u/Gigio2006

Luffy, Shanks and Kaido: trying to solve this weird rps (and why Oldbeard is the gun)

Luffy, Shanks and Kaido: trying to solve this weird rps (and why Oldbeard is the gun)

So recently I've been trying to fix my yonko tier and I've found that there are plenty of statements and portrayal for each. But sometimes they contradict each other. Here will be my attempt to solve them.

Value of character statements

First of all I will preface this by saying that unless directly contradicted or doubted, character statements should be taken at face value. Characters convey author messages unless doubt is placed upon them.

Like when looking at a character statement you should look at "what is the narrative value of this? Why would the author write this?" and if the statements happens to be wrong without being directly contradicted, then what would even be the reason for this statement? That's why it doesnt make sense to ask reliability for a statement unless such doubt is placed by the story itself.

Proof for Kaido>Shanks

https://preview.redd.it/7153g7dj4a2h1.png?width=304&format=png&auto=webp&s=c080a26f17f782a12dd2dfeb5263db0791977bd9

https://preview.redd.it/77mbzi7k4a2h1.png?width=670&format=png&auto=webp&s=b022fc77336e255f6f6abbb92645c84db5413f78

https://preview.redd.it/j85snaol4a2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=18acca06abda808dec05b0c0115546980ccc4d5a

https://preview.redd.it/mh09dqgb5a2h1.png?width=562&format=png&auto=webp&s=ef54523d499d2fc1d7d972aa430a3c3ba27ed192

Simple enough. All these statements portray Kaido as the strongest pirate after Oldbeard's death. We have 3 character statements and a chapter title. Pretty simple

Proof for Shanks>Kaido (?)

https://preview.redd.it/bmg6114x6a2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=014927f8703aa0ccffbba73844e459256fb80459

 Shanks' haki was described as monstrous by Jinbe and incredible by Yamato. Two characters who have seen/felt Kaido and Luffy full powered haki. Meaning to call someone's haki incredible and monstrous after knowing the full extent of those 2 Yonko implies Shanks' haki is superior.

https://preview.redd.it/423uuy217a2h1.png?width=682&format=png&auto=webp&s=bf005d1dd8617be9f4b5ae601abb4a94a02d5e6f

The giants chose to compare Shanks' haki to Joyboy, not Luffy's, despite witnessing Luffy's power on Egghead. This implies via chekov's gun that the reason Shanks was brought up was to tell the readers Luffy's not at Shanks' level yet.

There is also the fact that - Shanks is the only Yonko without a devil fruit and yet is in the same realm of power as the other Yonko, implying his haki must be greater to compensate for the buffs granted by the Quake and Fish fruits.

All things considered it makes sense for Shanks to have superior Haki to Kaido. We pair this with

https://preview.redd.it/yo98rbuo7a2h1.png?width=482&format=png&auto=webp&s=3baa4832b3329a8124491a05c5554763847f51c2

So from this it seems like Shanks>Kaido since Kaido seems to imply that having greater Haki means being stronger. So we start with this contradiction. Great. I guess tbh this statement can be interpreted in other ways than sheer power and the Kaido>Shanks stuff is more consistent by sheer quantity of statements (and a better quality overall)

Luffy>Kaido

Again, pretty simple

https://preview.redd.it/qzm2od2n8a2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=586ca753f3d740aa4f4d583a3b67f3d606e58eb5

https://preview.redd.it/cqaw64dx8a2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=2b7ea2195ef564b3c58f9690e705994262f59729

Joyboy is the man who was fated to defeat Kaido. Luffy defeated him. It doesnt make any sense to say that Luffy would lose a 1vs1 rematch. It doesnt make any sense and is trying to contradict an overwhelming narratve regarding Joyboy and Luffy. Kaido was narratively a stepping ston for Luffy to become a Yonko. So he is now stronger than him. The entire Joyboy narrative Kaido was talking about falls if Joyboy wasnt able to beat him alone.

Shanks>Luffy

This one is a bit harder but still easy based on narrative

https://preview.redd.it/hz04i1loaa2h1.png?width=177&format=png&auto=webp&s=951f5b23f51704b2f6958b754ef75724a734b075

https://preview.redd.it/79cq95lqaa2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=0af46543bd30b8b29065625ff2bbdefe15a941d4

https://preview.redd.it/lghicgjraa2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=bc7923fcc52f51cb4bf61305bfaa9c0b071d5ad0

Luffy's goal is to become a great pirate like Shanks and when he does, he will give him back the hat. Luffy and Shanks didnt meet at Wano, implying Luffy is not yet at his level. Great pirate has obviously a power connotation, as Shanks still wasnt searching for the OP in chapter 1.

We pair this with the same Haki reasoning we used for Shanks>Kaido and it's clear.

Oldbeard top 1

https://preview.redd.it/xoquukjlca2h1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=abba34d6e8fabb3c32346e09fda6edf642dd4656

https://preview.redd.it/5ad60kcsca2h1.png?width=863&format=png&auto=webp&s=e0e6f44ae46677c4d8466b0127a84cf736ce6a96

Just dropping this in. Old whitebeard has many statements both from characters, narrator and outside sources that say that he is the strongest man. Before the heart attack at marineford of course but up until that point (including when he met Shanks) he was above Kaido, Mihawk and Shanks.

Conclusions

With that said we come with a weird Kaido>Shanks>Luffy>Kaido with Shanks having some arguments to beat Kaido too and Oldbeard beating all due to being above Shanks and Kaido before his death, with the 2 not having any sign of growth in the timeskip.

So who would I place highest in tier list? Imo Shanks due to having arguments to be above Kaido too, along with Shanks physically not being able to be below Luffy due to straw hat narrative.

So in my tier list I'd rank Oldbeard>Shanks>Luffy>Kaido.

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u/Gigio2006 — 2 days ago

Do you think this is proof that Kaido>Shanks? When not directly contradicted nor casted a doubt on, character statements should be treated as the author's words imo

u/Gigio2006 — 4 days ago

My biggest problem with the ending of [CSM] isn't the abandoned plot lines or the pacing or characters disappearing. It's the lack of a thematic conclusion.

Planned to make this rant earlier but I let the steam of the ending run off a bit to think about it better.

Anyway what is the main theme of CSM? Well in part one it was clear: You might watch hundreds of bad movies, but the one good movie you'll watch will make all the other worthy. A life without bad things only exists in dreams. You might not have sex with a hundred women, but you might have with one. You might not eat steak every day but maybe once a month, and that will make the month worth living. You might live trough hardships, problems, traumas. But you will be happy once and that will make life worth living. The bad things in life are necessary to understand the good ones.

This was established in multiple scenes in part 1: the cinema scene in the reze arc served it as a basic explaination which was then well established more later with the graveyard convo with Makima and the one with Kobeni. Denji's arc from this was obvious: accepting that he cant have everything. He cant be happy with Makima and has to kill her. He cant have sex with hundreds of women nor eat steak every day. He can try to do his best and accept what he has.

In part 2 this was well, less developed. Denji kept spiraling back into his old self, which could fuck 10 super models and not be satisfied until he fucked the 11th. I kinda lost hope for a while.

Then volume 20 and thus chapter 183. That chapter by its own recovered my love into the series. It just made me remember everything I love about the series. Denji's speech about food and girls being what made him go on was oddly in character for part 2. Him rememebring what feeling loved means. The Reze coffee panel, without a single line of dialogue, spoke so many words, and it made me tear up. Everything I loved about CSM flowed back into my mind.

And then, after endless chapters of the worst fight I've ever seen, a bunch of plot twists and characters dying, we get to the finale. So what happened to the themes? Denji's development? Did he reach his peace and acceptance? Did the message of the story get delivered?

Of course not. Of course fucking not. The first fucking line of the final chapter is "I wish I could only have gokd dreams"

It's all gone. There is no development. No theme. Nothing. Everything you hoped for is gone. All the hours you spent enjoying the message of the series are gone. Denji is just the same trauma bonded person who has no brakes on his search for pleasuee. What Reze, Aki, Power and Kishibe thought him is gone. He is the same as chaoter 1. There is nothing and there will be nothing. Your journey trying to empathise with a protagonist on a thematic level was useless.

As I said I could acroll over the plot holes, the characters disappearing, the pacing, everything. All I needed was a thematic conclusion to Denji's chatacter, someone I always empathised with in his rush for pleasure. All I needed was the story to end telling me something.

But what is the message of CSM after considering the ending? What was Denji'a character supposed to convey in these 223 chapters?

What was it all for?

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u/Gigio2006 — 11 days ago

E con la vittoria di Verità Supposte si chiude il torneo! Complimenti a tutti è stato divertente

u/Gigio2006 — 12 days ago

è arrivato il momento della finalissima: quale è il miglior album tra Verità Supposte di Caparezza e Foto di Gruppo di Bassi Maestro?

u/Gigio2006 — 13 days ago

Sto album è una cazzo di mina, non ironicamente potrebbe essere il migliore dell'anno fino ad ora. Sala ha fatto delle produzioni senza senso e il flow di Gacha è perfetto

u/Gigio2006 — 13 days ago

Verità supposte distrugge Hellvisback e ci saluta Salmo. Seconda semifinale, quale è il disco migliore tra Foto di Gruppo e Mi Fist?

u/Gigio2006 — 14 days ago

Iniziano le semifinali! Quale è il miglior album, Verità Supposte o Hellvisback?

u/Gigio2006 — 15 days ago

Noyz ci lascia con onore, eliminato da Bassi. Ultimo turno prima delle semifinali, quale è il miglior album tra Mi Fist e Karma?

u/Gigio2006 — 16 days ago