Not much to be said,

For:

u/Noxiar_0 and u/Poprat543 VS u/Swimming_Cat114 and u/Ok_Street3641

Akainu vs Blackbeard respectively.

For:

u/Picheniko and u/Vance_Lance VS u/Evelne and u/TMNTransformerz

Mihawk vs Kuzan respectively.

In the case one specific user doesn't appear I am willingly to change the rules and let their teammate 1v2.

Please answer this post the participating users in order for me to comfirm you understand your task.

View Poll

View Poll

Master's condition was condition 3, and Noxiar's condition was condition 5 and he chose not to include narrative.

Master's post:

He starts by answering the question of how Shiryu could counter Magellan's fruit, by saying it's due to the invisibility fruit. Slightly speculative.

He goes into narrative speculation saying that Blackbeard wouldn't have given Shiryu his fruit if it was simply countered by observation Haki. He uses Doflamingo, a know observation Haki user, and the fact he wasn't able to see how absalom rescued Moria. Even Koby could have been used as an example here.

He infers that in the case Magellan doesn't know of Shiryu's location, he would just spam poison in all directions, but "can't keep it up due to diarrhea problems". Well as absurd it may sound it is indeed true, but you'd still have to reason why he can't deal with Shiryu before the diarrhea timer runs out.

He talks about, while Magellan's AP is strong, the same isn't true for his durability as Luffy was able ro put him on his knees. It may seem obvious that Shiryu's AP is higher than G2 Luffy but it would still be good to prove it. This of course just to show that Magellan is damagable by Shiryu.

He then talks about Shiryu's AP and how it was multiple times stated that Garp was weakened after being stabbed by Shiryu. He says that it's a speed feat as well how Shiryu was able to stab Garp before he reacted in time, but this could obviously be more atributed to his fruit, that master already established to bypass observation, than anything else.

He adds that Magellan's speed is relative to Gear 2 Luffy that he claims to be much slower than what Shiryu showcased in Hachinosu, which again might seem obvious but you have to establish a correlation that proves Garp>Gear 2 Luffy in speed. Otherwise it's just pleading to common sense, which isn't exactly valid. But I do get where he was coming from.

He goes into further speculation saying that eventually Magellan would try poisoning the ground and that way Shiryu couldn't get near him. He then speculates again that Shiryu could deal with that with flying sword attacks, something he was never showcased to have in his arsenal. He claims that saying Shiryu having those attacks isn't really headcanon as it was done by pre Tbone, someone he claims to be inferior to Shiryu (didn't really show why but fine). This is invalid obviously. In that same arc we had the CP9 perform Rokushiki tecniques that Current day Luffy (who beat Lucci) can't replicate. It's a matter of skill, not strength. So this point he tries to make is indeed headcanon. While it may seem reasonable it's still headcanon at the end of the day.

Now finally he adds that Ivankov stated that Magellan and Shiryu were equals but Shiryu was more deadly, which while essentialy proving nothing, Deadly ≠ Strong after all, is still a positive direct statement for Shiryu over Magellan.

He adds that Shiryu's durability is top notch for eating Garp's punch, but I'd say that's more endurance than durability (still a mix of both).

Overall an interesting post with some good points, but still filled with simply too much speculation. We'll see how Noxiar responds:

Noxiar's comment number 1:

He does say that the flying slashing attacks are headcanon. (They are still reasonable though, it would be good if he tried to counter it).

He says that off guarding Garp is not a speed feat. Doesn't explain why. And proceeds to say that master did all the arguing needed, so he wouldn't bother arguing more. I mean, at least say which part of your opponent's post argued for what you wanted. He didn't adress Ivankov's statement. He didn't adress that Magellan has speed to Gear 2 Luffy. He only tried saying that Shiryu stabbing Garp isn't a speed feat and didn't explain why. Very weird comment overall but not professional at all.

Master's response (comment 2):

He does start by pointing out the difference between headcanon and "more reasonable" headcanon. Obviously there are good reasons for Shiryu to have those style of attacks (that he did point out in the post and does point out again) and obviously it is still speculation which isn't really great to base your argument on but I would still imagine it would be important to adress this speculation, either by saying it isn't reasonable at all, or by defending why, even if were true, it wouldn't matter.

He says Noxiar needs to disprove what he said, which isn't entirely true. Obviously headcanons, as long as they are coherent with the story, are inherently impossible to disprove. Now, between headcanons there are those that are supported by the story and those that aren't. Noxiar should have either showed why master's headcanon isn't supported by the story or even if it was, Magellan would still win. Negleting the point completly is not a good move.

Again he talks about Shiryu's attack was too fast for Garp to succesfully save Koby without being stabbed. But again this can be atributed to Shiryu's Devil Fruit more than his speed. Either Shiryu was sneaky enough for Garp to not being able to react to him until he was close, which gives props to his Devil Fruit and not speed, or Garp was able to react earlier while Shiryu was still invisible yet Shiryu could still stab Garp, giving props to his speed but not his fruit. I don't think it's possible to make a point where we glorify both.

And yes obviously didn't willingly get stabbed, but it still doesn't take away from the possibility that it was due to Shiryu's fruit. If it wasn't due to it, it would still be worth it to explain why.

Noxiar's response (comment 3):

He starts by saying that Shanks and Roger are swordsmen and never used any slashing attacks. I mean I don't even know what to say on this one. Shanks and Roger have a total of 2 named attacks together and we can simply look at Divine Departure. For both of them. It's obviously an air slash attack. And even in the off chance you want to argue it isn't a slashing attack and more of an impact attack, it still is a flying attack and that was the most important part of the point master tried to make. Either way, bad examples.

Regarding the speed argument, he does point out that Garp's focus wasn't entirely on Koby, or rather wasn't on Koby at all, saying that the fact that Shiryu wasn't able to pierce Koby regarless is more of an anti feat to Shiryu than the opposite.

He talks about the invalidity of Ivankov's statement due to the fact of Magellan overwhelming Shiryu before, and in this specific case the statement becomes invalid indeed.

He says Garp's weakening is normal for any human and claims Garp wasn't using Haki (no real proof on this last one).

Master's response (comment 4):

He does double down on the absence of evidence not being evidence of absence. He could have simply talked about Divine Departure but sure. He pleads to common sense that characters like Shanks and Roger should have slashing attacks. He reuses the same "stronger means capable of doing the same things" argument which might seem reasonable, but isn't necessarily true all the time. For example Kinemon had the skill of cutting fire, yet Zoro before Wano while stronger than Kinemon wasn't able to replicate. There's a difference between skill and power. And not always is it proportional.

He says Garp wasn't far away from Koby in that time, and that it doesn't change the fact that Shiryu still had the speed to execute it either way, which is fair, but again does it put him above Gear 2 Luffy? And why? At what point does it put him past Luffy or not, because this the method of comparing we are using. It may seem that this Shiryu feat is better than G2 Luffy but proving it is necessary to finish the argument. At least in a rigorous tournament.

While I do agree that Ivankov's statement is meant to elevate Shiryu, again we have to understand that it isn't power related at all. It's about Shiryu being more deadly. You can still try to argue it is strength related but it's ambiguous, while Magellan beating Shiryu is a straight fact. Here a factual feat overcomes an ambiguous statement.

He says that if Shiryu managed to injure Garp due to him being a regular human, then he could do the same to Magellan as well. (Is Garp's durability > Magellan's? Why?) And points out that if Garp didn't use Haki it's an even bigger testament to Shiryu's speed. Which is true.

Noxiar's response (comment 5):

He says that it's impossible to know the true strength of attacks so we shouldn't use it in arguments. I wouldn't totally agree with this as there are still methods of comparing indirectly. And even if there weren't, obviously we would have to speculate which was what master did. It was somewhat reasonable speculation as well. (This was just another way of writing the headcanon point, it's essentialy the same)

He says Garp had his focus on Kuzan when Koby was attacked with it still being an off guard attack. (This debate is genuinely pointless, whether or not Shiryu stabbing Garp is a speed feat the timing of it and the fact Shiryu used his fruit more than his speed just makes it impossible to prove Shiryu>Magellan in speed.

Points out that Magellan beating Shiryu goes against that same intent master talked about, which is true.

Didn't really adress master's point of Shiryu being able to do the same to Magellan, and doesn't seem to understand master's point saying it was a Garp feat. Well yes if Garp were slightly faster he could have used Haki. The fact he didn't means Shiryu was fast enough for it not to happen. Which is a bonus on Shiryu's speed book. He also talks about how Shiryu was put out the fight, when he clearly was up afterwards.

Master's response (comment 5):

He says that there is reason to believe a stronger character should have stronger attacks. Which is true. But again I am being repetitive, air slashing is a skill not really power related (necesarily). Also he should say why Shiryu is superior to Skypeia Zoro, as absurd as it may sound, otherwise we are just throwing around claims without any proof or even backing.

I feel like while it is indeed a Shiryu speed feat, just like it is a Garp feat, the fact Garp was off guard and Shiryu used his fruit completly downscales that same feat.

It seems he didn't adress the fact Magellan beating Shiryu completly invalidates his statement.

He does point out that Shiryu was immediatly back up after Garp's attack contrary to Noxiar's false claim.

Noxiar's post:

Starts by emphasizing Magellan's fruit and how it disables approach from any side. In the case of a swordsman like Shiryu, unless he has those slash attacks talked about before, he would be somewhat screwed by the match up, which does shift the burden back to Shiryu to prove he has a way around it.

He says that the Clear Clear's fruit only advantage is sneaking, which isn't entirely true, as it can also help at essentialy being undetectable by the opponent. It's a great defensive fruit as well.

He said that Magellan already before he got his fruit, and that the fruit is completly useless, which once again, the fruit isn't entirely useless and also there is no evidence at all that the fruit was Shiryu's only power up in the two years.

Magellan no diffing Blackbeard's crew doesn't prove nothing unless you prove BB and crew>Shiryu and also we know about Blackbeard's careless personality when going head on into these battles. Whether it's Ace, Luffy, Law, there are multiple examples that corroborate it.

Crocodile and Jimbei running proves nothing, as again you still have to prove they scale above Shiryu.

He says that there is no way to touch him (he isn't a logia), but Haki counters all devil fruits whether they are Logia or not. Multiple times stated that way by Law or Roger for example.

Overall a post based on known feats, but he essentialy proved nothing. Deaming the invisibility fruit as useless is also disingenuous, as it has more uses than just "sneaking".

Didn't talk at all about how Magellan even hits Shiryu in his invisibility state, because if it isn't possible, then Magellan eventually loses in a stamina battle.

Master's comment 1:

He says that there's no actual proof Magellan can't be touched as he is a paramecia (not sure why it matters either way logias can be touched with Haki and Shiryu has been showed to coat his sword in basic armament Haki).

He also says that Shiryu's sword will melt which isn't true at all, as stated by Mihawk, as long as a sword is coated in armament Haki it doesn't get broken (when explaining Haki to Zoro). Once again Haki negates Devil Fruits.

So he says all Shiryu needs to do is stab Magellan once and it "should" be enough, as Luffy was able to bring Magellan to his kness, but again why is Shiryu's AP>Luffy? And why is it enough? The same piercing attack Shiryu used on Garp left him vulnerable to an attack from Garp. This would leave him vulnerable to a poison attack of Magellan and I don't know if that's ideal.

Yes Shiryu might be able to get close to him but is it enough?

He says that Shiryu got stronger over the timeskip and how it is "objectively true", which is funny but just wrong, obviously it isn't objective at all (disregarding his fruit which he doesn't talk about.

He goes into speculation as to why Shiryu might have gotten stronger post timeskip and gives some good reasons but it still is just speculation it's not objective at all lol.

He does point out well that it's part of BB's character to take attacks head on and it had happened multiple times, meaning Magellan doing it essentialy proves nothing.

He points out that Crocodile and Jimbei weren't in the mood of fighting and prioritized escaping. He also says that Magellan is actually a direct counter to Crocodile due to poison being a liquid which is fair.

Noxiar's response (comment 2):

He says that Magellan can just protect himself through layers of poison which impossibilitates Shiryu piercing through if his sword gets broken (it doesn't but his opponent said it did so it's fair).

He also says Magellan in his Venom Demon form can simply spread poison over the ground making it impossible for Shiryu to go near him.

Again absence of evidence isn't really evidence of absence and master made great reasoning as to why Shiryu might have gotten stronger. Shiryu not showing it against Garp does NOT show he didn't improve at all.

Didn't really adress Blackbeard's carelessness point. Also while Crocodile has ranged attacks that doesn't change the fact Magellan is a direct counter.

Master's response (comment 3):

He didn't really address the poison layers argument. Yes Shiryu could pierce through poison, but by his own concession Shiryu's sword gets destroyed by the poison. If Magellan creates a barrier larger than Shiryu's sword, then Shiryu might bypass the barrier but he sacrifizes his sword.

He talks about the flying sword attacks, not really gonna address it again.

He makes a point about Shiryu actually damaged Garp as a post timeskip feat and he also has Haki feats contrary to pre timeskip.

He makes a great point about why Blackbeard calling Shiryu "Magellan" shows the lack od knowledge BB had.

He does point out that regardless of Crocodile's range, his attacks are still susceptible to poison invalidating Noxiar's point.

Noxiar's response ( comment 4):

He does make great points about how the stab might not necessarily be enough for it to be "game over", and also about Venom Demon only needing to surround Magellan as he can sacrifize it to destroy Shiryu's sword.

He says Shiryu's flying sword attacks are unscalable so they don't matter, which obviously isn't true. They are still a reasonable possibility in Shiryu's arsenal and shouldn't be ignored at all when making the case.

He says Garp would be weakened by any sword attack, but he has to prove why. (He didn't).

Again didn't mention anything regarding BB's personality.

Conclusion:

I think Noxiar narrowly won the debate overall, but not because his arguments were necessarily deeper. He won because Master never fully solved the core mechanical problem of the matchup and relied too heavily on speculative bridges to do so.

Both of them made a bunch of claims without any proof, but at least Noxiar relied on the facts while Master relied too much on speculation, specially in the flying attacks bit but also in the Shiryu getting stronger bit.

Noxiar still underestimated the power of Shiryu's fruit, and master could have simply gone the "indestructible sword" way. All Shiryu has to do is stall as well due to Magellan's stomach problems and he can easily do it due to his fruit.

Noxiar overrelied on feats not understanding that Shiryu not having feats doesn't mean he isn't on a certain level, but I'd still give a slight edge to Noxiar in the argument. I will correct it due to the lack of rigor Noxiar had specially in his first comment.

So with that being said 50/50 in the debate with Noxiar receiveing 2.5 points out of 5 total, plus 5 from achieving his condition, so a total of 7.5 points.

Master gets 4 points out of 8, plus 2 for achieving his condition so a total of 6 points. But Noxiar guessed Master's condition and master didn't guess Noxiar's condition so the overall score is:

Noxiar 7.5-4 Master08965

Noxiar wins