u/UrsusofMichigan

"Once the Greeks had embraced the possibility of interacting with the dead, they took it to great lengths, invoking them for virtually any purpose, and especially to thwart the success of others with whom they were in competition. Perhaps this was a particularly Greek twist: in a culture that became increasingly agonistic in character as the city-state took its final form, new methods of gaining the upper hand in a matter—whether it be a love affair, an athletic competition, or something else—would always be welcome. So long as the sanctity of certain relationships between family members or xenoi were not damaged, there seems to have been little compunction about how one won life’s contests. If the dead could be pressed into service, so much the better.". --- The Restless Dead by Sarah Iles Johnston

I think this paragraph is critical. The Greeks were incredibly competitive - lawsuits, athletics, politics, and of course war. Everything was agon. Magic was just an extension of that.

The main transgression was attacking a family member, or breaking the sanctity of the guest-host relationship. But to the average Joe out there with whom you were in a rat race, you didn't owe much consideration.

This doesn't mean people went around using curse tablets for the slightest argument or smallest context. I'm not sure how easy it was to get lead tablets back then? But when the stakes were high enough, it's obvious some people did what they thought they needed to do to gain an advantage, and they thought themselves justified in doing so.

To the north, beneath the podium of a building dedicated to Apollo, archaeologists have uncovered a 655-square-metre structure containing basins and richly decorated with marble and wall paintings.

Its architectural plan has so far proved unusual in the Roman world, although researchers have drawn comparisons with monumental fountain complexes.

Greetings and welcome to everyone. If I am reading my mod tools correctly, we have over a 1000 people now.

Please familiarize yourself with the rules. This isn't your typical Hellenic forum. We're here to discuss Greco-Roman mysticism as revealed by the scholarly corpus.

Yes, that includes certain practices like curse tablets that may be generally frowned upon.

I have had to ban 2 people recently who didn't seem to understand their personal philosophical perspectives were not universal laws the rest of us had to adopt. Neoplatonism is one perspective among many, and not a default assumption to which everyone must adhere.

The rules are quite clear on this. Neither my co-moderator nor myself are going to change that. If anyone is uncomfortable with that, they are quite free to leave.

With that sentiment being fully expressed, I welcome everyone else and I look forward to good discussions.

Archaeologists believe the sanctuary may have been an ambulatory temple, consisting of a central sacred chamber surrounded by a covered walkway.

So-called low magic is frowned upon in Hellenism, and cursing/hexing is usually vilified. Make a post on curse tablets, you're guaranteed to get someone frothing at the mouth about how it's evil.

For those of us who engage in so-called low magic, what is your retort to the detractors?

A lot of times, it comes from a Platonic perspective. Plato said, in his ideal state, outlaw this, or execute that. Ok. Plato also didn't like democracy. Are we also outlawing democratic elections because Plato didn't think it was the ideal state? Is Plato the absolute last word on everything?

Other times, the criticism comes from a theurgic perspective. The goal is purification and communion with the divine and anything that deviates from that is beside the point. I get that perspective. But not everyone has theurgy as their life's goal, and for those that don't, low magic is not off the table.

Please understand I'm not trying to alienate Neoplatonists and Theurgists. I actually have respect for the philosophical traditions. I just don't necessarily agree with all of it and I don't think it deserves to be a default position that automatically silences alternative viewpoints.

To circle back, what are your replies to detractors who would shut down the conversation?

Between the Sacra Privita of the household and the Sacra Publica of the state, there were private organizations of religious worshippers, collegium or sodalitates. Some of these private cults were mystical in nature or at least had elements of mysticism.

Wandering mystics had a checkered reputation with Roman and Greek authorities, and Plato famously wanted to execute some of them. Yet, they existed because there was obviously a demand for them.

I firmly believe we need legitimate mystics to aid in revival of certain cults. But I realize there is a huge problem in vetting mystics who can serve ancient cults.

My position is that we don't need wandering mystics: the Internet brings people together. My position is that the mystics of the Greco-Roman tradition would need to be people who have studied the ancient forms scholastically as well as have personal experience in mysticism.

I co-moderate a community here on Reddit trying to bring such people together.I have found there is not a great number of us. Combining deep scholastic knowledge of ancient esoterica with a modern practice in mysticism is comparitively rare, it seems.

In any case, the point of this post is to solicit community commentary. Do you feel mystics are necessary to revival? If so, how would you vet them? What would you expect of someone who wants to lead a mystery rite to Bacchus, Isis, Mithras, etc? What would you expect of someone who claims to be a teacher of Orphism?

While digging at the site of a Roman villa about 200 miles east of Madrid in Spain, archaeologists from the University of Girona discovered a striking artifact that points to a similarly mysterious cult that existed in the area around 2,000 years ago. Pottery fragments featuring a handle crafted to resemble a two-headed snake suggest at least some locals dedicated themselves to the god Sabazios. While minor religious groups were common at the time, the deity’s location makes the find particularly interesting. The skyfather horseman Sabazios traces back to Thrace and Phrygia, regions located about 2,000 away, across present-day Turkey and the Balkans.

The inscription reads “FVLGVR SVBMANIVM,” a phrase referring to a lightning strike linked to Summanus, the Roman god of night lightning. The find offers rare evidence of how Romans marked places struck by lightning and treated them as sacred spaces.

In Neopagan and witchcraft circles, it's not uncommon to see "women's only spaces". Typically women who feel especially aggrieved by patriarchal politics erect these as safe spaces to keep out men, or at least cishet men.

Sadly, sometimes they attach goddesses to these spaces that were not gender exclusive historically. Diana and Hecate come immediately to mind. But for such people, history takes a backseat to modern politics, so no amount of saying "Hecate was not a woman's only goddess" seems to matter to them. 😫

It got me thinking, though. Historically there were a few gender exclusive cults. Bona Dea was only for women, and Mithraism was only for men

Do these gender specific cults have any relevance in today's worlds, particularly in the age of transitional surgery? At the very least, if these women's only spaces were dedicated to Bona Dea rather than Diana or Hecate, I wouldn't be kvetching since they have historical precedence.

Dear moderators,

I was wondering if the rules of the subreddit could be altered to specifically ban AI images.

There are many moral, political, and environmental reasons to ban AI art.

Practically speaking though, the main reason to ban it is that if it is allowed, AI slop quickly takes over a forum at the expense of actual discussion.

Thank you for your consideration.

Apollo (rendered in certain Greek dialects as Apollon) was one of the most widely worshipped deities in the Hellenic world. Some (cf Otto) called him "the most Greek of all deities."

Apollo's temples could be found from Asia Minor to Sicily. He was also worshipped as an an iconic cone outside the home or in the street. Finally, he is associated with sacred groves that were often on the outskirts of a city.

Apollo is not found in Linear B tablets. He seems to be a latecomer to the Pantheon. Several theories point to a Near Eastern and especially Anatolian origin. One of his epithets "Paean" is found in Linear B; Apollo might have been syncretized with an earlier Greek deity of healing.

Apollo's function in cult was largely of healing/purification and oracular prophecy. Disease was not just physical: it sometimes had a spiritual origin, thus requiring an oracle to deliver a spiritual solution. The god, in his oracular pronouncements, also came to be associated with laying the civil (i.e., legal) foundations for new colonies.

Apollo, as leader of the Muses, was also associated with music, dance and poetry. He was also associated with the bow. In certain areas of Greece, he was seen as the patron of young men and their education as they learned the cultural and martial abilities to join adulthood.

In 433 B.C.E., Apollo was brought to Rome in response to a plague after consultation with the prophetic Sibylline books. A temple to Apollo Medicus was built outside the pomerium, and for four centuries this was the only known temple to Apollo in Rome.

Four centuries later, Augustus took on Apollo as his special deity and built a new temple for him on the Palantine. This was reportedly a magnificent temple where the Senate sometimes met. And the Sibylline books were transferred there. As the early Roman Empire became Hellenized under Augustus, Apollo became associated with some of its poets.

Apollo also became increasingly syncretized to Helios/Sol in this era, and often depicted with solar imagery.

Apollo became syncretized to various Celtic deities in the western provinces. Most often, these hybrid Romano-Celtic deities had a pronounced healing function. Thermal healing baths were associated with some of these cults.

If online discourse is anything to go by, Apollo is most well known today as the god of poetry and fine arts and taken up most enthusiastically by those inclined to poetry and art. While this is not wrong, in the ancient world the emphasis would have been on healing and oracular prophecy. Through healing, he is a god of health professionals, and as law was tied to his oracular function, a god of the legal profession as well.

While "magic" was an ambivalent practice on the outskirts of Greco-Roman paganism, oracular prophecy was a widespread and respected practice. How we replicate that today and in particular how we vet the oracles are difficult questions to ask, but questions we should probably be asking.

Archaeological work recorded use from the Early Bronze Age through the medieval period. The main focus was a large round barrow later placed inside a Roman sacred enclosure.

Anyone read anything interesting?

Want to talk about your practice?

Have any questions?

Any developments in your spiritual life?

I recently joined a Norse kindred. It's not my primary focus obviously but I do worship Odin under the name Wodan or Mercury Hranno. And it's kind of good to just get off reddit and deal with adults in real space.

In modern worship, if social media is any evidence, Apollon is most well known as the patron of artsy types. That's fine of course. Music, poetry and art were part of his worship in Greece, and in Rome under Augustus he was strongly associated with poetry as well.

But for all that, as Jennifer Larson points out, most of his ancient cults were focused on oracular prophecy and purifying and protection. (These two things were often linked for it was felt sometimes impurity or disease had a spiritual cause which required a spiritual solution, and Apollon was the usual god to be consulted.).

This is all preface for my question. How many people here worship/honor/"work with" Apollon in his oracular aspect? And what does that actually look like for you?

There is a lot of debate in modern Hellenic Paganism about to what extent gods pay attention to you, if they send you dreams, how much they intercede in your affairs, and whether or not they care about humans/ love their followers.

Without rehashing those debates here, let me just say I think historically the best evidence for that sort of thing occurred in the Mystery religions. And of the Mystery religions, the best fit for what we described above was the cult of Isis.

Isis was seen as a benevolent savior goddess and often syncretized with Fortuna/Tyche. She was thought to protect the family, and especially women and children, and was insanely popular with women throughout the Roman Empire.

Her initiation rites may have involved periods of sexual abstinence, but she otherwise seemed friendly to notions of sexuality and her cult was popular with "courtesans." In other words, she might be described as sex positive.

And in the one surviving novel of the Roman Empire, Isis appears to the main character in a dream. She takes pity on his sufferings and promises him help in this life and the after life in exchange for his lifelong devotion.

So we have historically what a lot of people here seem to want - a kind savior figure who seems to care about the suffering of individual humans with a bit of mysticism and a little sex positivity. Again, she was insanely popular in the ancient world, and more than one scholar thinks she was a precursor to Mary worship.

But the Greco-Roman Isis seems barely known in modern classical paganism. And people do their damndest to try to make kind savior gods out of deities who never approached that historically.

So I am just curious, why the Greco-Roman Isis isn't more popular with the modern crowd. Is it just a matter of lack of knowledge among newbies, or is something else going on?

Title.

Thanks.

I would like to discuss Bacchus.

First, one must mention that within specifically Hellenic polytheism, Dionysus is extremely popular, perhaps the most popular deity with moderns. And many who don't consider themselves Hellenic pagans honor him as well alongside whatever faith or path they have.

In my experience, there are two reasons for this.

• Dionysus is seen a god of LGBTQ+ identities and rights, and is popular with those seeking a religious foundation for such identities and rights.
• Dionysus is widely seen a god of hedonism, and is popular with those looking for a religious foundation for hedonism, particularly those who were traumatized by a puritanical upbringing.

The two above seem especially popular with younger sorts who are still finding their place in life and their identities.

Now, let's talk about the Roman experience.

First, there is a deity known as Liber who is sometimes equated with Bacchus even though he retained his own cult. Liber was part of the Aventine Triad with Ceres and Libera (Prosperina). They were connected to the concerns of Rome's commoners, the plebians. I mention Liber in the interests of thoroughness, but my interests lay in the Bacchic cults of the empire.

We all know the Bacchic cults were severely restricted in the Middle Republic era for socio-political reasons. By the time of Julius Caesar, these restrictions seemed to have been relaxed if not completely lifted; I am a little unclear as to exactly what Caesar did. But by the time of the early empire the cult is back in full swing.

Robert Turcan's scholarship points out Bacchus and his retinue were extremely widespread in art on two different levels. One were mosaics and frescoes, especially those we find in wealthier villas. And the other was funerary art, such as sarcophagi.

We have an interesting dichotomy. Bacchus seems to be popular with the financially and socially mobile types of the Roman Empire. Turcan opines he may have been associated with various drinking clubs that these sorts were involved in. As for the funerary art, it is well known Bacchus had mysteries connected with the afterlife, at least some of which were what we label as Orphic.

This suggests a certain joie de vivre and opulence alongside a concern for one's status in the afterlife. Bacchus, being ever the god on contradictions, resolves these two things easily within himself. I am actually interested in both aspects - Bacchus as a god of wine and opulence (not that I'm rich, but I have a professional job and am certainly not poor); and Bacchus as the god of spiritual transcendence and afterlife mysteries.

Finally of course, Bacchus was the god of theater. However, the theater was never the cultural force it was in Rome that is was in Hellenic lands. Nonetheless, I personally adore the dramatic arts.

That is my take on Bacchus. Do you relate to Bacchus, and if so, how?