.”
He nodded to Gwyn and Emerie, the former glancing toward Azriel, who watched in silence. “So show me what you learned. Cut the ribbon in two.”
“We slice the ribbon in two,” Emerie asked Gwyn warily, “and our training is complete?”
Gwyn again glanced to Azriel, who drifted closer. She said, “I’m not entirely sure.”

> Azriel murmured over a shoulder to the priestesses under his charge as they watched. They instantly began moving again. But Azriel’s attention remained on the ribbon.
“Should we bet?” Gwyn asked Nesta.

This is Chapter 51. But I'm curious what people make of Gwyn's reaction here.

This is basically the first scene where Gwyn introduces the concept of cutting the ribbon in half from the beam. As the scene goes, we see Azriel becoming more attentive to what's happening with the ribbon stuff. But what stands out to me is that Gwyn starts paying attention to Azriel the moment Cassian brings up that Az had told him about their preliminary work with the steel blades.

We get Gwyn glancing over at Azriel while Cassian is talking. Then Emerie asks Gwyn whether cutting the ribbon means their training is complete and Gwyn looks to Azriel again before answering. There doesn't seem to be any wariness in those glances. By all accounts, she'ss been perfectly fine training with him for the while Cassian was away, to the point that Azriel was noting their progress and had updated Cassian on it.

And also like Cas is letting Gwyn lead the explanation, so Az is noted as being curious about the ribbon so he is listening to what Gwyn is saying in this scene. He is being fed the info about the ribbon from her by listening in.

What do you make of Gwyn glancing over to him in this scene? The text specifically draws attention to her looking toward Azriel twice in a very short span of time with no follow through of why.

Plus love Gwyn going "should we bet" in the scene, a nice touch about her competitiveness coming through.

Saw on the main sub there’s a lot of frustration that we’ve gotten basically no new info and that everything is being kept super secretive. When in the past it really wasn't this guarded.

For me, I’m curious what this lack of information actually does for you guys?

Now personally, I’m not 100% confident on everything and I’m open to being wrong, but I do feel fairly confident in the general direction.

To me, if the books really is Elain’s, then naturally it would focus heavily on the love triangle. In that situation, we wouldn’t necessarily need confirmation of the male POV beforehand because that itself could be the surprise. That would be the marketing tactic in my eyes. But the fact that there is nothing out there and they’re being so secretive about it makes me think revealing any POV at all would basically give away the direction of the next two books. For me if Elain was going to get a concluding trilogy, then marketing would be way different to what it is now. For me the secrecy is because SJM has said she is surprised about the POVs herself, which makes me think its not the traditional route people would think.

Right now, I personally see the October book being Lucien and Elain. I still think the love triangle will play out in some form, but I see that first book being more ACOTAR length and more relationship/political setup focused.

Then the February book, I honestly see being Az and Gwyn. I’m sorry, but the way SJM has built up Azriel lately, he reads to me like her next major passion project in the same way Nesta became one. And because of that, I can absolutely see him getting the much larger book.

At this point, the secrecy almost feels more telling to me than than formal confirmation would i think. Instead its SJM and Bloomsbury acting like there is something to hide. feels like even confirming one character would make the overall structure of the next books too obvious.

What would you have as each Batgirl’s signature weapon? I feel like the Robins are basically the TMNT at this point where everyone has their own instantly recognisable weapon. But the Batgirls feel a bit less... defined in that area.

• Cass: i feel like she is the weapon, however I like the idea she might have gadgets or something she can throw. Like more emphasis on darts or throwing stars. Like I like the idea she is the one in the Batfamily less reliant on gadgets and stuff, but she is still equipped with stuff to help bamboozle or pratical detective stuff. Otherwise I do like the concept of her having sais.
• Steph: I think she's usually associated with Bo staff more often then not, and see people don't like the association because of Tim. I personally like the idea of esrima sticks for her moreso after Nightwings after her Batgirl finale.
• Babs: has had batons, recently bo staff, but seen with tonfas in Gotham Knights. I will say I do really like the tonfas. Its a call back to her escrimas skills, but so that not every batfam member has escrima sticks. Otherwise if she is tech would love to see something like the monowire from Cyberpunk. a high tech laso of truth with a bit more slice to it depending how its used. Could be used like Catwomans whip of sorts.

Now I know Helena is more crossbow associated but in terms of the Batgirls I do think the core Batfam is kind of missing a ranged weaponry specialist (not guns) like someone with a bow and arrow. Yes I know we have the arrow fam, but in terms of batfam there is allowed way more flexibility on skillsets. But just an idea.

Curious what everyone else would pick because I feel like DC never pushed this as hard for the Batgirls compared to the Robins.

Mor and Elain are the only direct callbacks by name during the Elriel portion of the chapter. But once the Gwynriel section starts, there’s no direct reference to either of them again.

>Rhysand blinked. "What of Mor, Az?"  
Azriel ignored the question. "The Cauldron chose three sisters....

Mor is specifically brought up during the Elriel conversation and Elain is obviously central to that exchange. But after that section ends, neither woman is directly referenced again. I just think it’s interesting that the Mor and Elain material is contained entirely within that specific portion of the chapter, almost kind of linked together?

What’s interesting to me is that it’s Rhys who brings Mor up. Rhys clocks that something about what Az is going through is off. And then Rhys cuts straight to the goddamn point about his inconsistency. Rhys bringing Mor up almost feels like a reminder that Azriel has projected onto unavailable women before....

And Azriel completely sidesteps it. He doesn’t answer the question or reflect on Mor at all. He immediately redirects the conversation back to Elain, the bond and the Cauldron choosing “three sisters.” His avoidance to answer that questions says more then him actually answering the question me thinks. A simple, “Mor is just my sister now and I love Elain,” or even some internal thought lingering on that would have gone a long way. Especially when you compare it to Cassian in his first bonus chapter with Nesta, where SJM was already laying the foundation for Cas and Mor's dynamic.

But with all that said, I do think Mor will probably be involved in however Elriel ultimately plays out or falls outs. I just don’t think any future relationship Azriel has with Gwyn would be framed with Mor's presence in the same way.

Anyways it's notable that Mor and Elain are only directly referenced or invoked or whatever within that specific Elriel section of the chapter. Once the Gwynriel portion begins, the narrative completely stops referencing either woman by name. And only ends with him thinking about one woman. And it ain't Mor or Elain. And bite me, none of them was "haunting the narrative" when Az felt a spark in his chest.

Anyways I can imagine Az will still be a complete mess in relationships

https://preview.redd.it/w2e8nent0e2h1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=a72489b47174b8ac00596d99347d60ea70b5b4a6