u/amazinglycuriousgal

I honestly don't know the best words to describe this scene, but Jalal was just so heartbroken here, perhaps even more than the 210 episode because here Jodha wasn't "exposed" yet, so Jalal was just so heavily conflicted 💔

P.S. This is from Episode 200, around 15 minute mark.

— xoxo, gossip girl 💋

I was trying to post some stuff on yesterday's fun post, but then, I was like “Damn, Hürrem would've them clutching their pearls every day lmao!!”, literally this girl broke a glass ceiling every.single.day!

Some of us on Tumblr still have been receiving "Hürrem is a witch" anon asks, btw!

Elsewhere in the world there was Anne Boleyn—Hürrem's contemporary and fellow "witch"— who was murdered today on May 19; Rest in peace and power, Anne and Hürrem— I hope both of you girlies are having a blast out there in heaven!

This Lazar person —as some of you guys might know— literally copied my reddit post for their academia article, once I called them out, they downvoted my post and immediately deleted their academia profile lmao 🤣 and if you see when this source was added to Wiki, it was right before I had called them out about a month ago, so just a PSA...

Like see, I'm not a historian, not even a history student by any official means (fwiw I'm a Finance/Accounting/Business student) and I just do this as a hobby and I merely want people to be aware of the authentic facts— but, at least don't make your “academic” slop by copying an Internet post on damn reddit lol and claiming it as your own research 😂

Like genuinely, there are plethora of people who post straight up misinformation and disinformation (often in bad faith), and these guys just copy it and claim it as academia? Wow 😳

Just read this heart-breaking 💔 extract taken from “Honoured by the Glory of Islam” by Marc David Baer which talks about the accession of Suleiman II after Mehmed IV's deposition— it had been agreed that a ~46 year old Mehmed IV was to be deposed and his half-brother Suleiman, who was merely 3.5 months younger than him, be enthroned instead.

Mehmed IV had expressed his wish for his son with his much-beloved Haseki Gülnuş— Mustafa (later Mustafa II who reigned from 1695-1703) to succeed him but Mehmed had been utterly disgraced at this point and well, they continued flouting even his orders, let alone fulfilling his ’wishes’, so that his half-brother was to succeed him, with his request being ignored:-

>“They established the throne at the Gate of Felicity and took a reluctant Suleiman from the cage.

>Like [his father] İbrahim (who years before had witnessed the first murder of a sultan in Ottoman history, the deposition of sultans, and the execution of his three brothers who had spent sixteen years locked in a room, and who feared for his life every time he heard footsteps in the hall), Suleiman was also terrified of being killed.

>He had refused to come out of his own accord. Told they did not come to frighten him or hurt him, but to make him sultan, he expressed doubt. He had been imprisoned for over forty years since childhood.

>Suleiman, completely breaking down from decades of anxiety about this very moment, asked whether they could possibly understand what it was like to spend a life in terror, or know "what is it for a soul to face what I faced."

>He concluded from his experience that "it is better to die at once than to die a little each and every day," and began to cry. As was the case for Mehmed IV nearly forty years before, Suleiman had nothing suitable to wear, so the eunuch put his own sable over his robe.”

Guys, so I wanted to wind this topic up with a final conclusion post tying up all loose ends to soundly establish that Hürrem's first-born children were in fact, boy-girl twins— Mehmed & Mihrümah who were born in September, 1522.

So, as of now, we know:

• Süleyman must've met Hürrem around November 1521 after losing 3 of his kids in rapid succession in the September-October 1521 small-pox pandemic.
• Mehmed was Hürrem's first son and was born in September 1522.
• Süleyman's first born kids of his reign were born around January 9, 1522— clearly couldn't have been born of Hürrem, as she had conceived for the first time around the time of their birth.
• It's well-known that Hürrem's second son, Selim was born on May 30, 1524— see, for reference, Süleyman's court chronicler, Celalzade Mustafa Çelebi's work, "Tabakat", 157a-157b.
• Hürrem's third son, Abdullah was born on September 14, 1525.

Now, the first surviving letter of Hürrem to Süleyman was penned in the early months of the 1526 Mohaçs expedition, probably around July, 1526— and, it was in fact, apparently on Süleyman's insistence and *tantrums* that Hürrem started writing to him (and even then he would tease her for not writing more and more to him!), anyways from these letters, the existence of their 4 kids can be established:

>“...my sultan, this [much] should suffice for now, my soul is too affected [to write more to you]—especially as your humble servant and son Mir Mehmed and your concubine and daughter Mihrümah are overcome with sorrow and weep and wail from missing you whenever your noble letters are read aloud.

>Their weeping has driven me to distraction; indeed, it is as if a funeral mourning were taking place amongst us! My Sultan, your humble servant Mir Mehmed, your concubine Mihrümah, along with Selim Han, and Abdullah—offer you their manifold salutations and press their faces on the holy dust beneath your feet.”

It appears that Süleyman had taken his oldest surviving son, 9 year old Mustafa to a part of the initial journey on the way to the campaign and then sent him back to the capital and at this time, Hürrem wrote this towards the end of her letter:

>“Furthermore, my Sultan, [O you who are my darling and] the part of my very soul —should you send greetings to Sultan Mustafa, please send this letter of mine alongwith [yours] as well.”

Another letter from Hürrem was sent to Süleyman (Mustafa had made it back to the capital at this point) and this letter must've dated around early September 1526 shortly after Süleyman had won the Mohaçs expedition on August 29, 1526 and had immediately apprised Hafsa and Hürrem of the good news via his letters (as the Venetians reported), Hürrem wrote the following towards the end of her letter:

>“...Furthermore, Mustafa, your humble servant, along with Mir Mehmed, your servant; Mihrümah, your concubine; and Selim Han and Abdullah, your servants, offer praises unto Your Highness and press their faces against your blessed slippers.”

So, Mihrümah must've been born by May 1526 at the utmost latest when Süleyman went to his 3rd military campaign— so between the births of her three sons starting from September, 1522— only one possible year of Mihrümah's birth remains, if she was a born as a result of a singleton birth: 1523.

Historian Kaya Şahin too had stated Mihrümah's birth to have taken place in 1523 as well— however, it's clear that she couldn't have been born in 1523 because:

• Süleyman was away from the capital on his 3rd military expedition from mid-June, 1522 and he only came back to the capital (where Hürrem was) by early February, 1523.
• Thereafter, since Selim was born on May 30, 1524, Hürrem would've conceived him around August/September, 1523, i.e., within 6 months of Süleyman's arrival— so that, there's no time for conception and birth of Mihrümah in 1523 as well.

Also, if you notice Hürrem appears to have arranged the kids in order of seniority (and unrelated, but I suspect that Hürrem had somewhat of an OCD and she herself admitted that she was a perfectionist lol, anyways), so even that is an interesting little clue as to Mihrümah having been older than Selim and Abdullah, but younger than Mustafa and Mehmed.

Besides, it's interesting that Hürrem clubbed her son and daughter together in her letters— like moms often do with their twins lol, “like Mehmed & Mihrümah are doing this and that”, “this duo has driven me crazy”, etc.

All of this extensive and exhaustive reasoning and pieces of evidence presented in the previous posts and this one— prove that the only time Mihrümah could've been born was as a twin to her brother, Mehmed.

Hence, Hürrem Sultan's first-born children were boy-girl twins, Mehmed & Mihrümah born around early-to-mid September, 1522.

Like here I'm rethinking, updating and confirming everything I write multiple times (and that's why I haven't replied to some of you guys' questions even now, besides that I was studying for tests and exams, so apologies, please know that I'm not ignoring you!) because I NEVER wish to be the source of wrong and/or obsolete information 🫠 and it's damn Reddit lol, not actual academia and still I'm so very scrupulous 😭

ETA: I mean genuinely, it's extremely okay not to know stuff (there's just infinite information and we can only know so much, especially as beginners and new enthusiasts), just don't claim something which you clearly don't know about— it's a very common pattern I have seen with quite some people and I'm just...baffled.

I mean yes, they had been thoroughly brainwashed and conditioned since they're kids, but that doesn't preclude such young girls from having internal conflicts with how they're conditioned, especially when they're living the experience of putting themselves in mortal danger for birthing kids for the Empire they're enslaved by.

That too, in the cases of Hürrem, Safiye, Kösem and Gülnuş — who were the most reproductively prolific Imperial concubine mothers, who had little freewill otherwise:(

They barely (if at all?) acknowledged in the series how pregnancies must've taken a genuine toll on the mental, psychological and physical health of these young girls— and, I imagine more than anything, they must've been terribly afraid of what would befall their son(s) in the event of their death whenever they're pregnant again (as during the SoW era, it almost existentially mattered who your mother was after all, but of course, Hürrem didn't know this yet...)

It's a general piece of advice from what I'm aware that there must be at least 18 months of gap in between consecutive pregnancies and, just see for yourselves how it must've been like particularly for these 4 ladies...

I just utterly despised how they portrayed Hurrem in the series like she was basically salivating at the thought of pregnancies and children— what a creepy way to dismiss and diminish the feelings and conflicts of these young slave girls who didn't have any choice whatsoever.

I wonder if these young concubines compared their experiences of pregnancies and childbirth with those of the blue-blooded Imperial Princesses who in a polarly opposite fashion were the "masters" of their husbands, instead!

Of course, even among princesses, there were many who had many kids (5 or more) and from what I've seen— Hürrem's three grand-daughters, Hümaşah (b. August? 1543), İsmihan (b. early 1544) and Ayşe (b. August 25/26, 1547) hold the record for "the most kids birthed by Ottoman Princesses" as all of them had 10 kids each, but the fact is, it was their discretionary choice to do so, unlike their concubinal counterparts.

[The above extract is from American Historian Leslie Peirce's Empress of the East book and indeed, Süleyman had commenced his sex life from 1513 onwards, so that he was an 18 year old.]

In no particular order.

Honorable mentions: Mahabharat, YRKKH, Balika Vadhu

I came across a very interesting Venetian ambassadorial news dispatch that mentioned Hürrem's involvement in international trade and business and apparently, her son-in-law, Rüstem Paşa— who possessed remarkable financial acumen and savviness—helped her in managing the same.

For instance, one of her partnerships: in 1554, the Venetian merchant and widely regarded Oriental Expert, Andrea/Antonio Priuli (d. 1557)* had begun trading in partnership with Hürrem Sultan.

Antonio was a key figure in these mercantile operations and was the contact person for the Serenissima, (i.e., the Venetian State) in the East and for the Porte and had previously managed to get the Sublime Porte closer to Venice alongside the bailo Giacomo da Canal, Lorenzo Gritti, Pietro Zen and Tommaso Contarini—each with their own expertise— had advanced negotiations with the Sublime Porte until they succeeded in convincing it to conclude the peace, which was made official on October 2, 1540, in the presence of the extraordinary ambassador Alvise Badoer)

The diplomatic dispatches document their connection, established through her son-in-law, Grand Vizier, Rüstem Paşa as well as a broader network of intermediaries and agents which even involved the residential Venetian ambassador:

>"She [Kira?] then told me that the Sultana [Hürrem] was negotiating a certain grain deal here with Mr. Antonio di Priuli, and she [Kira] requested that I instruct him to pay her [Hürrem] at least two aspers more per kilo than he [Priuli] intended to offer—for she knew that, in this matter, my word would carry weight and Priuli would act accordingly.

>I replied that I was eager to do whatever might please Her Magnificent Majesty; however, regarding such matters—which merchants conduct for profit and for no other reason—I could not issue commands, though I could certainly offer persuasion, which I would do.

>Her Magnificence appeared satisfied, and she communicated nothing further to me." — News Dispatch by Venetian ambassador, Domenico Trevisano dated July 6, 1554

*Even Süleyman is documented to have helped his wife's business/trading partner, Andrea— for instance, in relation to the settlement of the latter's family financial debt-credit matter:

>“Both Franks and Ottoman subjects rushed to the qadi to have their debts registered. Andrea himself tried to certify one of Marco’s [Andrea's relative's] credits left in Aleppo, but found no Muslims still able to bear witness to that transaction. The sultan [Süleyman] intervened by sending orders to a qadi of Damascus to have some old credits certified, such as one owed by Marco to a certain Abū Jum’a al-Maghrebī.” — ’You cannot produce a Muslim witness’: Early Ottoman attitudes towards Proof and Religious difference

**This "she" was presumably Hürrem's second kira— the most famous Kira, in fact and also, much beloved and philanthropic, Esther Handali [the first was Strongilah (d. 1548), who had also served her mother-in-law, Hafsa from around 1520s, possibly even 1510s]—who also served her daughter, Mihrümah (d. 1578) and then, Nurbanu (d. 1583) and after Nurbanu's death, Safiye before she died in 1588 and later, Safiye had another kira, the infamous Esperanza Malchi.

More about the Priulis:

• The House of Priulis was a prominent aristocratic family in the Republic of Venice who had entered the Venetian nobility early in the 14th century.
• During the 16th century, the family, like many Venetian patricians, moved to diversify their wealth by investing heavily in property on the Venetian Mainland, often engaging in agricultural production and land development.
• Thus, the Priulis were part of the Venetian patriciate, which, unlike traditional feudal nobility, built its power on mercantile activity and accumulated vast wealth through maritime commerce, particularly with the East (Levant trade).
• They were engaged in the high-stakes, competitive Mediterranean trade that persisted despite increased competition from foreign merchants and the Ottoman Empire (the Sublime Porte).
• As with other leading houses, the Priulis served in the Maggior Consiglio (i.e., Great Council) and held key administrative, military, and diplomatic positions, overseeing the transition of the Venetian economy from maritime trade to land-based investments.
• They were active participants in the cultural life of the city, potentially funding art, music, and commissioning portraits to solidify their status, mirroring the actions of other prominent families like the Zantani or Pisani.
• Records show that as of April 22, 1544, a group of Venetian noblemen, including Marc-Antonio and Zuane Priuli (sons of Andrea), as well as individuals named Andrea Malipiero and Andrea Marcello, were involved in shipping ventures, such as the ownership or operation of ships like the Priula (active during 1545–1547).
• Around the 1540s and particularly 1550s, Venetian merchants were adapting to a shifting economic landscape where private, risk-sharing partnerships (like the one associated with the Priuli name) were replacing the traditional state-run mude (convoy) system.
• The decade of 1550s was a high point for the family, marked by top-tier political leadership and significant investments in both Venetian palaces and mainland (Terraferma) estates and the Priuli family thus became all the more of a prominent, wealthy, and powerful noble house in the Republic of Venice, and even moreso integral to the city-state's patrician oligarchy.
• The consecutive reigns of brothers Lorenzo Priuli (r. 1556–1559) and Girolamo Priuli (r. 1559–1567) as the 82nd and 83rd Doges of Venice—highlighted the absolute dominance of a few elite patrician families in the Venetian government, of which Priulis reigned supreme at the time— thus the family reached the pinnacle of political power during these reigns.

So, someone was asking about Hürrem's young age when she was presented to Süleyman, and I have discussed it before but briefly, Hürrem was but ~14 having been born around mid-1507 when she was gifted to a 26 year old Süleyman around November, 1521 (he was actually born in October/November, 1495) by his cousin Princess Hançerli Fatma Sultan— so that they had an age-gap of over 11 years.

I was replying to u/Separate_Magician_89, but it got quite long, so here is a follow-up:

Disappointingly, that's how the social and cultural norms were back then— though I won't term it as *ephebophilia*, as it wasn't a primary/characteristic pattern of sexual interest displayed by Süleyman. (And, for what it's worth, Süleyman was presumably even more in love with and attracted to a 50 year old Hürrem, than he was to her 15 year old self).

Pretty much every male Sultan (prince or ruler) I have read about, whatever their age was (even in their 50s!), was gifted teenaged girls as potential sexual concubines, so it was the accepted custom back then (and not just amongst the Ottomans, as we know).

Does it make sense? To illustrate, how they must've perceived say an 18 year old girl being with even a 35 year old guy back then was in today's pov, equivalent to say, a 28 year old woman being with a 40 year old man.

In their eyes, a 14 yo girl wasn't a child like we know today (though, I do sense a lament in Süleyman's verse here that she isn't older), but a sufficiently grown-up young lady having received much training and education to become the mother of a prince, (a potential "Shadow of God on Earth"), that's why I was so put-off by MC depicting Hurrem falling in love with him at the first sight and then, dying to have sex with Suleiman (especially given how they had a 25 yo Süleyman played by a 45ish year old actor)🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

If it were up to me, I would've tried to portray as much in tandem with history as possible— and definitely never would I have shown a 14 yo Hürrem to have fallen in love with a 26 yo Süleyman (even when he looked like 5 years younger) at the first sight or even for their initial years at least, like sure she must've found him charming, handsome etc. (like Peirce too had mentioned, Süleyman was apparently "a prince easy to fall in love with") and what not, but Hürrem was evidently an extraordinarily intelligent and very politically-shrewd gal from the outset and falling in love with a man with whom you're supposed to be there for merely some weeks or so is utterly nonsensical.

Once Mehmed and Mihrümah were born to her in September, 1522 for Hürrem, they were her everything, because her sexual tenure had ended as per the harem "norm"/"custom" of "one-son-per-concubine" (and amongst the Ottomans, these customs were essentially equivalent to codified law).

Besides, Hürrem didn't know what would become of her— Hürrem didn't have a Hürrem Sultan to look up to, we need to keep that in mind front and centre!

And, then add to it the greater uncertainity she was engulfed by since the time she became a part of Süleyman's harem around November, 1521— in the immediate aftermath of Süleyman's 3 kids having died in the September-October small-pox pandemic leaving only one son (Mustafa) of about 4 years old alive.

Then, scarcely about 1 or 2 months later (around January 9, 1522), two different women gave birth to two sons of Süleyman within a few days of each other.

At this point, there was no pattern or even a semblance/inkling of a thought that Süleyman would do what he did— so, to retrospectively portray Hürrem as having known how Süleyman's relationship with her would transpire eventually is utterly ignorant and plainly idiotic, to say nothing about butchering of history.

Like, just imagine from Hürrem's perspective, when Süleyman would leave far away for Rhodes in mid-June, 1522, only returning nearly 9 months later, they were together for only about 6-7 months (and Hürrem got pregnant within 3 months of them being together).

How the hell would she have known that his unprecedented "eyes, body and soul only for you since I laid mine eyes on you" behaviour would've continued?!

Süleyman had demonstrated himself to be a very promiscuous man (like every other Ottoman Prince or Ruler and he was a young Emperor with hundreds of "nubile" beauties at his disposal) before having met Hürrem and the "proof" was right there with the two kids born, when she herself fell pregnant.

Her post-partum period with Süleyman having been away on the prolonged 1522 Rhodes campaign (the risk of dying in a war is always there, however minimal) + the rampant pandemics of small-pox and plague killing many many people and indeed the deaths of 3 royal children in the past year must've thoroughly haunted her and everyone else— Süleyman must've been the last thought in a 15 year old Hürrem's mind, if at all— at least during this sensitive period.

In fact, reportedly, a 5 yo Mustafa himself apparently caught small-pox in late October, 1522 and nearly died; those other two sons born in January, 1522 also died by February, 1523.

The series should've shown that Hürrem didn't really care about Süleyman initially, and make it a slow-burn romance from her side and until then, she is merely using Süleyman for her and her kids' advantage as she should, frankly (it was in fact on Süleyman's insistence and *tantrums*, that Hürrem started writing letters to him lol, as 1526 was the first time they had been apart since Süleyman arrived after the Rhodes campaign by early February, 1523).

Anyways, I believe during the course of their over 36 years together, Hürrem must've developed considerable genuine affection for her husband, if not outright true love after their few initial years— like this erstwhile much-promiscuous man effectively equalised the power-imbalance between them as much as he could, crowning her as the Empress of the Ottomans— indeed the only one in its entire 6.25 centuries of existence; allowing her to use the royal prerogative title of "Şah", an exclusive mark of Sovereignty, which no woman preceding or succeeding Hürrem, even her own Princess daughter was bestowed upon.

It's hard to believe that she was so masterfully faking it until the very end after nearly 4 decades together — notably during her last years (after he came back to the capital in August, 1555), she reportedly "wouldn't allow" Süleyman to be away from her for a moment (and with Mustafa dead, I don't think she had a primarily ulterior motive here to keep him with her as had been the case after Mehmed's death until Mustafa's execution almost 10 years later— during the course of which she indeed must've been afraid that all her sons and grandsons would end up murdered, should Süleyman die...)

All in all, I don't think any concubine generally was either like "idgaf about the Sultan", simply because they had been consistently conditioned and brainwashed for many foundational years on end since they're kids that these Sultans were some super-humans and they're bestowing favour upon them by picking them— an utterly insignificant slave girl; or simultaneously, I don't think any concubine (generally) was falling in love with their masters like MC portrayed🫠🤦🏻‍♀️ They had to portray their mid looking Sultans being a sex magnet though 🧲

So, a concubine's feelings for her master was I believe, generally of gratefulness (especially if they're Hasekis) and at least some degree of care I suppose— aside from the absolute respect and fear that are expected of her because of the power-imbalance.

But, if any concubine must've genuinely fallen in love (as much as it appears feasible) with her Sultanaic Consort over the course of her life, it must've been undoubtedly Hürrem. So, that's my take.