Let's say they all lost their power/technology or whatever makes them strong, turn into a regular human (that isn't capable of fighting back and winning against butcher) and are threatened to be killed by him (knowing butcher has been chasing them since the beginning for revenge). Who are the most and least likely to cry like toddlers and beg, and who would first start asking butcher to let them eat his shit on live TV?

- Superman

- Batman

-Spiderman

- Thragg

- Omni man

- Invincible

- Walter white

- Goku

- Godzilla

- Saitama

- Pre season 5 writing Homelander

+ Any other character you want

We're deciding this shit once and for all so we never have to think about this stupid bullshit ever again.

Alright, y'all, you've had enough, I've had enough, but it's time to examine this question critically one last time, look at the common angles and reframings, and arrive at a final conclusion on the two button debate (spoiler, red voters are wrong)

The original button question is not really about finding a mathematically “correct” answer. Its purpose is philosophical. It exists to expose how you view other people.

More specifically, it asks a single underlying question:

> Do you believe humanity is fundamentally selfish, or fundamentally altruistic?

That may not be the first thing people consciously think about when they encounter the hypothetical. Many red-button advocates focus only on guaranteed self-preservation. Many blue-button advocates focus only on maximizing survival overall.

But whether people explicitly realize it or not, their choice ultimately depends on what they believe everyone else will do; that, in turn, depends on what they believe human nature is.

---

The Original Prompt

> “Everyone on earth takes a private vote by pressing a red or blue button. If more than 50% of people press the blue button, everyone survives. If less than 50% of people press the blue button, only people who pressed the red button survive. Which button would you press?”

The two most common responses are predictable.

The first is:

> “Red is the obvious answer, because it guarantees your survival regardless of what anyone else does.”

The second is:

> “Blue is the obvious answer, because a simple majority allows everyone to survive.”

Immediately, the argument splits into two competing moral frameworks.

Red-button advocates accuse blue voters of recklessly gambling their lives for no reason:

> “Blue voters are morons because they are risking death when they could simply guarantee their own survival.”

Blue-button advocates accuse red voters of selfishness:

> “Red voters knowingly choose the option that results in deaths when universal survival is possible.”

---

The Endless Reframings

The debate then spirals into countless reframings:

• The blue button becomes “voluntarily entering a death gamble.”

• The red button becomes “voting for a dictator who kills non-supporters.”

• The blue side becomes “jumping into a woodchipper unless enough others do too.”

• The scenario becomes poison, seesaws, spikes, drowning chambers, and so on.

But most of these reframings distort the original structure of the problem rather than clarify it.

---

The Real Issue: Risk

The real issue underneath all of this is risk, specifically:

1. What creates risk,

2. What accepts risk,

3. And what pushes existing risk onto others.

To understand the button dilemma properly, those three things have to be separated.

---

The Apple, Orange, and Gunman

Lets Imagine a simple situation.

Before I go on, It is important to note here that this analogy is not meant to directly mirror the original button hypothetical. The purpose of the apple, orange, and gunman examples is only to isolate and demonstrate the mechanics of risk itself: where risk originates, who accepts it, and who transfers it onto others. Any connection drawn back to the button scenario is not meant as a one-to-one analogy between apples and buttons or gunmen and voters, but purely as a framework for understanding the moral structure of imposed risk.

Onwards:

You are offered an apple and an orange. Under normal circumstances, neither choice carries any danger. Choosing one fruit over the other is morally and physically neutral.

Now introduce a gunman.

The gunman says:

> “If you choose the apple, I will shoot you.”

Now the apple appears “risky.” But importantly, the risk does not come from the apple itself. The apple did not create danger. The gunman did.

The apple merely became associated with an externally imposed threat.

If you still choose the apple, then you are accepting risk, but you are not creating it.

Now modify the scenario again.

There are now two people in the room. The gunman says:

> “If either person chooses the apple, I will shoot both of you.”

Now the situation changes morally.

Choosing the apple still does not create the danger, (the gunman remains the source of risk) but choosing the apple now does two things simultaneously:

• it accepts risk for yourself,

• and it pushes the existing risk onto the other person.

That distinction is critical.

---

Returning to the Button Hypothetical

Now return to the original button hypothetical.

Red-button advocates frequently blame blue-button voters for their own deaths:

> “If blue voters die, it’s because they chose the risky option.”

But this framing collapses under scrutiny.

The button system itself introduces the danger. Neither side created the rules. The hypothetical already exists before anyone votes. The implementer of the system, the one enforcing the consequences, is the original source of risk.

The question then becomes:

> Which choice merely accepts risk (and from who?), and which choice pushes risk onto others?

To answer that, it helps to isolate the button effects themselves.

---

Isolating the Buttons

People often obsess over the “50.1% majority” threshold, as though that number itself contains the moral meaning of the scenario. But the threshold is arbitrary. Majority mechanics only matter because everyone is required to participate.

Remove that assumption and the structure becomes clearer.

Imagine that anyone who would have voted red instead abstains entirely.

Now only blue votes exist.

Blue automatically becomes the majority, and the result is:

> Everyone survives.

Notice what this means:

Blue, in isolation, contains no lethal consequence whatsoever. If only blue votes exist, nobody dies. This remains true regardless of how small a minority blue voters would otherwise represent. A single person voting blue, a thousand, a million, or a billion, if blue is the only vote cast, the outcome is always identical: everyone survives.

Now reverse the situation.

Imagine anyone who would have voted blue instead abstains entirely.

Now only red votes exist.

Red automatically becomes the majority, and the result is:

> Only red voters survive.

Therefore, everyone who abstained dies, because they did not vote red.

This demonstrates something important:

> The lethal outcome is tied to red victory conditions, not blue victory conditions.

Blue does not inherently contain death.

Red does.

This is why it is inaccurate to frame blue as “the dangerous option.” The danger is not built into blue. Blue only becomes dangerous because red voters create the conditions under which blue voters are excluded from survival.This completely disqualifies any reframing that presents blue as such, such as the blender and woodchipper reframing, the train reframing, the poison politician reframing... pretty much every reframing red pushers love to peddle.

---

# “But Red Voters Didn’t Create the System”

This leads to the common red-button defense:

> “But red voters didn’t create the system.”

And strictly speaking, that is true.

• Red voters did not design the buttons.

• They do not tally the votes.

• They do not personally execute the losers.

The implementer of the hypothetical created the danger.

But this does not absolve red voters morally, because moral responsibility is not limited only to originating harm. There is also responsibility for distributing harm.

Returning to the gunman example:

The person choosing the apple did not create the threat, but they still pushed the existing danger onto the second person.

Likewise, in the button scenario:

• Blue voters accept risk for themselves,

• while red voters push the existing risk of the system onto blue voters.

That is the key distinction.

Blue voters are not choosing death.

They are choosing universal survival conditional on cooperation.

Red voters are choosing guaranteed personal survival conditional on excluding others.

That is why accusations of selfishness toward red voters are not merely emotional rhetoric. They follow directly from the structure of the hypothetical itself.

It cannot be denied that pressing red guarantees your survival regardless of outcome. But that guarantee comes at a cost:

your safety is achieved by participating in a condition where non-red voters are abandoned to death if your side wins.

That is the definition of self-preservation at others’ expense.

---

The Real Core of the Debate

And once that point is established, the debate loops back to the original philosophical core:

> What do you believe about humanity?

Red-button advocates fundamentally assume that enough people are selfish that cooperation cannot be trusted. Their worldview treats self-preservation as the only rational response because they expect others to behave selfishly too.

Blue-button advocates fundamentally assume that enough people are capable of cooperation that universal survival is achievable.

---

The Polling Problem

This final point becomes especially visible whenever real-world polling enters the discussion.

Large online polls asking this hypothetical routinely show blue winning *decisively*.

And yet red-button advocates almost always dismiss this evidence with some variation of:

> “People are only choosing blue because the vote isn’t real.”

or

> “They’re virtue signaling.”

or

> “If lives were actually on the line, everyone would choose red.”

But this response is revealing.

Even when presented with evidence that large numbers of people claim they would cooperate, red-button advocates refuse to believe it. Their worldview requires assuming hidden selfishness beneath outward altruism.

In other words, they cannot believe humanity is genuinely cooperative, because they themselves are unwilling to cooperate.

---

Conclusion

And that ultimately brings the entire discussion to its conclusion.

The red position only remains morally defensible if one begins with the assumption that humanity is fundamentally too selfish to cooperate. Under that worldview, the choice collapses into a simple survival calculation: either guarantee your own life or gamble it away. If that assumption about humanity is true, then red becomes pragmatically understandable.

But that assumption is subjective, speculative, and impossible to prove in advance.

What can be examined objectively is the structure of the choice itself.

And structurally, red voters are not merely “protecting themselves.” They are securing their own survival through a framework that knowingly transfers danger onto others. They participate in, and benefit from, a condition where nonparticipants in their strategy are left to die.

• Blue voters accept risk for the sake of universal survival.

• Red voters avoid risk for themselves by externalizing it onto everyone else.

That is why the repeated attempts to frame blue as the uniquely “reckless” or “irrational” option fail under scrutiny. The actual moral burden lies with the side choosing exclusionary survival.

So while the hypothetical does not produce an absolute mathematical proof of morality, it does reveal something uncomfortable:

outside of the assumption that humanity is irredeemably selfish, the red position becomes increasingly difficult to morally justify.

And that is why red advocates so often retreat back to cynicism about humanity itself. It is the final refuge of the argument.

Once the assumption of universal selfishness is removed, pressing red ceases to look like mere rational self-preservation and begins to look exactly like what blue voters accuse it of being: selfishness elevated above collective survival.

And to be perfectly clear: choosing blue is not a sacrifice. It is a bet that your survival and everyone else's survival are the same bet. Red is a bet that your survival requires everyone else's survival to be someone else's problem. That distinction is the moral core of the entire question.

Jimmy from Moutwashing or The Deep from The Boys?

So it started with my dad wondering the origins of the "i think therefore I am" and the topic swapped to the qu and I explained how there evil and shi but my dad put a good question "do they think we are sentient" since they can do all this shit like how the gap between the qu and humans are like of humans to rats but we exepirement on rats all the time and that evil is subjective and moldable so we only consider our definition of evil but what about them are they evil aswell

Please don't bully me I haven't read the books

I mean Rumpelstiltsken was the one who nearly changed the timeline and everything but did they really have to kill his homeboy like that?

Homelander, Starlight, The Deep, Queen Maeve, Black Noir, A-Train, Translucent from The Boys

nina einstein (code geas) uncle ruckus (boondocks)

Rules:

- 1 scenario per action, but a single scenario can justify multiple actions.

- You can't skip past an action you can't justify to get to the next one, if you can't justify it you stop at it.

- The scenario doesn't need to be set in the real world, you can include sci-fi and fantasy stuff. Mind control scenarios are however ruled out.

- Only the person performing the action needs to be justified in them, any other character present can be as evil as you want.

As pictured, both TV series versions
No outside material

Name's:

Vought International from The Boys

Umbrella Corp from Resident Evil

Buy n Large from WALL-E

Nightmare Enterprises from Kirby Right Back At Ya

Weyland Yutani from Alien

Imagined Order from Fortnite Storyline

Name's and origins:

Cecil Stedman from INVINCIBLE

Goku from Dragon Ball Z ep 181

Only vote for one character.

The two characters with the most upvoted comments will be eliminated.

The original 3 Evils of Mediums here