u/AnxiousEnquirer

They say "an acorn is not a tree" but I finally found a concise, self-evident response: "an acorn is an oak." When an oak flower gets fertilized, it produces a zygote, which develops into an embryo inside an acorn, which then falls. Each acorn contains a new member of the oak species.

My dream is to have such a concise, self-evident response to every argument. Like these:

"You're a clump of cells too"

"It's not your body"

"Babies aren't conscious"

"An acorn is an oak"

Feedback welcome, but here's my attempt at a concise, watertight argument against abortion.

This part I'm feeling good about:

Pregnant women are mothers of children, and it is fundamentally wrong for mothers to cut off rather than protect their children, and therefore it is good for the state to ban all assistance in the destruction of those children.

This part I'm actively trying to improve:

If, during heroic efforts to save the lives of both a woman and her child, the doctors' actions indirectly result in the death of the child, there should be no prosecution.

PL: abortion should be illegal because it kills human beings.

PC: it's already illegal to kill human beings, I hope you're not killing people because you think it's legal!

PL: humans are being killed in abortion and it's legal.

PC: sperm are getting exterminated too.

PL: sperm aren't human beings, gametes are not organisms, zygotes are.

PC: abolitionists don't include zygote in any of their definition of human being.

PL: they all include fertilization, which includes zygotes.

PC: they don't even include blastocyst or embryo

People like to point out that everyone who's promoting abortion rights wasn't aborted, and it's so true. It's like suicide to be advocating for the right to kill what who you used to be. It's like if someone was exonerated on death row but advocated for summary executions of suspected criminals. Or someone who rose out of poverty arguing that the poor should be euthanized. Or if someone was saved by wearing a seatbelt but goes and advocates to make them optional. It's why they exist, they exist because of that seatbelt. If it weren't for that seatbelt they would've died. If it weren't for death row, they would've died. If it weren't for restrictions on abortion, they might not still be here to argue for fewer restrictions.

There is a ton of equivocation in the abortion debate. It used to be that even Planned Parenthood differentiated between abortion as an elective procedure, and miscarriage as an accidental result, and even removal of ectopic pregnancies as outside of abortion services. Now the pro-choice people call everything an abortion, in what appears to be an attempt to prove that trying to regulate any "reproductive health" will therefore harm access to all of it (even removing dead remains). For example, when I say "abortion is wrong" I'm talking about the first two or three in this list, but I see some pro-choice rhetoric that wants to include all these.

Can we come up with some better terms like maybe these?

- Choosing to prevent live birth (incompatible with prolife)

- Euthanasia, e.g. for anencephaly (I think incompatible with prolife)

- Killing and/or destruction necessary to mother's survival (theoretical situation)

- Pre-viable birth necessary to mothers survival (I think compatible with prolife)

- Removal of remains (compatible with prolife)

- Spontaneous miscarriage (compatible with prolife)

Below I'm posting my current understanding of some actual examples which have been put forward to convince even prolife people to want to avoid prolife legislation. Please provide feedback, I am sure my understanding is limited, and my aim was to be concise.

2/2025 Adriana Smith (Georgia): lifesaving care

30 years old, 9 weeks pregnant, went to the hospital with an intense headache, went home with medications, the next day was rushed back to the hospital gasping for air, with clots in her brain and was declared brain-dead within hours. Because the baby is entitled by law to life support, the hospital is keeping the mother on life support. The family wants the baby to survive, but they didn’t appreciate not having a choice. The state attorney general says the law does not require this, but the hospital stands by their decision in light of the law. The C-section was performed in June, the mother was removed from life support, and last report was the baby named Chance was still in the NICU “making a bit of progress” as of late August. 

10/12/2023 Taysha Wilkinson-Sobieski (Indiana): lacking doctors

A woman who died from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. She had bad cramping, went to the closest hospital which used to have a labor-delivery unit that had closed for poor staffing, then they sent her to the regional hospital 23 minutes away which did have a labor-delivery unit, but it was too late. They're saying the delay in time-sensitive care is due to a shortage of ob-gyn surgeons, which is due to the ban on abortions. We know about her because Binghui Huang at the Indianapolis Star is using her to promote abortion.

10/29/2023 Nevaeh Crain (Texas): doctor mistakes

18 years old, 6 months pregnant, with fever, vomiting, and sharp abdominal cramps. The first hospital said it was strep throat. The second hospital 12 hours later said it was a UTI, despite signs of sepsis, and the fetal heartbeat was present, so she was fine to go home, though she was too weak to walk. On a third hospital visit, the OB insisted on two ultrasounds to confirm fetal demise before she could go to ICU. She had sepsis and organ failure, and died within hours. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

6/12/2023 Porsha Ngumezi (Texas): doctor mistakes

35 years old, 11 weeks pregnant, experienced severe hemorrhaging due to a miscarriage. The standard protocol in cases of miscarriage with hemorrhage and counting disorder is D&C, but she was given misoprostol which was their local protocol for miscarriage, and died within 3 hours. After she died, the doctor (falsely?) documented that nurses and other providers had described the bleeding as “minimal.” If there was fear of prosecution, they wouldn't have prescribed abortion medication. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

4/3/2023 Elizabeth Nakagawa (California): insurance mistake, survived

39 years old, 10 weeks pregnant, miscarried, D&C scheduled, but cancelled because Tricare was refusing to pay for it. While the doctor appealed, she got cramps and bleeding, went to the ER, hemorrhaged for four more hours, then doctors performed the D&C. Tricare insists medically necessary D&Cs were and are still covered, and should not have been denied. We know about her because Erin Edwards at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

12/2022 Mayron Michelle Hollis (Tennessee): doctor mistake, both survived 

32 years old, 8 weeks pregnant, diagnosed with C-section scar ectopic pregnancy and placenta accreta. Offered gel-injection abortion but refused. At 9 weeks she changed her mind, but the new law was taking effect, so doctors were hesitant and told her to go to Pittsburg. At 26 weeks, the placenta was attached to her bladder, so c-section and hysterectomy were performed as standard practice, and she needed multiple blood transfusions as expected, but both she and the baby survived. Surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy is neither abortion nor murder, and is not prohibited by any state law. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

11/12/2022 Candi Miller (Georgia): illicit drugs

41 years old, with lupus, diabetes, and hypertension felt pregnancy was too much of a risk, so she ordered abortion pills online. She started having a lot of pain from infection, so she took a lethal amount of pain medicine, including fentanyl. She did not go to the hospital because she was afraid of being prosecuted. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

8/19/2022 Amber Nicole Thurman (Georgia): doctor mistake

28 years old, attempted medication abortion out of state and returned home without follow-up. Some dead fetal remains were retained from her twins, so she went back to a Georgia hospital, where she needed a D&C in accordance with standard protocols. Doctors delayed for 20 hours, for unidentified reasons, possibly including an attempt to stabilize her prior to surgery. They finally began D&C because her organs were failing, but they started with open abdominal surgery, then did D&C, then started hysterectomy, which is when she died. The doctors were never held liable. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

7/10/2022 Yeniifer Glick (Texas): lack of prenatal care and ambulance mistake

27 years old, 31 weeks pregnant, with a history of morbid obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and pulmonary edema, couldn’t afford to get insulin, or enough of the blood pressure medicine she needed. When her blood pressure was out of control and causing her lungs to fail, an ambulance came but spent 2 hours trying to calm her down before leaving for a hospital 5 minutes away. She died on the way to the hospital. It took four minutes to start the cesarean but the baby died as well. Many like to claim that early on in the pregnancy, abortion should have been offered to her which may have saved her life, but better ambulance care could've saved both their lives. We know about her because Stephania Taladrid at the New Yorker is using her to promote abortion.

9/6/2021 Josseli Barnica (Texas): doctor mistake

28 years old, 17 weeks pregnant, she was experiencing a miscarriage, and her cervix was open, but there was a fetal heartbeat for up to 40 hours, so they waited for the heartbeat to stop, then removed the baby. She was discharged home, but all fetal products were not removed, so she had heavy bleeding, was readmitted 3 days later, and died from sepsis. We know about her because Kavitha Surana at ProPublica is using her to promote abortion.

I'm at the point where I wish I didn't spend so much time on Reddit but I'm having a hard time committing. Anybody else commiserate or have tips? I feel like this xkcd cartoon: https://m.xkcd.com/386/