u/Agitated_Smoke6945

I’m not talking about Kalash paganism or Himalayan Shamanism or religions that weren’t considered to be Hindu traditionally(even though many of them are legally Hindu). However, you can some of these a mention if you’d like.

I’m talking about modern Hindu Sampradayas and Panths.

I think it would most likely be Shrautas even though they’re not really a ‘sect’ as per my knowledge. I personally don’t know much about them other than the fact that they’re ritual specialists and have their own Sutras.

I have asked this question in the comments before.

From what I gather, kings of Vijaynagar, Gurjara Prathiharas, Reddis, Kakatiyas, Nanda, etc. were all Shudras.

So why is it that Shivaji required an elaborate genealogical record(which he faked anyways) to prove his kshatriya status? Was it because he specifically had to lead a Dharma Swaraj? Or am I missing something with respect to the other rulers?

I’m aware of Svar, Pitriloka, Dyaus, Antariksha, etc.

How do the cosmology and afterlife in the Vedic Samhitas work exactly?

I’m aware of Svar, Pitriloka, Dyaus, Antariksha, etc.

How does the cosmology work exactly?

Basically this. Pakis will claim that they have 6 peaks(bunker ridge, saddle ridge, etc.) which I have legit never come across in an official document.

Im aware we re-captured tiger hill, Tololing and a few others I can’t recall the names of right now.

Disclaimer : I'm new to this sub as well as indian history in general, so kindly take everything here with a grain of salt. I would love to be corrected :)

This a common question which is built on the notion of Bhakti being some sort of social equalizer. It is something that even I have pondered about in the past. While it was certainly egalitarian and preached spiritual equality(as in anyone can attain moksha), it did not exactly end the heriditary caste system.

Before I explain my answer to the the question, I'd like to put forth a pre-requisite.

A Hindu can fit into either of the two categories : Householder(Grihastha) or Ascetic(Sannyasi/Sadhu). There are obviously stages in between them but this is the broader idea.

There is also a misconception of Gurus and Pandits being the same. A Pandit is someone who is well versed in Shruti and performance of Vedic rituals. A Guru, in the context of Hinduism, is simply a spiritual master who can guide his/her students to attain a certain level of spiritual enlightenment.

Now let's try and look into the question putting youreself in the position of a Guru

You're a philosopher/Guru in 13th century India and are devoted to say, Surya, and have composed some literary works.

You want to spread your ideas of spiritual realization to everyone.

You also believe in Vedic authority : the belief of vedas being apaurusheya(authorless) and infallible. So a certain set of vedic rituals are a must.

Due to this being the medieval period, beleif in a heriditary caste system as the social order is the norm amongst householders. Ascetics have renounced material pleasures for spiritual gain, so it doesn't really affect them.

You begin preching to everyone, including dalits, and thereby start a Panth(spiritual path). A Guru-Sishya tradition is created.

However, because of your belief in Vedic authority, you need the orthodoxy to perform Vedic rituals as only they have the knowledge on how to go about them. They will be entitled to a certain level of power in that aspect.

You want to institutionalize these teachings to legitimize and formally organize this Guru-Sishya tradition. This requires a certain level of monetary input as well as land.

For that you will need to convince the elites(nobles, royals and so on) who are mostly Kshatriyas or Kshatriya-adjacent. They will be powerful in this aspect.

Even though you're not very pleased with the rigid social structure, you're prioirity is to spread spiritual enlightenment.

Eventually you create a Surya sampradaya with pandits as the ritualists along with that Guru-Sishya parampara which is not exactly discriminatory based on caste.

As time goes on, you will not be there anymore and the orthodoxy, who are very powerful due to the reason mentioned previously, will start dictating things. So will the elites. This will eventually lead to the caste discrimination that existed prior.

To avoid this, you will either need to drop your belief in vedic authority(like Basavanna or Guru Nanak) or try and convince the orthodoxy to be egalitarian with respect to teaching rituals. The orthodoxy would be quite stubborn and refuse to do so as they firmly believe in birth-based varna, leaving no other choice if you're stance on Vedic authority is firm. Hence, the social order will remain the same.

This is my reason as to why many of those Bhakti movements could not end casteism even if their founders were against it.

A(a)p or water seem to be mentioned quite a bit in the Rigveda and is extensively used in Hindu rituals today. Varuna is frequently associated with it as well.

Prior to creation, it mentions the primordial waters. Vrtra is associated with blocking waters. Not to mention, the Sapta Sindhu.

**Reposted From Rigvedichinduism**

No, this is not one of those Vaishnava theories of "Indra is Post saaar". Rather, it is quite the contrary.

I am quite new to this space and would to learn more about Vedic beleifs in a more non-secretarian and histroic manner. So kindly take my speculation with a pinch of salt.

Now the reason I ask this question is because we have different descriptions of Indra's lineage. I feel like I am missing out on some metaphysical elements in the Samhita(which certainly exist). Then again, historians suggest that we have lost so much of the veda, which would create a bunch of missing links.

Here it says he was born of Purusha's mouth

>

“The moon was born from his mind; the sun was born from his eye; Indra and Agni were born from his mouth*, Vāyu from his breath.”*

Here it says that Dyaus is his father and earth is his mother.

>

"Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here. This great earth is my kin and Mother. Between the wide-spread world-halves is the birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ within it."

If he was directly born from the mouth of purusha, why would Dyaus and Prthivi be his parents? It seems like there are multiple forms of Indra. This is even attested in the following hymn :

>

"In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his only form for us to look on. Indra assumes many form by his Maya, for his Bay Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred." (Griffiths)

“Indra, the prototype, has assumed various forms, and such is his form as that which (he adopts) for his manifestation; Indra, multiform by his illusion, proceeds (to his many worshippers), for the horses, yoked to his car are a thousand." (H.H Wilson)

I've attached two different translations for this one as the first is more abstract than the second and can possibly be interpreted differently.

Now I would like to know, who exactly is Indra in the Rigveda? from what I understand, he seems like the central Indo-European style hero figure who is the warrior manifestation of the ultimate. I say this because IMO Rigveda seems to be kathenotheistic and the Steppe nomads(and most bronz age IE cultures in general), who had to go into battle quite often, invoked him the most, in turn making him the most important god.

No, this is not one of those Vaishnava theories of "Indra is Post saaar". Rather, it is quite the contrary.

I am quite new to this space and would to learn more about Vedic beleifs in a more non-secretarian and histroic manner. So kindly take my speculation with a pinch of salt.

Now the reason I ask this question is because we have different descriptions of Indra's lineage. I feel like I am missing out on some metaphysical elements in the Samhita(which certainly exist). Then again, historians suggest that we have lost so much of the veda, which would create a bunch of missing links.

Here it says he was born of Purusha's mouth

>च॒न्द्रमा॒ मन॑सो जा॒तश्चक्षो॒: सूर्यो॑ अजायत । मुखा॒दिन्द्र॑श्चा॒ग्निश्च॑ प्रा॒णाद्वा॒युर॑जायत ॥ चन्द्रमा मनसो जातश्चक्षोः सूर्यो अजायत । मुखादिन्द्रश्चाग्निश्च प्राणाद्वायुरजायत ॥(RigVeda 10.90.13)

“The moon was born from his mind; the sun was born from his eye; Indra and Agni were born from his mouth*, Vāyu from his breath.”*

Here it says that Dyaus is his father and earth is his mother.

>द्यौर्मे॑ पि॒ता ज॑नि॒ता नाभि॒रत्र॒ बन्धु॑र्मे मा॒ता पृ॑थि॒वी म॒हीयम् । उ॒त्ता॒नयो॑श्च॒म्वो॒३॒॑र्योनि॑र॒न्तरत्रा॑ पि॒ता दु॑हि॒तुर्गर्भ॒माधा॑त् ॥ द्यौर्मे पिता जनिता नाभिरत्र बन्धुर्मे माता पृथिवी महीयम् । उत्तानयोश्चम्वोर्योनिरन्तरत्रा पिता दुहितुर्गर्भमाधात् ॥((RigVeda 1.164.33))

"Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here. This great earth is my kin and Mother. Between the wide-spread world-halves is the birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ within it."

If he was directly born from the mouth of purusha, why would Dyaus and Prthivi be his parents? It seems like there are multiple forms of Indra. This is even attested in the following hymn :

>रूपं-रूपं परतिरूपो बभूव तदस्य रूपं परतिचक्षणाय |इन्द्रो मायाभिः पुरुरूप ईयते युक्ता हयस्य हरयःशता दश || (RigVeda 6.47.18)

"In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his only form for us to look on. Indra assumes many form by his Maya, for his Bay Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred." (Griffiths)

“Indra, the prototype, has assumed various forms, and such is his form as that which (he adopts) for his manifestation; Indra, multiform by his illusion, proceeds (to his many worshippers), for the horses, yoked to his car are a thousand." (H.H Wilson)

I've attached two different translations for this one as the first is more abstract than the second and can possibly be interpreted differently.

Now I would like to know, who exactly is Indra in the Rigveda? from what I understand, he seems like the central Indo-European style hero figure who is the warrior manifestation of the ultimate. I say this because IMO Rigveda seems to be kathenotheistic and the Steppe nomads(and most bronz age IE cultures in general), who had to go into battle quite often, invoked him the most, in turn making him the most important god.