u/CormundCrowlover

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Darns_Gilvio

Does this character and his family exist in the mod? I’ve found this among my drafts (from about a year ago!) so apparently I couldn’t find him then, and am not able to check whether he exists or not for the next few days so I’m posting before I forget again to suggest adding them if they don’t.

So, something very small and very obvious but I’ve never done a full reread so this has eluded me until I came across this searching for something. As we learn later on, Mance is glamored as bag of bones and bag of bones is glamored as Mance and burned in his stead. For all his talk, Mance is very quick to kneel, the second to kneel among a thousand.

>Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven.

But since the first to kneel is Sigorn, a Thenn, who are known kneelers and not part of the so called “free folk” Mance is the first among the free folk to kneel.

>Jon's smile died. "I might if I could trust him. Sigorn blames me for his father's death, I fear. Worse, he was bred and trained to give orders, not to take them. Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey."

>"Free folk is what they call themselves. Most, at least. The Thenns are a people apart, though. Very old." Ygritte had told him that. You know nothing, Jon Snow. "They come from a hidden vale at the north end of the Frostfangs, surrounded by high peaks, and for thousands of years they've had more truck with the giants than with other men. It made them different."

"Different," she said, "but more like us."

"Aye, my lady. The Thenns have lords and laws." They know how to kneel. "They mine tin and copper for bronze, forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it. A proud folk, and brave. Mance Rayder had to best the old Magnar thrice before Styr would accept him as King-Beyond-the-Wall."

His knees must’ve been itching I guess.

Disclaimer: This is not a Ned + Ashara = Allyria theory, not exactly, it is merely pointing out of some facts and observations and in conclusion coming to a "theory" that is very much related to it and would be in support of it but again, not a N+A = A theory itself.

While we learn the name of Allyria Dayne as early as ASOS which was released in August 2000, Lyarra Stark is never once named in the main series, when asked about who is Ned’s mother in june 1999, little over a year before ASOS' release, GRRM simply said “Lady Stark. She died“ without naming her. Only in World of Ice and Fire which was released in 28 October 2014 we finally get to learn her name, meaning not only is she given a name well over a decade after Allyria Dayne is named but it also happens only after that Ashara is revealed by Barristan to have "looked to Stark" and given birth to a daughter, said to be stillborn, in ADWD which was released 12 July 2011, so near three and a half years before TWOIAF.

Combine this with Allyria Dayne telling the love story of Eddard "Ned" Stark and Ashara Dayne which was then told to us through Edric "Ned" Dayne, the obvious reverance of Daynes to Eddard “Ned” Stark, going so far as the moniker given to their brave young lord being also “Ned“ just like Eddard Stark's when there is at least one similar nickname, “Edd” exists in the universe and his name Edric, ( Ed + Ric wealth/riches + king/ruler) also coming from the Stark family from Eddard (Edward Ed+Ward, wealth/rich guard/ward) and his father Rickard (Richard Riks+Harduz, king/ruler, brave/hard), it seems like that out of universe, Lyarra's name is derived from the very similarly named Allyria's on purpose and in universe Allyria is very likely named after Lyarra, possibly being a derivation of it like we see with several names such as Willam (Willem, Willam, Willum), Jon (Jon and John, as in John the fiddler), Bryan (Bryan, Bryen) Brynden(Brynden, Bryndon, perhaps both derived from Brandon?) Byren(Byren, Byron), Caspor(Casper, Caspor), Clarice(Clarice, Clarisse).

LS, being not Lady Stoneheart but Lyarra Stark, wife of Rickon Stark and AD is Allyria Dayne.

Disclaimer: This is not an Ned + Ashara = Allyria theory, not exactly, it is merely pointing out of some facts and observations and in conclusion coming to a "theory" that is very much related to it and would be in support of it.

While we learn the name of Allyria Dayne as early as ASOS which was released in August 2000, Lyarra Stark is never once named in the main series, when asked about who is Ned’s mother in june 1999, little over a year before ASOS' release, GRRM simply said “Lady Stark. She died“ without naming her. Only in World of Ice and Fire which was released in 28 October 2014 we finally get to learn her name, meaning not only is she given a name well over a decade after Allyria Dayne is named but it also happens only after that Ashara is revealed by Barristan to have "looked to Stark" and given birth to a daughter, said to be stillborn, in ADWD which was released 12 July 2011, so near three and a half years before TWOIAF.

Combine this with Allyria Dayne telling the love story of Eddard "Ned" Stark and Ashara Dayne which was then told to us through Edric "Ned" Dayne, the obvious reverance of Daynes to Eddard “Ned” Stark, going so far as the moniker given to their brave young lord being also “Ned“ just like Eddard Stark's when there is at least one similar nickname, “Edd” exists in the universe and his name Edric, ( Ed + Ric wealth/riches + king/ruler) also coming from the Stark family from Eddard (Edward Ed+Ward, wealth/rich guard/ward) and his father Rickard (Richard Riks+Harduz, king/ruler, brave/hard), it seems like that out of universe, Lyarra's name is derived from the very similarly named Allyria's on purpose and in universe Allyria is very likely named after Lyarra, possibly being a derivation of it like we see with several names such as Willam (Willem, Willam, Willum), Jon (Jon and John, as in John the fiddler), Bryan (Bryan, Bryen) Brynden(Brynden, Bryndon, perhaps both derived from Brandon?) Byren(Byren, Byron), Caspor(Casper, Caspor), Clarice(Clarice, Clarisse).

Theoh should have a bastard or two, namely the sons of the miller’s wife.

It is rather too on the nose that at least one of them is his son with Theon being called a kinslayer despite acknowledgment to the fact Rickon and Bran are not his brothers.

>"Not us." Rowan grabbed him by the throat and shoved him back against the barracks wall, her face an inch from his. "Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer." He smiled through his broken teeth. "You won't. You need my tongue to get you past the guards. You need my lies." Rowan spat in his face. Then she let him go and wiped her gloved hands on her legs, as if just touching him had soiled her. Theon knew he should not goad her. In her own way, this one was as dangerous as Skinner or Damon Dance-for-Me. But he was cold and tired, his head was pounding, he had not slept in days. "I have done terrible things … betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me … but I am no kinslayer." "Stark's boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know." That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller's sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller's wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again.

Almost a lifetime ago(well, exactly one lifetime for me or near about) and in fact well before most of us were born, the author George Martin with a double R released the book Game of Thrones in which the main character Eddard Stark uttered these words

>She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."
That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to 

“Father to queens”, not to a queen but queens. Sansa was already going to be a queen in the original draft but does this mean Arya wa going to be a queen as well? Jon’s queen considering the draft so ultimately meaning Jon becoming king?

Moreover, considering Sansa never got to be a queen, does this have the horrible implication that the ending(Queen Sansa) indeed came from GRRM? I dunno George, this doesn’t look good.

Both are claimants to the throne, one is the last known member of the previous dynasty and the other is the brother of the new king while also being descended from previous dynasty and not only through just a more recent female member but the founder of his house is also generally regarded a bastard son of Targaryens, at least during his lifetime. Of course with Dany being seemingly barren and Stannis' only child being a sickly girl there's an issue of succession but once Jon's identity is revealed, they could come to a compromise, Dany would accept her bastard nephew as a successor and from what Melisandre tells us -the two being very similar to eachother and Stannis liking Jon- Jon could become an adoptive son he never had for Stannis.

Such compromises like different branches of a family marrying to resolve a succession issue happen both in our world and ASOIAF like two different Stark branches marrying in Lyarra and Rickard Stark, both descending from branches involved in the power struggle that we were supposed to see in She-wolves of Winterfell, another book that never came.

While I’m not aware of any such thing happening in ASOIAF(does Stannis-Renly count?), different claimants to a title coming to an agreement where one claimant is to rule for life and the title then passing to the other one like Stephen of Blois who became king of England making another claimant, Henry II the son of his cousin Mathilda as his heir after some fighting. I can’t remember names but it also happens in Kingdom of Jerusalem and while not exactly the same a similar thing happens in Croatia between Byzantine Empire and Kingdom of Hungary where Emperor Manuel I who had no sons takes the future king Bela III, younger brother of king Istvan III as his hei, marrying him to his daughter and is given Croatia by Istvan III but this fails when Manuel has a son and Bela succeeds his brother who died childless, Bela III, however, allows Manuel I to keep Croatia for his lifetime. So there’s historical precedent in our world.

Stannis wants to knit the realm together, including the wildlings and marriages is a good way of doing it. We see Jon doing exactly that with Alys Karstark and Sigorn Thenn, though the main intention with this marriage may not have been this -I can't recall if we've ever been given his primary reason- he is well aware of this would help achieving it considering he sends Gerrick Kingsblood's daughters to Selyse for marriage.

>Red-bearded Gerrick Kingsblood brought three daughters. "They will make fine wives, and give their husbands strong sons of royal blood," he boasted. "Like their father, they are descended from Raymun Redbeard, who was King-Beyond-the-Wall." Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew. Ygritte had taught him that. Gerrick's daughters shared her same flame-red hair, though hers had been a tangle of curls and theirs hung long and straight. Kissed by fire. "Three princesses, each lovelier than the last," he told their father. "I will see that they are presented to the queen." Selyse Baratheon would take to these three better than she had to Val, he suspected; they were younger and considerably more cowed. Sweet enough to look at them, though their father seems a fool.
"A northern maid and a wildling warrior, bound together by the Lord of Light." Ser Axell Florent slipped into Lady Alys's vacant seat. "Her Grace approves. I am close to her, my lord, so I know her mind. King Stannis will approve as well."

Selyse also does this, marrying Gerrick’s daughters to her uncle and wanting to marry Val to Ser Patrek

>"Gerrick has graciously agreed to give the hand of his eldest daughter to my beloved Axell, to be united by the Lord of Light in holy wedlock," Queen Selyse said. "His other girls shall wed at the same time—the second daughter with Ser Brus Buckler and the youngest with Ser Malegorn of Redpool."

"Sers." Jon inclined his head to the knights in question. "May you find happiness with your betrothed."

"Under the sea, men marry fishes." Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. "They do, they do, they do."

Queen Selyse sniffed again. "Four marriages can be made as simply as three. It is past time that this woman Val was settled, Lord Snow. I have decided that she shall wed my good and leal knight, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain."

"Has Val been told, Your Grace?" asked Jon. "Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman's kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy."

One would expect Stannis to have thought of doing so as well, Axell Florent certainly thinks that Stannis would give the Stannis' nod of approval^(TM) to the marriage of Alys and Sigorn.

>"A northern maid and a wildling warrior, bound together by the Lord of Light." Ser Axell Florent slipped into Lady Alys's vacant seat. "Her Grace approves. I am close to her, my lord, so I know her mind. King Stannis will approve as well."

And in fact he did think of it, he tries to marry Val to Jon as part of a once in a lifetime package deal WWW: Winterfell + Wildling Wife

>"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders. The one who calls himself the Lord of Bones, some of their clan chiefs, the new Magnar of Thenn. Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"
"My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."
"Good," King Stannis said, "for the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess."
Perhaps Jon had ridden with the free folk too long; he could not help but laugh. "Your Grace," he said, "captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women. Whoever weds her had best be prepared to climb in her tower window and carry her off at swordpoint ..."
"Whoever?" Stannis gave him a measuring look. "Does this mean you will not wed the girl? I warn you, she is part of the price you must pay, if you want your father's name and your father's castle. This match is necessary, to help assure the loyalty of our new subjects. Are you refusing me, Jon Snow?"

When that fails he considers Wyman Manderly in a later chapter

>"Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse." The letter that Lord Wyman Manderly had sent back from White Harbor had spoken of his age and infirmity, and little more. Stannis had commanded Jon not to speak of that one either.
"Perhaps his lordship would fancy a wildling wife," said Lady Melisandre. "Is this fat man married, Lord Snow?"
"His lady wife is long dead. Lord Wyman has two grown sons, and grandchildren by the elder. And he is too fat to sit a horse, thirty stone at least. Val would never have him."

Then in a later chapter he teases Jon with the possibility of Justin Massey and Richard Horpe getting Winterfell and therefore Val as well, offers him the WWW deal once again and when Jon refuses once more, he declares that his intention is to give Winterfell to Arnolf and though never outright stated, most likely Val as well, all within the same conversation.

>All of you did not seem to include Lady Melisandre. The king's red shadow. Stannis called to Devan for more lemon water. When his cup was filled the king drank, and said, "Horpe and Massey aspire to your father's seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?" 
"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North."
How many times will he make me say it? "My sword is sworn to the Night's Watch."
Stannis looked disgusted. "Your father was a stubborn man as well. Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow. If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman."

He also says that once(if) he saves Arya, he'll find her a better match and in that same chapter Jon thinks how important it is that Stannis should act swiftly due to the diversity of his army.

>The Night's Watch was sworn to take no side in the quarrels and conflicts of the realm. Nonetheless, Jon Snow could not help but feel a certain satisfaction. He read on.
… more northmen coming in as word spreads of our victory. Fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters from the deep of the wolfswood and villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen, survivors from the battle outside the gates of Winterfell, men once sworn to the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, and the Tallharts. We are five thousand strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day. And word has come to us that Roose Bolton moves toward Winterfell with all his power, there to wed his bastard to your half sister. He must not be allowed to restore the castle to its former strength. We march against him. Arnolf Karstark and Mors Umber will join us. I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the Wall until I can return.
...
He wondered how many men old Crowfood would bring to the fray, and how many swords Arnolf Karstark would be able to conjure up. Half the Umbers would be across the field with Whoresbane, fighting beneath the flayed man of the Dreadfort, and the greater part of the strength of both houses had gone south with Robb, never to return. Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?
Not likely. Stannis was a deliberate commander, and his host was a half-digested stew of clansmen, southron knights, king's men and queen's men, salted with a few northern lords. He should move on Winterfell swiftly, or not at all, Jon thought. It was not his place to advise the king, but …

Each proving that Stannis is well aware of the importance of marriages in accomplishing his goal of knitting his realm of Wildlings, Northman and Southron together as much as he can.

So this begs the question, why did he not arrange any marriages with the hill clansmen whose daughters he was to praise the beauty of?

>"Ask, I said, not beg." Jon pulled back his hand. "It is no good sending messages. Your Grace will need to go to them yourself. Eat their bread and salt, drink their ale, listen to their pipers, praise the beauty of their daughters and the courage of their sons, and you'll have their swords. The clans have not seen a king since Torrhen Stark bent his knee. Your coming does them honor. Command them to fight for you, and they will look at one another and say, 'Who is this man? He is no king of mine.' "
"How many clans are you speaking of?"
...
"These mountain lords will not hinder my passage?"
"Only with feasts. Each will try to outdo the others with his hospitality. My lord father said he never ate half so well as when visiting the clans."
"For three thousand men, I suppose I can endure some pipes and porridge," the king said, though his tone begrudged even that.

Were their porridges so unendurable compared to the magnificence of the meals of Three Finger Hobb's whose cooking is so good he is a worthy candidate for being a Lord Commander? Is that why he wrote them off from the marriage list?

>Stannis ground his teeth. "It is not my wish to tamper with your rights and traditions. As to royal guidance, Janos, if you mean that I ought to tell your brothers to choose you, have the courage to say so."
That took Lord Janos aback. He smiled uncertainly and began to sweat, but Bowen Marsh beside him said, "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?"
"Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." The look the king gave Slynt was cold. "Janos was hardly the first gold cloak ever to take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos?"

"The cook. That wonderful cook. Here at the end of the world everything was cold, barren, and lifeless, except for the meal hall..."

But in all seriousness, why were there no marriages with the Hill Clans?