So I'm curious: How was attendance today at your chapel, the first Sunday after everything that happened last week? And what was the mood like?
Obviously compared to a normal holiday weekend in the US/Canada and a normal summer weekend in Europe/other places.
My guess would be 90%+ of the before days (losing a few fence-sitters), but I am curious how it played out for everybody.
Hey everyone,
I'm making a post out of a recent interaction I had in this sub, in the hopes that it will help some people who are dealing with the old "appeal to authority" fallacy that, on top of pouring out of r/catholicism to a frankly embarrassing (and worrisome) degree, is also the first line of attack from many friends, family members, and even complete strangers, who have sadly already decided that they hate you, but are still looking for the reason why.
It's probably the most popular one that other Catholics use to criticize us, because profoundly uninformed people assume that because obedience is so foundational to Catholicism, we must therefore not expected to critically think in the process of "obeying." This involves a clever bait-and-switch regarding the meaning of "obedience," and also denies certain obvious external realities, the most important of which is the existence of external and objective truth at all.
Of course it makes sense that the ones not in favor of critical thought are the most reliant on a logical fallacy! Anyways, without further ado, I hope this helps you to stand strong in the Truth.
The claim: By appealing to the "eternal Magisterium" over the living one in an attempt to demonstrate contradictions in teachings, the SSPX is necessarily preferring their own "private judgment and self-reliance" to the truth, as expressed by the one with the authority to declare it.
My response:
Yeah, so that's where the trouble lies. If we take your logic to it's natural conclusion, a person is completely incapable of recognizing reason for themselves, a premise which is refuted by nature itself, along with Scripture and Tradition.
A person with your line of reasoning has no way of knowing right from wrong at all, without someone ever telling you at any given moment in time. For example, is homosexuality bad? "I don't know, what did the Pope last say about the matter - not the older Popes, the ones that aren't important now - what did the current one say, and if he hasn't said anything, what did the one say right before him? I certainly don't want to be accused of disobedience now, so it doesn't matter what happened to Sodom and Gomorrha, it doesn't matter what the Church did in the late 1800's, and it doesn't matter what Thomas Aquinas said in the Summa. It also doesn't matter how clearly these teachings were stated, because I can't get that information without reading it, and I'm never not biased! Necessarily, I need to know what disobedience is currently considered by the Magisterium, because that is the only thing I can really know, because it is the only thing being told to me by a living authority. Oh is that right? The current Pope is permitting Pride Masses? Well, if the Holy Father allows it, then who am I to judge? I am a good Catholic."
This is a total denial of Thomistic Realism, and effectively an embrace of Naskh, or the Islamic principle of "abrogation," wherein beliefs are not held as articles of Faith because they are eternal, transcendental, and externally true, but rather because the living jurisprudential organ in the religion has decided that the old ruling has been replaced. It is a historically unprecedented and necessarily arbitrary way of ruling in Catholicism, and it's also very effeminate. God did not make us to only understand truth through compliance to a direct superior. He made us to have an innate ability to recognize truth that is so powerful, even the pagans would have no excuse on judgment day (St. Paul's letter to the Romans).
So your denial of the use of reason to identify truth in accordance with the Natural Law does two things.
Firstly, it actually prevents you from ever meriting anything. Because blind and unquestioning obedience is not actually an act of the will, it's just going through motions. Why would you ever make an act of the will to adhere your own will to the Pope's, when your will - or as you say, "your opinion" - is never possibly relevant? You empty yourself, which is a Catholic idea, but instead of filling yourself with Christ deliberately, you fill yourself with whatever the Pope decides to fill you with. That's why people with your line of reasoning must treat the Pope as essentially infallible in all things - an assertion which is not true now, and never was true. Because if the Holy Father is wrong about things, then you'd have to admit that you may be swallowing errors willingly in the name of "obedience," and then contend with the possibility that your conception of obedience, on top of not being Traditional at all, has formed you into a mindless pawn of bad actors. Real obedience, from the root obediere, involves "listening comprehension," or the active participation in the process of submitting to an order.
Secondly, it disincentivizes critical thought, historical literacy, and personal initiative when it comes to the Faith. Why would you possibly require any of those things, when coming to conclusions of any kind is "private judgment and self reliance?" Just like a factory worker has no need for a liberal arts degree, because we don't need a university filling a lineman's head with nonsense when he just has to stay in his lane and rivet like a good boy, neither does the "assembly line" Catholic that you conceive of here have any need for the tools involved in the decision making process. You tell yourself that the gates of Hell will never prevail, so what's the point in being a check or balance to the wider institution, which doesn't need "you input?" But by denying the nature God gave you through practiced and purposeful ignorance, you reject God's invitation to make you an instrumental cause of grace and truth - things you cannot possess or ever truly know, respectively - and instead give up the chance to do that, in the same way you no longer truly merit anything.
This is the ethos of the Arian during the Arian crisis who "just followed their lawful Bishop" (and the Arian Bishops WERE materially valid and also in possession of their Sees!), the ethos of the magistrate on the panel that executed St Joan of Arc, the ethos of the superior of St John of the Cross who beat him and locked him in the bathroom, and it's also the ethos of anyone else who ever did anything morally reprehensible in the name of "just following orders." History necessarily becomes the story not of people who were virtuous or reprehensible, but is rather reduced to people who did and did not obey. With this false notion of obedience meaning compliance, the highest moral good is doing what you are told, no matter what it is.
Additionally, while the conclusion of the logic of your argument is just dreadful, and itself serves as a kind of refutation, the evidence for the falsity of your assertion also lies in its lack of workability at scale. Because of how language and communication work, and given the fact that the meaning of an intended message is never "mind melded" perfectly into your brain, you can never be really certain you have received the message that is being sent to you by anyone else at any given time, unless you perform a process of interpretation and internalization that looks an awful lot like the thing you appear to be trying to make fun of the SSPX for.
OK, so for example, the Pope says "all religions are pathways to God." You say you can't compare and contrast that with other statements in Tradition, because that would be private judgement or self-reliance, and that's "schismatic rubbish." And yet, to accept the statement "all religions are pathways to God" as being "true" because you were authoritatively told it, even to unthinkingly obey, you are necessarily relying on your own personal understandings of "all," "religions," "are," "pathways," "to," and "God." In a supposed act of humility, you claim you are removing yourself from the equation; but it's "communication 101" that the transmission of an idea from one person to another requires buy-in from both parties. That's just how reality works! Welcome to the Natural Law. Otherwise, how do you know you have those definitions right? What if the Pope's understanding of "pathway" is different from yours? What if that makes you disobedient? What is obedience really anyways? Again, the end point of your flawed premise, which is that there can be no private judgment or self-reliance, is that you deconstruct the process of receiving a teaching to an impossible and frankly absurd degree.
So that reduces your argument from it's splendorous height of "I'm a good Catholic who doesn't question things, like the bad schismatics who use their own judgment" to the completely uninspired and mediocre logic of the World, which is "I make sure my private judgment and self-reliance are perfectly aligned with the person who tells me I am good if I do exactly what they say, and I am constantly vibe checking to make sure they approve with whatever it is I am doing, so that I know it is right."
And that's a sad thing to see people pass off as "Catholicism" today. It looks a lot more like how a dog tries to please their owner.
Had some random thoughts on a flight yesterday, thought I’d collect them here, and see what you guys think.
As we all know and accept that the Roman pontiff has supreme universal and immediate power over the whole church[1].
And suppose we do away with the present canonical confusions about the extent of the excommunication, and assume that the holy father named each bishop, priest and faithful of the society that adheres to the “schism” and excommunicated them.
Can he do so validly?
The power bestowed upon the successors of Peter is of divine authority.
But divine authority cannot do evil. For example, it cannot command you to sin. Therefore if the holy father commands you to commit adultery, he does so invalidly.
Therefore it all comes down to a very simple question, is the work of the society objectively good.
We obviously would say yes. The preservation of the traditional priesthood and all that it entails is an objective good at this age.
Therefore sanctions put on such an objective good cannot be from divine authority, as God cannot do evil, and it cannot be valid, it is null and void.
Therefore when the superior general and the six bishops went ahead with the consecrations, did they disobey the authority of the Roman pontiff? They did not, they disobeyed an unlawful use of that authority. And they still remain obedient to all lawful use of that authority.
And if the consecrations is not an act of disobedience, what is the just cause for the excommunication of the priests of the society, and the faithful, and the taking away of the sacraments of confession and marriage? There isn’t any. And doing these sanctions with no cause is an evil, therefore it cannot be valid either.
This is how we can say that we are not disobedient, and not in schism.
Therefore, we can be rest assured that at the moment of our death, we will not be judged for the sin of disobedience and being separated from the communion of saints for having supported and remained with the society.
As regrettable as is our current situation, I hope I’ve demonstrated that we can avoid the more regrettable situation of believing ourselves to be in disobedience and separated from Rome. And whatever the situation with the nature of the See of Peter, we are not the authority, the society is not the authority, only God has the authority over the Pope to remedy the current mishaps. And however He does that is unbeknownst to us, but we can remain hopeful and joyous awaiting His justice.
[1]Pastor Aeternus: “We teach and declare that the Roman Church possesses a superiority of ordinary power over all other churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff is truly episcopal, ordinary, and immediate… over each and all the churches, and over each and all the pastors and faithful.”
St. Athanasius lived in the 4th century and was the bishop of Alexandria in Egypt for 46 years. Banned from his diocese at least five times, he spent a total of 17 years in exile.
He even suffered an unjust excommunication from Pope Liberius (325-366) who was under Arian influence. It is a cold fact of history that Athanasius stood virtually alone against the onslaught of heretical teaching ravaging the Church of his day, begetting the familiar phrase, “Athanasius contra mundum“, that is, “Athanasius against the world“.
I've never been to an SSPX Mass or activity, but I'm sorry about the hate ya'll are getting over this week's events. Don't let the shameful behavior of a very vocal minority taint your perception of non-SSPX Catholics, or the Catholic faith in general, for that matter. Know that many of us are praying for you - God bless you all.
(I study religion)
I’m asking this in good faith and would appreciate respectful responses.
I’m not interested in converting to the SSPX or Catholicism or debating anyone’s faith. I’m simply trying to better understand their (or your) views.
How does the SSPX generally view relationships with Jewish people? I’m aware they have criticisms of Nostra Aetate, but I’m curious about their official position today versus the opinions of individual members.
How do they approach dialogue with Jews, and how do they distinguish their theology from prejudice or antisemitism?
I’m especially curious because Christianity has Jewish roots—Jesus Christ was Jewish, as were the Apostles and the earliest Christians—so I’m interested in how the SSPX understands that historical and theological relationship.
There are certainly aspects of the traditional Catholic Church that I appreciate. However, as a Jewish person, I’d like to understand how the SSPX generally views Jewish people. Also, I appreciate the current church too, and I study religion as I said, it’s a beautiful thing. I am aware of disagreements with Islam in the SSPX.
Thanks in advance for keeping the discussion respectful. All respectful answers and dialogue are appreciated.
(To share my perspective: I don’t believe Jewish people are collectively responsible for Jesus’ death. It was a Roman execution, and I don’t believe I or any Jewish person today should be held responsible for something that happened 2,000 years ago. I have great respect for Him and all the people who died for the faith. No one deserves to be punished and persecuted for their faith at all and ever.)
To be clear, I am not talking about people who come here in good faith to discuss and even criticize the SSPX. I have no issue with that and I think it is healthy to hear these criticisms.
But the sub is being raided by people who are just spamming every thread with ”lol you’re excommunicated chud! Submit to Rome!” They are clearly not discussing in good faith and are just here to stir the pot. This is seriously impacting the quality of the sub and I think banning them is justified.
Are you worried that you are excommunicated for "formal adherence to the schism?"
Don't be.
One, because that's a ridiculous phrase with no defined scope, even if it was authoritatively promulgated. It wasn't defined in '88, and still isn't defined now.
Two, because it wasn't authoritatively promulgated. See the video, as well as the following:
https://bigmodernism.substack.com/p/the-aftermath-a-catholics-guide-to
Now, could Pope Leo "rectify" this with his own signature? Yes, he certainly could. But until he does, if he does, all of the uncharitable vitriol pouring out of r/catholicism is founded on an unquestionably false premise; like, sadly, most of what they have ever even believed about the Society, apparently.
But remember; our enemy is not flesh and blood, but the powers and principalities, and the spiritual wickedness in the high places. So let us pray for our misguided brethren, who having no logical argument rooted in factual information, instead mock us with insults, crown us with uncharitable slander, scourge us with calumnies, and give us the cross of humility to bear in the face of such incredible impertinence from totally ignorant people. Let's carry it with class, and offer it up for the very people who gleefully place this heavy burden on us.
"Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful, and will hear your prayer." - St. Padre Pio
Let's pray for mercy for ourselves, and for our brothers and sisters who do not yet understand.
Knowing that none of you are Catholic anymore
The Superior General
To His Holiness
Pope Leo XIV
Ecône, 3 July 2026
>
Most Holy Father,
The notification of the decision taken by the Holy See regarding the Society of Saint Pius X, signed by His Eminence Cardinal Fernández, has reached us and is now a matter of public knowledge.
It appears to us that this decision once more brings to light the profoundly tragic context in which the universal Church finds herself. What the Society of Saint Pius X has done, and will continue to do, is nothing other than an extraordinary initiative for the salvation of souls, amidst the doctrinal and moral confusion into which the Church is plunged. We in no way claim to substitute ourselves for the Church, and we have no ambition other than to remain faithful to her.
In conscience, we did not believe we could evade the moral duty we owe to souls, as we have already explained, both privately and publicly, to Your Holiness.
We had asked for bread, that is to say, a measure of understanding for a sincere case of conscience—an act of fatherhood directed not so much toward the Society of Saint Pius X as toward souls, promising You to form them into true sons of the Roman Church; unfortunately, we received a stone.
We had asked for a fish, that is to say, the possibility of temporarily obtaining the necessary means to continue forming good priests, so that they might pursue their mission of making Our Lord known to souls; unfortunately, we received a serpent.
We had asked for an egg, promising to return it as soon as possible. Indeed, the holy Tradition that we preserve within souls belongs to the Church, our Mother—and not to the Society of Saint Pius X—and we are certain that one day a Pope will wish to employ it for the good of the universal Church; unfortunately, we received a scorpion.
We had asked to be instructed and confirmed in the faith of all time; instead, we have been declared schismatic a second time.
Despite the sanctions levelled against us, the Society of Saint Pius X sincerely renews the promise it has already expressed to Your Holiness. Allow me, in this regard, to freely reiterate what I have previously stated:
“The Society promises You […] to devote all its energies to preserving Tradition and placing it at the service of the Church. In doing so, the Society of Saint Pius X does not merely maintain ancient customs; it fosters and preserves priestly vocations, religious vocations, and large, deeply Christian families—in a word, everything that manifests the vitality of the Church, of grace, and of the Catholic faith. Our intention is not to offer the Church a museum of antiquities, but rather the entirety of Tradition: fruitful, a source of spiritual life, embodied and lived out within souls.
[...] I am certain that one day You yourself, or one of Your successors, will be able and willing to utilise this service, the offering of which, within the Church and for the Church, constitutes our sole reason for being.” (Personal letter addressed to His Holiness on 21 November 2025)
But above all, the Society of Saint Pius X promises You today that it will not receive these new sanctions—objectively unjust and invalid—with bitterness or revolt.
These recent condemnations, like those of the past, strike at what we hold most dear: our attachment to our Mother, the Roman Church. Yet, even in this trial, all things must work together for the good of souls and of the Church herself. Therefore, these condemnations compel us to love Holy Church even more, and to provide for her needs with all our strength, now more than ever. For this very reason, the Society of Saint Pius X willingly offers up the suffering caused by these new sanctions for the good of the universal Church and of Your Holiness.
We are certain that one day You yourself, or one of Your successors, will wish to adopt the program of Saint Pius X: “To restore all things in Christ,” Instaurare omnia in Christo. On that day, the
Holy Father will discover in the Society of Saint Pius X not a nest of serpents and scorpions, but a small army of loyal sons, ready to do anything to sustain Him in the restoration of all things in Our Lord, and to vindicate before all mankind the imprescriptible rights of Christ the King over all souls and over all nations.
On that day, the Holy Father will discover, with great joy and profound consolation, authentically Catholic souls whose bond with the Church was never founded upon the shifting sands of an ambiguous dialogue, but upon the rock of the faith of Peter.
We ask the Most Holy Virgin Mary to hasten the dawning of that day, and we pray, above all, that Your Holiness may experience this joy and consolation as soon as possible.
In the meantime, if You are able, despite Your recent decision, bless us as Your sons. For us, nothing has changed, and nothing ever will change.
Trusting in Divine Providence, from which nothing is hidden and which reads into the depths of every man's heart,
I remain, Most Holy Father, your most devoted son in the Lord.
https://fsspx.news/en/news/letter-holy-father-regarding-decree-dicastery-doctrine-faith-59956
Hey everyone. Please send me your best takes on the Mass being appropriate to attend post the Decree.
I want more substance besides “Null and Void” I’m an SSPX attendee with great frequency who was brought into it at a time of a very “SSPX light” culture both with the priests and laity at my chapel. It has been a shock to see the casualness and humor that extremely childlike and cringe society faithful have spoke about the desire of being excommunicated presents. It presents a shocking witness into a flaw I see that’s more evident than previously. Apologies getting off track. Anyone has anything about Mass attendance being okay or acceptable without sin or canonical penalties send my way.
God bless