It would be so funny to watch Maedhros meet Tywin Lannister

There are enormous philosophical and moral differences between Maedhros and Tywin, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't endear Tywin to Maedhros, but there is one thing that they absolutely have in common, and that, of course, is political theory:

Maedhros summarises his view on kingship after Thingol does some posturing and bluster: “To this council came Angrod out of Doriath bearing the words of King Thingol, and their welcome seemed cold to the Noldor. The sons of Fëanor indeed were wroth thereat; and Maidros laughed, saying: ‘He is a king that can hold his own, or else his title is vain. Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run. Indeed Doriath only would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he hath the sons of Finwë for neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us.’ [...]” (HoME XI (1994), Grey Annals, p. 33)

And funnily, here we have Tywin's view of the matter: “And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all.” (ASOS (2006), ch. 53, Tyrion VI)

You know, I think that a post-Angband Maedhros would do very well in Westeros.

Ok there's another thing that they'd agree on but at least with Maedhros it's not going to result in Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion.

By the way, it's hilarious how much of GoT comes straight from Tolkien. And even funnier is when people make grand pronouncements à la "GoT is Tolkien but with all that cool brutality and dragon incest added and without the booooring good vs evil morality that makes LOTR so boring", and it's just like...let me introduce you to Túrin real quick! And the rest of the First Age. And the entire Second Age.

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 10 days ago

TIL that Big Tobacco shamelessly hijacked the women‘s movement in the early 20th century to double their potential buyer base

Before the 20th century, tobacco had been the domain of men. Sure some women would smoke, but generally, it was a male pursuit.

This changed when Big Tobacco decided that they wanted a lot more customers. So what did they do? Via PR and advertising campaigns, they managed to connect the idea of women‘s emancipation with smoking tobacco. After all, in the past, tobacco had been a men‘s thing only, so women taking up smoking was actually incredibly feminist and emancipatory by breaking down gender norms!!

There‘s no need to tell anyone here that smoking not only risks the smoker‘s life and health, but also causes stillbirths and awful medical conditions in foetuses exposed to it? This reminds me of all the other substances that were marketed to women as safe and great, and turned out to be…well, more like thalidomide.

Also, this cynical hijacking of the women‘s movement for profit with something that makes users ill is just—I have no words.

If you’re interested in all its terrible glory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches\_of\_Freedom

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 14 days ago

Follow-up to my post about high-intensity cardio and weight loss

Lots of interesting points there in the comments, in particular about how different people have different hunger responses to different types of working out, but one thing that stuck out to me was how near-universally people see “high-intensity cardio” and read it as “running”.

And that, of course, does have all the disadvantages of high-intensity cardio that people usually know of: high injury risk especially if you’re a beginner or overweight, pain, drudgery, and all of this discouraging people and making them more likely to stop exercising all together.

All of which is why I’d never recommend running to someone just starting out. It’s too high impact and not sustainable for a lot of people for good reasons.

Swimming would be ideal (for beginners, but also for everyone, it’s a perfect full-body exercise that doubles as a constant lymphatic massage), but can be expensive if you aren’t lucky enough that your local pool (if it even exists) offers a subscription.

Cycling is next. With a real bike, it’s significantly more mentally stimulating than doing it at the gym, but of course you need good and safe roads for it. It’s also less expensive than running in the long run, in my experience. You don’t need a fancy racing bike for it; I just use my city-trekking bike that cost 400 euros new and that I also use to get to places instead of public transport. Running costs more in new running shoes after a fairly short amount of time. And cycling is much nicer on the joints than running, especially if you’re overweight (although not everyone’s knees appreciate daily cycling).

I’m also a fan of inline skating. Low price of entry (basically as much as running, with skates costing ca. 100 euros, pads maybe 20, and a helmet), and very lenient on the joints. It also feels pretty cool to glide across smooth pavement at a much higher speed than you could ever dream to run. Downside: requires the kind of flat, smooth and empty pavements that aren’t easily found, especially after 6am.

Ice skating is essentially the same as inline skating in terms of benefits and comes with the same downsides as swimming in terms of cost and accessibility. But maybe you live in hockey land and there are ice rinks open all year.

Which leaves Nordic walking, which burns quite a lot more calories more than normal walking because it’s quite fast and engages lots of upper body muscles, and the sticks cost practically nothing.

All of these are better for beginners and for anyone who’s overweight than running. Don’t start with running!

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 16 days ago

Why is high-intensity cardio so rarely recommended for weight loss on this sub?

Every time someone asks for advice on how to lose weight here, you’ll get a lot of comments à la “start lifting heavy every other day and reduce your calories in”, and cardio either isn’t mentioned at all or just walking. It’s like people here don’t believe that cardio will make you shed fat.

I wonder why that is. I’ve always eaten far more than other girls and women my size and height. I’ve never done a conscious weight-loss diet. All the weight I’ve ever lost is because I thought I was eating enough for my exercise levels, especially cardio, and high lean body mass. Turns out I didn’t eat enough, because I lose weight at 2200 calories a day. And that’s because of exercise, because of weightlifting because it builds lean muscle mass, but because of cardio in particular, because cardio gets that lean muscle mass moving.

Intense cardio simply burns a lot more calories than either weightlifting or walking. An hour of running or swimming will burn more than twice what you burn in an hour of weightlifting at the gym. When I used to swim 160 laps a day, I ate like the growing young men around me, and I still lost weight. Because I was burning 800 calories in the pool every day, and active the rest of the day.

So why is cardio so ignored here? It’s pretty obvious that the best and healthiest thing to do is to focus on both cardio, for the heart and endurance and fat loss, and weightlifting, to build muscle and bone density. And if you do both, you don’t have to control your calories in all that much. I eat a lot, and most of it is super high-calorie (my favourite snacks in between meals are salami and sugared nuts), I don’t eat any fruit and barely any vegetables, and I have a sixpack and can do 15 pull-ups in a set.

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 16 days ago

Inheritance and dowries—or, how much will Emma get?

There’s been a fair bit of discussion about the financial situation and background of the Woodhouse family, but I’ve never seen this question asked directly, so:

Emma is called an “heiress of thirty thousand pounds”, which to my mind could imply two things: (1) she’ll inherit the whole sum once her father dies, or (2) it’s already hers in some sense (maybe in a trust) and comes from her dead mother somehow.

When Emma marries, will she and Mr Knightley get her thirty thousand pounds at once, or will she only get the entire sum when Mr Woodhouse dies? If it’s the former, that implies that she’d inherit even more when her father dies, doesn’t it?

(That is: does Mr Woodhouse currently have sixty thousand pounds, living off the interest with an income of 2500 to 3000 pounds a year and handing Isabella a chunk of it every year in lieu of a dowry/future inheritance, or does he have a lot more than that, to the extent that Isabella already has her (likely) thirty thousand pounds and that Emma will get them too upon marriage?)

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 19 days ago

What's wrong with Mrs. Allen?

And what on earth induced Mr. Allen to marry her? She's the most perfect NPC I've ever seen in any form of media, and that includes video games.

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 30 days ago

Of how Fingon came to be

Maedhros might be the flashier character, but my favourite remains Fingon, and so I’m back to analysing him and his textual development: this time, how his stance towards leaving Valinor and going to Beleriand developed over the decades-long textual history. 

We know Fingon as the prince who opposed his father in wanting to remain in Valinor, implicitly agreeing with Fëanor, who recklessly jumped in at Alqualondë to defend the Fëanorians, and who had loved Maedhros once and for this reason decided to try to do what Maedhros’s brothers hadn’t dared and save his life. 

But Fingon-and-Maedhros weren’t always like this (https://archiveofourown.org/works/71439151), and Fingon specifically had once been very different. 

In the oldest text published as parts of the Poems Early Abandoned, specifically The Flight of the Noldoli, Fingon (= Finweg) is categorically opposed to leaving in general and to Fëanor in particular, and he’s pretty temperamental about it: “But Finweg cried Fingolfin’s son when his father found that fair counsel, that wit and wisdom were of worth no more: ‘Fools” (HoME III, p. 136) 

Fingon’s opposition to Fëanor and to leaving Valinor, while surprising for modern readers, is quite a consistent element for decades. 

It’s the same in the Sketch of the Mythology (1926). After the death of the Trees, “Fëanor makes a violent speech” and the oath is sworn, but “Fingolfin and Finweg speak against him”; however, the Noldor “vote for flight”, “and Fingolfin and Finweg yield; they will not desert their people, but they retain command over a half of the people of the Noldoli.” (HoME IV, p. 18, fn omitted) Note that it’s not Fingolfin’s people, it’s Fingolfin and Fingon’s people. 

Fëanor and his people seize the ships, cross the sea and burn the ships (Maedhros included). Notably, Fingolfin now returns to Valinor, while Fingon leads the second host over the Ice: “Fingolfin’s people wander miserably. Some under Fingolfin return to Valinor to seek the Gods’ pardon. Finweg leads the main host North, and over the Grinding Ice. Many are lost.” (HoME IV, p. 18, fn omitted) This was later changed, so that Fingolfin didn’t return to Valinor, but went to Middle-earth; specifically, unlike the abandonment of the idea of Maglor killing his brothers, it doesn’t already appear in the text, but only in (later) alterations via footnotes. 

In the Quenta Noldorinwa (1930), these elements essentially all reappear. Again Fingolfin and Fingon speak out against Fëanor/leaving Valinor: “Fingolfin and his son Finweg spake against Fëanor, and wrath and angry words came near to blows” (HoME IV, p. 95, fn omitted). Fingolfin is now firmly also with the second host, but Fingon is still central: The Sons of Fëanor at Mithrim “heard of the march of Fingolfin and Finweg and Felagund, who had crossed the Grinding Ice.” (HoME IV, p. 101–102, fn omitted) Note that the “Gnomes of Tûn” are now involved in the First Kinslaying, but not Fingon (HoME IV, p. 95). Fingon also does not urge on his father after Alqualondë (cf HoME IV, p. 96). 

In the Later Annals of Valinor (late 1930s), Fingon is not mentioned either when Fëanor rouses the Noldor to rebellion or where the First Kinslaying is concerned (HoME V, p. 115). After the Doom of Mandos, Fëanor continued, “and with him went still, but reluctantly, Fingolfin’s folk, feeling the constraint of their kinship and of the will of Fëanor; they feared also the doom of the Gods, for not all of Fingolfin’s people had been guiltless of the kinslaying.” (HoME V, p. 116) Fingon is not mentioned either here or on the Ice. 

The Quenta Silmarillion (late 1930s) is similar: After the Oath, “Fingolfin and his son Fingon spake against Fëanor, and there was wrath and angry words that came near to blows. But [Finarfin] spake gently and persuasively, and sought to calm them, urging them to pause and ponder, ere deeds were done that could not be undone. But of his own sons Inglor alone spake with him; Angrod and Egnor took the part of Fëanor, and Orodreth stood aside.” (HoME V, p. 234) However, Fingolfin and his sons are eventually persuaded to join: “The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people” (HoME V, p. 235). This (internal) reluctance of Fingolfin and his sons, including Fingon, remains: the Valar forbid the march, Fëanor hurries on, “The hosts of Fingolfin followed less eagerly” (HoME V, p. 235). At Alqualondë, “the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin” (HoME V, p. 236); Fingon is not mentioned. After the Doom of Mandos, “all of Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, being constrained by the will of Fëanor and fearing also to face the doom of the Gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë.” (HoME V, p. 237) Still, Fingon remains an important leader after the ship-burning/on the Ice: “Therefore led by Fingolfin, and Fingon, Turgon, and Inglor, they ventured into the bitterest North” (HoME V, p. 238). 

There are two relevant texts published in HoME X, the first phase of the Later QS and the Annals of Aman. While the writing periods overlapped, in this particular instance, we know that the LQ1 text is older than the relevant part of the AAm text, since Christopher Tolkien writes the following about the LQ1 text in question: “This is almost word for word the same as AAm §156, the only real difference being the mention here that Fingon and Turgon had no part in the kinslaying. That the rewriting of QS preceded the passage in AAm, however, is shown by the fact that Olwë is here a later change from Elwë.” (HoME X, p. 196) 

So let’s start with the Later QS text. The relevant passage is part of the LQ1 phase = 1951 (HoME X, p. 194). 

The debate in Tirion begins to change: “‘But of his own sons Inglor alone spake with him [Finarfin]; Angrod and Egnor took the part of Fëanor, and Orodreth stood aside’ > ‘But of his own children Inglor alone spoke in like manner; for Angrod and Egnor and Galadriel were with Fingon, whereas Orodreth stood aside and spoke not.’ As AAm was first written the same account of the associations of the Noldorin princes was given, but it was changed immediately: see AAm §135 (pp. 112, 125), and p. 121, note 12.” (HoME X, p. 195) However, this does not mean what you’d first assume it means. This alteration needs to be read in conjunction with QS § 68 (printed in HoME V, p. 234), where Fingon (and Fingolfin) angrily speak against Fëanor, nearly leading to physical violence, while [Finarfin] and [Finrod Felagund] gently urge caution and restraint, and Angrod and Aegnor take Fëanor’s side. So the LQ1 alteration on its face means that Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel are (1) angrily and emotionally (2) opposed to Fëanor. This is a significant change, but not for Fingon. Instead, it signals a fundamental shift in the characters of Angrod and Aegnor, who in previous versions had been close to the Sons of Fëanor (in particular Celegorm and Curufin, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1muv6q9/the_apotheosis_of_the_house_of_finarfin/), an element which Tolkien abandoned in 1951 as he wrote the LQ1 and AAm, as Christopher Tolkien explains (HoME X, p. 126, 182, 195–196). Angrod and Aegnor, like their brothers (including Finrod Felagund), instead become the friends of the sons of Fingolfin (one or both) now. 

Meanwhile, Fingon specifically is not involved in the First Kinslaying yet, although the idea that Fingon (and Turgon) actually want to go now (even if they did not initially in Tirion) now appears: 

“Then [Finarfin] turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the house of Fëanor because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna, still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor again. And they received the pardon of the Valar, and [Finarfin] was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon, though they had no part in that deed, were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and all too swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.” (HoME X, p. 196)

The Annals of Aman show us the last stage of the textual development: 

After Fëanor and his sons swear the oath, there is a debate in Tirion among the princes, and now, the alignments shift even more in general, and Fingon’s role in particular changes drastically: 

  • Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords. But [Finarfin], who was skilled also in words, spoke softly, as his wont was, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone. But of his own sons Orodreth alone spoke in like manner; for Inglor was with Turgon his friend, [fn. 12] whereas Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled her heart, and she yearned to see the wide untrodden lands and to rule there a realm maybe at her own will. For youngest of the House of Finwë she came into the world west of the Sea, and knew yet nought of the unguarded lands. Of like mind was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little; [fn. 13] and with Fingon as ever stood Angrod and Egnor, sons of [Finarfin]. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.” (HoME X, p. 112–113, fn omitted) 
  • Fn 12: “The associations of the Noldorin princes were different as this passage was first written: ‘Fingolfin and his sons Fingon and Turgon spoke against Fëanor’, and ‘of [Finrod’s] own sons Inglor alone spoke in like manner, for Angrod and Egnor were with Fingon, and Orodreth stood aside; whereas Galadriel…’ But the changes that give the text printed appear to have been made immediately, since the passage at the end of the paragraph belongs to the original writing of the text.” (HoME X, p. 121) 
  • Fn. 13: “Struck out here: ‘and his sons less’ (cf. the passage in §160 where Fingon’s friendship with Maidros is referred to).” (HoME X, p. 121)

 

That is, Fingon now wants to leave even though he apparently dislikes Fëanor, but he doesn’t say anything at the debate, which makes me wonder how Pengolodh, the narrator, knows that Fingon wanted to go because he (1) wished to explore Beleriand, and (2) wished to rule a realm of his own. Importantly, Tolkien initially wrote that Fingon disliked Fëanor’s sons, but deleted that, because Fingon’s prior relationship with Maedhros now appears. 

(Regarding this passage, Christopher Tolkien writes: “As AAm was first written (see note 12 above) the alignments of the Noldorin princes were already changed from the account in QS (§68), since Angrod and Egnor were now opposed to Fëanor — and Galadriel now has a part in the matter, being eager to leave Aman. As rewritten, a more subtle alignment is portrayed: for Fingon now independently urges departure, and Angrod and Egnor move with him. Of Fingolfin’s sons Turgon alone now supports his father, but Inglor stands with him; and Orodreth moves into Inglor’s place as the only one of his sons to support Finrod.” (HoME X, p. 125) Except that Fingon apparently doesn’t urge departure, but rather remains silent.) 

Fingon now becomes a central reason why Fingolfin leaves in the first place, spurring him on repeatedly:

  • “And indeed when Fëanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting out, then at once dissension arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as king. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them. Thus at the last the Noldor set forth divided in two hosts. Fëanor and his following were in the van; but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin. And he marched against his wisdom, because Fingon his son so urged him, and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor. With Fingolfin went [Finarfin] also and for like reason; but most loath was he to depart.” (HoME X, p. 113) 
  • “In that hour the voice of Fëanor grew so great and so potent that even the herald of the Valar bowed before him as one full-answered, and departed; and the Noldor were overruled. Therefore they continued their march; and the House of Fëanor hastened before them along the coasts of Elendë: and not once did they turn their eyes backward to Tirion upon Túna. Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of these Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went [Finarfin] and Inglor, and many of the fairest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss that they had forsaken, and some even of the fair things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.” (HoME X, p. 114–115)
  • Alqualondë: “Thrice the folk of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar.” (HoME X, p. 116)  
  • After the Doom of Mandos, Finarfin returns to Valinor, “But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was forespoken began its work.” (HoME X, p. 118)

 

That is, the AAm is where quite a few things that we know Fingon (and that are drastically different from all prior iterations of his story) for first appear: (1) Fingon wanting to leave (as opposed to joining FIngolfin’s arguments against Fëanor), (2) Fingon urging on his father (repeatedly), (3) Fingon intervening at Alqualondë, (4) Fingon’s previous relationship with Maedhros, and (5) Maedhros refusing to burn the ships because of Fingon.

Fingon now becomes the most pro-Fëanorian non-Fëanorian. He’s independent and exhibits a great deal of agency. He makes his own choices and makes his father, theoretically the king from (supposedly) Fingon’s perspective, do whatever Fingon wants, and that is to leave Valinor and go to Beleriand. 

Why? 

Pengolodh tells us that, like Galadriel, Fingon—even though he does not say so at the debate—wanted to go because he wished to (1) explore Beleriand, and (2) rule a realm of his own. 

Ironically, Fingon does neither to any particular degree. Finrod is famously the one who does the most hunting and exploring of all the House of Finwë in Beleriand: “Thus the sons of Fëanor under the leadership of Maidros were lords of East Beleriand, but their folk was in that time mostly in the north of the land; and southward they rode only to hunt, and to seek solitude for a while. And thither for like purpose the other Elflords would sometimes come, for the land was wild but very fair; and of these Inglor came most often, for he had great love of wandering, and he came even into Ossiriand and won friendship of the Green-elves.” (HoME V, p. 265) (This particular passage from the QS was not changed in the Later QS stage, but the second half of this paragraph was extensively rewritten, indicating that Tolkien still agreed with the contents of the first half; cf HoME XI, p. 197.) While pretty much everyone else hunts and rides in East Beleriand (Maedhros and Maglor with Finrod, who does even more exploring and discovers Men; Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir; Amrod and Amras; Aredhel), Fingon does not

And as for ruling, Fingon evidently could not care less. His first action in Beleriand is a suicide mission to rescue his father’s main political rival or get killed in the attempt. Fingon’s much younger brother Turgon establishes two kingdoms (Vinyamar and Gondolin) in a century, as does his much younger cousin Finrod, and Fingon prefers to remain living with Fingolfin in Barad Eithel. Fingolfin hands him the lordship of Dor-Lómin, but he actually takes it away later, and Fingon approves: When Fingolfin gives Fingon’s fiefdom to the House of Hador, Fingon gives Hador a gift for his investiture! (UT, p. 98) And when Fingolfin dies, Fingon nominally becomes High King of the Noldor, and Maedhros is wholly in charge—with Fingon’s full cooperation in the Union of Maedhros: “And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring.” (HoME XI, p. 70)

Anyway, both justifications (which Fingon didn’t even voice at the debate!) seem dubious given Fingon’s entire subsequent behaviour, but at the same time, he’s really into following Fëanor in the AAm. He keeps spurring on Fingolfin repeatedly and intervenes at Alqualondë when he sees the other Noldor in danger, unlike in all previous versions! 

What changed? 

Well, one thing changed that explains all of this. 

  • “Of like mind was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little and his sons less” (cf HoME X, p. 113, 121). 
  • “But when they were landed, Maidros the eldest of his sons (and on a time a friend of Fingon ere Morgoth’s lies came between) spoke to Fëanor, saying: ‘Now what ships and men wilt thou spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?’” (HoME X, p. 119)

 

That’s the new element that changed everything: Fingon and Maedhros

And that’s why Fingon wanted to go to Middle-earth, and that’s why he intervened at Alqualondë. Structurally, these elements appeared in conjunction with his “ancient friendship” with Maedhros, and as such, Fingon did these things because of his previous relationship with Maedhros. 

And now, Fingon-and-Maedhros becomes central in motivating Fingon’s choices and actions not only in (leaving) Valinor, but explicitly in Beleriand as well: 

  • Grey Annals (1951): “Here Fingon the Valiant resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor, ere their Enemy should be ready for war; for the earth trembled in the north-lands with the thunder of the forges of Morgoth. Moreover the thought of his ancient friendship with Maidros stung his heart with grief (though he knew not yet that Maidros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships). Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maidros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. In the Quenta it is told how at the last he found Maidros, by singing a song of Valinor alone in the dark mountains, and was aided by Thorondor the Eagle, who bore him aloft unto Maidros; but the bond of steel he could in no wise release and must sever the hand that it held. Thus he rescued his friend of old from torment, and their love was renewed; and the hatred between the houses of Fingolfin and Fëanor was assuaged. Thereafter Maidros wielded his sword in his left hand.” (HoME XI, p. 31–32) (Christopher Tolkien believes the Grey Annals to have been written after but close to the Annals of Aman, HoME XI, p. 4.)
  • Later QS (1958): “A subheading was pencilled in the margin at the beginning of this paragraph: Of Fingon and Maedros (apparently first written Maidros: see p. 115, §61). Not found in LQ 1, this was incorporated in LQ 2. […] To the words ‘for the thought of his torment troubled his heart’ was added (not in LQ 1): ‘and long before, in the bliss of Valinor, ere Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, he had been close in friendship with Maedros.’” (HoME XI, p. 177) 
  • Unlike in earlier versions, it’s now highlighted that Maedhros’s relationship with the princes in the West remains close; not only is Maedhros and Fingon’s love renewed, but Maedhros also remains a friend of what boils down to Fingolfin and Finrod. This is confirmed by a passage in the Grey Annals about the Union of Maedhros: “And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring.” (HoME XI, p. 70) There is no “he renewed friendship with Fingon in the West, and they acted thereafter in concert” (HoME V, p. 307), because there is nothing to renew.

 

Isn’t this sweet? (Don’t think about what happens in F.A. 472.)  

Sources 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Of how Fingon came to be

Maedhros might be the flashier character, but my favourite remains Fingon, and so I’m back to analysing him and his textual development: this time, how his stance towards leaving Valinor and going to Beleriand developed over the decades-long textual history. 

We know Fingon as the prince who opposed his father in wanting to remain in Valinor, implicitly agreeing with Fëanor, who recklessly jumped in at Alqualondë to defend the Fëanorians, and who had loved Maedhros once and for this reason decided to try to do what Maedhros’s brothers hadn’t dared and save his life. 

But Fingon-and-Maedhros weren’t always like this (https://archiveofourown.org/works/71439151), and Fingon specifically had once been very different. 

In the oldest text published as parts of the Poems Early Abandoned, specifically The Flight of the Noldoli, Fingon (= Finweg) is categorically opposed to leaving in general and to Fëanor in particular, and he’s pretty temperamental about it: “But Finweg cried Fingolfin’s son when his father found that fair counsel, that wit and wisdom were of worth no more: ‘Fools” (HoME III, p. 136) 

Fingon’s opposition to Fëanor and to leaving Valinor, while surprising for modern readers, is quite a consistent element for decades. 

It’s the same in the Sketch of the Mythology (1926). After the death of the Trees, “Fëanor makes a violent speech” and the oath is sworn, but “Fingolfin and Finweg speak against him”; however, the Noldor “vote for flight”, “and Fingolfin and Finweg yield; they will not desert their people, but they retain command over a half of the people of the Noldoli.” (HoME IV, p. 18, fn omitted) Note that it’s not Fingolfin’s people, it’s Fingolfin and Fingon’s people. 

Fëanor and his people seize the ships, cross the sea and burn the ships (Maedhros included). Notably, Fingolfin now returns to Valinor, while Fingon leads the second host over the Ice: “Fingolfin’s people wander miserably. Some under Fingolfin return to Valinor to seek the Gods’ pardon. Finweg leads the main host North, and over the Grinding Ice. Many are lost.” (HoME IV, p. 18, fn omitted) This was later changed, so that Fingolfin didn’t return to Valinor, but went to Middle-earth; specifically, unlike the abandonment of the idea of Maglor killing his brothers, it doesn’t already appear in the text, but only in (later) alterations via footnotes. 

In the Quenta Noldorinwa (1930), these elements essentially all reappear. Again Fingolfin and Fingon speak out against Fëanor/leaving Valinor: “Fingolfin and his son Finweg spake against Fëanor, and wrath and angry words came near to blows” (HoME IV, p. 95, fn omitted). Fingolfin is now firmly also with the second host, but Fingon is still central: The Sons of Fëanor at Mithrim “heard of the march of Fingolfin and Finweg and Felagund, who had crossed the Grinding Ice.” (HoME IV, p. 101–102, fn omitted) Note that the “Gnomes of Tûn” are now involved in the First Kinslaying, but not Fingon (HoME IV, p. 95). Fingon also does not urge on his father after Alqualondë (cf HoME IV, p. 96). 

In the Later Annals of Valinor (late 1930s), Fingon is not mentioned either when Fëanor rouses the Noldor to rebellion or where the First Kinslaying is concerned (HoME V, p. 115). After the Doom of Mandos, Fëanor continued, “and with him went still, but reluctantly, Fingolfin’s folk, feeling the constraint of their kinship and of the will of Fëanor; they feared also the doom of the Gods, for not all of Fingolfin’s people had been guiltless of the kinslaying.” (HoME V, p. 116) Fingon is not mentioned either here or on the Ice. 

The Quenta Silmarillion (late 1930s) is similar: After the Oath, “Fingolfin and his son Fingon spake against Fëanor, and there was wrath and angry words that came near to blows. But [Finarfin] spake gently and persuasively, and sought to calm them, urging them to pause and ponder, ere deeds were done that could not be undone. But of his own sons Inglor alone spake with him; Angrod and Egnor took the part of Fëanor, and Orodreth stood aside.” (HoME V, p. 234) However, Fingolfin and his sons are eventually persuaded to join: “The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people” (HoME V, p. 235). This (internal) reluctance of Fingolfin and his sons, including Fingon, remains: the Valar forbid the march, Fëanor hurries on, “The hosts of Fingolfin followed less eagerly” (HoME V, p. 235). At Alqualondë, “the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin” (HoME V, p. 236); Fingon is not mentioned. After the Doom of Mandos, “all of Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, being constrained by the will of Fëanor and fearing also to face the doom of the Gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë.” (HoME V, p. 237) Still, Fingon remains an important leader after the ship-burning/on the Ice: “Therefore led by Fingolfin, and Fingon, Turgon, and Inglor, they ventured into the bitterest North” (HoME V, p. 238). 

There are two relevant texts published in HoME X, the first phase of the Later QS and the Annals of Aman. While the writing periods overlapped, in this particular instance, we know that the LQ1 text is older than the relevant part of the AAm text, since Christopher Tolkien writes the following about the LQ1 text in question: “This is almost word for word the same as AAm §156, the only real difference being the mention here that Fingon and Turgon had no part in the kinslaying. That the rewriting of QS preceded the passage in AAm, however, is shown by the fact that Olwë is here a later change from Elwë.” (HoME X, p. 196) 

So let’s start with the Later QS text. The relevant passage is part of the LQ1 phase = 1951 (HoME X, p. 194). 

The debate in Tirion begins to change: “‘But of his own sons Inglor alone spake with him [Finarfin]; Angrod and Egnor took the part of Fëanor, and Orodreth stood aside’ > ‘But of his own children Inglor alone spoke in like manner; for Angrod and Egnor and Galadriel were with Fingon, whereas Orodreth stood aside and spoke not.’ As AAm was first written the same account of the associations of the Noldorin princes was given, but it was changed immediately: see AAm §135 (pp. 112, 125), and p. 121, note 12.” (HoME X, p. 195) However, this does not mean what you’d first assume it means. This alteration needs to be read in conjunction with QS § 68 (printed in HoME V, p. 234), where Fingon (and Fingolfin) angrily speak against Fëanor, nearly leading to physical violence, while [Finarfin] and [Finrod Felagund] gently urge caution and restraint, and Angrod and Aegnor take Fëanor’s side. So the LQ1 alteration on its face means that Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel are (1) angrily and emotionally (2) opposed to Fëanor. This is a significant change, but not for Fingon. Instead, it signals a fundamental shift in the characters of Angrod and Aegnor, who in previous versions had been close to the Sons of Fëanor (in particular Celegorm and Curufin, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1muv6q9/the_apotheosis_of_the_house_of_finarfin/), an element which Tolkien abandoned in 1951 as he wrote the LQ1 and AAm, as Christopher Tolkien explains (HoME X, p. 126, 182, 195–196). Angrod and Aegnor, like their brothers (including Finrod Felagund), instead become the friends of the sons of Fingolfin (one or both) now. 

Meanwhile, Fingon specifically is not involved in the First Kinslaying yet, although the idea that Fingon (and Turgon) actually want to go now (even if they did not initially in Tirion) now appears: 

“Then [Finarfin] turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the house of Fëanor because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna, still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor again. And they received the pardon of the Valar, and [Finarfin] was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon, though they had no part in that deed, were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and all too swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.” (HoME X, p. 196)

The Annals of Aman show us the last stage of the textual development: 

After Fëanor and his sons swear the oath, there is a debate in Tirion among the princes, and now, the alignments shift even more in general, and Fingon’s role in particular changes drastically: 

  • Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords. But [Finarfin], who was skilled also in words, spoke softly, as his wont was, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone. But of his own sons Orodreth alone spoke in like manner; for Inglor was with Turgon his friend, [fn. 12] whereas Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled her heart, and she yearned to see the wide untrodden lands and to rule there a realm maybe at her own will. For youngest of the House of Finwë she came into the world west of the Sea, and knew yet nought of the unguarded lands. Of like mind was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little; [fn. 13] and with Fingon as ever stood Angrod and Egnor, sons of [Finarfin]. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.” (HoME X, p. 112–113, fn omitted) 
  • Fn 12: “The associations of the Noldorin princes were different as this passage was first written: ‘Fingolfin and his sons Fingon and Turgon spoke against Fëanor’, and ‘of [Finrod’s] own sons Inglor alone spoke in like manner, for Angrod and Egnor were with Fingon, and Orodreth stood aside; whereas Galadriel…’ But the changes that give the text printed appear to have been made immediately, since the passage at the end of the paragraph belongs to the original writing of the text.” (HoME X, p. 121) 
  • Fn. 13: “Struck out here: ‘and his sons less’ (cf. the passage in §160 where Fingon’s friendship with Maidros is referred to).” (HoME X, p. 121)

 

That is, Fingon now wants to leave even though he apparently dislikes Fëanor, but he doesn’t say anything at the debate, which makes me wonder how Pengolodh, the narrator, knows that Fingon wanted to go because he (1) wished to explore Beleriand, and (2) wished to rule a realm of his own. Importantly, Tolkien initially wrote that Fingon disliked Fëanor’s sons, but deleted that, because Fingon’s prior relationship with Maedhros now appears. 

(Regarding this passage, Christopher Tolkien writes: “As AAm was first written (see note 12 above) the alignments of the Noldorin princes were already changed from the account in QS (§68), since Angrod and Egnor were now opposed to Fëanor — and Galadriel now has a part in the matter, being eager to leave Aman. As rewritten, a more subtle alignment is portrayed: for Fingon now independently urges departure, and Angrod and Egnor move with him. Of Fingolfin’s sons Turgon alone now supports his father, but Inglor stands with him; and Orodreth moves into Inglor’s place as the only one of his sons to support Finrod.” (HoME X, p. 125) Except that Fingon apparently doesn’t urge departure, but rather remains silent.) 

Fingon now becomes a central reason why Fingolfin leaves in the first place, spurring him on repeatedly:

  • “And indeed when Fëanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting out, then at once dissension arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as king. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them. Thus at the last the Noldor set forth divided in two hosts. Fëanor and his following were in the van; but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin. And he marched against his wisdom, because Fingon his son so urged him, and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor. With Fingolfin went [Finarfin] also and for like reason; but most loath was he to depart.” (HoME X, p. 113) 
  • “In that hour the voice of Fëanor grew so great and so potent that even the herald of the Valar bowed before him as one full-answered, and departed; and the Noldor were overruled. Therefore they continued their march; and the House of Fëanor hastened before them along the coasts of Elendë: and not once did they turn their eyes backward to Tirion upon Túna. Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of these Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went [Finarfin] and Inglor, and many of the fairest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss that they had forsaken, and some even of the fair things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.” (HoME X, p. 114–115)
  • Alqualondë: “Thrice the folk of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar.” (HoME X, p. 116)  
  • After the Doom of Mandos, Finarfin returns to Valinor, “But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was forespoken began its work.” (HoME X, p. 118)

 

That is, the AAm is where quite a few things that we know Fingon (and that are drastically different from all prior iterations of his story) for first appear: (1) Fingon wanting to leave (as opposed to joining FIngolfin’s arguments against Fëanor), (2) Fingon urging on his father (repeatedly), (3) Fingon intervening at Alqualondë, (4) Fingon’s previous relationship with Maedhros, and (5) Maedhros refusing to burn the ships because of Fingon.

Fingon now becomes the most pro-Fëanorian non-Fëanorian. He’s independent and exhibits a great deal of agency. He makes his own choices and makes his father, theoretically the king from (supposedly) Fingon’s perspective, do whatever Fingon wants, and that is to leave Valinor and go to Beleriand. 

Why? 

Pengolodh tells us that, like Galadriel, Fingon—even though he does not say so at the debate—wanted to go because he wished to (1) explore Beleriand, and (2) rule a realm of his own. 

Ironically, Fingon does neither to any particular degree. Finrod is famously the one who does the most hunting and exploring of all the House of Finwë in Beleriand: “Thus the sons of Fëanor under the leadership of Maidros were lords of East Beleriand, but their folk was in that time mostly in the north of the land; and southward they rode only to hunt, and to seek solitude for a while. And thither for like purpose the other Elflords would sometimes come, for the land was wild but very fair; and of these Inglor came most often, for he had great love of wandering, and he came even into Ossiriand and won friendship of the Green-elves.” (HoME V, p. 265) (This particular passage from the QS was not changed in the Later QS stage, but the second half of this paragraph was extensively rewritten, indicating that Tolkien still agreed with the contents of the first half; cf HoME XI, p. 197.) While pretty much everyone else hunts and rides in East Beleriand (Maedhros and Maglor with Finrod, who does even more exploring and discovers Men; Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir; Amrod and Amras; Aredhel), Fingon does not

And as for ruling, Fingon evidently could not care less. His first action in Beleriand is a suicide mission to rescue his father’s main political rival or get killed in the attempt. Fingon’s much younger brother Turgon establishes two kingdoms (Vinyamar and Gondolin) in a century, as does his much younger cousin Finrod, and Fingon prefers to remain living with Fingolfin in Barad Eithel. Fingolfin hands him the lordship of Dor-Lómin, but he actually takes it away later, and Fingon approves: When Fingolfin gives Fingon’s fiefdom to the House of Hador, Fingon gives Hador a gift for his investiture! (UT, p. 98) And when Fingolfin dies, Fingon nominally becomes High King of the Noldor, and Maedhros is wholly in charge—with Fingon’s full cooperation in the Union of Maedhros: “And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring.” (HoME XI, p. 70)

Anyway, both justifications (which Fingon didn’t even voice at the debate!) seem dubious given Fingon’s entire subsequent behaviour, but at the same time, he’s really into following Fëanor in the AAm. He keeps spurring on Fingolfin repeatedly and intervenes at Alqualondë when he sees the other Noldor in danger, unlike in all previous versions! 

What changed? 

Well, one thing changed that explains all of this. 

  • “Of like mind was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little and his sons less” (cf HoME X, p. 113, 121). 
  • “But when they were landed, Maidros the eldest of his sons (and on a time a friend of Fingon ere Morgoth’s lies came between) spoke to Fëanor, saying: ‘Now what ships and men wilt thou spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?’” (HoME X, p. 119)

 

That’s the new element that changed everything: Fingon and Maedhros

And that’s why Fingon wanted to go to Middle-earth, and that’s why he intervened at Alqualondë. Structurally, these elements appeared in conjunction with his “ancient friendship” with Maedhros, and as such, Fingon did these things because of his previous relationship with Maedhros. 

And now, Fingon-and-Maedhros becomes central in motivating Fingon’s choices and actions not only in (leaving) Valinor, but explicitly in Beleriand as well: 

  • Grey Annals (1951): “Here Fingon the Valiant resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor, ere their Enemy should be ready for war; for the earth trembled in the north-lands with the thunder of the forges of Morgoth. Moreover the thought of his ancient friendship with Maidros stung his heart with grief (though he knew not yet that Maidros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships). Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maidros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. In the Quenta it is told how at the last he found Maidros, by singing a song of Valinor alone in the dark mountains, and was aided by Thorondor the Eagle, who bore him aloft unto Maidros; but the bond of steel he could in no wise release and must sever the hand that it held. Thus he rescued his friend of old from torment, and their love was renewed; and the hatred between the houses of Fingolfin and Fëanor was assuaged. Thereafter Maidros wielded his sword in his left hand.” (HoME XI, p. 31–32) (Christopher Tolkien believes the Grey Annals to have been written after but close to the Annals of Aman, HoME XI, p. 4.)
  • Later QS (1958): “A subheading was pencilled in the margin at the beginning of this paragraph: Of Fingon and Maedros (apparently first written Maidros: see p. 115, §61). Not found in LQ 1, this was incorporated in LQ 2. […] To the words ‘for the thought of his torment troubled his heart’ was added (not in LQ 1): ‘and long before, in the bliss of Valinor, ere Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, he had been close in friendship with Maedros.’” (HoME XI, p. 177) 
  • Unlike in earlier versions, it’s now highlighted that Maedhros’s relationship with the princes in the West remains close; not only is Maedhros and Fingon’s love renewed, but Maedhros also remains a friend of what boils down to Fingolfin and Finrod. This is confirmed by a passage in the Grey Annals about the Union of Maedhros: “And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring.” (HoME XI, p. 70) There is no “he renewed friendship with Fingon in the West, and they acted thereafter in concert” (HoME V, p. 307), because there is nothing to renew.

 

Isn’t this sweet? (Don’t think about what happens in F.A. 472.)  

Sources 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

How much money do the Thorpes have—or, how does John Thorpe have fifty guineas (!) to spend on a fancy carriage?

They clearly have less than the Allens, and Isabella seems to have nothing. But John Thorpe is always talking about these outrageously expensive transactions. Is he just lying about the prices of the carriage and all the horses (seems very in character) or is he massively financially irresponsible and depriving his younger siblings of their hope for an inheritance (also very in character)?

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

James Morland has an unbelievably poor taste in people

It's actually staggering! He's been in the novel for less than a chapter, and my opinion of his discernment, taste and understanding literally could not be lower. Isabella unaffected and amiable, and John Thorpe good-natured and, in women's eyes, charming? lol

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Of Kisses

There is very little kissing in Tolkien’s works, and especially not kisses on the mouth (as opposed to kisses on foreheads and hands). But since this topic has come up repeatedly, I was curious and had a look at how many and what kinds of kisses are mentioned in the Legendarium. 

For this purpose, I tried to find all kisses mentioned in all First, Second and Third Age texts. I searched the term “kiss” in LOTR, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoME III, IV, V, X, XI, XII digitally, so the the quotes for those works are complete. 

HoME II

Since I do not have the digital version, I did not conduct a full search. These are the kisses I was aware of: 

  • In the Tale of Tinúviel, Lúthien wakes an unconscious and dying Beren with a kiss: “she fell upon Beren’s breast and wept and kissed him, and he awoke and knew her” (HoME II, p. 40). 
  • In Turambar and the Foalókë, just after killing Beleg and while in huge danger from the Orcs, Túrin ignores said danger: “Flinding shook him, bidding him gather his wits or perish, and then Túrin did as he was bid but yet as one dazed, and stooping he raised Beleg and kissed his mouth.” (HoME II, p. 80) This is the first kiss explicitly on the mouth that I’m aware of in the Legendarium.

 

HoME III

  • In the Lay of the Children of Húrin, when Túrin begs Beleg not to betray to Thingol’s lords that he is living with the outlaws, Beleg embraces and kisses him: “Then Beleg of the bow embraced him there […]/there kissed him kindly comfort speaking” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 592–594).
  • In the Lay of the Children of Húrin, Flinding begins to bury Beleg, “But Túrin tearless turning suddenly/on the corse cast him, and kissed the mouth/cold and open, and closed the eyes.” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 1403–1405) This is not what happens when Boromir is dying: Aragorn kisses his brow (LOTR, p. 414), not his open mouth. Also, this is the second and last kiss explicitly on the mouth that I’m aware of in the Legendarium. 
  • Morwen bidding her son Túrin farewell: “The last kisses and lingering words” (HoME III, Second Version of the Lay of the Children of Húrin, line 330). 
  • Beren kisses Lúthien’s eyes: “And Beren caught that elfin maid/And kissed her trembling starlit eyes” (HoME III, Second Version of the Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 459–460). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “His voice such love and longing filled one moment stood she, fear was stilled; one moment only; like a flame he leaped towards her as she stayed and caught and kissed that elfin maid.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 741–745). Referring to this, Beren lay, swooning, “enchanted of an elvish kiss” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, line 761). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “One morning as asleep she lay upon the moss, as though the day too bitter were for gentle flower to open in a sunless hour, Beren arose and kissed her hair, and wept, and softly left her there.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 3228–3233). 
  • Morgoth to Lúthien: “Yet I will give a respite brief, a while to live, a little while, though purchased dear, to Luthien the fair and clear, a pretty toy for idle hour. In slothful gardens many a flower like thee the amorous gods are used honey-sweet to kiss, and cast then bruised, their fragrance loosing, under feet.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 4024–4032). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “Beren lies dying before the gate. Tinúviel’s song as she kisses his hand and prepares to die.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, Unwritten Cantos)

 

HoME IV 

  • “There beneath the beech, wherein before she had been imprisoned, Lúthien met them, and kissed Beren ere his spirit departed to the halls of awaiting.” (HoME IV, Quenta Noldorinwa [10])

 

HoME V, X, XII

There are no kisses mentioned in any of these books. 

HoME XI

  • Nienor and Túrin: “Then, finding his hand that was burned, she laved it with tears and bound it about with a strip of her raiment, and kissed him and cried on him again to awake.” (HoME XI, Grey Annals, § 333) 
  • Manthor and Húrin: “coming to Húrin as he lay he knelt and raised his hand and kissed it.” (HoME XI, The Wanderings of Húrin)

 

Unfinished Tales 

  • Húrin kisses his son Túrin on Túrin’s birthday (UT, Narn). 
  • Nienor kisses Túrin, who is leaving against her will: “Then Níniel ceased to weep and fell silent, but her kiss was cold as they parted.” (UT, Narn
  • Nienor kisses Túrin, who is unconscious: “Then she threw herself down by him weeping, and kissed him; and it seemed to her that he breathed faintly, but she thought it but a trickery of false hope, for he was cold, and did not move, nor did he answer her. […] But still he did not move at her touch, and she kissed him again […].” (UT, Narn) Interestingly, this idea of Nienor throwing herself onto the corpse and kissing it is an echo of how Túrin had reacted to Beleg’s death in the Lay of the Children of Húrin: “But Túrin tearless turning suddenly/on the corse cast him, and kissed the mouth/cold and open, and closed the eyes.” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 1403–1405)
  • Aldarion and Erendis, at a pivotal moment in their tumultuous relationship, just before they get betrothed: “Then he kissed her on the eyes, and in that moment she put aside fear, and accepted him; and their troth was plighted upon the steep path of the Meneltarma.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Aldarion and his young daughter: “Next morning Aldarion hastened away. He lifted up Ancalimë and kissed her; but though she clung to him he set her down quickly and rode off.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Aldarion and his now estranged daughter: “He kissed the hand of Ancalimë and went down the steps; then he mounted and rode away with a wave of his hand.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Isildur and his esquire: “The Orcs were now drawing near. Isildur turned to his esquire: ‘Ohtar,’ he said, ‘I give this now into your keeping’; and he delivered to him the great sheath and the shards of Narsil, Elendil’s sword. ‘Save it from capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me. Take your companion with you and flee! Go! I command you!’ Then Ohtar knelt and kissed his hand, and the two young men fled down into the dark valley.” (UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, fn omitted) 
  • Isildur and Elendur: “‘King’s son,’ said Isildur, ‘I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom.’ Elendur kissed him. ‘Go! Go now!’ he said.” (UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, fn omitted)

 

Children of Húrin 

Since I do not have the digital version, I did not conduct a full search, but only checked Túrin’s reaction to Beleg’s death. Túrin’s reaction now is completely different: instead of an emotional outburst, he becomes catatonic for months, not crying, not moving on his own (when Gwindor makes him move he moves like a sleepwalker), and not speaking for months until they cross the Sirion (CoH, p. 155–157). Only then does he start crying for the first time (CoH, p. 157)  

Silmarillion 

  • Beren and Lúthien, just before Beren dies: “At the feet of Hírilorn the great beech Luthien met them walking slow, and some bore torches beside the bier. There she set her arms about Beren, and kissed him, bidding him await her beyond the Western Sea; and he looked upon her eyes ere the spirit left him.” (Sil, QS, ch. 19) 
  • Nienor, finding Túrin unconscious and injured by Glaurung: “Then finding that his hand was burned she washed it with tears and bound it about with a strip of her raiment, and she kissed him and cried on him again to awake.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21)

 

LOTR 

  • Aragorn kisses a dying Boromir’s forehead: “‘Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.’ ‘No!’ said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!’” (LOTR, The Departure of Boromir) 
  • Sam not kissing Frodo’s hand seems notable: “Sam nodded silently. He took his master’s hand and bent over it. He did not kiss it, though his tears fell on it.” (LOTR, The Passage of the Marshes) 
  • Faramir saying goodbye to Frodo and Sam: “He embraced the hobbits then, after the manner of his people, stooping, and placing his hands upon their shoulders, and kissing their foreheads.” (LOTR, Journey to the Cross-Roads) 
  • Sam says this about Gollum: “‘Well, I suppose you’re right, Mr. Frodo,’ said Sam. ‘Not that it comforts me mightily. I don’t make no mistake: I don’t doubt he’d hand me over to Orcs as gladly as kiss his hand. […]’” (LOTR, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol) I’m not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean. 
  • Sam, believing that Frodo is dead: “He stooped. Very gently he undid the clasp at the neck and slipped his hand inside Frodo’s tunic; then with his other hand raising the head, he kissed the cold forehead, and softly drew the chain over it. And then the head lay quietly back again in rest. No change came over the still face, and by that more than by all other tokens Sam was convinced at last that Frodo had died and laid aside the Quest.” (LOTR, The Choices of Master Samwise) 
  • Merry, swearing fealty to Théoden: “‘I have a sword,’ said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. ‘May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Théoden King?’ he cried. ‘Receive my service, if you will!’” (LOTR, The Passing of the Grey Company) 
  • Aragorn after refusing to let Éowyn accompany him: “Then she fell on her knees, saying: ‘I beg thee!’ ‘Nay, lady,’ he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.” (LOTR, The Passing of the Grey Company) 
  • Merry when Théoden lies dying: “Then Merry stooped and lifted his hand to kiss it, and lo! Théoden opened his eyes, and they were clear, and he spoke in a quiet voice though laboured.” (LOTR, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields) 
  • Aragorn healing an unconscious Éowyn: “Then Aragorn stooped and looked in her face, and it was indeed white as a lily, cold as frost, and hard as graven stone. But he bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying: ‘Éowyn Éomund’s daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!’” (LOTR, The Houses of Healing) 
  • Merry apologising to Aragorn, and Aragorn returning the kiss: “Merry seized his hand and kissed it. ‘I am frightfully sorry,’ he said. ‘Go at once! Ever since that night at Bree we have been a nuisance to you. But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place.’ ‘I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,’ said Aragorn. ‘May the Shire live for ever unwithered!’ And kissing Merry he went out, and Gandalf went with him.” (LOTR, The Houses of Healing) 
  • Sam after rescuing Frodo: “‘Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!’ cried Sam, tears almost blinding him. ‘It’s Sam, I’ve come!’ He half lifted his master and hugged him to his breast. Frodo opened his eyes. ‘Am I still dreaming?’ he muttered. ‘But the other dreams were horrible.’ ‘You’re not dreaming at all, Master,’ said Sam. ‘It’s real. It’s me. I’ve come.’ ‘I can hardly believe it,’ said Frodo, clutching him. ‘There was an orc with a whip, and then it turns into Sam! Then I wasn’t dreaming after all when I heard that singing down below, and I tried to answer? Was it you?’ ‘It was indeed, Mr. Frodo. I’d given up hope, almost. I couldn’t find you.’ ‘Well, you have now, Sam, dear Sam,’ said Frodo, and he lay back in Sam’s gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice or hand. Sam felt that he could sit like that in endless happiness; but it was not allowed. It was not enough for him to find his master, he had still to try and save him. He kissed Frodo’s forehead. ‘Come! Wake up, Mr. Frodo!’ he said, trying to sound as cheerful as he had when he drew back the curtains at Bag End on a summer’s morning.” (LOTR, The Tower of Cirith Ungol)  
  • Frodo is weak and in a fey mood on the road: “‘No, I am afraid not, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades?’ Sam went to him and kissed his hand. ‘Then the sooner we’re rid of it, the sooner to rest,’ he said haltingly, finding no better words to say.” (LOTR, Mount Doom) 
  • Frodo’s state keeps getting worse: “Sam knelt by him. Faint, almost inaudibly, he heard Frodo whispering: ‘Help me, Sam! Help me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can’t stop it.’ Sam took his master’s hands and laid them together, palm to palm, and kissed them; and then he held them gently between his own.” (LOTR, Mount Doom)
  • Faramir, who’s quickly falling in love with Éowyn: “‘No,’ said Faramir, looking into her face. ‘It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!’ And he stooped and kissed her brow.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King) 
  • From Éowyn and Faramir’s courtship: “‘Then must I leave my own people, man of Gondor?’ she said. ‘And would you have your proud folk say of you: “There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Númenor to choose?”’ ‘I would,’ said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King)
  • Beregond after Aragorn “punishes” him for insubordination with a promotion and a move to a few miles away: “And then Beregond, perceiving the mercy and justice of the King, was glad, and kneeling kissed his hand, and departed in joy and content.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King)
  • Merry and Éowyn, sister-daughter of his dead liege-lord Théoden, after the war: “‘This is an heirloom of our house,’ said Éowyn. ‘It was made by the Dwarves, and came from the hoard of Scatha the Worm. Eorl the Young brought it from the North. He that blows it at need shall set fear in the hearts of his enemies and joy in the hearts of his friends, and they shall hear him and come to him.’ Then Merry took the horn, for it could not be refused, and he kissed Éowyn’s hand; and they embraced him, and so they parted for that time.” (LOTR, Many Partings) 
  • The Hobbits saying goodbye forever: “‘Yes,’ said Gandalf; ‘for it will be better to ride back three together than one alone. Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.’ Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went aboard; and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.” (LOTR, The Grey Havens) 
  • Aragorn kissing Arwen’s hand just before dying: “‘Estel, Estel!’ she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.” (LOTR, App. A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

In total, there are references to 22 distinct kisses in LOTR and 24 in the other texts I checked, for a total of 46 kisses that either happened (44) or did not happen (2: Morgoth’s story to Lúthien, Sam not kissing Frodo’s hands for once). 

Characters 

There are 22 kisses between male and female characters: 

  • Beren and Lúthien (7): “kiss” with no specification where (4), Beren kissing her eyes (1), Beren kissing her hair (1), Lúthien kissing his hand (1). 
  • Morwen and Túrin (1): “kisses” with no specification where (1). 
  • Nienor and Túrin (5): “kiss” with no specification where (5).  
  • Aldarion and Erendis (1): he kisses her “on the eyes”. 
  • Aldarion and his daughter (2): “kiss” with no specification where (1), he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Éowyn (2): Aragorn kisses her hand (1) and her forehead (1). 
  • Faramir and Éowyn (2): Faramir kisses her forehead (1), “kiss” not specified where but more salacious than hand/forehead (1). 
  • Merry and Éowyn (1): he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Arwen (1): he kisses her hand (1).

 

There are 22 kisses between male characters: 

  • Túrin and Beleg (3): Beleg kisses Túrin not specified where (1), Túrin kisses dead Beleg’s (open) mouth (2). 
  • Manthor and Húrin (1): Manthor kisses Húrin’s hand (1). 
  • Húrin and Túrin (1): Húrin kisses his son not specified where (1). 
  • Isildur and Ohtar (1): Isildur’s esquire kisses his hand (1). 
  • Isildur and Elendur (1): Isildur’s son kisses him not specified where (1). 
  • Aragorn and Boromir (1): Aragorn kisses Boromir’s forehead (1). 
  • Frodo and Sam (5): Sam kisses Frodo’s hand(s) (2), Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead (2), Frodo kisses Sam not specified where (1). 
  • Faramir kisses the Hobbits (2): Faramir kisses the foreheads of Frodo (1) and Sam (1). 
  • Merry kisses Théoden’s hand (2). 
  • Merry kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Aragorn kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Beregond kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Pippin not specified where (1).

 

(I am not aware of kisses between female characters. Given how little “screen time” Tolkien’s female characters share, that is not surprising.) 

Of the 44 kisses that happened, 13 are on the hand, 7 are on the forehead, 2 are on the eyelids, 1 is on hair, 2 are on the mouth, and 19 are not specified where.

Relationships and types of kisses 

There are 18 kisses involving a power imbalance, such as lord/vassal, master/servant, healer/patient or some other kind of respectful elder/younger or in-one’s-power relationship, usually on the forehead or hand: 

  • Manthor and Húrin (1): Manthor kisses Húrin’s hand (1). 
  • Isildur and Ohtar (1): Isildur’s esquire kisses his hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Boromir (1): Aragorn kisses Boromir’s forehead (1). 
  • Frodo and Sam (5): Sam kisses Frodo’s hand(s) (2), Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead (2), Frodo kisses Sam not specified where (1). 
  • Merry kisses Théoden’s hand (2). 
  • Merry and Éowyn (1): he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Merry kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Aragorn kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Beregond kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Faramir kisses the Hobbits (2): Faramir kisses the foreheads of Frodo (1) and Sam (1). (This one is a bit doubtful here, but I think that it fits best.) 
  • Aragorn and Éowyn (2): Aragorn kisses her hand (1) and her forehead (1). (Equally doubtful, but I believe that it fits.)

 

Roughly, it seems like the vassal (or similarly less powerful party) usually kisses the hand (which fits the historical practice of proskynesis), and the liege-lord (or similarly more powerful party) usually kisses the forehead. Frodo and Sam’s relationship begins as a distinct master-servant relationship that changes under extreme pressure into something more equal, so it makes sense that it’s mixed. The same applies to Aragorn and Éowyn: he kisses her on the hand as a woman and princess, and later on the forehead as a patient. In general, forehead kisses also often seem to involve the person being kissed being grievously injured, sick or dying (Aragorn → Boromir, Sam → Frodo, Aragorn → Éowyn), or a goodbye (Faramir → Frodo and Sam). 

There are five kisses between children and parents: 

  • Morwen and her young son Túrin (1): “kisses” with no specification where (1). 
  • Aldarion and his daughter (2): “kiss” with no specification where (1), he (years later) kisses her hand (1). 
  • Húrin and his young son Túrin (1): Húrin kisses his son not specified where (1). 
  • Isildur and his adult son Elendur (1): Isildur’s son kisses him not specified where (1).

 

(Parent-child relationships are also hierarchical, especially when the child is young, but it’s also a distinct category from the more feudal kind of category above.) 

There are two (goodbye) kisses between friends who had always been friends: 

  • Frodo kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Pippin not specified where (1).

 

(You could put Frodo and Sam here as well, but given that the relationship starts out as a master-servant kind of thing, I kept it in the previous category, even if it equalises a lot by the end. Still, even in the last chapter, Sam calls Frodo Mr. Frodo while Frodo calls him Sam without a title; Pippin, by comparison, calls him Frodo. Frodo and Sam clearly love each other deeply, but the master element remains present.) 

There are 16 kisses between lovers (couples who are or will get married): 

  • Beren and Lúthien (7): “kiss” with no specification where (4), Beren kissing her eyes (1), Beren kissing her hair (1), Lúthien kissing his hand (1). 
  • Nienor and Túrin (5): “kiss” with no specification where (5).  
  • Aldarion and Erendis (1): he kisses her “on the eyes”. 
  • Faramir and Éowyn (2): Faramir kisses her forehead (1), “kiss” not specified where but more salacious than hand/forehead (1). 
  • Aragorn and Arwen (1): he kisses her hand (1).

 

It’s interesting that even in this category, we have hand kisses just before someone (Aragorn, Beren) is dying, and plenty of chaste kisses. The one forehead kiss is when Éowyn’s spirits are still not fully healed. Kisses on the eyelids and hair are treated as specifically romantic. There is no explicit kiss on the mouth. 

Or rather, there is—there are

  • Túrin and Beleg (3): Beleg kisses Túrin not specified where (1), Túrin kisses dead Beleg’s (open) mouth (2).

 

And I find it very hard not to put them in the “Lovers” category.

In total: most “pairs” get only one kiss or at most two. The exceptions are Beren and Lúthien (7) (various), Frodo and Sam (5) (various), Nienor and Túrin (5) (all unspecified where), and Túrin and Beleg (3) (mouth or unspecified). Hand and forehead kisses often but not always denote a hierarchical relationship (of various flavours);  most of these hierarchical relationships are loving and respectful despite the hierarchy. 

Sources 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition September 2029, version 2019-09-02 [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition December 2018, version 2019-10-21 [cited as: HoME IV].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition December 2021, version 2021-12-21 [cited as: HoME XI].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition March 2009, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: UT].

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins 2005, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR]. 

The Children of Húrin, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: CoH]. 

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Of Kisses in the Legendarium

There is very little kissing in Tolkien’s works, and especially not kisses on the mouth (as opposed to kisses on foreheads and hands). But since this topic has come up repeatedly, I was curious and had a look at how many and what kinds of kisses are mentioned in the Legendarium. 

For this purpose, I tried to find all kisses mentioned in all First, Second and Third Age texts. I searched the term “kiss” in LOTR, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoME III, IV, V, X, XI, XII digitally, so the the quotes for those works are complete. 

HoME II

Since I do not have the digital version, I did not conduct a full search. These are the kisses I was aware of: 

  • In the Tale of Tinúviel, Lúthien wakes an unconscious and dying Beren with a kiss: “she fell upon Beren’s breast and wept and kissed him, and he awoke and knew her” (HoME II, p. 40). 
  • In Turambar and the Foalókë, just after killing Beleg and while in huge danger from the Orcs, Túrin ignores said danger: “Flinding shook him, bidding him gather his wits or perish, and then Túrin did as he was bid but yet as one dazed, and stooping he raised Beleg and kissed his mouth.” (HoME II, p. 80) This is the first kiss explicitly on the mouth that I’m aware of in the Legendarium.

 

HoME III

  • In the Lay of the Children of Húrin, when Túrin begs Beleg not to betray to Thingol’s lords that he is living with the outlaws, Beleg embraces and kisses him: “Then Beleg of the bow embraced him there […]/there kissed him kindly comfort speaking” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 592–594).
  • In the Lay of the Children of Húrin, Flinding begins to bury Beleg, “But Túrin tearless turning suddenly/on the corse cast him, and kissed the mouth/cold and open, and closed the eyes.” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 1403–1405) This is not what happens when Boromir is dying: Aragorn kisses his brow (LOTR, p. 414), not his open mouth. Also, this is the second and last kiss explicitly on the mouth that I’m aware of in the Legendarium. 
  • Morwen bidding her son Túrin farewell: “The last kisses and lingering words” (HoME III, Second Version of the Lay of the Children of Húrin, line 330). 
  • Beren kisses Lúthien’s eyes: “And Beren caught that elfin maid/And kissed her trembling starlit eyes” (HoME III, Second Version of the Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 459–460). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “His voice such love and longing filled one moment stood she, fear was stilled; one moment only; like a flame he leaped towards her as she stayed and caught and kissed that elfin maid.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 741–745). Referring to this, Beren lay, swooning, “enchanted of an elvish kiss” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, line 761). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “One morning as asleep she lay upon the moss, as though the day too bitter were for gentle flower to open in a sunless hour, Beren arose and kissed her hair, and wept, and softly left her there.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 3228–3233). 
  • Morgoth to Lúthien: “Yet I will give a respite brief, a while to live, a little while, though purchased dear, to Luthien the fair and clear, a pretty toy for idle hour. In slothful gardens many a flower like thee the amorous gods are used honey-sweet to kiss, and cast then bruised, their fragrance loosing, under feet.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 4024–4032). 
  • Beren and Lúthien: “Beren lies dying before the gate. Tinúviel’s song as she kisses his hand and prepares to die.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, Unwritten Cantos)

 

HoME IV 

  • “There beneath the beech, wherein before she had been imprisoned, Lúthien met them, and kissed Beren ere his spirit departed to the halls of awaiting.” (HoME IV, Quenta Noldorinwa [10])

 

HoME V, X, XII

There are no kisses mentioned in any of these books. 

HoME XI

  • Nienor and Túrin: “Then, finding his hand that was burned, she laved it with tears and bound it about with a strip of her raiment, and kissed him and cried on him again to awake.” (HoME XI, Grey Annals, § 333) 
  • Manthor and Húrin: “coming to Húrin as he lay he knelt and raised his hand and kissed it.” (HoME XI, The Wanderings of Húrin)

 

Unfinished Tales 

  • Húrin kisses his son Túrin on Túrin’s birthday (UT, Narn). 
  • Nienor kisses Túrin, who is leaving against her will: “Then Níniel ceased to weep and fell silent, but her kiss was cold as they parted.” (UT, Narn
  • Nienor kisses Túrin, who is unconscious: “Then she threw herself down by him weeping, and kissed him; and it seemed to her that he breathed faintly, but she thought it but a trickery of false hope, for he was cold, and did not move, nor did he answer her. […] But still he did not move at her touch, and she kissed him again […].” (UT, Narn) Interestingly, this idea of Nienor throwing herself onto the corpse and kissing it is an echo of how Túrin had reacted to Beleg’s death in the Lay of the Children of Húrin: “But Túrin tearless turning suddenly/on the corse cast him, and kissed the mouth/cold and open, and closed the eyes.” (HoME III, Lay of the Children of Húrin, lines 1403–1405)
  • Aldarion and Erendis, at a pivotal moment in their tumultuous relationship, just before they get betrothed: “Then he kissed her on the eyes, and in that moment she put aside fear, and accepted him; and their troth was plighted upon the steep path of the Meneltarma.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Aldarion and his young daughter: “Next morning Aldarion hastened away. He lifted up Ancalimë and kissed her; but though she clung to him he set her down quickly and rode off.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Aldarion and his now estranged daughter: “He kissed the hand of Ancalimë and went down the steps; then he mounted and rode away with a wave of his hand.” (UT, Aldarion and Erendis)
  • Isildur and his esquire: “The Orcs were now drawing near. Isildur turned to his esquire: ‘Ohtar,’ he said, ‘I give this now into your keeping’; and he delivered to him the great sheath and the shards of Narsil, Elendil’s sword. ‘Save it from capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me. Take your companion with you and flee! Go! I command you!’ Then Ohtar knelt and kissed his hand, and the two young men fled down into the dark valley.” (UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, fn omitted) 
  • Isildur and Elendur: “‘King’s son,’ said Isildur, ‘I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom.’ Elendur kissed him. ‘Go! Go now!’ he said.” (UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, fn omitted)

 

Children of Húrin 

Since I do not have the digital version, I did not conduct a full search, but only checked Túrin’s reaction to Beleg’s death. Túrin’s reaction now is completely different: instead of an emotional outburst, he becomes catatonic for months, not crying, not moving on his own (when Gwindor makes him move he moves like a sleepwalker), and not speaking for months until they cross the Sirion (CoH, p. 155–157). Only then does he start crying for the first time (CoH, p. 157)  

Silmarillion 

  • Beren and Lúthien, just before Beren dies: “At the feet of Hírilorn the great beech Luthien met them walking slow, and some bore torches beside the bier. There she set her arms about Beren, and kissed him, bidding him await her beyond the Western Sea; and he looked upon her eyes ere the spirit left him.” (Sil, QS, ch. 19) 
  • Nienor, finding Túrin unconscious and injured by Glaurung: “Then finding that his hand was burned she washed it with tears and bound it about with a strip of her raiment, and she kissed him and cried on him again to awake.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21)

 

LOTR 

  • Aragorn kisses a dying Boromir’s forehead: “‘Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.’ ‘No!’ said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!’” (LOTR, The Departure of Boromir) 
  • Sam not kissing Frodo’s hand seems notable: “Sam nodded silently. He took his master’s hand and bent over it. He did not kiss it, though his tears fell on it.” (LOTR, The Passage of the Marshes) 
  • Faramir saying goodbye to Frodo and Sam: “He embraced the hobbits then, after the manner of his people, stooping, and placing his hands upon their shoulders, and kissing their foreheads.” (LOTR, Journey to the Cross-Roads) 
  • Sam says this about Gollum: “‘Well, I suppose you’re right, Mr. Frodo,’ said Sam. ‘Not that it comforts me mightily. I don’t make no mistake: I don’t doubt he’d hand me over to Orcs as gladly as kiss his hand. […]’” (LOTR, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol) I’m not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean. 
  • Sam, believing that Frodo is dead: “He stooped. Very gently he undid the clasp at the neck and slipped his hand inside Frodo’s tunic; then with his other hand raising the head, he kissed the cold forehead, and softly drew the chain over it. And then the head lay quietly back again in rest. No change came over the still face, and by that more than by all other tokens Sam was convinced at last that Frodo had died and laid aside the Quest.” (LOTR, The Choices of Master Samwise) 
  • Merry, swearing fealty to Théoden: “‘I have a sword,’ said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. ‘May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Théoden King?’ he cried. ‘Receive my service, if you will!’” (LOTR, The Passing of the Grey Company) 
  • Aragorn after refusing to let Éowyn accompany him: “Then she fell on her knees, saying: ‘I beg thee!’ ‘Nay, lady,’ he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.” (LOTR, The Passing of the Grey Company) 
  • Merry when Théoden lies dying: “Then Merry stooped and lifted his hand to kiss it, and lo! Théoden opened his eyes, and they were clear, and he spoke in a quiet voice though laboured.” (LOTR, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields) 
  • Aragorn healing an unconscious Éowyn: “Then Aragorn stooped and looked in her face, and it was indeed white as a lily, cold as frost, and hard as graven stone. But he bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying: ‘Éowyn Éomund’s daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!’” (LOTR, The Houses of Healing) 
  • Merry apologising to Aragorn, and Aragorn returning the kiss: “Merry seized his hand and kissed it. ‘I am frightfully sorry,’ he said. ‘Go at once! Ever since that night at Bree we have been a nuisance to you. But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place.’ ‘I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,’ said Aragorn. ‘May the Shire live for ever unwithered!’ And kissing Merry he went out, and Gandalf went with him.” (LOTR, The Houses of Healing) 
  • Sam after rescuing Frodo: “‘Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!’ cried Sam, tears almost blinding him. ‘It’s Sam, I’ve come!’ He half lifted his master and hugged him to his breast. Frodo opened his eyes. ‘Am I still dreaming?’ he muttered. ‘But the other dreams were horrible.’ ‘You’re not dreaming at all, Master,’ said Sam. ‘It’s real. It’s me. I’ve come.’ ‘I can hardly believe it,’ said Frodo, clutching him. ‘There was an orc with a whip, and then it turns into Sam! Then I wasn’t dreaming after all when I heard that singing down below, and I tried to answer? Was it you?’ ‘It was indeed, Mr. Frodo. I’d given up hope, almost. I couldn’t find you.’ ‘Well, you have now, Sam, dear Sam,’ said Frodo, and he lay back in Sam’s gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice or hand. Sam felt that he could sit like that in endless happiness; but it was not allowed. It was not enough for him to find his master, he had still to try and save him. He kissed Frodo’s forehead. ‘Come! Wake up, Mr. Frodo!’ he said, trying to sound as cheerful as he had when he drew back the curtains at Bag End on a summer’s morning.” (LOTR, The Tower of Cirith Ungol)  
  • Frodo is weak and in a fey mood on the road: “‘No, I am afraid not, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades?’ Sam went to him and kissed his hand. ‘Then the sooner we’re rid of it, the sooner to rest,’ he said haltingly, finding no better words to say.” (LOTR, Mount Doom) 
  • Frodo’s state keeps getting worse: “Sam knelt by him. Faint, almost inaudibly, he heard Frodo whispering: ‘Help me, Sam! Help me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can’t stop it.’ Sam took his master’s hands and laid them together, palm to palm, and kissed them; and then he held them gently between his own.” (LOTR, Mount Doom)
  • Faramir, who’s quickly falling in love with Éowyn: “‘No,’ said Faramir, looking into her face. ‘It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!’ And he stooped and kissed her brow.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King) 
  • From Éowyn and Faramir’s courtship: “‘Then must I leave my own people, man of Gondor?’ she said. ‘And would you have your proud folk say of you: “There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Númenor to choose?”’ ‘I would,’ said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King)
  • Beregond after Aragorn “punishes” him for insubordination with a promotion and a move to a few miles away: “And then Beregond, perceiving the mercy and justice of the King, was glad, and kneeling kissed his hand, and departed in joy and content.” (LOTR, The Steward and the King)
  • Merry and Éowyn, sister-daughter of his dead liege-lord Théoden, after the war: “‘This is an heirloom of our house,’ said Éowyn. ‘It was made by the Dwarves, and came from the hoard of Scatha the Worm. Eorl the Young brought it from the North. He that blows it at need shall set fear in the hearts of his enemies and joy in the hearts of his friends, and they shall hear him and come to him.’ Then Merry took the horn, for it could not be refused, and he kissed Éowyn’s hand; and they embraced him, and so they parted for that time.” (LOTR, Many Partings) 
  • The Hobbits saying goodbye forever: “‘Yes,’ said Gandalf; ‘for it will be better to ride back three together than one alone. Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.’ Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went aboard; and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.” (LOTR, The Grey Havens) 
  • Aragorn kissing Arwen’s hand just before dying: “‘Estel, Estel!’ she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.” (LOTR, App. A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

In total, there are references to 22 distinct kisses in LOTR and 24 in the other texts I checked, for a total of 46 kisses that either happened (44) or did not happen (2: Morgoth’s story to Lúthien, Sam not kissing Frodo’s hands for once). 

Characters 

There are 22 kisses between male and female characters: 

  • Beren and Lúthien (7): “kiss” with no specification where (4), Beren kissing her eyes (1), Beren kissing her hair (1), Lúthien kissing his hand (1). 
  • Morwen and Túrin (1): “kisses” with no specification where (1). 
  • Nienor and Túrin (5): “kiss” with no specification where (5).  
  • Aldarion and Erendis (1): he kisses her “on the eyes”. 
  • Aldarion and his daughter (2): “kiss” with no specification where (1), he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Éowyn (2): Aragorn kisses her hand (1) and her forehead (1). 
  • Faramir and Éowyn (2): Faramir kisses her forehead (1), “kiss” not specified where but more salacious than hand/forehead (1). 
  • Merry and Éowyn (1): he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Arwen (1): he kisses her hand (1).

 

There are 22 kisses between male characters: 

  • Túrin and Beleg (3): Beleg kisses Túrin not specified where (1), Túrin kisses dead Beleg’s (open) mouth (2). 
  • Manthor and Húrin (1): Manthor kisses Húrin’s hand (1). 
  • Húrin and Túrin (1): Húrin kisses his son not specified where (1). 
  • Isildur and Ohtar (1): Isildur’s esquire kisses his hand (1). 
  • Isildur and Elendur (1): Isildur’s son kisses him not specified where (1). 
  • Aragorn and Boromir (1): Aragorn kisses Boromir’s forehead (1). 
  • Frodo and Sam (5): Sam kisses Frodo’s hand(s) (2), Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead (2), Frodo kisses Sam not specified where (1). 
  • Faramir kisses the Hobbits (2): Faramir kisses the foreheads of Frodo (1) and Sam (1). 
  • Merry kisses Théoden’s hand (2). 
  • Merry kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Aragorn kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Beregond kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Pippin not specified where (1).

 

(I am not aware of kisses between female characters. Given how little “screen time” Tolkien’s female characters share, that is not surprising.) 

Of the 44 kisses that happened, 13 are on the hand, 7 are on the forehead, 2 are on the eyelids, 1 is on hair, 2 are on the mouth, and 19 are not specified where.

Relationships and types of kisses 

There are 18 kisses involving a power imbalance, such as lord/vassal, master/servant, healer/patient or some other kind of respectful elder/younger or in-one’s-power relationship, usually on the forehead or hand: 

  • Manthor and Húrin (1): Manthor kisses Húrin’s hand (1). 
  • Isildur and Ohtar (1): Isildur’s esquire kisses his hand (1). 
  • Aragorn and Boromir (1): Aragorn kisses Boromir’s forehead (1). 
  • Frodo and Sam (5): Sam kisses Frodo’s hand(s) (2), Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead (2), Frodo kisses Sam not specified where (1). 
  • Merry kisses Théoden’s hand (2). 
  • Merry and Éowyn (1): he kisses her hand (1). 
  • Merry kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Aragorn kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Beregond kisses Aragorn’s hand (1). 
  • Faramir kisses the Hobbits (2): Faramir kisses the foreheads of Frodo (1) and Sam (1). (This one is a bit doubtful here, but I think that it fits best.) 
  • Aragorn and Éowyn (2): Aragorn kisses her hand (1) and her forehead (1). (Equally doubtful, but I believe that it fits.)

 

Roughly, it seems like the vassal (or similarly less powerful party) usually kisses the hand (which fits the historical practice of proskynesis), and the liege-lord (or similarly more powerful party) usually kisses the forehead. Frodo and Sam’s relationship begins as a distinct master-servant relationship that changes under extreme pressure into something more equal, so it makes sense that it’s mixed. The same applies to Aragorn and Éowyn: he kisses her on the hand as a woman and princess, and later on the forehead as a patient. In general, forehead kisses also often seem to involve the person being kissed being grievously injured, sick or dying (Aragorn → Boromir, Sam → Frodo, Aragorn → Éowyn), or a goodbye (Faramir → Frodo and Sam). 

There are five kisses between children and parents: 

  • Morwen and her young son Túrin (1): “kisses” with no specification where (1). 
  • Aldarion and his daughter (2): “kiss” with no specification where (1), he (years later) kisses her hand (1). 
  • Húrin and his young son Túrin (1): Húrin kisses his son not specified where (1). 
  • Isildur and his adult son Elendur (1): Isildur’s son kisses him not specified where (1).

 

(Parent-child relationships are also hierarchical, especially when the child is young, but it’s also a distinct category from the more feudal kind of category above.) 

There are two (goodbye) kisses between friends who had always been friends: 

  • Frodo kisses Merry not specified where (1). 
  • Frodo kisses Pippin not specified where (1).

 

(You could put Frodo and Sam here as well, but given that the relationship starts out as a master-servant kind of thing, I kept it in the previous category, even if it equalises a lot by the end. Still, even in the last chapter, Sam calls Frodo Mr. Frodo while Frodo calls him Sam without a title; Pippin, by comparison, calls him Frodo. Frodo and Sam clearly love each other deeply, but the master element remains present.) 

There are 16 kisses between lovers (couples who are or will get married): 

  • Beren and Lúthien (7): “kiss” with no specification where (4), Beren kissing her eyes (1), Beren kissing her hair (1), Lúthien kissing his hand (1). 
  • Nienor and Túrin (5): “kiss” with no specification where (5).  
  • Aldarion and Erendis (1): he kisses her “on the eyes”. 
  • Faramir and Éowyn (2): Faramir kisses her forehead (1), “kiss” not specified where but more salacious than hand/forehead (1). 
  • Aragorn and Arwen (1): he kisses her hand (1).

 

It’s interesting that even in this category, we have hand kisses just before someone (Aragorn, Beren) is dying, and plenty of chaste kisses. The one forehead kiss is when Éowyn’s spirits are still not fully healed. Kisses on the eyelids and hair are treated as specifically romantic. There is no explicit kiss on the mouth. 

Or rather, there is—there are

  • Túrin and Beleg (3): Beleg kisses Túrin not specified where (1), Túrin kisses dead Beleg’s (open) mouth (2).

 

And I find it very hard not to put them in the “Lovers” category.

In total: most “pairs” get only one kiss or at most two. The exceptions are Beren and Lúthien (7) (various), Frodo and Sam (5) (various), Nienor and Túrin (5) (all unspecified where), and Túrin and Beleg (3) (mouth or unspecified). Hand and forehead kisses often but not always denote a hierarchical relationship (of various flavours);  most of these hierarchical relationships are loving and respectful despite the hierarchy. 

Sources 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition September 2029, version 2019-09-02 [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition December 2018, version 2019-10-21 [cited as: HoME IV].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition December 2021, version 2021-12-21 [cited as: HoME XI].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition March 2009, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: UT].

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins 2005, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR]. 

The Children of Húrin, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: CoH]. 

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Just like how Túrin and Beleg are Achilles and Patroclus, Túrin and Nienor are Pyramus and Thisbe (= Romeo and Juliet)

Ovid’s Metamorphoses tell the tale of Pyramus and Thisbe, who were two young lovers from Babylon whose story heavily inspired Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet. Their families hate each other and they aren’t allowed to be together, so one night they make a secret appointment to meet outside the city. Unfortunately, Thisbe encounters a bloody lioness who had just eaten, and she flees, leaving behind her veil, which the lioness rips apart, leaving it bloody. Shortly afterwards, Pyramus comes across the lion tracks and the bloody veil, assumes that Thisbe is dead, and kills himself with his sword (which doesn’t speak). Inevitably, Thisbe shows up soon afterwards, finds him (actually) dying, and kills herself. 

This story later led to Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet, where Juliet takes a drug to appear dead, Romeo (uninformed) believes her to actually be dead and kills himself with poison because of it, and then Juliet wakes, sees Romeo dead and decides to kill herself too, this time with a dagger. 

In the published QS, a dying Glaurung tells Nienor that her (presently unconscious) husband Túrin is (1) her brother, and (2) dead. With Glaurung’s curse on her now lifted, Nienor remembers who she is. “Looking down upon Túrin she cried: ‘Farewell, O twice beloved! […] O happy to be dead!’ Then Brandir who had heard all, standing stricken upon the edge of ruin, hastened towards her; but she ran from him distraught with horror and anguish, and coming to the brink of Cabed-en-Aras she cast herself over, and was lost in the wild water.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) Túrin inevitably wakes up pretty much immediately after this, and Brandir tells him all that happened, including that Níniel was Nienor, Túrin’s sister. Túrin kills Brandir in a fit of rage because of course he does, but he eventually realises that Brandir was right. “And he laughed as one fey, crying: ‘This is a bitter jest indeed!’” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) And then, Túrin kills himself with his (rather loquacious) sword. 

And yes, of course, Túrin and Nienor’s story mostly comes from the Kalevala. But their end is just as Greek as Túrin and Beleg’s. And yes, I would argue that it is based directly on Pyramus and Thisbe, and not on Romeo and Juliet, because of the sword, the blood, and the intervention/fault of the monster (lion/dragon). 

I also find it interesting that this is yet another Greek myth that Tolkien took, put into his world, and gender-swapped. Lúthien pleading for Beren before Mandos is a gender-swapped Orpheus and Eurydice before Hades with a better ending: Tolkien himself calls the tale of Beren and Lúthien “a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability” (Letters, Letter 153, p. 193). It’s the same with Pyramus and Thisbe/Nienor and Túrin: Túrin, the man, appears dead, and Nienor, the woman, kills herself as a result of it, which is the opposite of what happens in the story of Pyramus and Thisbe (and Romeo and Juliet). 

I generally find it fascinating how many old tropes and stories Tolkien gender-swapped, like the damsel in distress trope from fairytales. Lúthien is a fairytale princess, she’s quite literally Rapunzel, but she doesn’t need Prince Charming’s help to free herself from her tower: she lets her hair grow long with magic, makes a rope out of it, and uses it to escape. She then finds Beren in distress and saves him

Sources

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, JRR Tolkien, ed Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2006 (softcover) [cited as: Letters].  

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Just like how Túrin and Beleg are Achilles and Patroclus, Túrin and Nienor are Pyramus and Thisbe (= Romeo and Juliet)

Ovid’s Metamorphoses tell the tale of Pyramus and Thisbe, who were two young lovers from Babylon whose story heavily inspired Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet. Their families hate each other and they aren’t allowed to be together, so one night they make a secret appointment to meet outside the city. Unfortunately, Thisbe encounters a bloody lioness who had just eaten, and she flees, leaving behind her veil, which the lioness rips apart, leaving it bloody. Shortly afterwards, Pyramus comes across the lion tracks and the bloody veil, assumes that Thisbe is dead, and kills himself with his sword (which doesn’t speak). Inevitably, Thisbe shows up soon afterwards, finds him (actually) dying, and kills herself. 

This story later led to Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet, where Juliet takes a drug to appear dead, Romeo (uninformed) believes her to actually be dead and kills himself with poison because of it, and then Juliet wakes, sees Romeo dead and decides to kill herself too, this time with a dagger. 

In the published QS, a dying Glaurung tells Nienor that her (presently unconscious) husband Túrin is (1) her brother, and (2) dead. With Glaurung’s curse on her now lifted, Nienor remembers who she is. “Looking down upon Túrin she cried: ‘Farewell, O twice beloved! […] O happy to be dead!’ Then Brandir who had heard all, standing stricken upon the edge of ruin, hastened towards her; but she ran from him distraught with horror and anguish, and coming to the brink of Cabed-en-Aras she cast herself over, and was lost in the wild water.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) Túrin inevitably wakes up pretty much immediately after this, and Brandir tells him all that happened, including that Níniel was Nienor, Túrin’s sister. Túrin kills Brandir in a fit of rage because of course he does, but he eventually realises that Brandir was right. “And he laughed as one fey, crying: ‘This is a bitter jest indeed!’” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) And then, Túrin kills himself with his (rather loquacious) sword. 

And yes, of course, Túrin and Nienor’s story mostly comes from the Kalevala. But their end is just as Greek as Túrin and Beleg’s. And yes, I would argue that it is based directly on Pyramus and Thisbe, and not on Romeo and Juliet, because of the sword, the blood, and the intervention/fault of the monster (lion/dragon). 

I also find it interesting that this is yet another Greek myth that Tolkien took, put into his world, and gender-swapped. Lúthien pleading for Beren before Mandos is a gender-swapped Orpheus and Eurydice before Hades with a better ending: Tolkien himself calls the tale of Beren and Lúthien “a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability” (Letters, Letter 153, p. 193). It’s the same with Pyramus and Thisbe/Nienor and Túrin: Túrin, the man, appears dead, and Nienor, the woman, kills herself as a result of it, which is the opposite of what happens in the story of Pyramus and Thisbe (and Romeo and Juliet). 

I generally find it fascinating how many old tropes and stories Tolkien gender-swapped, like the damsel in distress trope from fairytales. Lúthien is a fairytale princess, she’s quite literally Rapunzel, but she doesn’t need Prince Charming’s help to free herself from her tower: she lets her hair grow long with magic, makes a rope out of it, and uses it to escape. She then finds Beren in distress and saves him

Sources

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, JRR Tolkien, ed Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2006 (softcover) [cited as: Letters].  

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Of Finrod the faithful

Finrod Felagund is interesting. He’s often seen as this saintly wonderful creature of love and goodness, but he is in fact a Finwean even if his mother is from Alqualondë and his father tried very hard to pretend that he wasn’t related to his two quarrelsome brothers, and his character is greyer than often assumed. 

The point of this is not to argue that Finrod is a villain, or that his many good qualities don’t exist. Instead, I want to explore his more questionable, contradictory traits and choices. Because he is a Finwean, and he has flaws, just like everyone else in this disaster of an extended family. 

Treasure and the Helcaraxë 

In a 1959 note, Tolkien wrote that, “Finrod had brought more treasure out of Túna than any of the other princes.” (HoME XII, p. 352) 

And that is fascinating, because that means that Finrod (or his servants) dragged more gold and jewels along than Fëanor and his sons by ship (granted, they had just been robbed, but this is still Fëanor), Fingon with his gold, Aredhel with her silver, and any other princes. 

This, by the way, is also implied in an earlier text, the Annals of Aman: “Therefore they continued their march; and the House of Fëanor hastened before them along the coasts of Elendë: and not once did they turn their eyes backward to Tirion upon Túna. Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of these Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went Finrod and Inglor, and many of the fairest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss that they had forsaken, and some even of the fair things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.” (HoME X, p. 110) 

I’m finding it rather surprising that Tolkien associated carrying lots of jewels along with the wisest Elves, in particular with Finrod Felagund, as some kind of virtue, but even here it’s clearly said that fair things are a burden on the road, because someone has to carry them, and carrying lots of jewels has the downside of being able to carry less food/weaponry/clothing/other useful stuff. 

The Petty Dwarves 

[Note: the Noldor never hunted the Petty Dwarves like animals, not knowing that they were sentient beings: that was the Sindar long before the Noldor returned to Beleriand.]

There are three interesting passages about Finrod’s interactions with the Petty Dwarves in general and Mîm in particular. 

The Narn outline tells us, “Mîm gets a certain curious liking for Túrin, increased when he learns that Túrin has had trouble with Elves, whom he detests. He says Elves have caused the end of his race, and taken all their mansions, especially Nargothrond (Nulukhizidûn).” (HoME XI, p. 180) That is, Mîm is convinced that Finrod stole Nargothrond from his people. 

And that actually seems to be true. In 1959, Tolkien wrote: “The name Felagund was of Dwarvish origin. Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (Nibinnogs), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting themhence Mîm’s special hatred for the Elvesespecially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Túna than any of the other princes.” (HoME XII, p. 352) The clear implication here is that Finrod paid the (Great) Dwarves to expel the Petty Dwarves from what would later become Nargothrond. 

There is another late note about Nargothrond from 1969 that touches on this: “But they were made or at least long occupied by Dwarves, of the strange and sinister kind known as the Petty Dwarves: in origin, as was later known, descended from Dwarves banished for evil deeds from the great mansions of their kind. […] It is told that when [Finrod] came upon the Narog rushing down its steep course under the hills’ shadow, he resolved to make there a secret fortress and store-houses against evil days, if he could; but the river could not be crossed at that place, and in the far banks he saw the opening of many caves. The tale of his dealings with the Petty Dwarves who still lingered there, remnant of a once more numerous folk, is told elsewhere. But during the years of peace that still remained Finrod carried out his design, and established the great mansions that were later called Nargothrond (< Narog + ost-rond), the cavernous halls beside the Narog. In this labour he had at first help from the Petty Dwarves and their feigned friendship; for which he rewarded them generously until Mîm their chieftain made an attempt to murder him in his sleep and was driven out into the wild.” (NoME, p. 304–305) 

Unfortunately, the tale told elsewhere can only be the passages cited above, and at least the 1959 note directly contradict the idea that the Petty Dwarves were at fault. In fact, the 1959 note makes it clear that Finrod had the Petty Dwarves expelled with the help of the (Great) Dwarves. The implication is certainly not that Finrod expelled them because they tried to murder him in his sleep. It’s all rather confusing. (The 1969 text is weird and contradicts decades-long established plot and character points, by the way. In particular, NoME, p. 304, names Curufin and Caranthir as the sons of Fëanor who fled to Nargothrond, not Celegorm, which is certainly not what Tolkien intended.

Irrespective of whether we should discount the whole contents of the 1969 note because Tolkien forgot about Celegorm, one of the most important characters in the Lay of Leithian since the 1920s, there certainly was at least a time when Tolkien decided that Finrod Felagund paid someone else to conduct a campaign of ethnic cleansing for him. 

His own personal foreign policy 

But what I find most notable about Finrod the faithful is how he acts in Beleriand where his family is concerned. Early on in Beleriand, in F.A. 7, Caranthir shouts, “Yea more! Let not the sons of [Finarfin] run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark-elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father was a lord of the Noldor, though their mother was of other kin.” (HoME XI, p. 33)

And that’s framed as harsh and gratuitously aggressive by the in-universe narrator (Pengolodh, who hates the sons of Fëanor and is a subject of Finrod’s best friend Turgon), but Caranthir is right: Finrod has some seriously split loyalties. 

Let’s do a timeline.  

  • In Valinor, Finrod’s decision to go to Beleriand is materially influenced by his kinship with Thingol: “[Finarfin] wedded Eärwen, the daughter of King Olwë, and his children were thus the kin of King Elwë […] (in Sindarin Elu Thingol) of Doriath in Beleriand, for he was the brother of Olwë; and this kinship influenced their decision to join in the Exile, and proved of great importance later in Beleriand.” (HoME XII, p. 337, fn omitted) (In the earlier Annals of Aman, the only reason we got for why Finrod Felagund kept going after Alqualondë is that the sons of Finarfin “would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin”, HoME X, p. 118.) 
  • For this, according to one late-ish note from 1965, “Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile.” (HoME XII, p. 350) He’s not the only Noldo to leave behind his wife by any means, but this is golden Finrod the faithful, not one of his short-fused (half-)uncles. (Meanwhile, his brother Angrod’s wife joins the exodus.) 
  • The moment the Noldor under Fingolfin get to Beleriand, Finrod begins running his personal foreign policy in F.A. 6: “Beyond the Girdle of Melian those of [Finarfin’s] house were suffered to pass, for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself (their mother Earwen being his brother’s daughter). Now Angrod was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of Inglor [= Finrod Felagund], and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and their numbers, and the ordering of their force; but being true and wisehearted and deeming all griefs now forgiven, he spoke naught of the deeds of Fëanor save his valiant death.” (HoME XI, p. 32) That’s what causes Caranthir’s angry outburst at the sons of Finarfin, and I understand why (just as I understand why Maedhros immediately shuts Caranthir up). 
  • In F.A. 50, Finrod and Turgon, who were holidaying together at the time, were visited by Ulmo in their dreams. Notably, Finrod did not tell Turgon, his best friend, what he had dreamed: “But on a time Turgon left Nivrost where he dwelt and went to visit Inglor his friend, and they journeyed southward along Sirion, being weary for a while of the northern mountains; and as they journeyed night came upon them beyond the Meres of Twilight beside the waters of Sirion, and they slept upon his banks beneath the summer stars. But Ulmo coming up the river laid a profound sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each deemed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone. But unquiet was upon them ever after and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone in unexplored country, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for it seemed to each that he was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.” (HoME V, p. 253) That is, the whole thing is so secret that Finrod can’t tell his best friend, cousin and son of the High King of the Noldor whom he (presumably) swore fealty to. But you know whom Finrod can tell all about it? Thingol, of course, in F.A. 52: “In this year Inglor and his sister Galadriel were long the guests of Thingol their kinsman. And Inglor was filled with wonder at the beauty and strength of Menegroth, and he desired greatly to make for himself a strong place in like manner. Therefore he opened his heart to Thingol, telling him of his dreams; and Thingol spoke to him of the caves under the High Faroth on the west-bank of Narog, and when he departed gave him guides to lead him to that place of which few yet knew. Thus Inglor came to the Caverns of Narog and began there to establish deep halls and armouries, after the manner of Menegroth; and that stronghold was called Nargothrond.” (HoME XI, p. 35) This is very similar in the Later QS, where we are equally told that “he opened his heart to Thingol”, plus the additional piece of information that “Galadriel his sister dwelt never in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.” (HoME XI, p. 178) The fact that Finrod tells Thingol secrets that he would not tell Turgon shows how divided his loyalties are. 
  • The children of Finarfin also just seem to spend a lot of time with Thingol in general. Not just the time when Finrod decided to tell Thingol all about his secret prophetic dream (“And it came to pass that Inglor and Galadriel were on a time the guests of Thingol and Melian; for there was friendship between the lord of Doriath and the House of Finrod that were his kin, and the princes of that house alone were suffered to pass the girdle of Melian.” HoME XI, p. 178), but also later, even once Finrod had begun construction of Nargothrond: “And it chanced that at that time the sons of [Finarfin] were again the guests of Thingol, for they wished to see their sister Galadriel.” (HoME XI, p. 42) Angrod then tells Thingol all about Alqualondë, while Finrod keeps his silence. 
  • Even once Finrod has completed Nargothrond in the south of Beleriand while his brothers are manning the siege in Dorthonion and Tol Sirion (cf HoME XI, p. 38–39), he is often absent: “Thus the sons of Fëanor under the leadership of Maidros were lords of East Beleriand, but their folk was in that time mostly in the north of the land; and southward they rode only to hunt, and to seek solitude for a while. And thither for like purpose the other Elflords would sometimes come, for the land was wild but very fair; and of these Inglor came most often, for he had great love of wandering, and he came even into Ossiriand and won friendship of the Green-elves.” (HoME V, p. 265) That is, Finrod, king of Nargothrond in the South-West, is regularly crossing the entirety of Beleriand to hunt in the lands of the sons of Fëanor in the East (and making friends with even more people, of course). An example of this is when he hunts there with Maedhros and Maglor and discovers Men in the process. 
  • Finrod keeps engaging in his own foreign policy even though Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, is supposed to be in charge. Upon the discovery of Men, Finrod is the only one to involve Thingol (who has been hiding behind his wife’s Girdle for four centuries now): “It is said that in these matters none save Inglor took counsel with King Thingol. And he was ill pleased, for that reason and because he was troubled with dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did. And he said: ‘Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Inglor the beloved.’” (HoME XI, p. 49–50) Finrod also asks Thingol for the favour to let Haleth live in Brethil, which Thingol grants (cf HoME XI, p. 223). 
  • In the Dagor Bragollach, Finrod’s younger brothers and vassals bear a good chunk of the brunt of the assault, and I would characterise Finrod’s attempt to aid his vassals in Dorthonion as half-hearted: 
    • “In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Angrod and Egnor, sons of [Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas was slain and a great part of the warriors of Bëor’s folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King Inglor Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated and was surrounded with small company in the Fen of Serech. But Barahir came thither with the doughtiest of his men, and broke the leaguer of the Orcs and saved the Elven-king. Then Inglor gave to Barahir his ring, an heirloom of his house, in token of the oath that he swore unto Barahir to render whatsoever service was asked in hour of need to him or to any of his kin. Then Inglor went south to Nargothrond, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor. Fingolfin and Fingon had marched indeed from Hithlum to the aid of the sons of [Finarfin], but they were driven back to the mountains with grievous loss.” (HoME XI, p. 52)
    • The sons of [Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assault, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father’s death, was slain beside them. In that battle King Inglor Felagund was cut off from his folk and surrounded by the Orcs, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of Bëor came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day; but he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring. Barahir was now by right lord of the remnant of the folk of Bëor; but most of these fled now from Dorthonion and took refuge among the people of Hador in the fastness of Hithlum. But Barahir would not flee, and remained contesting the land foot by foot with the servants of Morgoth.” (HoME V, p. 281) 
    • That is, it sounds like Morgoth’s forces are heavily engaging Fingolfin and Fingon and preventing them from getting anywhere near Dorthonion, but Barahir can keep fighting in Dorthonion, so why can’t Finrod, who is with Barahir, join him to save his vassals who are currently being burned alive by Glaurung, as opposed to hurrying back home in the south while the war rages on in the north? (It’s quite the contrast that Barahir did not ask Finrod to redeem his vow in an attempt to save his people from Morgoth, while Barahir’s son Beren used Finrod’s vow to get help for a suicide mission with the aim of getting married.)

     

  • Soon after, it’s not Finrod who saves his brother/nephew (= vassal) Orodreth when Sauron takes Tol Sirion, but rather Celegorm and Curufin, who happen to be there and save Orodreth and the survivors of Minas Tirith (HoME XI, p. 54).
  • What is the rest of the family currently doing? 
    • Maidros the chief of Fëanor’s sons did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returneth from the dead, keen and terrible; and they fled before him. Thus his citadel upon the hill of Himring could not at that time be taken, and many of the most valiant that remained, both of the folk of Dorthonion and of the east marches rallied there to Maidros; and for a while he closed once more the pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road.”  (HoME V, p. 283) 
    • “There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. And the Orcs growing ever bolder wandered at will far and wide, coming down Sirion in the West and Celon in the East, and they encompassed Doriath; and they harried the lands, so that beast and bird fled before them, and silence and desolation spread steadily from the North. Great numbers of the Gnomes, and of the Dark-elves, they took captive and led to Angband, and made thralls, forcing them to use their skill and knowledge in the service of Morgoth. They laboured without rest in his mines and forges, and torment was their wage.” (HoME V, p. 285–286)
    • Siege of Eithel Sirion and Fall of Gumlin. Nor did the assault upon the northern strongholds cease. Himring Morgoth besieged so close that no help might come from Maidros, and he threw suddenly a great force against Hithlum. The Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim; but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them far across the sands of Fauglith.” (HoME V, p. 289) Concerning the same battle, the Grey Annals say, “But King Fingon with most of the Noldor was hard put to it to hold back the army of Angband that came down from the north. Battle was joined upon the very plains of Hithlum, and Fingon was outnumbered; but timely help came from Cirdan. His ships in great strength sailed into Drengist and there landed a force that came up in the hour of need upon the west flank of the enemy. Then the Eldar had the victory and the Orcs broke and fled, pursued by the horsed archers even to the Iron Mountains.” (HoME XI, p. 60) Why is help coming from Círdan, a Sinda, and not from Fingon’s cousin and vassal Finrod? 
    • That is, just after or maybe even during the Dagor Bragollach, Maedhros begins retaking lost territory (with the help of the remnants of the people of Dorthonion, technically vassals of Finrod). Morgoth also besieges Maedhros and tries to conquer Hithlum. Fingon, with the help of Círdan, manages to repel the assault. Also, armies of Orcs are swarming downwards, encircling Doriath and taking lots of Elves captive, and Finrod is nowhere to be found.

 

So what is Finrod doing post-Bragollach? 

Well, Finrod seems to be engaging in some good old passive-aggressive name-politics (he really is a Finwean!) that feels pointedly directed at his grieving cousin Fingon. “Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 344), and now that Fingolfin is dead and Fingon is High King, Finrod pulls the same number on Fingon by changing his own father’s name in the same manner: “The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.” (HoME XII, p. 344) 

Finrod is also back to being way too involved with anything but the Noldor and their united war: 

  • “Beren was brought before King Thingol, who scorned him, and desiring to send him to death, said to him in mockery that he must bring a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth as the bride-price of Lúthien. But Beren took the quest upon himself and departed, and came to Nargothrond and sought the aid of King Felagund. Then Felagund perceived that his oath had returned to bring him to death, but he was willing to lend to Beren all the aid of his kingdom, vain though it must prove.” (HoME XI, p. 62) 
  • “Now Beren went west to Nargothrond, and sought out King Felagund. And when Felagund heard of the quest he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death (as long before he had said to Galadriel). But he kept his oath, and would have mustered all his host for the service of Beren, vain though all his strength must be in such a venture.” (HoME XI, p. 65)

Taking his entire army on a suicide quest in favour of a guy who really wants to get married feels blatantly incompatible with Finrod’s supposed loyalty to he High King of the Noldor—both swearing the oath to Barahir in the first place and then genuinely trying to convince his entire army to join him on his suicide mission.

And you could argue that he swore an (entirely open-ended) oath and therefore had to help Beren. 

In which case you should also argue that the Sons of Fëanor swore an oath and therefore had to commit all the Kinslayings. 

But most people here don’t believe that swearing a magically binding and compulsive oath absolves you of responsibility for what you do in pursuance of fulfilling that oath. Everyone believes that Maedhros is the most moral of the Sons of Fëanor among other things because he forswears his oath and delays the attack on the Havens for fifteen years. 

But Finrod is willing to sacrifice his entire kingdom at once for the sake of Beren’s marriage prospects. And I don’t think that that’s very moral. Finrod has other responsibilities. He’s presumably sworn featly to the High King of the Noldor at some point, and moreover, loyalty between kings and rulers went both ways. The Noldor clearly have a kind of social contract à la “you keep us safe and prosperous and we will obey you”. They do not follow strict primogeniture just because; in particular, a lot of people followed Fingolfin while Fëanor was still alive (Fëanor was patently unsuitable), and the people of Nargothrond made it very clear to Finrod that they were dissatisfied with his plan to get them all killed. 

Further thoughts 

I maintain that Caranthir was right. Finrod is everyone’s friend, but he is half-in, half-out where the Noldor are concerned. He tells Thingol secrets, runs his own foreign policy, and eventually appears to abandon the High King of the Noldor. In a way, he acts like Maedhros, self-assured and independent, with the significant differences that he is not manning the most dangerous section of the Siege of Angband, that he is not on the other side of the continent, and that after Fingolfin’s death, he does not remain loyal to Fingon. Finrod is also not the one who should have been king (Nelyafinwë!) if Fëanor had not screwed up so royally. And his epithet is the faithful

There are a few structural reasons why Finrod is like this. 

For one, Finrod isn’t really part of the same story as the rest of the princes of the Noldor. Like Lúthien, Turgon and Aredhel, he’s more of a Great Tales character than a War of the Jewels character. The principal characters of the Great Tales are less present in the War of the Jewels narrative. Finrod is more connected to the war than, say, Turgon, who basically disappears for most of the story until the narrative of the Fall of Gondolin (a Great Tale) ramps up. But he’s still firmly a Great Tales character first, and a prince of the Noldor and vassal of the High King in the war against Morgoth second. 

More specifically, in his Great Tale, the fairytale of Beren and Lúthien, Finrod functionally plays the role of Beren’s fairy godmother, a powerful magical mentor and guardian to the fairytale’s human protagonist. (Huan plays the same role for Lúthien, the magical—possibly shapeshifting—talking animal who supports the fairytale’s protagonist, think Puss in Boots.) And Finrod’s main narrative purpose is to help Beren, so that comes first. Interestingly, at this point Finrod’s kinship with Thingol basically disappears from the narrative (likely because it didn’t yet exist when Tolkien wrote the Lay of Leithian; Eärwen, daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë, only appeared after LOTR was finished). Why does Finrod, ever the friend of Thingol, not try to intervene diplomatically in Beren’s favour? Because Finrod’s role in the Great Tale is fixed. 

I wonder if Tolkien would have gotten around to changing this. More generally, I wonder if he would have changed the story of Beren and Lúthien in his later years. It’s a very whimsical, fairytale-like story with characters who seem stuck how they were decades prior in the post-Sketch years, while the world and relationships had changed around them. 

Much like how Tolkien had tried to rewrite the Hobbit post-LOTR to make it less whimsical and fairytale-like (he gave up on that attempt), and much how elements of his characterisation had returned to something much closer to the Sketch (in particular Maedhros and Maglor), I wonder if Beren and Lúthien would have been changed in some way, in particular as regards Thingol’s relationship with Finrod that had appeared in the intervening decades, and the role of Celegorm (who had begun as founder of Nargothrond and Beren’s friend and helper, and had progressively gotten worse over the decades) and Curufin (whom Tolkien wanted to give some kind of redemption late in life). 

Sources 

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

Of Finrod the faithful

Finrod Felagund is interesting. He’s often seen as this saintly wonderful creature of love and goodness, but he is in fact a Finwean even if his mother is from Alqualondë and his father tried very hard to pretend that he wasn’t related to his two quarrelsome brothers, and his character is greyer than often assumed. 

The point of this is not to argue that Finrod is a villain, or that his many good qualities don’t exist. Instead, I want to explore his more questionable, contradictory traits and choices. Because he is a Finwean, and he has flaws, just like everyone else in this disaster of an extended family. 

Treasure and the Helcaraxë 

In a 1959 note, Tolkien wrote that, “Finrod had brought more treasure out of Túna than any of the other princes.” (HoME XII, p. 352) 

And that is fascinating, because that means that Finrod (or his servants) dragged more gold and jewels along than Fëanor and his sons by ship (granted, they had just been robbed, but this is still Fëanor), Fingon with his gold, Aredhel with her silver, and any other princes. 

This, by the way, is also implied in an earlier text, the Annals of Aman: “Therefore they continued their march; and the House of Fëanor hastened before them along the coasts of Elendë: and not once did they turn their eyes backward to Tirion upon Túna. Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of these Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went Finrod and Inglor, and many of the fairest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss that they had forsaken, and some even of the fair things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.” (HoME X, p. 110) 

I’m finding it rather surprising that Tolkien associated carrying lots of jewels along with the wisest Elves, in particular with Finrod Felagund, as some kind of virtue, but even here it’s clearly said that fair things are a burden on the road, because someone has to carry them, and carrying lots of jewels has the downside of being able to carry less food/weaponry/clothing/other useful stuff. 

The Petty Dwarves 

[Note: the Noldor never hunted the Petty Dwarves like animals, not knowing that they were sentient beings: that was the Sindar long before the Noldor returned to Beleriand.]

There are three interesting passages about Finrod’s interactions with the Petty Dwarves in general and Mîm in particular. 

The Narn outline tells us, “Mîm gets a certain curious liking for Túrin, increased when he learns that Túrin has had trouble with Elves, whom he detests. He says Elves have caused the end of his race, and taken all their mansions, especially Nargothrond (Nulukhizidûn).” (HoME XI, p. 180) That is, Mîm is convinced that Finrod stole Nargothrond from his people. 

And that actually seems to be true. In 1959, Tolkien wrote: “The name Felagund was of Dwarvish origin. Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (Nibinnogs), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting themhence Mîm’s special hatred for the Elvesespecially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Túna than any of the other princes.” (HoME XII, p. 352) The clear implication here is that Finrod paid the (Great) Dwarves to expel the Petty Dwarves from what would later become Nargothrond. 

There is another late note about Nargothrond from 1969 that touches on this: “But they were made or at least long occupied by Dwarves, of the strange and sinister kind known as the Petty Dwarves: in origin, as was later known, descended from Dwarves banished for evil deeds from the great mansions of their kind. […] It is told that when [Finrod] came upon the Narog rushing down its steep course under the hills’ shadow, he resolved to make there a secret fortress and store-houses against evil days, if he could; but the river could not be crossed at that place, and in the far banks he saw the opening of many caves. The tale of his dealings with the Petty Dwarves who still lingered there, remnant of a once more numerous folk, is told elsewhere. But during the years of peace that still remained Finrod carried out his design, and established the great mansions that were later called Nargothrond (< Narog + ost-rond), the cavernous halls beside the Narog. In this labour he had at first help from the Petty Dwarves and their feigned friendship; for which he rewarded them generously until Mîm their chieftain made an attempt to murder him in his sleep and was driven out into the wild.” (NoME, p. 304–305) 

Unfortunately, the tale told elsewhere can only be the passages cited above, and at least the 1959 note directly contradict the idea that the Petty Dwarves were at fault. In fact, the 1959 note makes it clear that Finrod had the Petty Dwarves expelled with the help of the (Great) Dwarves. The implication is certainly not that Finrod expelled them because they tried to murder him in his sleep. It’s all rather confusing. (The 1969 text is weird and contradicts decades-long established plot and character points, by the way. In particular, NoME, p. 304, names Curufin and Caranthir as the sons of Fëanor who fled to Nargothrond, not Celegorm, which is certainly not what Tolkien intended.

Irrespective of whether we should discount the whole contents of the 1969 note because Tolkien forgot about Celegorm, one of the most important characters in the Lay of Leithian since the 1920s, there certainly was at least a time when Tolkien decided that Finrod Felagund paid someone else to conduct a campaign of ethnic cleansing for him. 

His own personal foreign policy 

But what I find most notable about Finrod the faithful is how he acts in Beleriand where his family is concerned. Early on in Beleriand, in F.A. 7, Caranthir shouts, “Yea more! Let not the sons of [Finarfin] run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark-elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father was a lord of the Noldor, though their mother was of other kin.” (HoME XI, p. 33)

And that’s framed as harsh and gratuitously aggressive by the in-universe narrator (Pengolodh, who hates the sons of Fëanor and is a subject of Finrod’s best friend Turgon), but Caranthir is right: Finrod has some seriously split loyalties. 

Let’s do a timeline.  

  • In Valinor, Finrod’s decision to go to Beleriand is materially influenced by his kinship with Thingol: “[Finarfin] wedded Eärwen, the daughter of King Olwë, and his children were thus the kin of King Elwë […] (in Sindarin Elu Thingol) of Doriath in Beleriand, for he was the brother of Olwë; and this kinship influenced their decision to join in the Exile, and proved of great importance later in Beleriand.” (HoME XII, p. 337, fn omitted) (In the earlier Annals of Aman, the only reason we got for why Finrod Felagund kept going after Alqualondë is that the sons of Finarfin “would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin”, HoME X, p. 118.) 
  • For this, according to one late-ish note from 1965, “Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile.” (HoME XII, p. 350) He’s not the only Noldo to leave behind his wife by any means, but this is golden Finrod the faithful, not one of his short-fused (half-)uncles. (Meanwhile, his brother Angrod’s wife joins the exodus.) 
  • The moment the Noldor under Fingolfin get to Beleriand, Finrod begins running his personal foreign policy in F.A. 6: “Beyond the Girdle of Melian those of [Finarfin’s] house were suffered to pass, for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself (their mother Earwen being his brother’s daughter). Now Angrod was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of Inglor [= Finrod Felagund], and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and their numbers, and the ordering of their force; but being true and wisehearted and deeming all griefs now forgiven, he spoke naught of the deeds of Fëanor save his valiant death.” (HoME XI, p. 32) That’s what causes Caranthir’s angry outburst at the sons of Finarfin, and I understand why (just as I understand why Maedhros immediately shuts Caranthir up). 
  • In F.A. 50, Finrod and Turgon, who were holidaying together at the time, were visited by Ulmo in their dreams. Notably, Finrod did not tell Turgon, his best friend, what he had dreamed: “But on a time Turgon left Nivrost where he dwelt and went to visit Inglor his friend, and they journeyed southward along Sirion, being weary for a while of the northern mountains; and as they journeyed night came upon them beyond the Meres of Twilight beside the waters of Sirion, and they slept upon his banks beneath the summer stars. But Ulmo coming up the river laid a profound sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each deemed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone. But unquiet was upon them ever after and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone in unexplored country, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for it seemed to each that he was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.” (HoME V, p. 253) That is, the whole thing is so secret that Finrod can’t tell his best friend, cousin and son of the High King of the Noldor whom he (presumably) swore fealty to. But you know whom Finrod can tell all about it? Thingol, of course, in F.A. 52: “In this year Inglor and his sister Galadriel were long the guests of Thingol their kinsman. And Inglor was filled with wonder at the beauty and strength of Menegroth, and he desired greatly to make for himself a strong place in like manner. Therefore he opened his heart to Thingol, telling him of his dreams; and Thingol spoke to him of the caves under the High Faroth on the west-bank of Narog, and when he departed gave him guides to lead him to that place of which few yet knew. Thus Inglor came to the Caverns of Narog and began there to establish deep halls and armouries, after the manner of Menegroth; and that stronghold was called Nargothrond.” (HoME XI, p. 35) This is very similar in the Later QS, where we are equally told that “he opened his heart to Thingol”, plus the additional piece of information that “Galadriel his sister dwelt never in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.” (HoME XI, p. 178) The fact that Finrod tells Thingol secrets that he would not tell Turgon shows how divided his loyalties are. 
  • The children of Finarfin also just seem to spend a lot of time with Thingol in general. Not just the time when Finrod decided to tell Thingol all about his secret prophetic dream (“And it came to pass that Inglor and Galadriel were on a time the guests of Thingol and Melian; for there was friendship between the lord of Doriath and the House of Finrod that were his kin, and the princes of that house alone were suffered to pass the girdle of Melian.” HoME XI, p. 178), but also later, even once Finrod had begun construction of Nargothrond: “And it chanced that at that time the sons of [Finarfin] were again the guests of Thingol, for they wished to see their sister Galadriel.” (HoME XI, p. 42) Angrod then tells Thingol all about Alqualondë, while Finrod keeps his silence. 
  • Even once Finrod has completed Nargothrond in the south of Beleriand while his brothers are manning the siege in Dorthonion and Tol Sirion (cf HoME XI, p. 38–39), he is often absent: “Thus the sons of Fëanor under the leadership of Maidros were lords of East Beleriand, but their folk was in that time mostly in the north of the land; and southward they rode only to hunt, and to seek solitude for a while. And thither for like purpose the other Elflords would sometimes come, for the land was wild but very fair; and of these Inglor came most often, for he had great love of wandering, and he came even into Ossiriand and won friendship of the Green-elves.” (HoME V, p. 265) That is, Finrod, king of Nargothrond in the South-West, is regularly crossing the entirety of Beleriand to hunt in the lands of the sons of Fëanor in the East (and making friends with even more people, of course). An example of this is when he hunts there with Maedhros and Maglor and discovers Men in the process. 
  • Finrod keeps engaging in his own foreign policy even though Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, is supposed to be in charge. Upon the discovery of Men, Finrod is the only one to involve Thingol (who has been hiding behind his wife’s Girdle for four centuries now): “It is said that in these matters none save Inglor took counsel with King Thingol. And he was ill pleased, for that reason and because he was troubled with dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did. And he said: ‘Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Inglor the beloved.’” (HoME XI, p. 49–50) Finrod also asks Thingol for the favour to let Haleth live in Brethil, which Thingol grants (cf HoME XI, p. 223). 
  • In the Dagor Bragollach, Finrod’s younger brothers and vassals bear a good chunk of the brunt of the assault, and I would characterise Finrod’s attempt to aid his vassals in Dorthonion as half-hearted: 
    • “In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Angrod and Egnor, sons of [Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas was slain and a great part of the warriors of Bëor’s folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King Inglor Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated and was surrounded with small company in the Fen of Serech. But Barahir came thither with the doughtiest of his men, and broke the leaguer of the Orcs and saved the Elven-king. Then Inglor gave to Barahir his ring, an heirloom of his house, in token of the oath that he swore unto Barahir to render whatsoever service was asked in hour of need to him or to any of his kin. Then Inglor went south to Nargothrond, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor. Fingolfin and Fingon had marched indeed from Hithlum to the aid of the sons of [Finarfin], but they were driven back to the mountains with grievous loss.” (HoME XI, p. 52)
    • The sons of [Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assault, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father’s death, was slain beside them. In that battle King Inglor Felagund was cut off from his folk and surrounded by the Orcs, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of Bëor came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day; but he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring. Barahir was now by right lord of the remnant of the folk of Bëor; but most of these fled now from Dorthonion and took refuge among the people of Hador in the fastness of Hithlum. But Barahir would not flee, and remained contesting the land foot by foot with the servants of Morgoth.” (HoME V, p. 281) 
    • That is, it sounds like Morgoth’s forces are heavily engaging Fingolfin and Fingon and preventing them from getting anywhere near Dorthonion, but Barahir can keep fighting in Dorthonion, so why can’t Finrod, who is with Barahir, join him to save his vassals who are currently being burned alive by Glaurung, as opposed to hurrying back home in the south while the war rages on in the north? (It’s quite the contrast that Barahir did not ask Finrod to redeem his vow in an attempt to save his people from Morgoth, while Barahir’s son Beren used Finrod’s vow to get help for a suicide mission with the aim of getting married.)

     

  • Soon after, it’s not Finrod who saves his brother/nephew (= vassal) Orodreth when Sauron takes Tol Sirion, but rather Celegorm and Curufin, who happen to be there and save Orodreth and the survivors of Minas Tirith (HoME XI, p. 54).
  • What is the rest of the family currently doing? 
    • Maidros the chief of Fëanor’s sons did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returneth from the dead, keen and terrible; and they fled before him. Thus his citadel upon the hill of Himring could not at that time be taken, and many of the most valiant that remained, both of the folk of Dorthonion and of the east marches rallied there to Maidros; and for a while he closed once more the pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road.”  (HoME V, p. 283) 
    • “There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. And the Orcs growing ever bolder wandered at will far and wide, coming down Sirion in the West and Celon in the East, and they encompassed Doriath; and they harried the lands, so that beast and bird fled before them, and silence and desolation spread steadily from the North. Great numbers of the Gnomes, and of the Dark-elves, they took captive and led to Angband, and made thralls, forcing them to use their skill and knowledge in the service of Morgoth. They laboured without rest in his mines and forges, and torment was their wage.” (HoME V, p. 285–286)
    • Siege of Eithel Sirion and Fall of Gumlin. Nor did the assault upon the northern strongholds cease. Himring Morgoth besieged so close that no help might come from Maidros, and he threw suddenly a great force against Hithlum. The Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim; but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them far across the sands of Fauglith.” (HoME V, p. 289) Concerning the same battle, the Grey Annals say, “But King Fingon with most of the Noldor was hard put to it to hold back the army of Angband that came down from the north. Battle was joined upon the very plains of Hithlum, and Fingon was outnumbered; but timely help came from Cirdan. His ships in great strength sailed into Drengist and there landed a force that came up in the hour of need upon the west flank of the enemy. Then the Eldar had the victory and the Orcs broke and fled, pursued by the horsed archers even to the Iron Mountains.” (HoME XI, p. 60) Why is help coming from Círdan, a Sinda, and not from Fingon’s cousin and vassal Finrod? 
    • That is, just after or maybe even during the Dagor Bragollach, Maedhros begins retaking lost territory (with the help of the remnants of the people of Dorthonion, technically vassals of Finrod). Morgoth also besieges Maedhros and tries to conquer Hithlum. Fingon, with the help of Círdan, manages to repel the assault. Also, armies of Orcs are swarming downwards, encircling Doriath and taking lots of Elves captive, and Finrod is nowhere to be found.

 

So what is Finrod doing post-Bragollach? 

Well, Finrod seems to be engaging in some good old passive-aggressive name-politics (he really is a Finwean!) that feels pointedly directed at his grieving cousin Fingon. “Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 344), and now that Fingolfin is dead and Fingon is High King, Finrod pulls the same number on Fingon by changing his own father’s name in the same manner: “The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.” (HoME XII, p. 344) 

Finrod is also back to being way too involved with anything but the Noldor and their united war: 

  • “Beren was brought before King Thingol, who scorned him, and desiring to send him to death, said to him in mockery that he must bring a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth as the bride-price of Lúthien. But Beren took the quest upon himself and departed, and came to Nargothrond and sought the aid of King Felagund. Then Felagund perceived that his oath had returned to bring him to death, but he was willing to lend to Beren all the aid of his kingdom, vain though it must prove.” (HoME XI, p. 62) 
  • “Now Beren went west to Nargothrond, and sought out King Felagund. And when Felagund heard of the quest he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death (as long before he had said to Galadriel). But he kept his oath, and would have mustered all his host for the service of Beren, vain though all his strength must be in such a venture.” (HoME XI, p. 65)

Taking his entire army on a suicide quest in favour of a guy who really wants to get married feels blatantly incompatible with Finrod’s supposed loyalty to he High King of the Noldor—both swearing the oath to Barahir in the first place and then genuinely trying to convince his entire army to join him on his suicide mission.

And you could argue that he swore an (entirely open-ended) oath and therefore had to help Beren. 

In which case you should also argue that the Sons of Fëanor swore an oath and therefore had to commit all the Kinslayings. 

But most people here don’t believe that swearing a magically binding and compulsive oath absolves you of responsibility for what you do in pursuance of fulfilling that oath. Everyone believes that Maedhros is the most moral of the Sons of Fëanor among other things because he forswears his oath and delays the attack on the Havens for fifteen years. 

But Finrod is willing to sacrifice his entire kingdom at once for the sake of Beren’s marriage prospects. And I don’t think that that’s very moral. Finrod has other responsibilities. He’s presumably sworn featly to the High King of the Noldor at some point, and moreover, loyalty between kings and rulers went both ways. The Noldor clearly have a kind of social contract à la “you keep us safe and prosperous and we will obey you”. They do not follow strict primogeniture just because; in particular, a lot of people followed Fingolfin while Fëanor was still alive (Fëanor was patently unsuitable), and the people of Nargothrond made it very clear to Finrod that they were dissatisfied with his plan to get them all killed. 

Further thoughts 

I maintain that Caranthir was right. Finrod is everyone’s friend, but he is half-in, half-out where the Noldor are concerned. He tells Thingol secrets, runs his own foreign policy, and eventually appears to abandon the High King of the Noldor. In a way, he acts like Maedhros, self-assured and independent, with the significant differences that he is not manning the most dangerous section of the Siege of Angband, that he is not on the other side of the continent, and that after Fingolfin’s death, he does not remain loyal to Fingon. Finrod is also not the one who should have been king (Nelyafinwë!) if Fëanor had not screwed up so royally. And his epithet is the faithful

There are a few structural reasons why Finrod is like this. 

For one, Finrod isn’t really part of the same story as the rest of the princes of the Noldor. Like Lúthien, Turgon and Aredhel, he’s more of a Great Tales character than a War of the Jewels character. The principal characters of the Great Tales are less present in the War of the Jewels narrative. Finrod is more connected to the war than, say, Turgon, who basically disappears for most of the story until the narrative of the Fall of Gondolin (a Great Tale) ramps up. But he’s still firmly a Great Tales character first, and a prince of the Noldor and vassal of the High King in the war against Morgoth second. 

More specifically, in his Great Tale, the fairytale of Beren and Lúthien, Finrod functionally plays the role of Beren’s fairy godmother, a powerful magical mentor and guardian to the fairytale’s human protagonist. (Huan plays the same role for Lúthien, the magical—possibly shapeshifting—talking animal who supports the fairytale’s protagonist, think Puss in Boots.) And Finrod’s main narrative purpose is to help Beren, so that comes first. Interestingly, at this point Finrod’s kinship with Thingol basically disappears from the narrative (likely because it didn’t yet exist when Tolkien wrote the Lay of Leithian; Eärwen, daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë, only appeared after LOTR was finished). Why does Finrod, ever the friend of Thingol, not try to intervene diplomatically in Beren’s favour? Because Finrod’s role in the Great Tale is fixed. 

I wonder if Tolkien would have gotten around to changing this. More generally, I wonder if he would have changed the story of Beren and Lúthien in his later years. It’s a very whimsical, fairytale-like story with characters who seem stuck how they were decades prior in the post-Sketch years, while the world and relationships had changed around them. 

Much like how Tolkien had tried to rewrite the Hobbit post-LOTR to make it less whimsical and fairytale-like (he gave up on that attempt), and much how elements of his characterisation had returned to something much closer to the Sketch (in particular Maedhros and Maglor), I wonder if Beren and Lúthien would have been changed in some way, in particular as regards Thingol’s relationship with Finrod that had appeared in the intervening decades, and the role of Celegorm (who had begun as founder of Nargothrond and Beren’s friend and helper, and had progressively gotten worse over the decades) and Curufin (whom Tolkien wanted to give some kind of redemption late in life). 

Sources 

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

TIL that Christopher Tolkien invented the idea of the Nauglamír being created for Finrod

Chapter 13 of the published QS tells us that the Dwarves made an extraordinary necklace for Finrod Felagund using gems from Valinor, and I never questioned the origins of that idea because it's in chapter 13 and there is plenty of textual basis for this chapter. It's mostly the later chapters that CT had to alter or invent.

But no, the Nauglamír literally did not even exist before Finrod's death in any text written by Tolkien. It was only ever created for Thingol.

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

TIL that Christopher Tolkien completely made up Finrod having the Nauglamír

Chapter 13 of the published QS tells us that the Dwarves made an extraordinary necklace for Finrod Felagund using gems from Valinor, and I never questioned the origins of that idea because it's in chapter 13 and there is plenty of textual basis for this chapter. It's mostly the later chapters that CT had to alter or invent.

But no, the Nauglamír literally did not even exist before Finrod's death in any text written by Tolkien. It was only ever created for Thingol.

reddit.com
u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago
▲ 49 r/tolkienfans+1 crossposts

The swan-maiden of Alqualondë

Eärwen, Finarfin’s Telerin wife and the daughter of Olwë, prince of Alqualondë, bears the epithet the swan-maiden of Alqualondë (HoME X, p. 177). 

Now, the Teleri are associated with swans: Ulmo or Ossë (depending on the version) gave them swans that then drew the ships of the Teleri across the sea to Aman; Alqualondë itself means Swanhaven, and later on, the white ships of the Teleri are made to resemble swans. 

So calling the princess of Swanhaven “swan-maiden” as an epithet isn’t exactly far-fetched. 

But the term “swan-maiden” actually exists, and it’s a term for an absolutely ubiquitous mythological trope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_maiden

…and that’s Elwing, not Eärwen, but Tolkien certainly knew about the idea of the swan-maiden as the the supernatural wife, especially since it’s very common in the Germanic mythology that he based most of his world-building on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_maiden#Germanic_legend. Interestingly, it was also Weyland/Fëanor who loved a swan-maiden, not only Fëanor’s/Weyland’s brother(s). 

There might be some supernatural echo with Eärwen the swan-maiden in the Quenta too: her children seem extremely given to prophecies and foresight even compared to the standards of the Noldor. Finrod, Aegnor and Galadriel seem to be a lot less human and physical and far more spiritual (and supernatural in an incomprehensible way) than, say, Fingolfin and his children, who are all not given to prophecies, and who have many fundamentally human traits like impatience, recklessness, envy, wrath and resentment. (Angrod is the exception. He really feels like a son of Fingolfin more than like a brother of Finrod, Aegnor and Galadriel, and it’s no surprise that he’s the only one who marries early and has a child in Aman, while Finrod and Aegnor both will not marry for reason of Doom. Aegnor in particular does not marry Andreth even though he loves her.) 

u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 — 1 month ago

What happened to Celegorm the fair?

All the Sons of Fëanor are fascinating, but Celegorm is certainly up there, because his downfall is the steepest in the entire First Age. And not just because of where he ends up, but because of where he started: as the only Elven friend of a Vala and the master of a Maia. 

Oromë and Huan 

Note that in the Sketch (1926), Celegorm the fair is not named as a hunter yet, only the twins (HoME IV, p. 15). Equally, in the Sketch, Huan has nothing to do with Celegorm: he’s an independent agent, “lord of dogs”, with his own independent territory depicted on maps (HoME III, p. 244). 

The association of Celegorm and Huan only appears a bit later, in Synopsis I for the Lay of Leithian, where Huan is said to be Celegorm’s dog (HoME III, p. 244). At this point, Celegorm is king of Nargothrond and assists Beren and treats Lúthien completely fairly, and Huan independently helps her (HoME III, p. 244). (Celegorm subsequently becomes more evil in stages: first he imprisons Lúthien but eventually lets her go himself, then we get to the final version where she has to escape with Huan’s help.) 

In the Lay of Leithian (1928), Huan is firmly Celegorm’s dog, and the association with Oromë is also there already: “In Tavros’ friths and pastures green had Huan once a young whelp been. He grew the swiftest of the swift, and Oromë gave him as a gift to Celegorm, who loved to follow the great God’s horn o’er hill and hollow. Alone of hounds of the Land of Light, when sons of Fëanor took to flight and came into the North, he stayed beside his master. Every raid and every foray wild he shared, and into mortal battle dared. Often he saved his Gnomish lord from Orc and wolf and leaping sword.” (HoME III, Lay of Leithian, lines 2264–2277)

In the Quenta Noldorinwa (1930), Celegorm is a hunter and Oromë’s friend: “Celegorm the fair, the friend of Oromë.” (HoME IV, p. 88) The specifics about Huan’s origin from the Lay are repeated in the Quenta: “Huan was the name of the chief of the hounds of Celegorm. He was of immortal race from the hunting-lands of Oromë. Oromë gave him to Celegorm long before in Valinor, when Celegorm often rode in the train of the God and followed his horn.” (HoME IV, p. 110) 

This remains the same in the Quenta Silmarillion (1937): “A hunter also was Celegorn, who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë and followed oft the great god’s horn.” (HoME V, p. 223) Additionally, we are told that while Fëanor and all his other sons visit Aulë, Celegorm stays with Oromë: “Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë; but Celegorn went rather to the house of Oromë, and there he got great knowledge of all birds and beasts, and all their tongues he knew.” (HoME V, p. 225) A new element enters the Quenta: Celegorm is able to speak to birds and beasts. That’s such a fairytale/Prince Charming element. You know who else in the Quenta is friends with animals? Beren: “he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him” (Sil, QS, ch. 19). I think that it’s fascinating that Celegorm and Beren share this ultra-specific fairytale-like trait. 

This all remains exactly the same in the Later QS (1950s): “A hunter also was Celegorn [> Celegorm], who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë and followed oft the great god’s horn.” (HoME X, p. 177) “Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë; but Celegorn [> Celegorm] went rather to the house of Oromë, and there he got great knowledge of all birds and beasts, and all their tongues he knew.” (HoME X, p. 179) 

I find it interesting that Celegorm’s friendship with Oromë only appeared after Tolkien had decided that he should eventually become evil/take the villain role in the tale of Beren and Lúthien. It’s not some remnant from way back when Celegorm had basically been Finrod Felagund, the morally unimpeachable founder of Nargothrond who had sworn the oath of Barahir and helped Beren. It came after Celegorm’s downfall in the narrative had been decided, and yet, for decades afterwards, Tolkien kept highlighting that Celegorm had not only followed Oromë, but that they had been friends

Friendship with Valar 

And this is not normal. As far as I’m aware, Celegorm-and-Oromë is the only friend pair between an Elf and a Vala

Sure, several of the Valar are said to be the friends of some group of Elves: Aulë is the “friend of the Noldor”, and the Teleri are the “friends of Ossë” and vice versa. But it’s never one Elf being friends with a Vala. Just consider the following examples of personal relationships between Valar and Elves: 

  • Aulë and Mahtan: 
    • “Her father, Mahtan, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë.” (HoME X, p. 272) 
    • Her kin were devoted to Aulë, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion.” (HoME XII, Shibboleth, p. 354) 
    • “Nerdanel’s father was an ‘Aulendil’ [> ‘Aulendur’], and became a great smith. […] A note is appended to Aulendur: ‘Servant of Aulë’: sc. one who was devoted to that Vala. It was applied especially to those persons, or families, among the Noldor who actually entered Aulë’s service, and who in return received instruction from him.” (HoME XII, Shibboleth, p. 365–366) → Importantly, Tolkien first wrote Aulendil, meaning friend of Aulë, and then replaced it with Aulendur, meaning servant of Aulë. See also: https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2090123411.html. It’s pretty clear that Tolkien didn’t consider the implication of friendship right for this kind of devoted master-apprentice/follower relationship. Friendship, meanwhile, implies some kind of equality in relations.
  • Aulë and Fëanor: “Aulë, friend of the Noldor [added: lover of Fëanor]” (HoME X, Later QS, p. 240). Again, not friendship. (Does anyone think that Fëanor is capable of simple friendship?) (The Quenya word for lover and friend is identical, but Tolkien chose these English words for a reason. Lover also has strong associations with the idea of supporter/admirer, which would fit here.) 
  • Míriel and Vairë: “But Míriel was accepted by Vairë and became her chief handmaid” (HoME X, p. 250). This very much resembles Mahtan’s position: just like Mahtan, a great smith, joins the service of Aulë the Smith, Míriel, the greatest weaver and cloth-worker of the Noldor, joins the household of Vairë the Weaver
  • Galadriel: “Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor.” (UT, p. 304) This seems to be a more distant relationship than Mahtan or Míriel and their respective Valar, a teacher-pupil relationship. Again, certainly not friendship.

 

No, it seems to me that Celegorm is the only Elf who’s on a friendship footing with a Vala.  

Gifts in the culture of the Noldor 

This is further reinforced by the gift of Huan by Oromë: “Now the chief of the wolf-hounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan. He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Oromë had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor, and there he had followed the horn of his master, before evil came. Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.” (Sil, QS, ch. 19) 

Gifts just because between individuals are not something very common in these cultures. Only bridal gifts (jewels, HoME X, p. 211) and gifts for reasons of romantic love (think Arwen’s standard for Aragorn, or Celebrimbor’s gifts to Galadriel) seem to be common. Otherwise, saving someone’s life seems to warrant a gift in return (Azaghâl gives Maedhros the Dragon-helm; Finrod gives Barahir his ring; Maedhros gives Fingon a bridal jewel and Fingon’s father his crown and enough horses for an army). Other cases of gifts are Fingon (liege-lord) → Hador (vassal), and Enerdhil (smith of Gondolin) → Idril (princess of Gondolin). The Noldor also give the Teleri a ton of gems when the Teleri arrive in Aman, but that is not an individual gift. 

The only case of just because gift-giving between equals that I’m aware of is Maedhros and Fingon regularly sending gifts to each other: “Maedhros afterwards sent [the Dragon-helm] as a gift to Fingon, with whom he often exchanged tokens of friendship, remembering how Fingon had driven Glaurung back to Angband.” (UT, p. 98) 

And Celegorm being given Huan by Oromë becomes even more intriguing when you realise what Huan is: not just an animal, specifically. 

What are Huan and the Great Eagles? 

According to Myths Transformed (written on papers from 1955, found in a folded newspaper from 1959), Tolkien considered two different “origin stories” for Huan and the Great Eagles: Maiar and “elevated” animals. He first wrote about them as Maiar: 

  • “But true ‘rational’ creatures, ‘speaking peoples’, are all of human/‘humanoid’ form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar — emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.” (HoME X, p. 410, fn omitted) 
  • “Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)” (HoME X, p. 412)

 

But then, in the same text, Tolkien considered the origin of Orcs and how they learned to speak, and deciding that neither Morgoth nor the Valar can create life with souls like Elves, Men and Dwarves (only Eru can give fëar), he wrote that the Eagles and Huan were animals lifted up by the Valar, like the Orcs by Morgoth: “The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level — but they still had no fëar.” (HoME X, p. 411) 

However, Tolkien quickly changed his mind again. In ca. 1959, he wrote, “Maiar could take the form of Eagles etc.” (NoME, p. 291) And in a late passage from ca. 1970 or later, he confirmed this: “The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles that we hear of in the legends of the war of the Noldor against Melkor” (NoME, p. 308). That is, since the Eagles and Huan had always been of the same category in Tolkien’s mind, it seems clear that Huan was a Maia

So it seems that somehow, Oromë (!) gave his friend (!!) Celegorm a Maia (!!!) as a pet (!!!!). 

Further thoughts

Oromë isn’t just anyone. He has an eye for evil, since he’s one of the few Valar who understand the dangers posed by Morgoth. He’s opposed to Manwë releasing Morgoth in the Later Annals of Valinor (HoME V, p. 113), and when the Elves awake, he’s the one who finds them and fights against Morgoth’s monsters. He also (unsuccessfully) pursues Morgoth with Tulkas after Morgoth inevitably starts killing in Valinor. That is, Oromë doesn’t seem the type who’s blind to evil like Manwë is. And yet, his favourite Elf seems to be Celegorm, whom he gave the greatest hound of all time as a gift. 

I wish we knew what this Vala saw in Celegorm, back then still known under the epithet the fair. I wish we knew anything about Celegorm’s character before he imploded in the most aggressive, destructive way possible after he’d lost Himlad in the Dagor Bragollach. I wish we knew what made Celegorm Oromë’s friend, and what led Oromë to giving Celegorm a Maia as a gift (and what led said Maia to follow Celegorm for five further centuries after Alqualondë and Losgar). 

And here we have the problem of Celegorm: he’s a born main character, a second Maedhros in looks, strength, fiery temperament, charisma, ability to form friendships across political lines, military might and martial prowess (https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1c443m3/the_falls_of_maedhros_and_celegorm/), and additionally the friend of a Vala, but we see pretty much nothing of his character until he suddenly becomes the villain in the fairytale (https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1t0bg9n/the_fairytale_of_beren_and_lúthien/) of Beren and Lúthien.

But since we don’t, Celegorm’s downfall feels unearned and unsatisfying. He used to be amazing, the favourite of one of the best of the Valar, and suddenly he’s irredeemably evil. What led him there? Why is his fall so much steeper and crueller than Maedhros’s? What made Celegorm change from a Vala’s friend to trying to coerce Thingol into letting him marry Lúthien (I love how the text implies that the only one whose consent here is relevant is Thingol and not Lúthien: “they purposed […] to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm.” Sil, QS, ch. 19), and to kill Beren and Lúthien in a forest unprovoked? 

That kind of behaviour is incredibly out of nowhere for an Elf. The only one who’s worse is Eöl, and he’s set up from the start as an uncommonly awful person. Depending on his backstory, Eöl is a military deserter (HoME IV, p. 136), someone who hates even his own people so much that he needed his own creepy silent dark forest to be happy (Sil, QS, ch. 16), or an Elf who was captured by Morgoth but made himself so useful to him that he was favoured and eventually allowed to escape to make life worse for the peoples of Beleriand (HoME XI, p. 321). Anyway, everything we hear about Eöl’s character from the start is bad, and he was always a questionable person even long before we “meet” him. 

But Celegorm? Celegorm the fair? The friend of Oromë? The master of Huan? The friend of the sons of Finarfin and of Aredhel? The saviour of Círdan and the Havens in the Second Battle? The saviour of Orodreth and the people of Minas Tirith in the Fourth Battle? 

What happened to Celegorm? 

(You could argue that Celegorm spectacularly implodes just after Aredhel’s death at Eöl’s hands. Contrary to popular beliefs, there was some level of communication between Gondolin and the outside world: for example, Gondolin heard of the fame of Túrin and Beleg. Celegorm might even feel guilty because Aredhel left Gondolin to visit him, and he could have saved her from Eöl long before. But there must be more, in my opinion. 

After all, just imagine that Maedhros had been in Nargothrond with Curufin: he’d certainly have deposed Finrod and prevented Finrod’s planned expedition/suicide-mission, but nothing else. And you could argue that Maedhros’s boyfriend is currently alive and well, so no reason to implode just yet, but even once Maedhros loses it after the Nirnaeth and Fingon’s death in the battle that Maedhros himself had orchestrated, he’s always the voice of restraint, while Celegorm is the inciter. 

The only thing we know of Maedhros personally in the Second Kinslaying is that he tries to save the sons of Dior whom Celegorm’s servants had left in the woods. He subsequently delays the Third Kinslaying by nineteen years and it does not sound like he even participated in it in the Later Annals of Beleriand. He then fosters Elrond. Meanwhile, Celegorm is completely off the rails throughout, from the whole Lúthien business over sending Thingol and co death threats while Maedhros is trying to organise the Union to fight against Morgoth to Celegorm’s servants taking the sons of Dior and leaving them in the woods to starve.) 

Sources 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 1999 (softcover) [cited as: The Silmarillion].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: UT].

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV]. 

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII].

The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

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