r/JohnAndCarolyn

On July 3, 1999, Carole and Anthony Radziwill moved to Red Gate Farm because John wanted to spend more time with Anthony. John and Carolyn spent their last Fourth of July weekend with the Radziwills, Sasha Chermayeff and her family, Robert Littell and his family, and Santina Goodman, John's friend from Brown University, on Martha’s Vineyard.

Excerpt from What Remains by Carole Radziwill: “On the third of July we move from Mike and Diane's house to John and Carolyn's. John wants to spend more time with Anthony. I make no more excuses. He has put a bed in a downstairs room off the patio so Anthony won't have to climb the stairs. He has arranged to have Effie stay on to cook and manage the house. Anthony seems happy about the move. He finds a trainer from the gym in Vineyard Haven who will come to the house.”

Robert Littell: “I last saw Anthony over the Fourth of July weekend in 1999, when Carole brought him over to the house on the Vineyard for a visit. He was in a wheelchair and John was distraught.

That summer we spent both Memorial Day and the Fourth of July on the Vineyard with John and Carolyn, flying up in John's shiny new red Piper Saratoga. There was a flight instructor on board both times, but John was at the controls the whole time. His landings were barely noticeable, something he took pride in. None of us felt nervous about flying with John—he was the opposite of reckless, with the attitude of a cautious and serious pilot.

Although he mentioned that his new plane was more aerodynamically sensitive than his previous Cessna— "squirrelly" was his word—our four flights that summer were perfect. The Fourth of July visit was an unexpected one, a last-minute invitation that came about because Carolyn told John she'd had so much fun on Memorial Day that she wanted to do it again.

I am forever grateful to Carolyn for that last visit. It was a gorgeous and fun-filled weekend, everyone relaxed and happy to be together. When it was over, on Monday night, we said good-bye to Carolyn, who was staying to help Anthony move to Red Gate for the rest of the month. John flew us back to the airport in Caldwell, New Jersey. That's where we last saw each other. He had to stay to fill out some paperwork and clean and put the plane away, so we said our good-byes standing behind the right wing on the tarmac. Filled with memories of the wonderful weekend we'd just had, we leaned into each other and shared a hug and a handshake.

I said, stating the obvious, "That worked out nicely."
John responded, "As good as it gets."

Sasha Chermayeff: “Things were very rocky. He still had the cast on during the Fourth of July weekend on the Vineyard, and Santina and me and Robbie, we all felt it: the reason we are all here is because they can't be by themselves. He said, "I'm proud that I'm facing my demons. I'm seeing who I am." He was talking about the dark sides of being human, the shadow sides—anger, jealousy, resentment, feelings you're not comfortable with. Processing the darker things. He wanted to know himself in a deeper way, face his own contradictions. John used to say, "I want to be with my family— not my family." We were his family, but our being there also was a way to not confront what he and Carolyn needed to confront.”

….it’s interesting how differently Sasha and Robert remembered the same weekend they spent with John and Carolyn. Robert recalled it as a fun, memorable and enjoyable time, while Sasha's version painted a picture of tension and unease, with John seemingly caught up in emotional turmoil and wrestling with his inner struggles. Robert described Carolyn as genuinely excited to have them over, saying she had such a great time during Memorial Day weekend that she wanted to get together again. Sasha, suggested a very different interpretation—that John and Carolyn invited them because they couldn't stand being alone together and needed guests to act as a buffer.

On July 4, 1998, John and Carolyn joined the Kennedys for a major family celebration of the Independence Day holiday at the Kennedy compound. The festivities started with a special Mass under a tent in Sargent and Eunice Shriver's yard during which the sacrament of Communion was offered. Then there was a family cruise in Hyannis Harbor with at least thirty Kennedy relatives on board, including Rosemary Kennedy, who was visiting from St. Coletta's.

Carolyn Bessette Kennedy could roughhouse with them as if she'd been born into the family, chasing John's cousins around the property, playing football with them, jumping into the ocean and dunking them. On this day, she spent an hour on the sand with the youngest Kennedys of the third generation, trying to teach them how to do cartwheels and somersaults.

Meanwhile, Ethel stood on the beach and admonished her, saying, “Carolyn, don't do that. You're going to hurt yourself!" John chuckled.
"Don't worry, Aunt Ethel," he said, "she's made of rubber. I think it's all that yoga." Ethel had to laugh. "She's me at that age, you know?" she told John. "I used to be able to do somersaults too, way back in the Stone Age."

Later, at the buffet table, John and Carolyn joked about how John had only complex carbohydrates on his plate—macaroni and cheese, potatoes, and corn. "Now that's what I call a meal, Kitty Cat," he said, using his nickname for her. Carolyn picked up a grilled steak and put it on his plate along with some avocado, fresh green beans, and some sliced tomatoes. "I don't know what I'm going to do with you," she said, kissing him on the cheek. Ted, witnessing the scene from his table, remarked to Pat, "God, those kids are so in love, aren't they? It's like watching Jack and Jackie again, all these years later."

As John and Carolyn sat talking to Sargent, Eunice, their daughter, Maria, and her husband, Arnold, a bunch of Kennedy nieces and nephews scurried about the yard chasing eastern cottontail bunnies. "You'll never catch them," John told the kids with a big grin. "Those things run faster than Kennedys, and that's really saying something." Then, gazing at Carolyn lovingly, he added, "Sometimes, though, it's nice to get caught."

Most of John's family adored Carolyn. They knew that she fully supported John in everything he wanted to do, and she represented, in their view, a real anchor for him.

- Excerpt from After Camelot: A Personal History of the Kennedy Family 1968 to the Present by J. Randy Taraborrelli.

“It was usually a tough night for event photographers when John appeared on the call list of VIP's attending an event. Many more press photographers would show up, hoping to make sales.
Kennedy was always hot and editors needed fresh images of the young Assistant District Attorney. The reason I was able to get photos of John, along with a handful of others, like Patrick McMullan, Mary Hilliard or Bill Cunningham, was because he knew our photos would not end up in some trashy tabloid. We were trusted and there was mutual respect. He knew I was friendly with his Aunt Lee. So he "allowed" me access.
Most of the time his signature pose was to look straight at the ground when press interlopers would aim their cameras at him. I considered myself lucky.”

“Whenever John was inside a press event, I always noticed how he would unconsciously make adjustments to his waistline. Just a nervous tick from the stress of a lifetime in the limelight.”

Everything comes down to whether Jackie would’ve lived long enough to see the relationship and meet Carolyn.
I’ve seen a lot of people say John and Carolyn still would’ve gotten married and that Jackie would’ve loved her, but nahhh. Jackie had a lot of influence over John’s decisions, and her opinion carried a lot of weight. If she had been alive to see that fight in the park, he would’ve had to find someone else because I just can’t see Jackie being okay with the family being embarrassed like that and them putting their hands on each other, cause she was all about “class”

If Jackie had accepted her, I think her life would’ve been completely different and so much easier. She would have had protection.

This is actually hilarious. 😆
Jackie had her own scandals, and the reason John married Carolyn was actually very simple: to him, she was the one—not an afterthought, nor someone he married simply because “the timing was right,” as so many people like to claim.
One thing nearly everyone who truly knew them has said is that John absolutely adored Carolyn. She was also not the type of woman who sat quietly and let anyone tell her what to do or how to live her life. If anything, had she wanted him to distance himself from someone, he would have. Friends have said John often did the opposite of what his mother advised, yet he later admitted he regretted never introducing Carolyn to Jackie because he believed his mother would have loved her.
There were several reasons he didn’t introduce them earlier: Jackie was ill, his relationship with Daryl was still on-and-off, and he feared that if his mother didn’t immediately approve of Carolyn, he would do what he always did stick to the relationship before it had a chance to grow naturally to do the opposite of what his mom wanted. He wanted it to develop on their own terms.

People also leave out an important part of their history. Carolyn actually ended things when they first met in 1992 after receiving that letter. John then pursued her relentlessly—sending flowers, apologizing, and calling so often that she even changed her phone number. There are photos of them together in November 1993, but there are also photos from August of that year showing them riding bikes together in the park. She ended things again after he attended a movie premiere with Daryl, who was still in his life on and off. His explanation—that he felt sorry for Daryl—was hardly his finest moment.
It wasn’t until after Jackie’s death, months later, that John and Carolyn became exclusive. Carolyn wasn’t looking for a serious relationship. By many accounts, she struggled with trust and wasn’t someone who believed in marriage. In many ways, John was the one who kept pursuing her—not the other way around.
Before making assumptions or repeating internet myths, people should do some actual research. Carolyn eventually fell deeply in love with John, and he had been deeply in love with her for a long time.
The constant need to tear down Carolyn—or John, for that matter—is exhausting. So many people seem more interested in keeping old tabloid narratives alive than acknowledging the complexity of two real people who loved each other. Unfortunately, I think these false narratives will continue because they’re more entertaining to some than the truth.

The women who come on here just to trash Carolyn—and John as well—aren’t supporting other women. They’re simply keeping decades-old gossip alive. That’s what’s truly pathetic.

Examples of what I see as Steve Gillon's whitewashing:

Gillon wrote, "It's impossible to know the intimate details of John and Carolyn's private lives, but from all the available evidence, it appears highly unlikely that John was having an affair." Yet he then goes on to speculate about their sex life, reiterate claims from Michael Bergin's book, and add his own personal interpretation, all after acknowledging that it's impossible to know the intimate details of their relationship. It reads less like a cautious assessment and more like a way to dismiss the possibility that John may have been unfaithful without seriously exploring it. Gillon also never explains what this supposed "available evidence" actually is. He simply asserts that it exists without citing or discussing it. It ends up reading like, "Trust me, bro."

Gillon also wrote, "John confessed to friends, 'I wish I could cheat on her.' But he did not want to humiliate Carolyn the way his father had done to his mother."

Again, this reads as Gillon's interpretation rather than a well-supported conclusion. When did John supposedly say, "I wish I could cheat on her"? Which friends did he say it to? Under what circumstances? Gillon doesn't provide any context or sourcing for the quote. Instead, he presents his own interpretation as fact and builds a conclusion on top of it.

Regarding John’s inappropriate relationship with Julie Baker post marriage, Gillon writes—after interviewing Baker—that, "Their friendship was completely transparent, and Carolyn even invited Julie to one of John's birthday celebrations at their apartment." What Gillon doesn't mention is what happened at that birthday party. Elizabeth Beller provides additional context, writing: "John had many female friends, which was usually fine. Until it wasn't. John had lunch with Julie Baker once a month, and Carolyn did not object. Yet, she drew the line after Julie Baker climbed into his lap during a birthday party at the loft. Understandably, Baker was then banned."

Gillon's characterization of the friendship between John and Julie as "completely transparent” is inaccurate. By omitting that incident, he presents a much different picture of the relationship than one that includes it. Gillon also mentioned: “their close friendship was no secret to Carolyn, who was completely comfortable with the arrangement." If that were true, why was Julie banned from their apartment after the birthday party?

Why didn't Gillon receive the same level of criticism for whitewashing aspects of John's life that Beller received for her book about Carolyn? Is it because people are more comfortable reading a glorified hagiography of John and tend to be less critical of him in general? The book largely glosses over John's flaws, shortcomings, and his role in the deterioration of the marriage. Instead, the blame is placed almost entirely on Carolyn. That's not surprising, considering Gillon was John's friend and seems to view him through rose-colored glasses.

Photos taken at the cape on June 20, 1995.

John, whose chiseled physique was regularly displayed in newspapers and magazines around the globe, was himself garnering a reputation as something of an exhibitionist. At Edgartown on Martha's Vineyard, locals accused him of walking around town wearing only a towel around his waist and coyly letting it slip.

"He loves to walk around in the nude," said R Couri Hay, who worked out at the Aspen Club in Colorado when John was there. "He walks around in the gym with his bathrobe open, and when he takes a shower he leaves the curtain open." According to Hay, John skinny-dipped at a Hyannis Port pool party, then strolled around nude while waiters served guests drinks. Hay wound up thinking JFK Jr.
"could have been a porno star."

The exhibitionist streak would persist. Years later, in 1990, John vacationed on St. Bart's, in the French West Indies. Once again, he swam and walked around on the beach nude-only this time he was captured on film by New York travel agent Shelley Shusteroff. The photographs, for which Shusteroff was allegedly offered a six-figure sum, were not published.

"All summer, we had photographers-they would just hang out at the Hyannis Port compound and wait for John to go swimming and we'd get the shirtless photo and slap it in the paper. We used to call him the "hunk of tutti hunks." I don't know if there's anybody | could even name now—maybe like a Beyoncé type of fame, worldwide fame. He's as handsome as can be and the whole tragic backstory and the heroic family saga-he was the whole package!" - Gayle Fee, columnist for the Boston Herald.

"I'm going to remember him as I saw him up in Hyannisport. He always had his New York Yankees cap on backward, he always wore a T-shirt and bathing suit, sandals and sunglasses. I'd see him walking down to the yacht club to go sailing or cutting across the backyard gathering lots of kids up for a touch football game. He was a normal guy, a good guy." - Mike Barnicle (New York Daily News Columnist).

Memory shared by Jim Dunham:

"I will share the brief acquaintance that I had with Carolyn during our sophomore year at Boston University. I will never forget the first time I saw her. She was sitting in an auditorium chair, leaning over the fold-over wooden writing surface, taking a test. Her long, blonde hair reached toward the floor, and then she flipped it back. She was wearing jeans that were tight at the ankles. I remember thinking, Wow.

She and I were eventually assigned to the same study group, where we worked together on an end-of-the-semester project. As a result, we spent many long hours with a few other people writing the group project. She and I ended up writing most of it because the other members of our group were less than industrious.

She was dating the captain of the hockey team. She had a very approachable personality, and she often made me laugh or smile, even when she didn't mean to. I found her way of expressing herself unique and funny in an understated way.

I remember her saying that she wanted to go into teaching, as her mother had. I also remember her talking about how her mother would zoom into parking lots and park her red sports car while Carolyn would shrink down in embarrassment. My impression was that she was neither materialistic nor superficial and did not like to draw attention to herself unnecessarily.

I never saw her lose her temper, but when I once spoke very snidely to her because I was in a bad mood, she said, "Whoa, OK, Tiger!" She was not going to allow herself to be mistreated, and I respected that.

One guy in our group named Peter once asked Carolyn to accompany him to retrieve his belongings from his ex-girlfriend's apartment. Carolyn was so offended by how his ex-girlfriend treated Peter when they went to collect his belongings that she threw her arms around him, planted a big kiss on him, and said, "C'mon, honey. We have to get going." That was her way of defending him by pretending to be his new girlfriend.

That was Carolyn to me. She was beautiful, independent, humble, approachable, a defender of others, not attention-seeking, and not materialistic. The last time I saw her was the following year, when she spotted me in the Student Union. She called my name and came over to say hi and introduce me to her boyfriend. I said hello, but I don't recall why the conversation was so brief.

I had not followed current events closely in the years leading up to her wedding, but I often wondered what had happened to her. Then I suddenly heard that JFK Jr. was engaged to a girl from Greenwich, Connecticut, named Carolyn Bessette. I don't know what happened in the years after college, but the girl I knew was someone special whom I would never forget, even if she had never become a Kennedy."

So, I visited Cumberland Island yesterday and here is my take on it. I am from SC and lived on GA coast 2 islands up from Cumberland for many years. I was living there when John and Carolyn got married so it was def what everyone was talking about at the time.

The wedding occurred in September and the high temp that day was 86. Cumberland is exceptionally hot. Yesterday while I was there the heat index was 109.

I could not make it up to the church as I had my electric bike and with the heat, my battery wouldn’t make it up there and back. I will def go back in the fall to make the trek up there to take some pics.

The island is beautiful. It is so pristine and rugged. The bugs are CRAZY BAD. The heat was unbearable and even at 86, it would’ve been stifling.

I just think they really could’ve found some other place that was private and less stifling. These were the days of birth of the internet and there was no TMZ, or social media. I know the story about Christine and then going there and my visit makes me think he def did that as a stab to her. I also think it was some sort of weird way of making Carolyn prove herself to him because I couldn’t imagine being in a wedding dress with all those bugs all over me.

I was going to attach a video of the main road that headed up to the church so you can really see how dense and wooded it is. Instead I have to attach screenshots of the video. I may put them on YouTube and link them below when I have a minute for anyone who is interested.

John F. Kennedy, Jr. and Sheryl Crow attend a Grammy party at the Rainbow Room on February 26, 1997 in New York. Carolyn was not in attendance. In the third photo, John is photographed alongside his friend from the Manhattan DA office, Kevin Hynes.

Fun fact: At the 1991 Grammy Awards, John F. Kennedy Jr. received a nomination for Best Spoken Word or Non-Musical Album for narrating his father’s Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Profiles in Courage. He ultimately did not win the award.

Why were all the flags at half mast?

John F Kennedy, Jr was never in the military. He was never Secretary of Defense. He was never elected to anything least of all the presidency.

John photographed at the beach in Hyannis Port on July 11, 1992.

“John used to walk to the post office every day, just after he'd taken a shower. He'd wear just a towel wrapped around his waist and no shirt." - Hyannis Port resident.

“John had a checkered history of combining showering and cooking; his attention deficit disorder tended to sabotage that kind of multitasking. We never let him forget the time he had been fresh out of the shower with a towel around his waist when he fired up the grill to make us hamburgers. He'd turned around and lost his towel, causing Seamus to drily remark, “I thought you were making us hamburgers, John, but it looks like we're getting wieners instead." - Kathy McKeon

This photo was taken in 1998 and shows Sasha’s daughter on John’s arm, with a woman standing behind him. It continues to raise questions on this app and others about whether John was single or married at the time.
Before jumping to conclusions, I encourage everyone to take the time to review the available evidence. It’s hard to imagine what John and Carolyn must have gone through while trying to navigate their new marriage under the constant scrutiny of paparazzi and gossip tabloids that often fabricated or sensationalized stories about their relationship.
Even nearly 27 years after their tragic passing, these rumors continue to resurface and be questioned as though they were facts. They deserved the opportunity to live their lives without relentless harassment and endless speculation. At the very least, they deserve to be remembered with fairness, compassion, and respect.

Since JFK Jr. dated women with similar features, I asked ai to combine them all into one woman and it's basically SJP.

Right is Chat GPT.

Top left is Google a.i.

Bottom left is my edit.

Do you think it's accurate? 🤔🧐