r/patentlaw

Can someone explain to me how patent litigators with no scientific education are effective at their job?

First-first, sorry for the typos/stream of consciousness. This is a topic that comes up often in this sub, but in a different way. Young students without scientific backgrounds are often asking how to get into patent law and being told they can not do prosecution and to try litigation because it doesn’t require scientific understanding. My post is from the perspective of someone in prosecution that is mid career. Thus, I’m not looking for career guidance but looking to understand more about how litigation in highly technical fields works.  

 First, let me preface this: I am not trying to offend anyone. Senior patent litigators in big law or mid/small firms have proven themselves and have the wins and career history to back it up. They’ve saved tens of billions for their clients. They have worked extremely hard to get to where they are in a challenging profession. They are machines. They can learn complex subject matter quickly. I admire their abilities. Nobody doubts they are effective.

I am not questioning their ability to do their jobs; they obviously do them well. I am confused about how they do them so effectively (sans any scientific understanding).

My attempts to rationalize it go like this. I notice that the litigators without scientific credentials are all older. 60+. Patent litigators that are new (30-45 years of age) in big law all seem to have PhDs (or maybe MS) in their scientific discipline (this is life sciences). Are the senior litigators leaning on the scientific strength of their younger associates?

Is this correlation between younger age and increased scientific credentials simply because the bar has been raised since there is so much more competition for jobs now than there was 40 years ago? If you have people without scientific backgrounds doing this successfully at the highest level (the senior folks), why are all the new people required to have PhDs rather than simply be the best litigators/lawyers?

Some of the pharma lit I see deals with complex chemistry. Of course much of it deals with semantic, non-technical issues as well, but those aren’t the ones that I’m worried about. The depos involve complex answers coming from expert witnesses that are elite scientific researchers. They are being deposed by someone with a humanities/art degree and zero scientific background. How do they even depose someone like this effectively? How do they capitalize on something the witness says if they do not understand the subject matter and are following a script prepared by their PhD-having colleagues and their own hired experts on their side? Is that what is going on when the non-scientific lawyers depose an expert witness scientist (the script following)?

 

Granted, these older lead litigators have young associates on their teams that all have PhDs. They have their own expert witnesses helping them formulate their own stategies. I'm wondering if its really them doing the technical aspects of the work. Do these senior litigators operate so effectively by cataloguing all of the possible topics that could come up during a depo and having this information in the hopper ready to use it if needed? If so, that is very impressive to have such command of so much material at the ready. Seems far easier to just understand the material technically and respond to a witness using that approach (combine with the pre-prep of course).

Like I've sat in on meetings and hearings with some of these litigators that have non technical backgrounds and you can't have a conversation with them about "what ifs." You can certainly try to but it never seems to go that deep into such issues. They seem to have a script they stick to.

I know part of being a good patent lawyer is having the ability to learn new things quickly, on the job, but learning chemistry or molecular bio takes a solid 4-5 years of study to even reach the undergrad level which isn't enough imo.

Again, no shade, I'm just confused about how it works. Do you think that 20-40 years from now patent litigators in highly technical fields (pharma let's say) will all have PhDs (or Msc)? Do you think the fact that there are elite patent litigators for pharma with no scientific education will be a relic of the past eventually, or is it simply not needed and we will contiue to see patent litigators without scientific credentials litigating pharma patents? Is it their skill at lawyering (digesting large amounts of complex material and having it mentally filed at-the-ready combined with knowing how and when to utilize it) that will dominate and ensure that they have a place for decades to come in this field?

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u/Jackoose — 5 hours ago

How would you rate the difficulty of jumping from mid law patent prosecution to big law patent prosecution?

Is it as difficult as it is for other types of law?

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u/Religion_finder — 10 hours ago

Relocating UK to mainland Europe (European patent attorney)

Does anybody have any tips for a UK citizen looking to relocate to mainland Europe as a European patent attorney? Where would I find job vacancies?

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u/kelalek — 19 hours ago

Obligatory patent practitioner PPA

Hi,
Does anybody knows if I have to pay for patent practitioner to file PPA in USA? Im not from USA and I was just about to file ☹️

u/Distinct-Machine6209 — 23 hours ago

In-house

Has anyone gone in-house after becoming a partner at a law firm? If so, what was that experience like and what level did you come in as if no prior in-house experience

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u/Forsaken-Ad923 — 1 day ago

Bar exam: what was your strategy?

Posting here because I got zero feedback on the patenbarexam subreddit.

Wondering if those that passed the exam can share their general strategy to answer some questions I have:

  1. how many total hours did you study?
  2. how long did you study for in terms of weeks/months?
  3. what study materials did you use?
  4. how many times did you take the exam before you passed?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

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u/sirenyti — 1 day ago

If the US government contributed 187 billion dollars to the research and development of 354 out of the 356 pharmaceutical drugs approved from 2010-2019 does that mean it can use its “march in” rights at any moment and set the prices for these patented drugs?

ineteconomics.org

If I have a non-stem bachelor's degree, is there a way for me to become eligible for the patent bar without getting a whole new degree?

I'm about to start my last semester of undergrad, and I want to go to law school in a couple years. As Ive learned more about the different types of law, I've gotten kind of curious about patent law. The thing is, I've majored in communications and minored in business. If I was to change my major to some type of engineering or science, it would delay my graduation by at least one, probably two years.

Would my communications degree plus taking several STEM classes at my local junior college before(or after) law school make me eligible for the patent bar? Or does it specifically require the junior and senior level STEM coursework that comes with being a STEM major?

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u/1800Davenport — 2 days ago

Patent and technology

What is in your opinion the newest /recurring challenge in the patent technology or with attorneys , which AI could solve?

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u/TheSidhaPath — 3 days ago

Selling ideas

I have a range of innovative ideas for in demand problems. I’ve drawn up the solutions. I just don’t have time to manufacture them.

If I get a pre patent and then pitch to companies provided they sign a nda to sell my idea for a 2% royalty then repeat with the other two ideas I have/ is that a legitimate business?

My ideas are to do with sleep.

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u/Navy_Pink — 3 days ago

Thinking about law school

Hello…I’m an experienced patent agent considering taking the lsat. If I qualify, I’ll go to a part time law school ranked 40+. I don’t have a lot of time to practice and my diagnostic test didn’t get me a high score. Given my work experience, what’s the lowest lsat score do you think I can get away with? I’m just looking for anecdotal evidence. Do you know of anyone who scored low on the lsat but still managed to get admission in a part time program?

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u/ginny_weasley84 — 3 days ago

Patent Agent Internships?

I currently work full-time in engineering/tech and have been looking into becoming a patent agent. Before committing months to studying for the patent bar, I want to see if I’d actually like the work/lifestyle.
Are internships, shadowing, or part-time opportunities a thing for someone who already works full-time? And for patent agents in NYC is the career worth it? How’s the pay, work-life balance, and hybrid/WFH flexibility?

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u/Few-Cat-7598 — 4 days ago

Technical knowledge in Patent Litigation

for context I’m an EE patent examiner and just curious on patent litigation.

for prosecution you can’t practice unless you have the technical background and knowledge.

but for litigation it’s not necessarily required. but I was wondering how much does it help by having technical breadth to breakdown the patents that are being litigated over. How much technical material do litigation teams have to sort through when their on a case?

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u/Ak035000 — 4 days ago

School of Fish 2027

Has anyone heard back after applying to school of fish? In a post from last year people said they got an acceptance email by the second week of august. I'm getting kinda anxious now that I haven't gotten an email which means I didn't get in

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u/Far-Measurement8478 — 4 days ago

Looking for advice on my invention

So I’ve created a new invention and am curious on which route I should take. I want to start selling it soon. I am young and this is a solo project. I have money but obviously not like a massive corporation that can just throw money away. Ideally I’d like to try and get everything done for as cheap as possible. I also have no proof that people will like it. I personally see potential obviously but not sure how it will hit the market.

Should I file for a provisional? I’m kind of new to all this and don’t have much knowledge but I know a utility patent is like 15 grand. Also, any recommendations for a patent search? An attorney told me $2,000 for one which I feel like is a lot to dish towards that but I will. Overall just looking for opinions from people like you with knowledge about all of this. Thanks in advance.

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u/Odd_District_6205 — 3 days ago

What is the best next steps

Hi everyone, I’m currently a sophomore EE student with an interview coming up with my school’s tech transfer office for a student position. I’m interested in eventually becoming a patent/IP attorney, and I’m trying to figure out the best path after graduation.

Would it be better to work as a technology specialist or patent agent for a few years before going to law school, or go straight to law school after graduating?

I’m not very interested in working as an engineer for 10+ years before going to law school, as someone previously recommended to me. However, I’m not opposed to spending a few years in industry if having engineering experience would significantly improve my chances of finding a job in patent/IP law later on.

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u/Keateatime — 4 days ago

Patent illustrator

I started my own patent illustration company a few weeks ago, and man, is it difficult to lock down new clients. Does anyone know of any forums or external websites I should be participating in to help find work?

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u/best_fxiend — 6 days ago
▲ 7 r/patentlaw+1 crossposts

PLI group!

Looking for people interested in doing the PLI prep course. If we can get a group of 20 or more we can get up to 40% off of whatever price you’d normally pay. (AKA if you qualify for the student or unemployment discount, you would receive the % off on top of the discount).

EDIT: fill in this Google form if interested! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdh3EW77ok70aR3i2-W9-1gwPN0p\_B10ODkUKQB8m3kBDxhrA/viewform

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u/Budget_Resolution_72 — 6 days ago
▲ 45 r/patentlaw+1 crossposts

Patentdle - guess the invention from its patent

Hi! I built Patentdle, a daily game where you guess the invention from its patent filing. Would love to hear your feedback!

patentdle.com
u/medhus — 7 days ago
▲ 3 r/patentlaw+1 crossposts

Help! Trying to find the best inexpensive way to study for the Patent Bar

Hello! I am just starting out on the Patent Bar journey and I am really taken aback by the pricing of the PLI and other resources since I am a student right now. Is there any way I can maybe share or get the PLI for cheaper. I know we get a 1000 off with a student email but that still leaves for 2800 dollars i don't have! Is there anything that I can do to access good study materials regardless of my financial limitations?

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u/abenny0 — 7 days ago