The Paradoxical Designs of Marathon

The Paradoxical Designs of Marathon

Obligatory NO AI USED disclaimer.

TLDR: Marathon has lots of great and intentional designs that end up contradicting each other. More distinct modes is a good way to allow more players to have fun, and I really hope they manage to salvage this imperfect masterpiece.

Two things can be true. Do I wake up every morning, brimming with excitement to get in an extra game of Marathon before my kids wake up? Yes. Is the game barely hanging by a thread while the devs desperately try to resuscitate it? Also yes.

Not here to name faults or offer yet another idea on how to "fix" the game, but after 300+ blast-having hours in both solos and trios, I wanted to highlight why I think Bungie's own intended goals makes it very hard for them to get everything right. A lot of the game's design decisions seem to be directly in conflict with each other:

1. Tension vs PVP curation

https://preview.redd.it/werlwp0ypakh1.png?width=1606&format=png&auto=webp&s=d0a741341816e2df97752d911ff6a9a840f96cf3

There is a lot of great tension intended in Marathon's sci-fi horror vibes and stealth mechanics, but PVP is designed to be all but guaranteed. Z himself stated that he wanted it to be about when, not if, you'll run into another team. There's value in curating PVP, and people have complained when the lobbies feel too empty, but curation kills tension, and there's no horror when you know that if your enemy is not around this corner, they're around the next. Lots of spawn rushing tactics also stem from this intentional density.

2. Complex combat vs. extraction gear loss

https://preview.redd.it/gyn0j7vypakh1.png?width=1607&format=png&auto=webp&s=fff5d3129d4fcec7fe77223f81b5ebd91bfa1f05

Marathon's trios-based combat has a carefully selected TTK that both enables and requires you to make a dozen decisions mid-fight, sometimes literally within a one-second window. That's a high skill ceiling, and in a good way. Simultaneously, extraction gear loss mechanics help reinforce the game as a punishing survival shooter, where losses hurt and wins are hugely rewarding. This makes it very hard to learn and practice combat. Have you ever found a shiny rare gun for the first time, only to lose it without firing a single shot? The result is that players who have either the time or skill to grind it out are allowed to get better, while the rest who don't have either (most of us) will feel completely locked out.

3. Rogue-lite death loops vs. crew fill unpredictability

https://preview.redd.it/zxcxu110qakh1.png?width=1606&format=png&auto=webp&s=7dc199a5ad3c8f223ac55978381f2f1e70d47f34

Die, learn, repeat. Rogue-lites are some of the most successful game loops these days, but each death needs to feel like you've learned something, or progressed in some small way. The game's trios-based crew fill matchmaking is designed to maximize emergent player stories, but too many death loops end with no meta-progression because of this, e.g. "my teammate just ran in and died". Nothing to learn from. This IMO is the biggest reason that players bounce off the game.

4. Exploration vs time crunch

https://preview.redd.it/v1ignsx0qakh1.png?width=1606&format=png&auto=webp&s=ad608acbcbdd6d2df62e51954777619379f30ec6

Marathon's maps are amazing labyrinths to explore and solve. There's a huge sense of mystery in the derelict colonies you're tasked to investigate. Simultaneously, sub-25-minute matches make it easier to schedule playtime and reset bad runs. But the time crunch disincentivizes exploration. We end up having to either skip the sightseeing or effectively forfeit precious gear and loot as "payment". This is why many players will tell you that the atmosphere and tension play out way better in solos, where PVP is less forced and you're not as rushed. But the incredibly fun and complex trios combat is wholly missing there.

5. Contract-based onboarding vs. trios design

https://preview.redd.it/jipsqjo1qakh1.png?width=1607&format=png&auto=webp&s=f1e367f0f024cc31f35d5639b6e281ad3556ca3a

Priority contracts are a decent tutorial for learning the basics and maps. But tutorials are inherently a solo endeavor. With almost everything in the game designed and tuned exclusively for trios, there is no easy way for players to onboard at their own pace. Some of us might've had the foresight to do contracts in solo and learn the ropes before diving into trios, but you can't rely on self-discovery for people to figure out just how to get started with a video game.

With all that said...

Why am I still in love with this game? Despite the conflicting designs, I think the parts of the game that the devs got right, they got them very right. My guess is that the players retained are ones who found a way to learn the mechanics of this sandbox with minimal handholding. Those of us who prioritize tension converged in solo, whereas those who enjoy high-adrenaline combat stayed in trios.

A lot of this may be a reflection of the clashes between Marathon's original pipedream and the now ex-director's PVP direction. Leveraging the good bones to create more distinct game modes is probably the simplest path to allowing conflicting design goals to coexist. In this sense, I think S3's focus on new player experience and more chill ways to explore content are good bets. Whether they can pull off the execution remains to be seen, but I wish Bungie the best of luck on turning this game around. The remaining player base is counting on it. Long live Marathon.

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u/zeth_rydaul — 10 hours ago
▲ 708 r/Marathon

Spare a life. Make someone else's run. Be a guardian angel on Tau Ceti for a day.

Somehow this easily beats the highs I get from finding shiny loot.

u/zeth_rydaul — 1 month ago

An optimistic theory on why Season 2 is so buggy

I'm sure many of you would agree that Season 2 feels like the polar opposite of Season 1 in terms of polish. Then on top of that, the devs don't seem to be doing much to address the issues we're seeing in Season 2 either. I have a hopeful theory on why this is happening.

First, some software engineering background. People have already discussed evidence that suggests Season 2 was built upon an outdated version of Season 1. This means that the codebase was branched off at some point for new Season 2 content to be added, and thus did not receive any subsequent tweaks and fixes that Season 1 has since received.

Now codebase branches are like timelines in parallel universes. The longer they stay branched, the more wildly different they become, and the harder it gets to merge them back into a single, cohesive project. There are essentially 2 main ways that you might go about dealing with this mess:

Option 1: Maintain both branches. Build Season 3 content on an up-to-date branch of Season 1, while simultaneously applying fixes and QoL updates to the current production build of Season 2. Then, at some point down the line before Season 3's release, take on the massive pain-in-the-ass task of merging the two together, crossing fingers that it won't introduce even more bugs.

Option 2: Abandon the Season 2 branch. Build Season 3 content on an up-to-date branch of Season 1, and apply all new fixes directly here. Focus QA and testing efforts on the internal Season 3 build, while keeping a skeleton crew of devs who will make minimal changes to Season 2, taking on only the most game-breaking issues (e.g. couldn't revive in cryo) and the lowest-hanging fruit (e.g. folding stock description was flipped). Divert resources to prioritize a polished Season 3, even if it means neglecting the current production build.

A lot of these infrastructure decisions often have a "correct" choice when you ask the engineers, but projects ultimately end up in weird places due to a multitude of factors such as release deadlines. Regardless of how they arrived here, there is a possibility that Option 2 is the reason that the season feels somewhat abandoned. If that's the case, then they still have a chance to deliver a polished Season 3.

It is ALSO possible that their situation is way worse than I imagined, and that Season 3 is built on yet another out-of-date codebase that is lacking various fixes from both Season 1 and 2, and that things will only spiral further out of control. I've been hearing Destiny veterans saying that this is just regular ol' Bungie, but I really think that "perpetual jankiness" is only situationally forgivable in a purely PVE game like Destiny. Seeing that Marathon is a brand new project with high-tension PVP being its focus, I don't think they have an excuse to pull the same shit. Its survival is hanging by a thin enough thread as it is.

Anyway, writing this out made me realize that this might just be a whole new level of cope lol. Nonetheless, I think the best we can do, as players, is be patient and supportive of the game we love, and hope that the devs will deliver.

And Bungie, you've got this. I don't care if it's corporate execs or gaming trends or internet culture or bad code that ultimately kills the game, or if Marathon rises to become a historic, long-running franchise. You've ALREADY given me the most thrilling and immersive stealth PVP experience of a lifetime. Heck, I even discovered IEMs because of this game. So thank you, and when I think of Marathon years after I've stopped playing, I know I'll have plenty of fond memories to draw upon.

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u/zeth_rydaul — 1 month ago
▲ 271 r/Marathon

[Field Research #4] Tunnels of Perimeter

This is my ongoing attempt to help distribute intel in the absence of a robust wiki for Marathon. Previous field research entries can be found here:  #1#2, #3. Open to suggestions on other things I should investigate!

This one is pretty self-explanatory. Data Wall and the underground tunnels connect many POIs in Perimeter. I always enjoyed exploring the maps with minimal pre-game knowledge, but after running through these like a headless chicken more times than I can count, I finally decided to map them out for myself.

Many among you probably know this like the back of your hands by now, but I thought it'd still be helpful to explicitly document it. Perhaps this will inspire some new route-planning the next time you need to get between the north and south halves of Perimeter!

u/zeth_rydaul — 2 months ago
▲ 115 r/Marathon

[Field Research #3] V85 Circuit Breaker and the elusive third charge

This is my ongoing attempt to help distribute intel in the absence of a robust wiki for Marathon. Previous field research entries #1 and #2 can be found in their respective links. Open to suggestions on other things I should investigate!

The Circuit Breaker always felt like a "cool" gun to me, because it's the only gun that can one-shot a purple/gold shield on paper. So, with the aid of many helpful runners in solo queue, I did some damage testing.

The most important thing I've learned from the test data is that the Circuit Breaker's advertised stats are somewhat misleading.

https://preview.redd.it/yryffmj01f9h1.png?width=553&format=png&auto=webp&s=a49f751fea523adbfe3141f0db30f891e02d5237

It says "can be charged up to three levels", with a firepower (i.e. max headshot damage) of 220. This is actually only true with the gold mod, which correctly states that it adds a third charge:

https://preview.redd.it/51x1mxe02f9h1.png?width=316&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc7831042a50504eeb9c50fa7428d469a6dffddb

So the average player who's just exploring the game on their own, who has never even seen this gold mod, will be left confused about why the weapon seemingly only charges up to 2 levels. This also means that a standard Circuit Breaker actually can't even one-shot a blue shield in the head. Only with the gold mod will you one-shot a purple shield in the head, and one-shot a blue shield on the body.

I've gathered the raw damage at various charge levels below:

https://preview.redd.it/uk0t14s12f9h1.png?width=525&format=png&auto=webp&s=ac5e07bc01ba6a39eae946aa82db74ba648213a1

Interestingly, the raw damage is applied to health normally, but to shields with a flat 20% bonus. This might be what people are saying about energy weapons dealing more damage to shields. Someone with more knowledge on other guns can chime in.

With the shield damage bonus, the effective HP of a purple shield against a Circuit Breaker is actually 186.6, so here are some combos that will bring down a purple at full health. You can do the math to simulate more scenarios. For abbreviation, C represents charge level (e.g. 2C = a 2-charge shot).

  • 3C on head (gold mod) = down
  • 3C on body (gold mod) + any chip damage = down
  • 2C on head + quick melee (any stat) = down
  • 2C on head + 0C on body = down
  • 2C on body + 0C on head = down
  • 1C on body, twice = down
  • Lastly, 2C on body + 0C on body will bring a purple/gold shield down to literally <1 HP, so any prior chip damage or follow-up will down them. I wonder if this is by design.

Looking at all these numbers, I think the most efficient way to use a standard Circuit Breaker is to peek with fast 1-charge shots. Land two of those on the body and you'll down any runner at full health.

Lastly, with the gun's 85 RPM, spamming uncharged shots nets you an abysmal 66.6 bodyshot dps, possibly the worst in the entire game. Definitely not the way to play this gun.

u/zeth_rydaul — 2 months ago
▲ 382 r/Marathon

I have discovered the most powerful item in solo

Imagine a 6-man cryo cheese crew steamrolling other trios. By ratio, this is what it's like when just two solo players form an in-run alliance. The only problem is that trust is hard to form in a game like this, and most people will shoot first and ask questions later. So this is what you do:

  • Step 1: Defeat a runner of your choice in single combat. Yes, easier said than done, but you do have to earn this :)
  • Step 2: Mercy kit.
  • Step 3: Offer to team up!

It sounds simple, but by doing it this way, you prove that you mean no harm because you had full opportunity to take them out of the match. The downed runner will know that the alliance is genuine. Even with free kits, you two are now an unstoppable force as a duo in a solo lobby.

Of course, they might just stand up and stab you straight in the gut, but surprisingly this has never happened to me so far.

There are times where a player (especially those without a mic) will choose to go their separate ways, and free kits will sometimes choose to forfeit the match altogether, but most of the time they respond, and we end up doing the rest of the run at much greater efficiency due to not having to check every corner.

I usually offer to help out with whatever they came for, but the benefits really go both ways. Just as an example, my most recent mercy kit run led me to finish Truth/Lies [6/6] on my first try! There is also more than enough loot on the map for 2. That's why, at least in solo, I think the mercy kit is an underappreciated item with immense potential.

u/zeth_rydaul — 2 months ago

1.1.0.2 Blue shield UESC no longer dropping certs?

Went the whole run without finding a single cert, same with green shield UESC. I noped out through a guarded exfil immediately.

u/zeth_rydaul — 2 months ago
▲ 354 r/Marathon

"I've mastered the ability...of standing so incredibly still...that I become invisible to the eye"

Should've turned on her visor.

u/zeth_rydaul — 3 months ago
▲ 176 r/Marathon

Lvl 37, solo only, no rook runs, no guides. Did I do good?

First time trying an extraction shooter. Late to the season and not much interest in loot, but the contracts give it a rogue-lite feel and I'm completely in love with the game! Co-evolution 5/5 felt satisfying to beat, like a boss level, so tonight I'm gonna queue into some trios with the sole intention of helping them achieve whatever they came for.

u/zeth_rydaul — 3 months ago
▲ 260 r/Marathon

[Field Research] Exactly how much you get from each ammo crate

I play solo, and find it cheaper sometimes to load into a run with a couple of ammo crates instead of directly buying the ammo I want.

None of the 3 existing wikis seem very well maintained as far as I can tell, so I'll just document some findings here for now. Hopefully the data just being here means LLMs will be able to find it.

Here's exactly what each tier of ammo crate provides:

Ammo Crate (aka Standard Ammo Crate):

  • 60 Light Rounds
  • 40 Heavy Rounds
  • 1 Volt Battery

Enhanced Ammo Crate:

  • 80 Light Rounds
  • 60 Heavy Rounds
  • 3 Volt Batteries
  • 4 MIPS Rounds
  • 1 Volt Cell

Advanced Ammo Crate:

  • 160 Light Rounds
  • 80 Heavy Rounds
  • 6 Volt Batteries
  • 15 MIPS Rounds
  • 4 Volt Cells

Will post more of these if people find it useful. Feel free to share ideas!

u/zeth_rydaul — 3 months ago

3 shots of WSTR can't finish a downed runner?

Was I supposed to aim down sight?

u/zeth_rydaul — 3 months ago
▲ 72 r/Marathon+1 crossposts

First of all, massive thanks to 3D PRINTLAB JP for sharing their 3D model for the WSTR. They've put up a lot of other models too!

Here's what I realized. I have thousands of hours in Dota 2. Love that game, but I would never consider a keychain about it. Marathon, in contrast, is oozing with so much personality that I already want to get my hands on some quality swag.

While on vacation in China, I found a Taobao merchant who does full-color custom prints using WJP tech, so I thought why not make my own WSTR keychain? I spent a lot of time tweaking the 3D model to fit my requirements, but in the end it cost just 50 RMB (~7 USD) to print. I'm sure if Bungie decided to manufacture these in bulk, they'll be even cheaper. I don't know if there are others like me, but I think I've never ever purchased a digital skin in any game. I do, however, wish to pay for something more tangible.

I'm currently looking for ways to improve durability because resin prints are apparently too brittle to be used as a keychain. Not sure if an epoxy resin dip will be sufficient. Any feedback or suggestion is welcome!

Some FAQs for those curious:

How long did this take?
I've already clocked nearly 30 hours on this project in total, mostly due to having zero 3D modeling experience prior. I learned a lot of things the hard way trying to convert a 3mf Bambu export to something that could be printed in full color via WJP. Having a blast though.

What does it feel like to hold?
No clue 😭. I got the idea kinda last-minute on my trip. By the time my model was printed and shipped over, I had already left China. I'll get to hold the finished products the next time my parents visit.

Can I share my Blender files?
Unfortunately, the IP belongs to 3D PRINTLAB JP. The model's standard license on MakerWorld forbids me from distributing any derivative work. Until I obtain permission, the best I can do is document and share my project's progress for now.

u/zeth_rydaul — 3 months ago