u/WrongDare666

This post will be a continuation to https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1souk5c/you_cant_support_breeding_and_claim_to_be_an/

In that post I've explained how supporting the forms of animal exploitation that involve animal breeding is incompatible with antinatalism and why antinatalists can't support it. I've briefly mentioned forms of animal exploitation that doesn't require animal breeding but didn't go into much detail. That's what this post is for. The main question that should be asked is this:

Is there an argument for antinatalism that does not apply to veganism?

When we talk about why natalism is wrong whether it's animal or human breeding we talk about consent, potential for suffering etc. but here is the thing. Doesn't the same things make animal exploitation immoral? Let's see some examples.

The consent argument:
It's wrong to procreate because you can't get informed consent from someone to bring them into existence. (AN)
It's wrong to exploit animals because you can't get informed consent from animals to exploit them. (Veganism)

Potential For Suffering and Harm:
It's wrong to procreate because you shouldn't subject someone to potential suffering/harm. (AN)
It's wrong to exploit animals because you shouldn't subject them to potential suffering/harm. (Veganism)

Preventing Suffering and Harm:
We should be against procreation to prevent harm and suffering. (AN)
We should be against animal exploitation to prevent harm and suffering. (Veganism)

Forced Existence:
It's wrong to procreate because it's wrong to force someone into existence. (AN)
It's wrong to exploit animals because it's wrong to force them into a slave existence. (Veganism)

Both are unwanted existences.

Do you have more examples and intellectually honest opinions about this? Let me know in the comment section.

I play v1.0 and it can have very weird map generation. I'm also sick of the electrical room not being generated. Any good map seeds?

Comrades this got out of hand. r/trolleyproblem now stands for anything but trolley problems. Red and Blue button fetishists and other weirdos have taken over the sub. We have to fight againt this by downvoting every single non-trolley problem post and posting trolley problems in r/redbuttonbluebutton. Remember the future of this subreddit is in your hands. Don't let them win!

Veganism is not a plant based diet it's an ethical stance against animal exploitation. Plant based however is the word that describes what's on your mind. So from now on this sub should use the term plant based when discussing climate issues. It's further explained in this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ClimateShitposting/comments/1t5i9hq/you_have_no_idea_about_what_veganism_is/

Ok I don't know if serious posts are allowed here but this will be one. I've been exposed to some posts here and clearly people here don't understand veganism. Like most people they think that veganism is a plant based diet. Wrong. Veganism is not a plant based diet it's an ethical stance against animal exploitation. Here is the original definition of veganism by it's creators.
"The word veganism shall mean the doctrine that humans should live without exploiting animals." (Veganism Defined 1951)
So veganism is not a set of practices like eating plants but being against animal exploitation in all ways. Because vegans reject the false idea that animals are objects, commodities or resources for human purposes and realize that animals are sentient individuals who exist for no one but themselves, they don't exploit or objectify animals. This obviously means that vegans don't exploit animals for entertainment, clothing, food or any other purpose. But defining veganism by one of it's symptoms which is not exploiting animals for food is misunderstanding it and saying that it's specifically a plant based diet is completely distorting it.

Now another problem with this sub is that you believe that people can be vegan for various reasons like the environment which is also false. Veganism is an ethical stance against animal exploitation so you can only be vegan for ethical reasons (obviously). So what this means is that veganism has nothing to do with environment and it's only goal is animal liberation. This is also explained in the same letters that defined veganism.

"A further point to notice is that this principle, this doctrine, is concerned with one matter only. A big matter, it is true, but a clearly defined one: the matter of the right relationship between humans and the animals."

So with that out of the way should everyone be vegan? Yes obviously. Animals don't exist for human purposes and no human has the moral right to use animals for their selfish purposes. It's ethically wrong to exploit animals and everyone should be vegan. But is this about the environment? No you can literally destroy the environment while being vegan. Palm oil, coffee, cars etc.

Stop exploiting animals and stop seeing animals as objects, commodities or resources for human purposes. Also stop using them as climate calculations you wouldn't say these things for other injustices like "we should stop supporting human slavery to make the climate better."

Any intellectually dishonest comments will be blocked. (my general rule)

Antinatalism is a philosophical stance against procreation. Pretty much all I see on this sub is complaining about capitalism and conditions. While capitalism can be relevant to antinatalism when every post is about capitalism you forget that this sub is about antinatalism and think that it's something more along the lines of r/antiwork. I don't see any philosophical argumentation that shows why procreation is inherently wrong like the consent argument. It's all just "9-5 so bad bruh". What would you do if there was no capitalism? Would you become a natalist? I really can't see a difference between this sub and the childfree sub.

If all humans adopted antinatalism how many years would it take for humans to go extinct?

Newborns are antinatalists too lol.

If you are someone who can think critically realizing that life has no inherent value takes as much time as realizing that abrahamic religions are bullshit. You are not on earth because of a pre-determined purpose. You are here because 2 stupid apes decided to fuck and you were thrown into existence as a result of it. All sentient life is a result of an accident called DNA that is as you know a result of evolution yada yada yada. Here is what you get wrong.

Meaning is just a concept not something that exists in reality: Meaning was never meant to be a real thing. So saying that life is meaningless is pretty silly (for being obvious) since meaning is merely WHAT someone sets out to do in life not HOW or WHY life exists. If you understand what I've just said you would understand that meaning is not something to be searched for in physical reality (it doesn't exist there) meaning is just what you decide to do with your life. It's a completely subjective goal you set for yourself not an objective thing that you discover.

Does this mean that you should reject meaning?
No, at least not necessarily. Life having no inherent meaning doesn't mean that you can't create your own meaning and living according to that goal. See meaning is a tool. It's a tool to change the world according to your beliefs and how you want it to be, or it can be just a tool to change your life to make it the way you want it to be. If you don't need that tool (meaning) that's fine you can throw it into the bin but you should know that without that tool it's almost impossible to create change. If you think that there is something wrong with this world for example suffering (which is an objective reality) you can create a subjective goal (meaning) to eliminate suffering. You can adapt this approach to pretty much every problem in life.

My point is that when you say life is meaningless you are missing the whole point. Meaning is not something that comes with life. It's something that you create.

EDIT: This post is for nihilists who say that meaning should be rejected because it doesn't exist in reality. Thanks for not being able to take the time to figure that out.

It can be a nightmarish experience to see animal exploitation wherever you go and realize that you are actually living among monsters, you are simply not their victim. Here are some things that helped me survive in this world:

1- Social Isolation: I know I know you have heard the saying "humans are social creatures!" yada yada yada. But be honest with yourself. Which is worse for your mental health? Being alone? or Being around people who exploit animals and see them as mere objects to be used?
It's better to be all alone than to be around a bunch of animal abusers. So my recommendation is that if you are living with people who support animal exploitation, leave that place and move to somewhere where you don't have to live with such people. (If you can ofc)

2- Safe Space: You should always have a place where you can go to with no animal exploiters or animal exploitation in it. This can be your home, your bedroom, hell it can be an abandoned place. (especially if you are homeless) Such a place will greatly help you stay sane and find an escape from this world even though it's temporary.

3- Don't expose yourself to too much animal exploitation: Ofc you can't really do this if you are an activist but if you are not I highly recommend you to block every content that supports animal exploitation. This process can be tiresome and annoying at the beginning but as you block more and more content you will see that your feed will become clearer and clearer. I use this in youtube because I use youtube to chill not to see horrid stuff. (Don't recommend this channel to me, I'm not interested in this content, Report etc.)

4- Find a Vegan Community: Don't underestimate the impact of finding people who can see what's wrong with this world and can emotionally connect with you. If you can find vegans who understand that animals don't exist to be used by humans and people are oppressors of animals, it can give you hope instead of succumbing to despair. You can share your struggles, help each other and stop yourself from going crazy because others can see the issue as well. Surround yourself with people who realize that animals are individuals who deserve to be free, not humans who see them and use them as objects for their selfish benefits.

5- Fight Against Oppression: Don't accept or condone animal oppression, be actively against it. This can range from direct action to activism to telling your family members or friends that animal exploitation is wrong and what they are doing is not ok. Write about animal exploitation, Create art against animal exploitation, Create content against animal exploitation, Let the world know that animal exploitation is wrong and they should stop oppressing animals. You don't have to be talented to do this you only have to spread the message. (End Animal Exploitation) You can literally go outside right now and write vegan messages in your city using chalks.

6- Help Animals: This can help a lot. If you have sanctuaries nearby volunteer for help. Ask them what you can do for them. There are also means to liberate animals but Reddit may cut me short before I tell you how you can do it. Basically if you see a chance to liberate animals, take it. Check out unoffensiveanimal on instagram to get inspirations.

7- No Injustice Lasts Forever: Animal exploitation will not last forever, worst case scenario it will end when humans go extinct. Maybe one day humanity will realize that animals don't exist to benefit them and they have no moral right to use them for their selfish benefits. So fight until that day comes. Be a voice for the ones who can't defend themselves, Fight against the false mindset that views animals as objects, commodities or resources to be use for human benefits and animal exploitation. Animals need you to stand against their oppression.

8- Justice Is Not A Debate: Veganism is not up for debate. No human has the right to use animals for their selfish ends. Don't try to debate veganism. Don't try to debate why it's wrong to exploit animals with psychopaths who don't care anything but their selfish benefits. Don't even entertain the idea that animals can be exploited for human benefits. Block/stay away from the people who are obviously complicit animal exploiters who think that oppressing animals is ok. Good people never arrive to the conclusion that exploiting animals is ok. Only talk with people who are honest and are willing to change their mindset and actions towards animals. Our job is not talking with selfish psychopaths who don't care about innocent beings.

9- Don't Blame Yourself For Other People's Actions: It's not your fault that someone is an animal exploiter. It's not your fault that someone is a selfish scumbag who don't care about animals. You are not guilty of other people's actions you are only responsible for yours. Find peace in the fact that you are not like them. Be glad that you are not selfish monsters like them but a good individual who cares about innocent beings who doesn't exploit them and stands up for them.