Since it was able to affect Kibito Kai in the Teleport Dimension, I’ve heard this feat be explained as 4D spatial hax, or immeasurable speed, or 4D AP, or even Outerversal AP. So realistically how does it scale?
Who do you think would win this? I know it seems like a mismatch but hear me out. In the anime, Base Vegito was definitely stronger than Boohan but the gap wasn’t massive. Likely 2x or less considering he needed to put in effort to stop Boohan’s giant death ball and later his vice shout. Boohan also implies that he’s holding back before Vegito goes into Ssj.
Goku by this point is pretty safely stronger than Kid Boo in base who is significantly stronger than Super Boo in the Z continuity (Ssj Goku vs Ultimate Gohan filler) and arguably stronger than Boohan depending on who you ask.
Round 1: Both in base
Round 2: Goku can use Ssj3
I’ll be honest the first time I watched GT I wasn’t a big fan of the japanese OST. Besides a few tracks here and there I thought it was pretty underwhelming. I had gotten used to the wacky atmosphere of Kikuchi, the rock themes of the American Z OST (not calling it the “Faulconer” OST) and Mark Menza, and the large scale cinematic tracks of Sumitomo. So experiencing GT’s original OST for the first time felt like musical whiplash.
Dragon Ball being an action series means it’s going to have cool action music. However unlike the other series’, GT’s action music is a lot less hype but more nostalgic in a sense. The soundtrack as a whole is slower, more orchestral and dream like. It didn’t really connect for me until having rewatched the series, where I was able to appreciate how different it is from the rest. GT was the end of Dragon Ball at the time, and when you look at Goku’s journey from start to finish it makes sense that the atmosphere of GT feels as ethereal as it does. It’s definitely grown on me a LOT since my first watch, but I also recently listened to Path to Power’s OST (also composed by Akihito Tokunaga) and I love it just as much as if not even more than GTs. I just wish they had used more PtP tracks in the anime.
(Inspired by u/MajorFamilyDisgrace)
GT's scaling has always been contentious, but I was surprised to learn that there are people out there who still believe that GT's scaling caps at galaxy level. So I decided to compile any and all evidence of GT's Universal+ scaling. I've put them in order from least viable to most.
1.) Movie 14 Scaling
Validity: Very weak
Scaling: Bare minimum above Vegito - Possibly 4D
It’s possible that Movie 14 is canon to GT according to this statement from a Toei press release:
"The global phenomenon Dragon Ball is being made into a movie using Toei Animation’s latest technology, consistently realized as a Toriyama work, with the original author Akira Toriyama himself deeply involved from the script stage for the first time. An episode from between the animation series “Z” and “GT”, or in other words from the blank decade between the end of the battle with Majin Boo in chapter 517 of the manga and chapter 518, will be depicted for the first time.
There’s also the Shueisha timeline in which you can see Movie 14 before GT. In an issue of V-Jump, Movie Goku and Beerus’ battle was described as “Super Dimensional”. I don’t think I need to explain why this is graded the weakest. Though you could take it as canon and there isn’t an extremely solid argument against it I guess.
2.) Ssj Gogeta Scaling
Validity: Weak
Scaling: Universal - Multiversal
Super Baby 1 was described by Goku as having the strongest Ki ever, which would make him stronger than Ssj Vegito. Ssj Vegito is at least relative to Ssj Gogeta according to promotional material, and in Jump Anime Library 1 Ssj Gogeta’s aura is described as creating a Big Bang level explosion. If taken literally, this could put Super Baby 1 at multiversal levels of power at least, although it could very well just be a hype statement. This is similar to when V-Jump claimed that Ssj4 Goku has “Infinite Power”.
Ssj Gogeta's \"Big Bang Explosion\"
3.) Movie 12 Scaling
Validity: Problematic
Scaling: Multiversal
Vegeta knows the fusion dance + Great Saiyawoman who first appears in Movie 12 is seen in GT + Movie 12 implied to be canon to GT in Perfect Files Vol 2. In this movie, Ssj3 Goku shakes multiple universe sized realms, and Ssj Gogeta’s aura is stated to be relative to the big bang in promotional material. However fusion reborn seems to take place in a strange alternate timeline where Boo was defeated by Gohan (Vegeta is in hell, Goku’s still dead, and Gohan is on earth with his potential seemingly unlocked, and everybody else besides Boo is still alive), which wouldn’t line up with the Oob existing in GT.
Guide impliying FR and GT Gogeta are the same.
4.) Revenge Death Ball Scaling
Validity: Problematic
Scaling: Multi Solar System - Possibly Outerversal
Baby claims that his Revenge Death Ball would atomize Goku to the point of existence erasure. The attack also manages to affect Kibito Kai during Instantaneous Movement. The first point could be another hype statement, but the second depends on how you interpret Instantaneous Movement. This feat could upscale Baby to having possibly outerversal levels of power, or it could be downplayed to a Super Boo/ Boohan tier feat seeing as Super Boo ripped a hole open from a subspace with a different flow of time into reality. It’s contentious on both ends, however it would still give the attack inaccessible speed.
Guide statement about Instant Transmission
5.) Garlic Jr Hyperspace
Validity: Problematic
Scaling: Hyperversal
Garlic Jr creates the dead zone with his ki. This is stated both by himself and guides. Daizenshuu 7 describes the dead zone as a hyperspace. A hyperspace is a higher than 3 dimensional space, thus Garlic Jr (and everybody stronger than him) would scale to this. As far as I’m aware (correct me if I’m wrong), nothing specifically invalidates this feat, the main reason it’s problematic is that it seems to be a wild outlier considering how early in the anime’s timeline this takes place.
Daizenshuu statement about Dead Zone
6.) Hellfighter 17 Scaling
Validity: Debatable
Scaling: Universal+
The two Android 17’s merge hell and the living realm (2 universes) with their power. This would count as “significantly affecting 2 universes”, however one could also consider it as the two of them just creating a portal I guess. Hellfighter 17 was also described as having the “power of hell poured into (him)”. That statement could be taken literally, or it could be seen as another hype statement like Gogeta’s Big Bang level aura.
7.) Sugoroku Space Scaling
Validity: Debatable
Scaling: Multi Solar System - Possibly Outerversal
Sugoroku Space is supposedly a dimension beyond space time, and arguably even life and death based on it being the DB equivalent to the “River Sanzu”. Goku destroys said dimension with a kamehameha. The problem with scaling this is that the descriptions of this space are kind of vague. Thus this feat could be downplayed to another Super Boo/ Boohan tier feat, however the “between time and space” statement compounded by the fact that Kibito Kai can’t reach it could upscale Goku to multiversal, complex multiversal, or even possibly Outerversal.
Goku destroying Sugoroku Space
8.) Universal Lood
Validity: Decent
Scaling: Universal
Lood was said to “…destroy this chaotic universe!”. The scaling does line up considering he becomes significantly more powerful than Ssj Goku, but it could also just be a hype statement.
9.) Kid Boo Scaling
Validity: Decent
Scaling: Low Universal
Boohan is borderline universal in the anime, multi galaxy at bare minimum. Kid Boo is blatantly stated to be the strongest Boo on multiple occasions. No, not just the most dangerous, THE MOST POWERFUL. Yes I am aware that it doesn’t make sense, but it does sort of line up with the anime original scene of Ssj Goku fighting the fake Ultimate Gohan inside of Boo. Goku at the end of Z clashes with Oob, who is heavily implied to be as powerful as Kid Boo. Goku even states that Oob could win the tournament despite Good Boo being there. Beginning of GT Goku > EoZ Goku = Uub = Kid Boo > low universal Boohan. Base Goku then gets TRILLIONS of times stronger throughout GT. Kid Boo could also be upscaled to universal via Goku saying that Boo will make the “...entire universe go poof.”. Again, could just be a hype statement. Kid Boo was also going to nuke the Grand Kai’s planet, which is around the orbit of Heaven (a universe sized realm) like a moon.
10.) Ascended Goku
Validity: Decent
Scaling: Boundless
In an interview with Atsushi Maekawa, Goku after his “rebirth” was stated to be cloaked in an aura that wouldn’t let any attack near him, making him completely invulnerable. We see this for ourselves when Omega launches his Minus Energy Ball at Goku and it has no effect on him. The interview also goes into the Taoist origins of his rebirth, and it’s clear that the ending was inspired by the concept of “Ascension to Heaven in Broad Daylight”. Goku is able to seemingly be in multiple places at once, doesn’t age, and has flown off to a mysterious place with Shenron. All that being said, the Ascension implication would make him basically above every other character in all of Dragon Ball. The only argument against this is the statement from the Perfect Files in which Ssj4 Gogeta is stated to be the strongest. However this statement still doesn’t negate Goku’s supposed invulnerability.
11.) Goku Shaking Otherworld
Validity: Solid
Scaling: Universal+
Base Goku powers up and accidentally causes a significant portion of Otherworld (possibly multiple Universe sized realms) to shake violently.
12.) Omega Scaling
Validity: Solid
Scaling: Low Multiversal
Omega’s negative energy was going to passively destroy all realms of the universe (and possibly beyond). Omega is equal to if not stronger than Black Smoke Shenron who was a threat to the whole macrocosm.
Who do you think would win between CC Goku (SDBH) and Sonic from the main series games (as of Frontiers DLC)?
We’ll split this into multiplier rounds:
Round 1: Base vs Base Round 2: Super Saiyan Blue vs Super Sonic Round 3: Universal Tree Absorbed Blue vs Full Cyber Super Sonic
We all know this show has quite a few flaws, how would you fix them? What would you add / remove?
My ideas so far are:
I’m compiling a list of any and all proofs of GT being at LEAST universal. Any suggestions? I’m trying to gather anything from GT itself, the Z anime, movies, guidebooks, promotional material etc.
I know we’ve gotten more than a few posts like this before, but I’ve decided to compile every possible Ssg multiplier to try and figure out the most realistic answer. I’ll be going from the lowest calculated multiplier to the highest.
Vs Hit (manga) In the manga, Ssb Vegeta is unable to do anything against Hit whilst Ssg Goku easily outclasses him. Whis explains that Hit’s powers only work on those who are around his power level, and that Vegeta’s energy consumption resulted in him being weaker in Ssb than Goku in Ssg. Whis also claims that Vegeta isn’t even able to operate at 10% of his power. If we assume Ssb Vegeta was only operating at 1% of his power (since Ssg = 2% of Ssb), then 1% Ssb Vegeta ~ Hit. And as we’d see in his fight against Goku, he was seemingly equal to Ssj Goku, but Goku felt like he’d need to use Ssg to overcome Hit’d timeskip. Which implies that TS would have worked on Ssj3 Goku / Vegeta. So 1% Ssb Vegeta ~ Hit ~ Ssj3 Goku. By that logic, 100% Ssb Vegeta would be 100x Ssj3 (40,000x base) and since Ssb is just Ssg + Ssj, Ssg would be an 800x multiplier.
Vs Broly When fighting Vegeta, Broly is weaker than base Vegeta at the beginning but grows to become stronger than Ssj Vegeta, to the point where Vegeta has to use Ssg to stop him. If we assume that Base Broly at the end of Round 1= Ssj2 Vegeta, that’d make him 100x Base Vegeta. Then Broly gets his 10x Ikari / Wrath powerup and is able to overpower Ssg Vegeta. Ssg in that case would be approximately a 1,000x multiplier.
Fusion These next ones require the use of a Fusion multiplier. Vados states that when two fighters fuse, their powers are added and then multiplied tens of times. Using that statement, fans thought of a possible fusion multiplier: “Fighter A at their peak + Fighter B at their peak x100 = Fighter C”. This formula potentially lines up with a statement about Vegito in the Boo saga which I’ll explain in the “Vs Beerus” portion of the post.
Vs Kefla (anime) After Kale controls her Lssj form, her and Ssj2 Caulifla are able to trade blows with Ssj2 Goku. [Ssj2 Goku ~ Ssj2 Caulifla and LSsj Kale] Using the Fusion formula above, we’d find that: Ssj2 Goku x 100 = Kefla We see later on that Ssg Goku is able to fight pretty evenly against Kefla which means: Ssj2 x 100= Ssg Ssg Goku = 10,000x multiplier
Vs Beerus [Lowball] After he’s defeated on King Kai’s planet, Goku remarks that even Fusion won’t be enough to defeat Beerus. However when he achieves Ssg, he seems to be more confident in his abilities. This implies that Ssg is at the bare minimum as strong as Ssj Vegito. In Daizenshuu 7, Vegito is stated to have “even greater (strength) than that of a Super Saiyan 3”. So Base Vegito > 400x Goku Ssj Vegito > 20,000x Goku Ssg > 20,000x multiplier This one is admittedly a pretty weak argument since the guide only says that he’s stronger than Ssj3, it never says by how much.
Vs Beerus Now let’s apply that same logic but using the Fusion formula from earlier. Peak of A + Peak of B x 100 = Fusion Ssj3 Goku [400] + Ssj2 Vegeta [100] x100= 50,000x Base Goku / Vegeta. This kind of makes sense since in the GT Perfect Files, Vegito is said to be “perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4”. What this statement is most likely saying is that the Boo Saga Vegito Multiplier > Regular Ssj4 Multiplier. If you watch the Baby Saga carefully, you’ll find Ssj4’s multiplier to be about 25,600-32,000x base (Ssj4 Goku> Golden Ozaru Baby > 8x Super Baby 2 > 8x Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku.) so the statement from the Perfect Files makes sense.
If Vegito was capable of Ssj3 by this point, then Ssg would likely be more powerful than that. Base Vegito = 50,000x multiplier Ssg > Ssj3 Vegito Ssg > 20,000,000x multiplier
Realistic Answer? Clearly these multipliers are all over the place, and there’s no real way to resolve them without some headcanon. My personal belief is that the Ritual Ssg was significantly stronger than the Ssg we see throughout the rest of Super. Perhaps the ritual granted Goku a 20,000,000x boost but Regular Ssg is somewhere between a 800x - 20,000x multiplier? Or maybe it’s just however strong the plot requires it to be🙂↕️.
