u/Super_Majin_Cell

Consider this post a sequel to the last one about the titans' punishments and rewards (but is not as long so don't worry), but I had to talk in its own post about how Zeus thunderbolt is meant to be a unique weapon that is outside what even the gods consider normal, and that is AWESOME. The origin of the thunderbolt is the dephts of Tartarus, a place the gods dread and fear.

The Cyclopes Arges, Brontes and Sterope not only created thunderbolts for Zeus but their very names are linked to lightning and thunder. As for their brother Briareus, his alternate name is Aegaeon, that means stormy so there is a link here. And Ouranos hated them for their power. I think is unfortunate that so many retellings of this myth has Ouranos hating them because they are "ugly", almost as if the situation is a comedy. But no, he feared what they could do.

Hesiod Theogony: "three other sons were born of Gaia and Ouranos great and doughty beyond telling, Cottus and Briareus and Gyges, presumptuous children. From their shoulders sprang an hundred arms, not to be approached, and each had fifty heads upon his shoulders on their strong limbs, and irresistible was the stubborn strength that was in their great forms. For of all the children that were born of Gaia and Ouranos, these were the most terrible, and they were hated by their own father from the first. And he used to hide them all away in a secret place of Earth so soon as each was born, and would not suffer them to come up into the light: and Ouranos rejoiced in his evil doing."

The titan children posed no threat in comparision, but according to the Orphics, Gaia gave them to Nyx to escape the evil of their father.

Orphic Fragment 129 by Otto Kern: "But from out of them all, Nyx nursed and cared for Cronus."

Cronus is tired of this so he and his mother plan Ouranos downfall. But when Cronus obtain the power, he locks his monstrous siblings again.

Apollodorus Bibliotheca: "But Gaia, grieved at the destruction of her children, who had been cast into Tartarus, persuaded the Titans to attack their father and gave Cronus an adamantine sickle. And they, all but Oceanus, attacked him, and Cronus cut off his father's genitals and threw them into the sea; and from the drops of the flowing blood were born Furies, to wit, Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera. And, having dethroned their father, they brought up their brethren who had been hurled down to Tartarus, and committed the sovereignty to Cronus. But he again bound and shut them up in Tartarus."

So two sky kings feared what these stormy monsters could do, why is that? Zeus, however, didn't fear them, he embraces the power of the thunderbolt. Hesiod says that Gaia had hidden the thunderbolt in Tartarus but the Cyclopes gave it to Zeus: "And they (Cyclopes) remembered to be grateful to him (Zeus) for his kindness, and gave him thunder and the glowing thunderbolt and lightening: for before that, huge Gaia had hidden these. In them Zeus trusts and rules over mortals and immortals."

But did you know that there was another being that also used the thunderbolt? It was Campe, a monstrous nymph of Tartarus (AND I COMPLETELY FORGOT TO MENTION HER IN MY LAST POST NOOOOO). She guarded the Cyclopes and Hecatoncheries for Cronus, and the book Dionysiaca has her in another role, as a monstrous being that embodied the Thunderbolt and ravaged the Earth when she wanted.

Nonnus' Dionysiaca: "Such was manifoldshaped Campe as she rose writhing, and flew roaming about earth and air and briny deep, and flapping a couple of dusky wings, rousing tempests and arming gales, that blackwinged nymph of Tartarus: from her eyelids a flickering flame belched out far-travelling sparks. Yet heavenly Zeus your father killed that great monster, and conquered the snaky Enyo (war-goddess) of Cronus."

So you can see the difference between Cronus and Zeus. Zeus will use the power of the thunderbolt to estabilish order, but Cronus would let a mad monster use the thunderbolt to destroy everything in her path with no rhyme or reason, and remember, Cronus feared the Cyclopes and Hecatoncheries, is very likely that he feared Campe as well, this is why he let her do as she pleases. So Zeus is different from the two earlier kings. They feared the thunderbolt above all else, because it was a thing from Tartarus, the realm most feared by the gods. But Zeus unites Tartarus with the Sky: he is a Sky God that uses the thunderbolt that originated from Tartarus itself.

The thunderbolt symbolizes Zeus victory over the titans. Not only he used it to defeat all of his enemies, but when Zeus thunders on high, he scares the Titans, Typhon and the Giants.

Statius Thebaid: "The heavenly palace itself thunders [through Zeus], though no sign is given, the clouds themselves gather an the storms collect without the blast of any wind: one would think Iapetus had burst his Stygian chains."

Homer's Iliad: "The Greeks marched on, like a fire sweeping the earth, and the ground shook beneath them, as when Zeus the Thunderer in anger lashes the land of the Arimi, where they say Typhon lies prostrate."

Even Oceanus and river gods who usually supports Zeus, if they try to do anything funny, backs off because of Zeus' thunderbolt.

Homer's Iliad: "Not even (the river) Achelous vies with Zeus or the mighty and deep-flowing Oceanus, source of the rivers and the sea, the springs and the deep wells: even he fears Zeus’ lightning, when dread thunder crashes from the sky."

When Helios refused to return to his duties after Phaethon death, what forced him to return? Lucian Dialogues:

"HELIOS But he (Phaethon) has suffered for it, and my grief is punishment enough for me, Zeus.

ZEUS Punishment enough, indeed! After daring to do such a thing as that! Well, I forgive you this time. But if ever you transgress again, or send another substitute like him, I will show you how much hotter the thunderbolt is than your fire."

The thunderbolt is the titan's boogeyman. Imagine you being a child river god leaving the school and then yoy hear the thunderbolt? You would cry for your life because you will not want to see Zeus anger. This is a weapon only Zeus has, that Cronus and Ouranos foolish feared and tried to seal away instead of using its potential (or in the case of Cronus, he foolish let Campe go around destroying everything with the thunderbolt instead of using it with a higher purpose).

OBS: I use the Hades games illustrations a lot for these posts. That is because after Disney Hercules, these are my favorite depictions of the gods with some exceptions. I even like his hair here that looks like clouds so it justifie the white hair instead of the black.

Most people think that gods are either Olympians or Titans, but that is completely innacurate. Olympians and Titans are gods that share domain of Heaven and Earth (because their ancestor in common is Ouranos and Gaia), so this is why they fought for the throne of Heaven, but there is other types of gods (I will not explain the Primordials since their existence is essential to the world in a a different way to the other gods):

Sea gods, born of Pontus and Gaia, are confined to the sea, who in mythology is a inferior domain: sea gods just obey the titan or olympian ruler assigned to them, so they don't even need to pick a side (but some did). The Underworld is populated by Daimons, lesser divinities that are children of Nyx. Not all Daimons are of Nyx descent, a lot are born from other gods so these live in other places, but the ones born from Nyx are in the Underworld. And just like the sea gods, they are not relevant for the conflict between Heaven and Earth, they just obey the Titan/Olympian ruler assigned to them.

Titans: the only Titans that needed to be sent to Tartarus are the ones that can be a violent threat to Zeus and have no other place to be in the world except Tartarus. If they ruled in Heaven, they had to be cast down to Tartarus, the opposite of Heaven, and this apply specially to Cronus, Iapetus, Coeus, Crius and Hyperion, who ruled Heaven before the Olympians. But other gods don't needed to be imprisoned in Tartarus depending on their level of threat and obedience, they could be imprisoned in other places, lost privileges but remain free, or just accept Zeus' rule and be fine.

Cronus and Iapetus: these two are the titans that were imprisoned in Tartarus in basically all sources with some two or three exceptions that situates Cronus in other places.

Coeus: greek sources don't mention him after the Titanomachy except as the father of Leto and Asteria. But roman sources do mention him imprisoned in Tartarus.

Menoetius: a son of Iapetus, he was sent to Erebus according to Hesiod, but Tartarus according to the Bibliotheca.

Crius and Hyperion: likely in Tartarus, altrough no surviving source say so.

Pallas: the second son of Crius, likely in Tartarus, but no surviving source says so. He was usually confused as the giant Pallas defeated and skinned alive by Athena later.

Arke: a winged sea goddess born of Thaumas, and she was Iris' sister. Iris was a messenger to the Olympians while Arke helped the Titans. Zeus took out her wings and sent her to Tartarus.

Aegaeon: a sea god, son of Gaia and Pontus, that supported the Titans and was buried by Poseidon under the island of Euboea.

Telchines: either sea goddesses, or children of Tartarus and Nemesis. According to Callimachus, they were buried under islands by Poseidon. Pindar says that they were only punished in a later context, as they made magical poison to afflict other beings, so Zeus sent them to Tartarus.

Regarding these sea gods: Aegaeon (not to be confused with Briareus), the Telchines, Arke and Iris are the only sea gods to have participated in the conflict, and as I said before, sea gods didn't need to fight anyway. I believe they fought to raise their position and gain favors from the winner, and this worked, as Iris was raised by Zeus from a sea goddess to the messenger of the gods and goddess of the rainbow. But Aegaeon, the Telchines and Arke, who were on the losing side, were punished in the sea because they were sea deities, but Arke was buried in Tartarus likely because she can also be considered a sky deity, so Tartarus it is, the inverse of the sky.

Atlas: back to the titans again. Atlas was punished for fighting in the Titanomachy against Zeus. But the Fabulae mentions a Orphic variant: only Cronus was punished at first, so later Atlas lead the titans against Zeus to restore Cronus to power, but he lost and had to hold the sky.

Perses and Asteria: Perses was the third son of Crius. Asteria was daughter of Coeus and wife of Perses. Perses would likely be in Tartarus... if it was not for Mousaios that says that Zeus is the real father of Hecate with Asteria, but then Zeus gave Hecate to Perses to raise as his daughter. So in this version, Perses is a servant of Zeus instead of being anywhere else. But in Hesiod is a different story. Hecate here is a daughter of Perses and Asteria (like most versions), but she had a share of the sky, earth and underworld during Cronus age, and Zeus kept all that for her. So I am less sure of Perses in Hesiod's Theogony, he likely was imprisoned in Tartarus. As for Asteria, she remained free so she was either not important, or supported Zeus side, but later she escaped from Zeus lust and metamorphosed into the island of Delos, and she helped her sister Leto give birth to Apollo and Artemis there.

Astraeus: Astraeus is the firstborn son of Crius. Nonnus wrote that Astraeus was a old enemy of Zeus, but also has him appear as a prophetic god living in the twilight region. I believe thus that his situation is similar to Gaia and Ouranos: he was not imprisoned, just lost some of his glory over time and became a prophetic god to help younger deities.

Typhon, Echidna and Giants: they were not titans and fought Zeus as a reaction to the Titanomachy, but were not part of it. Typhon was imprisoned in Tartarus under mount Aetna, everyone knows this. As for these earlier giants that attacked Zeus, their king was Ophion according to the d scholia to the Iliad, but they lost and were imprisoned in Tartarus, and Zeus made Cronus the king of the giants in Tartarus. This Ophion also appears in another context. He and his wife Eurynome were the first rulers of Heaven, but Cronus and Rhea defeated them, Ophion was thrown either in Tartarus or Oceanus, while Eurynome was imprisoned in Tartarus. Echidna, the wife of Typhon, was either assigned to a underground location or Tartarus if she is immortal; or otherwise she was a mortal monster and thus killed by Apollo later.

TITAN GODS WHO SUPPORTED ZEUS I talked about every enemy of Zeus, including giants and monsters, or that are in a tricky position (Astraeus), or that maybe changed sides but is not clear (Perses). Now for the other ones that supported Zeus from the beginning, or we are sure of when they switched sides.

Oceanus, Tethys, Metis, Styx (and her four children): all of these gods supported Zeus. Oceanus didn't helped Cronus overthrown Ouranos like the other titans. So the domain of Oceanus and Tethys were lower to that of Cronus and Rhea (according to the orphics). Ocean gave his support to Zeus by sending Styx and her children to his side. Metis also helped Zeus by giving him a regurgitant that made Cronus vomit his children. But Oceanus likely didn't helped all that much himself since he was kept in the same position as before. But Styx and Metis were raised to a more powerful position: Metis became the first queen of the gods and she shares Zeus' wisdom quite literaly. Styx became the goddess of Oaths and was given one tenth of Oceanus' waters to rule in the Underworld; and Styx's four children became the gods most close to Zeus' throne and his personal guardians.

Four Winds, Harpies, Xanthus and Balius: The four winds are sons of Astraeus and Eos, while Xanthus and Balius are immortal horses born of Zephyrus and Podarge the Harpy. Diodorus Siculus wrote that Xanthus and Balius were born as gods, but they betrayed the titans to join the Olympians but were ashamed, so they asked Zeus and Poseidon to turn them into horses so the titans could not recognize them, and this was granted to them. So these sons of Zephyrus and Podarge were on the side of the titans originally as if the family of Crius supporting the titans is to be expected. But we know the four winds and the four Harpies are definility on the side of Zeus too, since the winds continued freed with their own domains and even pulled Zeus chariot in horse form. While the Harpies are monstrous winds that serve Zeus.

Iris and Hecate: I already talked about these two, but they supported Zeus and either kept their privilege (Hecate) or were even raised to a higher position than the one they had before (Iris).

Leto: remained free but we don't much about her in these earlier times, but contrary to her sister Asteria that turned into a island, Leto became a respected goddess in the Olympian order by becoming the mother of Apollo and Artemis with Zeus.

Helios, Selene and Eos: Diodorus Siculus says that Zeus before going to war made offerings to the Sky, Earth and Sun to gain their help. That Ouranos and Gaia supported Zeus we know from Hesiod's Theogony. But this text also explains how Helios became Zeus supporter. Pindar wrote that Helios would have taken a share of the world when the world was being divided, but he arrived late and was content with just receiving the island of Rhodes. As for Selene and Eos, they are show fighting against the giants here and there, and everything suggest they didn't lost anything with Zeus rule.

Cyclopes and Hecatoncheiries: Cronus would gain their support if he was not stupid and imprisoned them again after freeing them. Is very likely that he did this because the Cyclopes could forge weapons and the Hecatoncheries could give their strenght to Cronus enemies, but no reason is ever given. Zeus helped them and they did exactly that, they forged the olympians' weapons and the Hecatoncheries helped them defeat the titans. But they continued living close to Tartarus regardless: the Cyclopes received forges while Cottus and Gyges would each guard one of the doors of Tartarus, but Briareus received the bottom of the Aegean Sea, where he married a daughter of Poseidon and he became Zeus personal guard in case other gods rebel against him.

Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne, Theia and Phoebe: the first two obviously supported Zeus from the beginning and gained positions of privilege, as Rhea was the reason he escaped Cronus hands. Rhea lives in Olympus but also received some things to rule over. Themis teached Zeus law before the war. She became one of Zeus wives, the mother of several important goddesses, and became the deity of laws. No source says who Mnemosyne, Theia and Phoebe supported, but they still had some privilege even in Zeus rule: Mnemosyne resides in Boetia and was the mother of the Muses by Zeus; Theia resides in the East where Helios rules; Phoebe resides in Delphi. Is interesting that these goddesses continued freed, but they also lost something. Rhea has her privileges, but the real queen now is Hera; and both Phoebe and Themis lost of some of their prophetic authority to Apollo, altrough with their consent.

Prometheus and Epimetheus: Prometheus was the herald of the titans at first, but Prometheus, according to himself (in the play by Aeschylus), says that he supported Cronus until Themis (who always supported Zeus) said to him that the Titans would lose because they only used brute force. Prometheus tried to convince them to change, but they didn't, so he fled to Zeus side. Epimetheus likely joined him, since both remained unpunished, until later that is, for Prometheus is chained and has his liver devoured by a eagle until Heracles sets him free; while Epimetheus receives Pandora as his wife and he dooms mankind when she opens the jar of evils.

I will not talk about Helios and Apollo and Selene and Artemis since I talked a lot about them in the past. But about other gods who have a similar thing going on regarding similar domains.

Oceanus and Poseidon: A lot of people today makes Oceanus a replaced titan. Even Percy Jackson, where Oceanus didn't supported Cronus, for some reason supports him in the present? The thing about these two is that their domains were completely different. Oceanus was the world encircling river, he was related to fresh water, the limits of the world, and the cycle of the stars that arose from his waters. Later writers knew the world to be round so they named the open salt seas as Oceanus because it was still the same waters as Oceanus, just more scientific accurate. In Ovid, Oceanus is the salt seas and he receives Neptune in his palace. So this god was never considered a past/replaced god. Actually the real syncretism was between Oceanus and Pontus (Sea).

Chronos and Cronus: this might be the most popular case of a god being absorbed by another god. Cronus, the father of Zeus, was the king of sky before becoming a Underworld god (ruler of the titans of Tartarus; ward of Elysium; or even god of reincarnation), with some agriculture aspects like his scythe altrough this aspect is not expanded in myth. Cicero is the only ancient famous writer to say that Saturn in greek is Cronus, "time", confusing his name with Chronos, the real world for time. But what he meant by that is that Cronus, by dominating Ouranos, estabilished the cycle of the stars, turning the sky into a giant clock to mark time (a thing we don't even realise since we can barely see the stars in the night sky). But today, people give him time powers and refer to time as his main thing, with Hades II being the main example, literaly calling him Chronos and time personified. The original Chronos was a primordial time serpent that is a ancestor of the titan god Cronus in Orphism (Chronos>Phanes>Nyx>Ouranos>Cronus), not the same as him.

Themis and Dike: these goddesses do similar things, all related to justice. Dike was Justice itself, daughter of Zeus and Themis, but she is non-existent today as people often refer to Themis as "lady Justice" and don't even know the role the daughter of Zeus played. But even Themis gets sidelined in favour of Nemesis, who is quite popular today more than she was in the past.

Cyclops and Hephaestus: there is a bizarre story where Zeus kills the Cyclops to have the thunderbolt just for himself, and another similar story where Apollo kills them, even through they are supposed to be imortal, so Pherycedes explained that their mortal sons were killed instead. And a few times, like in Percy Jackson, they use this to justifie how Hapheastus took over the business of making thunderbolts, but then Riordan has other cyclops helping Hephaestus anyway? I don't see the point in removing these cyclops but then have other cyclops helping. Now, I don't remember any myth where Hephaestus or Vulcan forges Zeus bolts, definility never with Hephaestus. The Cyclops were not associated with him until some time later, were they started working on the same forge, but they each had their role, with Hephaestus not making the bolts. But modern media often removes or even villanizes the Cyclops and has Hephaestus just make everything for the gods.

Rhea, Hera, Eileithya, Artemis and Selene: all of these goddesses had a thing in common: childbirth. Now, I never saw any media that depicts a goddess in this role, but usually in discussions, I have see people have a hard time trying to understand these goddesses, often believing that Rhea retired or things like that. And this is not because they want to reduce gods in their own projects, is just a thing they arrive naturally, as if gods can't share domains. As for Rhea I have seem some people even say she was trapped in Tartarus? How they dare to say that? Once again titan prejudice attacks, putting everyone in Tartarus.

Athena and Ares: I left the best for last. This is the only case were two greek gods with similar domains were able to survive intact in modern culture. As a result, there is so much discussion trying to find differences between the two. But there is not any... the Homeric Hymm to Athena says that she "delights in the works of Ares", and loves bloodshed and the cries of war. She is not the goddess of war strategy exclusivily, the side of Ares also had strategy. She was not the goddess of defensive war, or of "good war" (whanever that means), or of kings while Ares represents soldiers. They literaly shared all domains when is about war. The Iliad does make Ares weaker and dumber, but everything else has Ares as a respected war god of victory and courage (just like Athena and Zeus too), and even fighting with Athena to a tie, with Zeus having to intervene. The only thing that differentiate these two is that war have at least two sides, and it would be weird for one god to support both sides, so poetry will make Athena and Ares often clash because each support opposing sides, but that is it, but people can't accept that, they want to make both different to justifie their inclusion, instead of just having both? And the same applies to every god I cited above.

I will make a post about the gods and monsters family tree but using the characters from Hercules movie and cartoon. There is a lot of background gods in the movie, a lot of which was already identified by a lot of people so they are not here in this post. These gods don't have names but the artists had to taken to inspiration from somewhere. So why not use headcanon to find these gods anyway?

As for my own opinion, the first god I think should be Hypnos, and the second I think is Selene, because she is close to Artemis on this part of the movie besides having his silvery glow. But you can give our opinion. But the god can't be one that are named and are actual in the show or movie obviously. They can't be Primordials either because Gaia appears and so we have an idea of how they should look in this universe, and is not human-sized.

Is not about the color choosen for them. Their color being purple still don't fit them, and is not like they could not be completely golden since Hera and Aphrodite are completely pink, both the color of their skin and their clothes.

So in my last posts about Helios, some people brought up that Helios do in fact appear in Disney Hercules. I decided to watch werothegreat "Which Gods are in Hercules" video, and they also come to the conclusion that Helios is this background god. And yes it can only be him, altrough Apollo is quite explicity the sun god in this universe, the very first episode of the tv show is even a parody of the Phaethon story but with Apollo.

But there is a design choice that I really like here (and also in Red's drawings of Helios and Apollo in her videos in Overly Sarcastic Productions), and that is Helios having the sun crown in his head, while Apollo has the sun symbol in his clothes. This gives the idea that Apollo canalizes the sun energy without being the sun himself, and it also don't replace Apollo laurel crown with the sun crown as his main symbol (altrough in Disney he has a helmet for some reason).

So Helios in greek mythology is the god with the sun crown, while Apollo uses golden clothes and has other golden imagenary, clearly a sun association, but he don't need to replace (how much I dislike this word in this context!) Helios to have these associations like so many modern adaptations tries to do. Actually in the future I have to make a post about other gods that share domains but are also misunderstood today because some authors are obessed with the idea that there can be only one god of anything.

As for Disney Hercules. Altrough I would prefer Helios to be the god in the Phaethon episode, or at least be named (instead of just being on the background unnamed like many others), is cool to see him coexisting with Apollo instead of being replaced, dead or non-existent, but both being chill in the present. And as for the desing I already talked about it. But yeah until recently I never realised the many gods in the background in the first scene, so that is cool, I had never paid any attention to them.

Since the Odyssey is the most famous part, a lot of people think only Odysseus suffered. But most greek leaders were screwed during their Return. After the greeks burned Troy and divided the spoils among themselves, they quickly realised that Athena was wrathful, so Agamemnon and Menelaus started a fight but Agamemnon decided to stay to make a offering to the gods. Nestor, Diomedes and Menelaus went first, but only Nestor would arrive quickly in his home. After that the second voyage had Calchas, Amphilochus, Leonteus and a few more, some returned, others got lost and died.

Then the third voyage included everyone else, and there it was, Ajax the Lesser. Athena threw a freaking thunderbolt at his ship and sent a storm to punish all the greeks, this storm even caught Menelaus who had sailed earlier and he lost a bunch of ships and got trapped in Egypt with Helen. Ajax said not even the gods could kill him so Poseidon finished the job by destroying the rock where he was. Agamemnon according to Diodorus Siculus lost four ships, Odysseus fleet ended up in Ismarus and almost all of the other greek leaders ended up in several locations like Lybia, Cyprus and Italy and other lands, and they never returned, but had to conquer these places and estabilished themselves there.

Teucer returned but his father Telamon banished him since he didn't stopped his brother Ajax the Great (this is not the same Ajax that I mentioned earlier) suicide, so Teucer ended up in Cyprus. Very unfair since how could he stop his brother from killing himself?

The most difficult part of this meme was to decide how to make Odysseus and Menelaus because I wanted to insert both. Odysseus returned after 10 years without his crew and killed a bunch of suitors and had to be tricked by Penelope to reunite with her. Menelaus, however, stayed in Egypt for 8 years with Helen because of the winds, he caught the sea god Proteus who revealed to him the fate of other characters, and then allowed him to finally sail to Sparta.

Then we have the topic of wives. Like, Penelope is meant to be exceptional in the Odyssey, not the norm. The book mentions Clytemnestra as her opposite but not other wives. Diomedes wife Aegiale betrayed him (because Aphrodite wanted revenge against Diomedes) and then banished him. Idomeneus (my last post about Talos also covered him) was similary banished. While Agamemnon was imediatly killed by his wife and her lover Aegisthus. So Odysseus return was not as bad as most of these other heroes in my opinion.

The Returns of the achaean leaders is among my favorite parts of the greek mythology, for it you have to read Proclus Summary of the Returns, Apollodorus Bibliotheca Epitome, and Tzetzes on Lycophron, for the full thing, plus some other sources. The greeks were victorious in the trojan war but they would not get out scott free for their crimes, and in the end the war was completely hollow since most of them either died with their lineage or had to live without seeing their homes again. Others were killed or exiled imediatly after their return. So yeah, the very bleak ending of the heroic saga.

In the endless pursuit of every single story about greek mythology, sometimes I find things that I didn't even think was possible. One of them is that Talos had a son!

The guy is called Leucus, and the story only exist in Tzetzes scholia on Lycophron. He is also mentioned by the Bibliotheca, but not as a son of Talos, just as a random person. Leucus was adopted by Idomeneus, the king of Crete and grandson of king Minos (maybe because Talos was dead? Talos is defeated by the Argonauts during the reing of king Deucalion, son of Minos). Idomeneus also promised that Leucus would marry his daughter Cleisithera after Idomeneus returned from the Trojan War.

During the war, Nauplius decided to avenge the death of Palamedes by Odysseus. So he united the wives of some kings with suitors. In Crete, Leucus married Meda, wife of Idomeneus. But Leucus then killed Meda and all of Idomeneus children (including Cleisisthera his bribe), and took the island for himself and destroyed ten cities that rebelled. When Idomeneus returned, Leucus banished him, and that is it for Idomeneus, who died exiled from his island by his adopted son.

According to other sources Idomeneus returned home safely. But in this version about Leucus, this is where Crete ends in greek mythology. The lineage of Minos is destroyed, ten cretan cities are destroyed, and Leucus continued to rule until his death apperantly.

But what is most interesting is how Leucus is the son of Talos, the bronze giant as described by Tzetzes (so is not another Talos in case you are wondering). The Bibliotheca when mentioning Talos said he was either a automaton made by Hephaestus, or the last man of the bronze race (who here is interpreted as men made of literal bronze!). If we interpret Talos only as Hephaestus automanon, then he was somehow able to reproduce, but that is one of the greek mythology mysteries.

I think one of the biggest problems in how modern society view greek gods (and gods from any other mythology and religion) is that they view gods as magic users who intervenes in parallel with nature, and that the gods usually intervene to screw with mortals but rarely to help them.

But gods are not magic users twisting nature to their purposes. They are the source of everything. There is two examples that I seen more often being discussed: Aphrodite and Helen, and Apollo and Paris. Usually people say thay Helen was magically induced by Aphrodite to fall in love with Paris. But this is not how it works, because Aphrodite unites everyone in love, EVEN ZEUS HIMSELF:

"But of all others there is nothing among the blessed gods or among mortal men that has escaped Aphrodite. Even the heart of Zeus, who delights in thunder, is led astray by her; though he is greatest of all and has the lot of highest majesty, she beguiles even his wise heart whensoever she pleases, and mates him with mortal women, unknown to Hera, his sister and his wife, the grandest far in beauty among the deathless goddesses." First Homeric Hymm to Aphrodite.

Aphrodite is the one given the lot of uniting everyone. And she don't care if people are married or not, for example, according to a story recorded in Hesiod's Fragments, Aphrodite decided to punish Tyndareus for failing to worship her, by making all of his daughters unfaithful to their husbands (Clytemnestra, Timandra and Helen). So if Aphrodite desires, she can disrupt the marriages she herself estabilished as punishment. Aphrodite also don't care if one don't want to have sex, like Hippolytus, who made a vow to Artemis to be forever a virgin, and since he resisted Aphrodite, she decided to make his step-mother Phaedra fall in love with him. In Nonnus Dionysiaca, there is a short tale where Aphrodite decides to weave, and neglect her original work, and the entire world stopping feeling sexual desire, even animals and gods. Had she not returned to her duties the world would perish.

As for Paris killing Achilles with Apollo's help, a lot of people say Paris only accomplished this because the god helped... but that is the point of these stories! You can't be a archer without being blessed by the likes of Apollo and Artemis. Perseus can't kill Medusa without Athena and Hermes guiding Perseus hand until the very moment. Odysseus can't return home despite Poseidon without the aproval of Zeus and the other gods. You can't take the walls of Troy without aproval (Patroclus and Achilles tried at different moments to enter Troy only to die by Apollo intervention; but Epeius and Odysseus had sucess with the trojan horse when Athena gave her aproval). You can't claim your ability don't comes from the gods (Arachne) or that you can live despite the gods (Ajax the Lesser) or that you can conquer a city even if Zeus himself opposes it (Capaneus).

Mortals who try to do things against the wishes of the gods revealed in oracles; or mortals who claim to do things by themselves, without the gods, are hubristic, this is what hubris is. Without Apollo, or Athena, or any other god, no one would be able to do anything, because these gods inspire mortals. Pious mortals like Perseus, Hector and Odysseus are considered beloved by the gods because they don't challenge the gods. Hubristic mortals are hated by the gods and are a cautionary tale to not repeat the same mistake, because mortals can't rise above their station.

In modern media, the gods opposition to certain heroes is kept, but not their help. No wonder people tend to think they are a bunch of assholes, since their help to the heroes is often removed. As for the other thing I said, Zeus causes every rain, Aphrodite causes desire in everything, Poseidon decides what happens to every single ship, Apollo and Artemis blesses every archer, etc.

There is one billion gods and heroes that we know nothing about so Crius is not the only one. But for such a earlier figure, is bothers me so such he don't do anything aaaaa.

The lame answer is: "dude these titan gods are just genealogical links, get over it", but the cool answer is trying to think where they come from. A lot of these figures just survives in patronymic contexts. For example Cronus has a lot about him, but even if we had nothing he would still appear a lot just for being the father of Zeus, Poseidon and Hera who are called son of Cronus/daughter of Cronus all the time. In a similar manner, Hyperion is usually named in connection with Helios and Coeus with Leto, and Iapetus with Prometheus and Atlas.

But Hyperion is a allie of Cronus and he is also a name for the greek Sun God. Iapetus is named as a allie of Cronus quite often and his name is sinonymous with the titanomachy. Coeus like Iapetus is said to be imprisoned in Tartarus in sources here and there, and Ovid actually notices how Coeus is a nobody so even that is something.

But Crius? He don't even appear in a patronymic context, because his sons Atreus, Pallas and Perses are also obscure figures, so is rare to see them and even more rare to see they being named as son of Crius. He don't appear in any other context except as the name of a village Pausanias visited and believe to be in honor of Crius. The Bibliotheca says that all Cronus brothers except Oceanus helped him defeat Ouranos so that is something.

Crius name can also mean Ram, and since his descendants include wind and star gods, and also the goddess Hecate, he maybe be connected to the constelation of the Ram, but who knows. Percy Jackson makes him a god connected to stars, while Hercules Legendary Journeys connect him to winds because who knows? He is a jack of all trades at this point.

I decided to look the media where Helios and Apollo appear and separate them on how they choose to depict these two (the post is not meant to be a tierlist, I just had no idea what other graphic to use). Now, there is way more greek mythology adaptations that is not included either because I don't remember, I don't know or because it don't feature these two. Or it may feature Apollo as a background character but is not clear if he meant to be the sun god or not.

In Percy Jackson, Helios was technically not imprisoned by anyone, but he is confined to a place he can't leave. What is that if not a prison? And Blood of Zeus, Lore Olympus and Hercules Legendary Journeys depict Helios as a defeated titan god. That is pure titan prejudice, since Helios was one of the allies of Zeus, but just because he is a titan people put him in Tartarus. Heck Blood of Zeus even include Themis and Mnemosyne in Tartarus. You know, Justice and Memory? I think that whenever someone tries to adapt the titan gods they never do their research. Even Percy Jackson who is more accurate than most things insist that titans are not gods for example.

As for the media on the middle, they are right too, since when ancient authors talked about Apollo as the sun, he was meant to be the sun since always, not a god that replaced another, altrough this does leads to a chronological problem if your gods are meant to be more physical instead of philosophical. And it also leads to Apollo losing his chariot pulled by griffins.

But now I see how sad I am when is about me with modern media of mythology. Because Helios was always my favorite god but I never cared or even realised this whole thing about the two. But today I get immensely frustrated when Helios is relegated to the margins of myth in a adaptation (Selene too, altrough I don't see Artemis as the moon goddess as often as Apollo is the sun god, Selene appears even less than Helios but at the same time Artemis as a huntress goddess is above her status as a moon goddess in people's minds. Just look at Disney Hercules and Hades for example, in the first Artemis is not once said to be a moon goddess even through there is no Selene, while in the second she and Selene are different enough, while Apollo and Helios overlap so there was no need for the two in the same game. Same goes for Gow, where Helios is the sun god, but weapons and items involving Apollo is about fire or light so they were too close in overlapping, while Artemis is just a huntress goddess in Gow).

One thing that often happens in greek mythology is for the main villain to be defeated first and then be replaced by another villain or by his entire group, and I can think of four examples. One is Paris. He was killed by Philoctetes even before the trojan horse was built. Then his even worse brother Deiphobus became the villain in his place (while Helen loved Paris, she was forced to marry Deiphobus, who Quintus Smyrnaeus described as woman-obsessed), and Deiphobus was the last kill of the trojan war, killed by Menelaus, who killed him while Deiphobus was drunk and Menelaus wished he was killing Paris instead.

Another example is Antinous, the more loud of the suitor and the one with the plan to kill Telemachus, and the first to be killed by Odysseus... With the last enemy being Melanthius, one of Odysseus' slaves who took the side of the suitors.

Another example are Porphyrion and Alcyoneus, the kings of the Giants, and by the way that is told in the Bibliotheca, the first giants to be defeated. Later Heracles had to defeat the other remaining giants with the help of the gods.

Another example is the centauromachy described by Ovid. Where the worst centaur who started the whole mess, Eurytus, is the first to be killed by Pirithous, and the other centaurs have to be dealt with later.

Now if you know of more examples, please tell in the comments. And I think there is one more example, but is not as explicit as the cases above, and that is Cronus, but only in Hesiod Theogony, and the Orphics.

Now, according to Hesiod Theogony, Zeus defeated Cronus in the following manner: "great Cronus the wily was beguiled by the deep suggestions of Gaia, and brought up again his offspring, vanquished by the arts and might of his own son." So Gaia did something to help Zeus, while Zeus "vanquished" Cronus to free his siblings that had been swallowed by Cronus. And that is it, this is the last moment we see of Cronus in Hesiod Theogony. He is only named later with the titans imprisoned in Tartarus while Zeus fights Typhon.

In Orphism, Cronus is definility the first to be defeated. Zeus with the help of Nyx gives Cronus a potion that makes him regurgitate his siblings, and then he castrates Cronus (just like Cronus did with Ouranos) and throws Cronus into Tartarus. Later the Titans try to attack Zeus and baby Zagreus/Dionysus and Zeus destroys them with his thunderbolt.

Returning to Hesiod. If we suppose Cronus was defeated in the moment Zeus rescued his siblings, then who was the leader of the titans in his place? It was either Iapetus or Atlas. In Orphism above, it was definility Atlas as said by the Fabulae of "Hyginus". But Iapetus can be a candidate too. This titan god is often synonymous with the titan war as a whole (I already made a post about this once so I will avoid repeat here the things I already said), in Nonnus Dionysiaca, Zeus will name either Cronus or Iapetus as his greatest foes. And while Crius, Hyperion and Coeus are never mentioned again or only appear in specific circunstances, Iapetus appears often on the side of Cronus (Hesiod ask the Muse to sing about many things, including Iapetus and Cronus; and the Iliad names only these two in Tartarus, almost as if they are inseparable brothers, or Iapetus was Cronus right hand man).

Originally this post was gonna be only about Cronus, but since Apollodorus Bibliotheca and Aeschylus names Cronus as the king of the titans in the war itself, I realise this is not a strong argument as I first believed, since this only apply to the Orphics, and as I argue, maybe Hesiod, and maybe some lost work about the Titanomachy for the importance of Iapetus all things considered, as if either he or Atlas was the titan leader in Cronus absence (in the case he was indeed defeated first, something that cannot be confirmed with exception of the Orphics myths).

From time to time I see people still talking about if the sun god mentioned in Mutiny is Apollo or Helios. But the only reference to it by Jay clearly shows is Helios, this comes from one of the clips of thunder bringer that you can easily find in youtube.

As for why his name is not said in the music, is likely that is because he could not fit his name in the song, or there was no need to mention it. Tiresias and Anticleia name are also never said in the songs, we just known it is because is obvious, but only with Helios people don't think is obvious for some reason.

Also it don't help that in the Odyssey movie released just now they say Apollo as the name of the sun god, once more causing confusion about this. I hope at least that when people read the Odyssey they know is Helios, even if is just called the Sun God, he is the Son of Hyperion so that distinguish him from Apollo, called son of Zeus in the poem.

Minor spoilers for the Odyssey movie (and some other related greek mythology media).

Well well, once again Helios is replaced by Apollo even in a story that is about Helios. Like, the movie could just use the words Sun God as they often use in Odyssey translations. But nope, someone inserted the word Apollo there once. Is such a minor change that even the Mythology Guy noted in his review that it is a pointless change, since these gods don't appear anyway.

Some time ago I made a post about how Helios was villanized in Blood of Zeus season 3 as a defeated titan, because that is what is left to Helios nowdays. Either people put Apollo in his place and forgot about him, or he is a defeated "titan" that was replaced, forgotten or enslaved. Or he is a evil father like in Madeline Miller's Circe.

I don't have a problem with depicting Apollo as the sun god since that is not innacurate. But I do have a problem in putting Apollo in place of a Helios story like this movie, and I do have a problem when people want to have their cake and eat it too, making Apollo the sun god but also wanting to have Helios, so they will invent that one replaced the other, and this is innacurate (they say a similar thing in regards to Oceanus and Poseidon, forgotting that both sets of gods can coexist as they do in mythology). But in this case, why? Why say Apollo? But I know what happened. They read Sun God in their Odyssey translation, didn't think of Helios but Apollo, and that is it.

Now is already ruined, a new generation of people will think that Helios don't even exist in greek mythology, and unless they read the Odyssey, will now depict the Sun cows as Apollo in this story. If you think that is not the case, just remember how much Percy Jackson influenced the idea that Apollo replaced Helios as if that happened in mythology, instead of both coexisting.

Obs: explaining a joke defeats the point but the title is also a joke about how Helios literaly has to work everyday.

I am not one to defend Odysseus, but I will give this to him, after Achilles died, Odysseus basically speedrun the Trojan War to its conclusion.

For ten years, excluding only the last weeks, Achilles carried the Trojan War. He killed or defeated every single leader on the trojan side. He killed or defeated Poemander, Telephus, Tennes, Cycnus, Aeneas, conquered a hundred cities, then defeated Aeneas again, a bunch of other trojans, pissed off the river Scamander, then killed Hector, then defeated and killed Penthesileia the Amazon and Memmon the Aethiopian. And even Achilles death, according to Quintus, was basically deus ex machina: Apollo is tired of the hero hubris so he kills him with a arrow.

Then imediatly after that, Odysseus and Ajax the Great compete for Achilles armour. Odysseus wins in his arguments so Ajax kills himself after going mad.

So the greeks lost two of their biggest powerhouses, what now? When Achilles was alive, Odysseus purpose was to use tricks for the greeks advantage. Odysseus and Palamedes were the ones who used clever solutions. Now most people just know about Palamedes in relation to Odysseus, but if you scan a lot of sources, Palamedes was important in a lot of stories and he was even better than Odysseus. In the end, however, Odysseus is jealous and is able to trick the army that Palamedes is a traitor, or he and Diomedes just straight up drown Palamedes. In Fabulae, Odysseus reason to want him dead is because Palamedes had threatened Telemachus earlier to force Odysseus to go to the war.

After Achilles and Ajax dies, there is no one to guide the greeks. Agamemnon had been humbled when he realised how much they needed Achilles in the Iliad, and Menelaus was always a reserved guy. There is no more Palamedes either. So Odysseus decides to solve everything.

He captures the trojan seer Helenus and discover from him the things needed to take Troy. And then he goes and grabs all of them: He brings the bones of Pelops, he goes to Lemnos to convince Philoctetes to return to the army, and he goes to Skyros to recruit Neoptolemus. Then Philoctetes shoots his poison arrows at Paris, and Neoptolemus defeats the trojan allie Eurypylus. Then Odysseus again uses tricks to enter Troy as a wounded beggar and steal the statue of the Palladium.

Now the only thing he needs to do is to make sure the army enters in Troy and the Trojans will have nothing to save them. So he thinks of the Trojan Horse. Epeius builts it while Sinon convinces the trojans that the horse is a gift to Athena of the defeated greeks, while Odysseus, Menelaus and others are inside it. Then they open the gates of Troy while the trojans are asleep after the feast and Troy is sacked, with Odysseus and Menelaus killing Deiphobus and rescuing Helen.

So yeah Odysseus basically did everything important in these last weeks of the war.