r/GrandLineScaling

(A). The 50/50 split CONFIRMS it. If kuzan even lacked something the fight would be off in 3-5 days let alone 10 days with 70/30 split or more.

(B). People think kuzan's fuit was inferior to magma and was able to keep up with akainu cuz of his training through garp or more refined haki. This is just headcanon and wrong.

(C). Both devil fruits cancel out eachother, Akainu has constant flowing magma but people tend to forget that Kuzan's base form also surges with ice as we saw the fumes on him unlike regular ice cubes he doesnt need to double his output to match akainu's magma, he can literally FLASH FREEZE an entire ocean(island scale lvl)in 1 second or less than second in just his base form.

(D). Both were extremely CLOSE in Haki not devil fruit cuz devil fruit doesn't make sense. If kuzan lacked even a bit of haki he would have became a donut and vice versa for akainu.

(E). Akainu DOES have the most lethal devil fruit but it only works depending on the user and the opponent. Whitebeard's heart attack costed him a hole in stomach just LIKE JOZU's looking back costed him a full one hand. Akainu's devil fruit is like an enma of devil fruits but just as enma kuzan's devil fruit is like the heaven sword parallel to enma.

(F). It was the battle of WILLPOWER/haki not devil fruits. People also forget that Akainu and Kizaru were called MONSTER ROOKIES just as they joined the marines before they had their devil fruit.

(0% chance for a user of most lethal power and a user of fastest devil fruit to join marines at the same time in the same branch)

For akainu and kizaru to be strong before their devil fruit makes sense cuz they were from most aggressive sea and a natural fighter as depicted by child drawing of akainu.

Akainu won only by HAKI.

Welcome ladies and gentlemen, good morning, good afternoon, good evening and good night, welcome everyone.

The posts by zoteku and FitCantaloupe798 were very helpful in creating this post.

I would appreciate it if you could see their posts, which inspired me.

I am very grateful to both of those people.

-https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiecePowerScaling/s/ij0RVzaJjW FitCantaloupe798

-https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiecePowerScaling/s/Mw13Zo5mT9 zoteku.

Just so you know. It was an extremely long battle, and what did we see right after that extremely long battle?

KAIDO IS UNHARMED.

He wasn't even TIRED.

NO DAMAGE.

Oden and his condition? Injured. So much so that after the Totsuka Paradise, he took a blow and fell.

So no. Oden caught Kaido off guard; if he could kill Kaido with two hits and was truly capable of blitzing him, Oden would have done it.

But he decided to dance for years. And he tried to catch Kaido sleeping, because he knew he had no chance.

In the fight? He caught Kaido preparing his Boro Breath, who wasn't even looking at him.

I'll elaborate on those two points later. I just wanted to summarize quickly WHY this makes sense and HOW it's consistent.

1-Finally, in the first panel we see proof of the relativity of Kaido's base form and Oden's.

As we saw in the panel above.

I must point out how Kaido wasn't worried about transforming into dragon form even knowing Oden's power.

And... By table. No hybrid form, Shurron hakke or Kaenryuu daiko.

He simply didn't think Oden was such a big threat.

This is consistent with Oden agreeing to dance for years.

If Kaido Dragon can be killed with 2 hits and speed blitzed, So Kaido in his base form wouldn't stand a chance (*it's worth remembering that Kaido has gotten stronger over the years*).

2-Speaking again about the battle between Kaido the dragon and Oden.

Here I want to highlight two people.

Zoteku AND FitCantaloupe798,

The credits for some of the information below belong to them.

(*I'll tell you which ones, don't worry, First, let's talk about FitCantaloupe798's arguments. *)

-First of all, as we can see here, Kaido is already in dragon form at the start of the fight. Because did he think this was the most suitable for battle.

If he thought the hybrid form or Kaenryuu Daiko was necessary, he would be using it. If Oden were so strong that two blows could kill Kaido, then Kaido would already be at his maximum.

Here I want to add two points.

Kaido could have had his entire arsenal, or he could have, I simply don't want to belittle Oden and say that Kaido went easy on him. That would be to undermine the narrative of the two. So I prefer to believe That Kaido didn't have that arsenal. This is supported by how the fight unfolded and by some quotes.

-In other words, you can assume he had it. But he definitely didn't use it because he simply didn't think it was necessary.

3-Evidence from FitCantaloupe798:

During chapter 970, On the page

Kaido is seen fighting again in his full Dragon form, this time 6 pages later and right in the middle of the battle. That's when Shinobu joins the fight alongside Oden.

-Pages 11 and 12 of 970, Even in Kaido's final attack on Oden, he remained in dragon form.

-The fight between the Scabbards and Kaido was intended to be a parallel to Kaido vs. Oden, that the only difference was that Oden was dead; that is, no hybrid form, no Shurron Hakke, no Kaenryuu daiko.

-*this is supported by Kaido attempting to replicate the injury inflicted by Oden, but the Scabbards weren't as strong as Oden's.

He let himself get hit, tried to replicate the injury, and was saddened when it didn't work.

And only then did he take them more seriously by using the form base.*

-*Oda drew Kaido more than 10 times in the single chapter covering the fight, and he was attacking in Dragon form in every instance—no hybrid form, no Shuron Hakke, no Kaenryu Daiko.*

-here I temporarily end all mentions of FitCantaloupe798

-I should add that Oda had the opportunity to include the silhouette of the hybrid form; he drew King and Queen in their hybrid forms.

He drew Kaido the dragon himself in silhouette in the flashback.

So if he really wanted to include that shape, he would have done it, but that wasn't his intention.

Even the battle against the Scabbards demonstrates this. Since Kaido says that the only difference between Oden's battle and that one is that Oden was dead, without Kaenryuu daiko, hybrid form, or Shurron hakke.

There is NO quote stating that Kaido explicitly used the hybrid form against Oden.

So assuming he used it is just meaningless. You need proof to assert something.

3-Regarding the fight between Kaido and Oden.

-*As previously mentioned, Kaido was beating up Oden before the two fighters caught each other off guard.*

-This is where the relevant part of zoteku comes in.

I'll leave an image of his post describing why the Boro Breath preparation being affected isn't a drawback.

-Much less a demerit for Kaido. Since this is Kaido's slowest form as well. (The form that blitzed Luffy was a partial hybrid with six-pack abs and smaller arms, and a smaller jaw and head.)

This is consistent with the point that the fight was long and yet Kaido was not defeated or even injured; however, when he prepares his Boro Breath, Oden interrupts him, wounding him at that vulnerable moment.

-And I'll connect that to my point: Kaido wasn't even looking at Oden.

We see this with Kaido to the side, while Oden gets up to perform the Totsuka Paradise technique. Oden had been knocked down and Kaido was preparing a Boro Breath on the samurai; he wasn't facing Oden.

He was sideways. In a sideways position.

-When Oda wants to depict the head moving and the character changing position, he does it with the damn head clearly not moving; this doesn't happen in Kaido's Boro Breath because he doesn't Looking at Oden.

(*take Luffy's Gear 5 as an example, observing Kaido's movements in battle, This doesn't happen here*)

-Here I conclude the points regarding Zoteku (*even though I also gave my own points here, the Zoteku point is the explanation of Boro Breath and Kaido's size, That's his slowest form*)

4-The way Kaido fought. (*These are my points*)

As previously mentioned, Kaido, in his first encounter with Oden, he believed that only the base form would be usable.(He was right. He easily stopped one of Oden's attacks, while Oden claimed that no one in the world could stop Kaido in 20 years, And this display of power was enough for Oden to try and kill Kaido while he was unprepared, drunk, and asleep.)

In the second encounter, he believed that only the dragon form would be useful.

-Kaido doesn't switch between forms while using his hybrid form; he only uses the hybrid form because it's his best form among his dragon, base, and hybrid forms—it's literally his strongest form. With all the abilities of the dragon form, without its speed disadvantages (*it just makes it faster*)

On the roof, he NEVER switched between hybrid form and dragon form Except when I was using the Shurron hakke,

He literally only used Boro Breath in hybrid form when he activated hybrid form.

Three times. Two against Luffy, one against Yamato, possibly more offscreen, and none in dragon form.

-Even with Shurron Hakke, he doesn't remain in dragon form forever; he knows that preparing the boro breath leaves him vulnerable.

(*We have the literal example of Luffy over Kung Gun interfering with the activation of Boro Breath because that moment leaves Kaido vulnerable*)

-As I mentioned before, Kaido wasn't even looking at Oden, probably because he thought he had already knocked him.

In other words, without advanced observation haki. Otherwise, Kaido would have reacted and noticed Oden's presence.

-I know I've already said this, but even after falling and getting up with that fatal injury, Kaido isn't in his hybrid form or Shurron Hakke.

-He DEFINITELY didn't use the Kaenryuu daiko, since all of Kaido's samurai and allies within range of an island would be killed, even Wano would be damaged. Kaido gains nothing from that and... That didn't happen.

We've already seen how strong Kaenryuu Daiko is. He would devastate and melt Oden's body.

-Oden's position in Kaido's top 5 is irrelevant.

All it took for Kaido to recognize Luffy was the sky plitz from chapter 1027, which was WAY beyond Kaido's power level Total power.

-I've already talked about physical diferencie. But this is Oda himself drawing Kaido as physically stronger.

To describe the physically strongest one. It doesn't refer to Kaido from Oden's era, but to the current Kaido or Kaido within that timeframe after Oden.

-The 1167 quote is two decades after Godvaley, implying that Kaido had two years to get stronger while drinking and possibly developing the Shurron Hakke; the Kaenryuu Daiko is an analogy in relation to Oden's death.

So it may have happened around that same time, just like the rest of his arsenal.

It is even said that Kaido regularly fought with WB Prime, Shiki Prime, and Big Mom Prime.

No. Oden wouldn't kill him with two blows. Never. There's a reason why Oden himself said that no one could stop him for 20 years, and there's a reason why Oden danced for years.

This idea is immediately disproven by the long battle and Oden being beaten, while Kaido was unharmed until he was caught preparing Boro Breath when he wasn't even looking at Oden.

Even so? Kaido gets up. When HE catches Oden off guard, without Defense, without named attacks, and without any indication of Haki, Kaido delivers a blow, Oden DOES NOT get up.

The manga is very clear about who is stronger.

Kaido is only described as the strongest pirate currently, where he reached his peak.

Just like his reputation, the pirate, drunkard, living being, man, and "the strongest" in the world and in history.

-In conclusion, Kaido did not use (or did not have) his entire arsenal at that time.

-And he was DEFINITELY not in his physical prime.

Kaido's base form back then was relative to Oden, but Dragon Kaido was superior, and the current Kaido is also superior.

Acho que Katakuri vença High Diff,mas seria uma Luta equilibrada eu diria,

+1 means fight lasts several days (extreme diff)

+5 means competitive fight, but one person has the edge (hard diff)

+10 other person can put up a fight, but there is a clear winner (mid diff)

+20 fight will be over in a few minutes (low diff)

Assuming everbody in their prime

R1 : Current Wings

R2 : End of Elbaf Wings

Even her weakened ice demonstrated optimal durability against the bombs that damaged Big Mom, enhanced by years of life. Aramaki would have no way to break free. And it makes absolutely no sense to use the Aokiji vs. Robin argument to say that Logia users are fragile. Aramaki is depicted as having an avatar with durability, and that is the ONLY durability he DEMONSTRATES. He has nothing left. "Why didn't she defeat him then?" Literally, because didn't Momonosuke want to. He wouldn't let them. Notice how she doesn't try to defend herself, she doesn't try to attack, she doesn't try to defend the scabbards or Momonosuke. She does nothing after the order. Even after being captured, she could freeze vines, use shards to free herself, employ named attacks, and transform into a full or hybrid Zoan. She had several options, but she didn't use any of them. Frankly, she could even use advanced Busoshoku emissions. But she literally didn't want to. Because Momonosuke wouldn't let her. She tried to appeal to the Straw Hats because Zoro is a father figure, Nami is maternal, and Luffy is Momonosuke's hero; it's a different kind of trust than the one Momonosuke has with Yamato. "She said Shanks saved Wano." Yes, we literally saw it; he saved Wano from further damage. We saw that Yamato could handle him. So... like???? Yes, Shanks dealt with it. That's not debatable and it's not an argument. That's literally what happened. So much so that even after Greenbull leaves, Luffy and Yamato still decide that Yamato should stay in Wano. Because she could handle Greenbull and people stronger than Greenbull.

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Not only did Zoro block a joint attack from both Kaido AND Big Mom, he proceeded to become the first person since Oden to permanently scar the former.

He then awakens King of Hell and defeats King, Kaido’s own right-hand man.

Besides Luffy himself, he was CARRYING the whole war at Onigashima.

Law and Kid barely gave Big Mom a ring out with their Awakened Devil Fruit powers.

Zoro was also able to fend off Mihawk’s Seraphim, the same one that made Blackbeard sweat, who previously BULLIED Law.

I got all out Loki at high Pk+

Additionally how strong do you think he will be by the end of Elbaf?

And no, don't use the "he had an army" argument. Kaido was 99% of that army, probably 200%. Anyone who can handle Kaido, This person can handle Kaenryuu daiko. A clash between Gabban and Kaido in that form would be within the range of an island. The heat and haki would decimate the fierce pirates. And for everyone who says Gabban would give Kaido a low difference? Well, there's your answer. It would be even worse for the beast pirates. No, then. Old Gabban doesn't have that level. Regarding Imu, he was another one who only dealt one hit, catching Imu off guard.

This also answers the questions about Rayleigh and Oden. Look at the third panel.... If Oden could kill Kaido with two hits, Gabban with one, and Rayleigh with a fart. So Oden wouldn't have danced for years; he would have summoned the two and split each of the beastly pirates in two. And Kaido's head was ripped off.

No matter what you say, we know that didn't happen, and the reason is in the third panel. And there's no way old men commanders could possibly defeat the king of beasts.

And where do you think he ranked power wise among Doffy’s crew at the time?

Since nobody mentioned the obvious Gabban vs. Imu matchup, what we saw on the page with Imu bleeding is NOT Imu receiving the attack or Gabban overcoming Imu's defense. That's AFTER the attack happened, Oda skipped that part. So much so that the trunk itself had already been cut down. We

literally saw the cut behind the barrier. Because it had already happened. (\\\*Here is the image; Imu has already projected the barrier onto the page. However, the cut had already happened before we saw the page because he is behind Imu, meaning it has already passed.

Imu was focused on Luffy, so it's quite reasonable to say that Imu was indeed caught off guard. Since Loki was also in front of him, the difference is that Imu here was actually focused on another person projecting ANOTHER ACTION in pure attack. Later, he literally defends himself from another attack by Gabban.

To be fair, I won't say that Gabban didn't overcome the barrier, but it wasn't shown. So to assume that this happened is meaningless.

Another thing that many seem not to have understood was Kamudo, the attack that injured Imu.

The second attack was just to finish destroying the branches.

Prime Rayleigh and Gaban VS God Valley Roger and Garp

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Okay.....

That was disproven a long time ago.

But he came back with "Oden could have killed Kaido with 2 hits," so why did the fight last so long? Why was Oden bleeding while Kaido was unharmed?

Why was Kaido on the horizon ignoring Oden, who had been knocked down? Kaido started preparing a Boro Breath and left himself vulnerable.

We saw how serious Kaido is at the top of Onigashima, both in Shurron Hakke, he leaves no openings even while activating Boro Breath and against Gear 5.

Kaido didn't even use the hybrid form, since he stood up in his base form.

We only need to look at the fight at the top of Onigashima; he doesn't change forms unless he's in Shurron Hakke.

"Was Kaido in Shurron Hakke?" No. Otherwise, he wouldn't have deactivated it.

It's the same with future vision; Kaido wouldn't have been caught vulnerable if he had been in that time or had activated future vision.

"Kaido didn't use the Flame Dragon?" No. The Kaenryuu Daiko is very destructive, the battlefield would be devastated, and if Oden can rival Kaenryuu, then... Kaido's regular dragon would really be dead.

That didn't happen. Kaido simply didn't think Oden was such a big threat or didn't have the Kaenryuu daiko.

That's why I assume Kaido wasn't the Prime at that time; that's underestimating the writing of both of them.

Kaido became deeply engrossed in alcohol during those 20 years and likely developed the Shurron Hakke technique through his experience; the flame dragon also references how Oden was burned.

As already stated, we have no reason to believe that he had those physical forms.

(*It makes sense that Kaido would have a hybrid form, but I also prefer not to believe it, not to buff Kaido, but to avoid belittling Oden's writing*)

If Oden could kill Kaido with two blows, then he would have attacked Kaido a long time ago; you can be sure that King and Queen wouldn't be a problem.

Do you think Kaido was in the Prime at that time? PERFECTLY,

This only confirms that no one could stop Oden if he truly possessed that power, since the Kaenryuu Daiko would devastate the Beast Pirates; if Oden can kill that, then he can massacre Kaido.

However, that didn't happen, did it? No matter how strong Kaido was, Oden knew what the outcome would be.

Until the very end, Oden wanted to kill Kaido while he was drunk and sleeping.

Oden was certain that no one, at that time and for a period of 20 years, could stop Kaido.

One additional point we saw in chapters 1027 and 1039 is what Kaido considers a worthy fighter and warrior.

This is nowhere near what he demonstrates in chapter 1045, delivering one-shots and speed blitzes that surpass Luffy's resistance, durability, perception, and speed.

Much less him rivaling Badrang Gun for 2 chapters.

You can use the argument of citing people who could face Kaido, but that's the kind of warrior Kaido considers capable of facing him, so even that isn't a valid argument.

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