First of all, everybody knows that classic has smaller target audience than retail and is bound to be a more niche mode.

I see that the majority of classic players here long for a true ranked queue. Don't get me wrong, I would also love to have it, but I'm kind of worried about the queue times.

If we add solo/duo + potentially flex queue it means having 3 queues. Right now the queue is not terribly long, but I would safely assume that on avarage you have to wait about 5 min for a game (3-10 min from my experience on EUNE). It's not bad, but still noticeably longer than retail and the matchmaking is not without issues, potentially due to a smaller playerbase.

So the question is - realistically, do you think they will eventually add the ranked queue? Some argue that it will attract more players, but will it be enough to handle 3 separate queues? Personally, especially seeing how hesitant Riot is when it comes to discussing the addition of the ranked queue, it makes me feel like this might be the reason they don't want to add it. As a result, competetive players are stuck in one queue with casuals who want to test fun old tech, which has its issues, but makes the queue times managable. It could also be that Riot is focused on keeping classic "casual", they also talk about it a lot.

Do you think ranked queue is absolutely necessary and it will incentivise players to grind LP long term? If ranked doesn't lure enough players, would you sacrifice shorter queue times for a ranked mode?

EDIT: Also it's possible that the playerbase will grow as they add more champions. If that is the case, they could add the ranked queue after a few months when the playerbase is stable enough to support it.

Can you find a 2vs2 game? I've just watched a Xol showmatch on a 2vs2 map. I was positively suprprised that there are some interesting gimmicks like a crab you can defeat and capture. Not sure how to feel about the payload, it felt a bit weird.

Have you played it? How do you feel about it?

Okay, so to begin with he used to be my favorite champ back in the days, That being said, to my surprise, I really hate playing him in classic.

Full AD is awful early and gets hard countered by ignite + you get kited as hell and without upgraded ghost you barely do anything.

Off tank makes you more durable but your damage is terrible. It feels worse than AD crit and spamming Q felt like the only useful thing you can do.

Than we have AP, and it feels probably the best, you have a reliable combo QW (although the range is not amazing), but still, you fall of late-game when people have enough dps to blow your shield.

I remember the champion being rather unpopular, and I kinda see why now. He is also really simple to play kit-wise and most top-lane matchups feel insanely difficult.

Do you have any special tech to make him work? Especially AD Sion, he feels hopeless and unreliable.

EDIT: Success is obviously relative, I think for some games a good amount of sales is enough. But here I especially have in mind games with bigger ambitions that aim to function as a live service with DLCs and attempt to create these ‘forever games’ that are constantly updated and developed. 
EDIT2: I'm mostly focusing on brand new IP's, not sequels to already established classics.

The Zerospace discussion made me think about the state of the RTS genre and difficulties new games have to face. Here are my (maybe not super-insifhtful) thoughts:

1. RTS players are adults in their 30s/40s.

So two things here: Firstly, RTS players expect a finished product, not another EA flop that may or may not work. Secondly, we are used to the level of polish already established series provide like AoE, SC2, WC3, DoW and in the current enviroment most RTS games do not have the same funding and already established presence. Stormgate had 40m to make something good but it ended up in a disaster with mobile-like graphics, they completely misunderstood their audience and even the 1.0 release was unfinished af. For Zerospace, people have big expectations but the funding is not there. They postopned the release when Stormgate failed to polish everything and yet they still had to release it as an unfinished Early Access. The first impression has already been made. Adults don't want to bet on another half-baked RTS that is promised to "take over the genre".

2. RTS is a difficult genre to play
EDIT: This is primarily about PvP, especially 1v1 which seems to be the most popular versus mode.

In LoL you have one character you can focus on, you can rest on your way to lane, it’s way more chill. RTS is the opposite of that,  the most importance resource is your attention and there is constantly something you can do to optimise your gameplay. There is so much going on its mentally taxing. Is simplifying your game a good choice? Who knows, how simplified should it be to engage an avarage RTS player? The genre is notoriously difficult to take up and play due to different units, armor types, races, abilities. It’s difficult to lure new players who are not RTS veterans simply because the games are so difficut. This is especially true when it comes to PvP, campaign is way more managable because it doesn't have to be perfectly 'balanced'.

3. RTS players want different gamemodes

Everyone wants something different from an RTS. I think the most important thing is a good campaign. But then there is PvP 1vs1, multiplayer, PvE, custom games. Some players will ignore a game because it doesn’t have a competetive ladder, some only want campaign, some want to chill with friends.  It’s a lot to cover and you may spread your resources thin, especially if you’re a small studio. What doesn’t help is the obsession with esports, Stormgate pushed for it very early on, I think Zerospace is doing the same mistake. IMO,  RTS esports is dead. I mean, you have some established releases with ladder and leagues, but for an avarage player starts a 1V1 game, gets destroyed and doesn’t look back. It can work when you have a huge playerbase that covers different skill levels, but good luck doing that.

4. The duality of an RTS player

I feel like we want something new, crazy and experimental, but at the same time we want these spiritual successors. If you make sth new you risk it being too different from what players are used to, if you make a successor you risk your game being labelled as a cheap clone of an already great game. Zerospace and Stormgate have been pidgeonholed as SC2 clones by some, but I feel like nobody has an issue with Sanctuary Shattered Sun being a supcom successor. it's a fine line really.

5. RTS is difficult to design and balance

I like Warlord Battlecry 3. You have 14 races, its unbalanced but fun and wasn’t made with esports oriented PvP in mind. Some modern RTS games are obsessed with PVP balance and they suffer from more tame designs. I appreciate Zerospace’s mercenary factions, it is a crazy idea with a flying Cthulu and rocket launching Maran base. But I imagine playing on ladder might be terrifying, the game is fast and micro-oriented and there is so much going on. Do you design for pros or casuals? Do you design for micro or macro? You can't satisfy everyone.

6. RTS needs GREAT worldbuilding.

I didn’t care about Stormgate because the world was comically bad. The race design was offputting. If you make an RTS you have to make sure your world is interesting and nuianced. I had this issue with Zerospace when I looked at Grell – is it just temu Zerg? They are likely going to change their visuals so I am looking forward to it. Generally speaking I think Zerospace's world is way better than Stormgate, but still feel too Starcrafty from time to time.

TLDR

I think RTS should focus on singleplayer, cool factor, not PvP ladder grind. We should completely abandon the delusional Esports dream. The world has has to be fleshed out and it’s one of the important aspects of a successful rts. We have huge expectations based on high-budget gems we got during the RTS prime time. We want something new, but we keep returning to old gems that are already polished and new studios are forced to release in EA in an unfinished, offputting state. Campaign and PvE are CRUCIAL. If you spend your resources on balancing 1vs1 ladder esports dream you waste your resources if you’re not SC3. Singleplayer, world, cool facator>1vs1.

What factors do you think are CRUCIAL for a new release to succeed?

Do you think PvP should be secondary? It really feels sooo difficult to create a new RTS that is not a mp flop. I guess Tempest Rising was the most successful release (also, a CnC successor btw). Rooting for ZS, hope they make it to 1.0 as promised and maybe even develop the game a bit more after the final release.

I love what they did with the protectorate, the faction looks 10 times better after they revamped their looks. Xol looks amazing, Legion is also fine, but Grell... is boring.

I know it boils down to preferences, but my biggest issue is that most Grell units have this zerg-at-home feeling to them. Reaver = Ultra, Harbringer = Roach, Stinger = zergling, Vynthra = Hydra (I like her though), Boomer = Baneling.

My most disliked design is Weaver, just a spider. I like Mandragoras, the rest of units are kind of whatever (Behemoth has nice wings though). Keeper is unfinished I guess, so far it looks like a bigger Arkanid.

Overall, the look of Grell's samey dark-green units on the dark, cluttered grass gives me a headache (especially on the swampy map).

Buildings are okay I guess, I especially like the main one.

I don't know, do you like Grell?
I don't say they have to do it now, there are more burning issues, but I worry that when we get 1.0 it'll be too late for redesigns and we'll be stuck with a generic looking bug race with glowing bubbles, and to me it feels like there is a huge opportunity to lean more heavily into their symbiosis with plants and make something more unique.

Since Riot said that champions will be released in thematic patches, what other trios do you expect? They will give us ninjas, what will follow?

I feel like some trios we might see in the future might be:

Poppy, Xin Zhao, Galio - Demacian Trio (This one makes sense, 3 old champs roughly for 3 different positions)
Udyr, Volibear, Sejuani - Frelijord Trio
Yorick, Urgot, Nocturne - Nightmare Trio
Ziggs, Rumble, Orianna - Techy Trio (??? Maybe Fizz insted of Ori and we get Yordle Trio)
Vi, Caitlyn, Jayce - Arcane/ Piltover Trio (Would be weird to release Jayce with Cait though, but thematically they fit perfectly, maybe Ori instead of Jayce?)

There are tons of posibilities, I think Le Blanc may be released with Swain, and Morde with Hecarim. They may focus on making sure we have similar number of champs to play on each position or prioritising older releases rather than vibes. Any ideas?

First of all, we know that Yasuo cutoff is not set in stone

RiotFeralPony:
“We likely won't use the council to vote on what champs to release, however we could easily use it to gauge if people want more champs, or if we've had enough / need to slow down.

We have a few ideas of a cutoff point, but we have a long way to go until we hit that point”

Seeing people wanting to skip releases like Tresh, Jayce, Riven, Zed, Elise, stopping at s1/s2 champs made me really think about what the ideal cutoff should be. Here’s my opinion:

Since Classic encompasses roughly seasons 1-3, we should expect some variety in kit complexity. Classic =/= only basic champs with no mobility and point and click abilities like Taric and Sion. Especially S3 league was a mix of old and new. Honestly, my “classic” is S1 league, but it would be wrong to have S1 champs with S3 items. We know we are getting S1-3, Therefore, the cutoff should be somewhere in S3.

We shouldn’t deliberately nitpick champions who were released in S1-3 because they  ‘don’t feel classic’ e.g. Jayce, Riven. All champions released before the cutoff champion should be in the game. No case by case analysis. If we judged champs by their classicness, Lee sin, as the most modern old champion, should be deleted. Why give him special treatment? We shouldn’t make classic artificially more classic than it was. It’s impossible to reliably judge which champ feels classic enough.

To me, the cutoff should include as much pre-rework champions released before S4 as possible. In my opinion, the last release could be pre-rework Aatrox, but I would also be fine with the cutoff being simply Yasuo (so he wouldn’t be in the game, but we would have Jinx and Lucian).

Finally, the question of Asol. He is definitely too modern for classic (S6), especially the visuals, but also gigantic Q, E roams, unorthodox playstyle. He reminds be of the time where Riot was experimenting with adc/jaggernaut/mage reworks and they were really pushing the limits. But at the same time, he is the most modern champ to be entirely scrapped and reworked and these pre-rework kits are what people really love about classic. But then you could also argue why don’t we have juggernaut patch morde? He was also scrapped. So Asol: not classic, problematic, 99% against it, but I leave a small room for negotioation.

TLDR: No case-by-case champ selection, cutoff in S3, include as much pre-rework champs as possible, Aatrox could be the last release, but I am perfectly fine with every champ up to Yasuo as they suggested on Twitter. 99% no Asol.

So: Too modern for classic, outdated/OP for retail. All the in-between stuff.

For me, the three biggest things I would love to experience again, but we most likely won't see them in classic are:

1. Taric 3.14/15 version with armor scalings on passive. It kind of worked as an off-meta top lane pick and generally it was my most beloved iteration of the champ.
2. Colorful smites. Purple, White, Blue, Red. There was something cool about it . And you also could stack devourer infinitely just like feral flare.
3. Different bonuses for smiting different camps. Vision from wolves, poision from grompf, stun from golems, oracle from Wraiths.
4. Juggernaut update Morde with insane 3rd Q dmg and summoning dragon. But I also like the OG, so it doesn't matter to me that much. Also Skarner with spires.

So, what are your picks?
Do you think these in-between seasons will become more nostalgic than 1-3 because we won't be able to experience them again?

When it comes to OP picks.

In many videos about old league people portrayed AP sion and AP master , old Poppy R as something so terribly OP and impossible to play against.
You know how I remember it? When people hovered Sion and Poppy in 2013 they were almost consider troll picks.
The champions were outdated even back then. Sion's AP ratios were nerfed and he was incredibly mana hungry and useless early on lane. I remember playing one last Sion game before the rework and I felt so terribly weak. Remember old Poppy laning phase? It was tragic. AP master was terrible at dueling and if he didn't get resets/ enemy had stuns he was weak AF.
I think the panic like OLD AKALI WILL BE UNPLAYABLE and stuff like that is so blown out of proportions. These champions were reworked for a reason. Still, they might be strong in the classic environment, but people are overreacting. Even when I watched Vandrill playing AP sion - it was strong, but was it so GAMEBREAKING as people claimed in retrospective videos? No.

Classic and old League

What I think sucked about old League:

- Pick order. Let's be real, it sucked. You could rarely play on position you wanted, people were constantly arguing, trolling was MUCH more common because of it. I am glad they changed it. This is the one thing I agree "we think we want it, but we don't want it".

- Supports. I think old support experience was miserable. You had no gold, had to buy useless gold-generating items and wards. I have tons of nostalgia, I fondly remember heart of gold, but I always hated playing supp and I've always believed that they did an amazing job with modernising supports and giving them more interesting item options. It's fine, give us old support experience, but I am not looking forward to playing them and I think they had a good idea with dedicated items that were evolving. So here I wouldn't mind if they spiced it up a little.

- Dodge. Remember old Jax? It was terrible to play against. I am also kind of considering it something I can surely live without. Since we've already established this is not true classic, we can live without dodge.

- EDIT: Oh my God, grinding runes and buying rune pages for 6300IP. I don't want to relive the grind, I am glad they kind of modernised it.

What I think was a good idea in the end:
- Mixing seasons 1-3. It feels like a weird old patch with new exciting things to discover. I was against it, but I feel like it could work. I can live with it although i think faithfull recration of a specific patch would be better. Some things, however, such as having trinkets and old ward system feels off.

What sucks (briefly, because we know it)
- Bounty on towers
- New baron buff, gates
- CLASSIC MODELS AS SKINS ARE CRAZY and probably this is my biggest complaint that I doubt can be fixed. This is the way they decided to monetise it. Also it sucks that old skins have post-rework/updated models.
- Visual effects. We have old recall, what about old flash? Also many classic abilities have smooth look, nunu R, amumu R, W, Fiddle R. I hate it.
- New voicelines.
- New shop UI, sound effects missing.
- Many champions missing (Morde, Urgot, Poppy... lots of them)
- Maybe one day, but no twisted treeline. I've never enjoyed dominion to be honest so I don't miss it that much, but my first games were on TT and I played it a lot.

They just didn't pay enough attention to make classic feel classic and they decided to montise it in the most dissapointing way possible. New models feel so clunky with old skills but you are forced to use them for most of the time.

TLDR - old OP glazed picks are fine. They f-ed up the classic feel and montised it horribly. (s1 player btw)