A Game Theory Understanding of Lobby Wiping
▲ 102 r/LowSodiumMarathon+1 crossposts

A Game Theory Understanding of Lobby Wiping

No AI was used to create this post. Verify for yourself here.

This is a long post. If you are not interested/willing to read a long post, you should just ignore this.

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I made a post last week making two suggestions that I framed as addressing the problem of post-wipe lobbies being boring, but actually arose from a game theory understanding of why lobby wiping occurs and an attempt to address one of those causes. The reaction to this post was mixed to say the least, but mostly focused on the stated motivation for the suggestions rather than the suggestions themselves.

I (perhaps foolishly) hope that a more satisfying discussion can be had around the mechanics of the problem itself, separate from any solutions I might suggest for it.

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What is Lobby Wiping?

It is worth establishing what we are talking about before getting into the details. I think there are a couple of different understandings of the term that are active in discussions around this. These are:

  • players infiling with the intention of finding and killing all other players in the lobby and then being able to do so;
  • the observed phenomonon in which only one team survives to exfil from the map.

I often see people assert that the former understanding is something which rarely is actually in effect, and while I disagree, it is ultimately not important as it is the second condition which actually matters, and which very much is typically in effect (though not exclusively). The second understanding is what I think many find problematic, though the first understanding is a factor in the second arising. Even when not infiling with the specific intention to find and kill all other players in the lobby, the game design results in most players making moment-to-moment choices that result in behavior that is essentially indistinguishable from their operating under the first understanding.

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Is It a Problem?

Based on the feedback of many people on Reddit, Steam, YouTube, and even conversation in game, I think the answer is an obvious 'yes.' Though it is probably worthwhile to actually state why:

  • There are real consequences in the form of lost resources and time when a player gets wiped.
  • Players able to repeatedly wipe lobbies enjoy benefits in terms of resources and successful practice which enhances their ability to conduct lobby wipes in the future by being both better equiped and more skilled (from practice). The inverse effect applies to those repeatedly wiped.
  • Repeated and frequent losses are frustrating and demoralizing, which can result in some players playing less or not at all, which has the effect of making the game's lobbies on average more difficult.

It is also worth mentioning that it is very often brought up that in games like Escape from Tarkov and Arc Raiders, lobby wiping is not an issue in large part because it does not frequently happen (leaving the 'why' it doesn't in those other games for another day, another post).

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An Outline of the Why

While I'm going to break both of these out into more detail there are essentially two conditions which make lobby wiping prevalent:

  1. It is possible and practical to wipe the lobby.
  2. It is more desireable to attempt to wipe the lobby than engage in any alternative approach.

The only way 'lobby wiping' becomes less prevalent is if one of those two conditions changes.

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'Possible and Practical'

Given that lobby wiping does happen, it should be obvious that it is possible to do so, but 'practical' deserves some additional explanation. While it will (functionally) never be impossible to prevent lobby wiping from occurring, it is the combination of the facts that: (a) players have access to sufficient information to reliably locate the other players, (b) are able to move to those locations quickly enough for the information to be of use, and (c) possess enough combat resources to engage and eliminate other players repeatedly until there are no other remaining players.

It is the combination of those three facts that make it 'practical', and if any of those three facts became untrue, 'lobby wiping' would no longer become a 'practical' strategy.

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'More Desireable'

The rest of this post lays out a game theory model justifying the assertion that it is more desireable to attempt to wipe the lobby (or engage in behavior that gives essentially the same result regardless of intention), than to engage in any alternative approach.

At the very end is a brief description of how to change this, in terms of the game theory model.

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Game Theory Model

From a game theory perspective we can expect players to behave however they think best improves their match outcome (utility) with respect to their objective.

We'll define objective loosely as either completion of a priority contract, or a full bag of high quality loot (secured either from other players, a map's central loot cache, or from a key room). Partial completion of their objective is possible in the form of standard contract completions and/or a bag partially filled with high quality loot or fully filled with low quality loot.

We'll assess utility for the possible failure/success outcomes as follows:

  • Failure
    • A loss (wipe) results in negative utility from lost gear/time as well as the negative emotions associated with it (-4).
      • This negative utility may be offset by the completion of standard contracts which did not require exfil (-3).
      • This negative utility may be offset by an absence of the negative associated emotions when players have been on a winning streak, have a well stocked vault, or otherwise are unbothered by the loss, though the loss of gear/time is still relevant (-2).
  • Success
    • An exfil without having completed their objective results in no positive or negative utility, as they did not lose their gear but have not benefited from the run either (+0).
    • An exfil with a partially completed objective results in marginal positive utility, as they did not lose their gear but have only mildly benefitted from the run (+1).
    • An exfil with a completed objective results in positive utility (+3).

Players have essentially six broad options for how to behave at any given moment during a run:

  • Passivity
    • Includes waiting, hiding, laying an ambush/preparing a defense, and passive information gathering (sitting and listening/watching)
  • Maneuver
  • Looting
  • Engage in PvE
  • Engage in PvP
    • Includes actual combat (whether as aggressor or defender) as well as active information gathering (Thief Drone, TADs, Sentinel, Assassin Invis Scouting)
  • Attempt to Exfil

Players' will decide between these options based on how they expect each option to impact their final expected Utility (outcome). While that consideration is complex we'll attempt to fit it into the following specific impacts:

  • Detectability - seek to minimize
    • the degree to which players are detectable to other players, included location as well as status/condition, and activity.
  • Intel - seek to maximize
    • information players acquire about other players' location, status/condition, and activity.
  • Vulnerability- seek to minimize.
    • the degree to which players are prepared/unprepared for combat. Low health/shields and looting corresponds to high vulnerability, full health/shields and presighted on attack vectors corresponds to low vilnerability.
  • Threat - seek to minimize.
    • the total amount of threat posed to players both in aggregate and at present. Enemy players present in the lobby contribute to aggregate threat. Enemy players in the vicinity of a player contribute to present threat. At this time PvE enemies are only regarded as a threat indirectly as engaging with them results in increased Detectability and Vulnerability.
  • Expected Utility - seek to maximize.
    • The utility arising from Failure/Success outcomes.

There are some other factors which influence decision making that are worth mentioning: time remaining, players' remaining combat resources (ammo, heals, equipment, consumables), and players' confidence about their ability to win in a PvP encounter. These primarily exert influence by changing players' predictions about the impacts of a given behavior.

We can distill all of this down to the behavior/impact matrix shown below.

Behavior Detectability Intel Vulnerability Threat Expected Utility
Passivity ↓↓ ↓↓ - -
Maneuver - -
Looting - ↑↑ -
Engage in PvE ↑↑↑ - ↑↑↑ - -
Engage in PvP (Lose) - - - - ↓↓↓
Engage in PvP (Win) ↑↑↑ ↑↑↑ -
Attempt Exfil ↑↑ - -

While not captured in the above matrix, successful Exfils reduce the amount of Threat on the remaining players in the lobby. Additionally, players not involved in PvP encounters also benefit from reduced Threat at the conclusion of the PvP encounter (assuming one of the teams was eliminated).

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Player Behavior Decision-making Modeled

Engaging in PvP is the primary source of risk of a Failure outcome, however the degree of risk is different between four distinct modes of Engaging in PvP. In ascending order by risk: (1) as the aggressor, against an unaware and unprepared defender, (2) as the aggressor, against an aware and prepared defender, (3) as an aware and prepared defender, and (4) as an unaware and unprepared defender.

High Intel, and low Detectability and Vulnerability are directly correlated with lower risk values for the modes of Engaging in PvP.

While Threat exists, decreases to Intel and increases to Detectability and Vulnerability are associated with an increased likelihood of PvP that caries a higher risk of a loss, and therefore are associated with lower Expected Utility.

While Threat exists, increases to Intel and decreases to Detectability and Vulnerability are associated with an increased likelihood of PvP that caries a lower risk of a loss, and therefore associated with higher Expected Utility.

Players' only options to increase Expected Utility also directly increase Detectability and Vulnerability, which are impacts directly associated with reduced Expected Utility while Threat is present. This means that until Threat is reduced or eliminated there are NO behaviors available to the player which increase (or meaningfully increase) Expected Utility. Players' must reduce Threat as a prerequisite to increasing Expected Utility.

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Specific Player Behavior Predictions

Players will prefer to to engage in Passivity and Maneuvering to all other behaviors until Threat is reduced, as these behaviors provide Intel.

Looting which does not require engaging in PvE will be less prefered while Threat remains, but may still be pursued by players who do not feel confident in their ability to successfully engage in PvP. The same is true for Attempting to Exfil.

Engaging in PvE will be strongly disprefered so long as Threat remains as its impacts are only associated with reduced Expected Utility while Threat is present. While Threat remains a factor, the only instances in which players will actively decide to engage in PvE is when doing so is a necessary prerequisite to Manuevering, Looting, and/or Attempting to Exfil and when Passivity is no longer viable.

Due to risk of a Failure outcome inherent to Engaging in PvP, players will be cautious about these engagements and may actively avoid them until such time as they can maximize the likelihood they will be able to Engage in PvP using the least risky mode (as an aggressor, against an unaware and unprepared defender).

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How to Change This

Given that Engaging in PvP is also the primary source of risk of a Failure outcome, the decision to repeatedly engage in this behavior only makes sense in the context of this behavior's ability to reduce Threat permanently and ultimately entirely.

If the capacity of this behavior to permanently and/or completely reduce Threat were curtailed or eliminated, players would choose to engage in PvP less frequently in accordance with its perceived risk, and no longer defer those behaviors which do directly increase Expected Utility in favor of Engaging in PvP first. Players would be expected to make decisions around Engaging in PvP similarly to how they make decisions about Engaging in PvE while Threat is present, as a instrumental task necessary to their terminal goal of maximizing Expected Utility but which carries with it significant risk downsides that cannot be avoided.

u/flGovEmployee — 3 days ago

Consensus Build for the Impact H-AR?

What do people feel are the best mods for the H-AR?

It's felt good to me with the Steady Rounds mag and Far Reach optic, but I'm undecided about the foregrip.

What should I be running on it?

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 5 days ago
▲ 16 r/LowSodiumMarathon+2 crossposts

One of the Problems with Lobby Wiping and a Possible Solution

TL;DR: Sorry this is so long, in short the suggestion boils down to a better (and more vengeful) Rook experience and new higher difficulty PvE enemies that only appear when a lobby has been wiped.

You can skip to the bottom and just read the first and second 'Prong' sections if you are only interested in the suggestion. The problem attempting to be addressed here is NOT that lobby wiping happens, but that it results in a boring experience for the lobby wipers, as well as giving players who were just wiped another way with even more reason to hop back in (as a Rook).

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While there are a number of problems that arise from the current Lobby Wiping meta, the primary one I'm taking target of with this post is that the post-wipe lobby tends to be static, boring, and easy for the wiping team. This problem is likely also a contributing factor in the relatively sparse loot availability on the maps as otherwise the lobby wiping team would be getting outrageously looted every run. This loot sparsity also contributes to making the rewards available for accomplishing a lobby wipe often disappointing meaning only players that can regularly pull off a lobby wipe are regularly able to come away from a run with a real sense of reward but even they are coming away from a lot of runs disappointed with their loot. For players who are rarely able to pull off a lobby wipe, there is a sizeable chance the actual rewards available to them for doing so will be underwhelming, resulting in what should have been a highly rewarding run breaking up a series of unrewarding, wiped runs ends up landing flat and leaving them feeling like playing the game for them is all stick and no carrot.

A Contrast Between Seasons

As someone who did a lot of lobby wiping in Season 1 and still does a lot in Season 2, the most significant change I've noticed between the Seasons is what happens after the wipe. In Season 1, it would either take you long enough to pull off the wipe most of the time that there was only a little time left over in which to do some of the available PvE activities or Contract objectives or loot caches. If you did manage to pull off a lobby wipe early in the run it meant you were going to see a lot of Rooks, even all the way up to the end of the season.

Overall the amount of reward you received relative to the effort of pulling off the lobby wipe felt good, but you either still had too little time to fully exhaust the possible rewards (loot/objectives left behind for time) leaving you wanting more, or still faced significant risk from an unknown number of Rooks who would appear at unpredictable times and from unpredictable directions, maintaining a sense of tension and risk that kept things compelling.

The people who were getting wiped had a reasonably remunerative way to recover by running as a Rook, and the fact that there would be many Rooks on the map allowed for fun, emergent gameplay that allowed Rooks to be a genuine threat to the lobby wiping team and have a chance at some incredible loot off their bodies (with the follow-on unpredictability and challenge of the Rook alliance possibly breaking down at that point). This was made possible by prox chat and the relatively strong individual kit a fully upgraded Rook spawned in with, and then further facilitated and improved by the addition of depleted self-revives and mercy kits. I think this dynamic resulted in overall higher satisfaction for all/most players and is a significant factor in why the last month of Season 1 had relatively stable player counts that were more than double what we're currently seeing.

Here in Season 2, Rooks have a much less capable individual kit even when fully upgraded and as a result many less people are running Rook. This has the knock on effect of making Rook-to-Rook interactions much less likely to occur and therefore there is significantly less opportunity for Rook players to group up and pull off successful challenges to lobby-wiping teams which reduces both the fun and likely rewards for Rook players. This then makes people less likely to run Rook and the dynamic reinforces itself. As a whole this results in less player satisfaction both for those pulling off lobby wipes as well as those being wiped/playing as a Rook.

A Possible Solution(s)

In Season 3 I think they should address this problem (boring, unchallenging, and consequently unrewarding post-wipe lobbies) with a two pronged approach. The first prong builds on what I think worked about the Rook mode in Season 1 and also provides some improvements to the experience of anyone playing as a Rook (but especially those who play as a Rook immediately after being wiped as a Runner). The second prong adds new mechanics and gameplay variety while also providing an opportunity to further develop the game's story/narrative/lore.

These two prongs combined would I think help by giving players reasons to actively avoid lobby wiping at times, and when they do lobby wipe, would serve to maintain the sense of danger, risk, and unpredictability that keeps things compelling and engaging.

First Prong

Signficantly improve the Rook's kit (at max upgrade), and provide additional incentives for people to play them, both in terms of outright rewards/incentives but also by making it very likely that if you queue in as a Rook you'll be put into the last match you were in as a Runner, if it's still running. This would allow players to hit the ground with some knowledge about the state of the lobby and with the ability to get revenge on the team that killed you and maybe recover your gear.

Second Prong

Bungie should introduce a more mobile, proactive, and aggressive form of UESC bots that only spawn in when there is one trio left on the map and a shortage of Rooks, who spawn in and actively hunt the last surviving trio/duo. A hunter-killer team if you will, Orion's strongest soldiers, with the commander unit possessing a significantly more varied set of attacks/moves justified as it being under Orion's direct control with some voice lines helping to sell that explanation and improve the sense of personal antagonism from Orion toward the Runners/players. Even better if there is another class of enemies (like the Pfhor) which can begin to spawn in and attack everything (UESC and Runners) some of the time too, just to keep things unpredictable and providing another avenue for story/narrative development.

This would also allow them to concentrate the Rooks that are queing into a smaller number of lobbies, ensuring a higher Rook count when Rooks are present without it being to the detriment of the lobbies that don't get the Rooks (since they would instead get the UESC Hunter-Killers or the Pfhor assualt). This would have the added impact of improving both the challenge provided by Rooks to Runners and improving the gameplay for Rooks specifically by allowing more opportunities for grouping up.

While there are some balancing challenges with implementing both prongs of this suggestion (and technical implementation challenges too), it's the sort of thing that I'd expect a studio like Bungie to be more than capable of pulling off. Though the Pfhor addition part of the suggestion may be too much to have ready/complete in time for Season 3 unless they started a lot of that work several-to-many months ago.

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u/flGovEmployee — 6 days ago
▲ 13 r/LowSodiumMarathon+4 crossposts

Weapon Tier List - Updated Again

EDIT: If you don't like my rankings, please come tell me what I got wrong!

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An update to my initial tier list and my previous tier list. This is ignoring golds and uniques, and assuming good attachment choices. Also this is as assessed for PvP, specifically trios/duos.

Compared to when I last made this I've spent some more time with these weapons and I'm now not just going off a vibes but also taking into account TTKs.

Please do note however that I am not ranking things solely based on TTKs but also taking into account things not readily tracked like how a weapon feels, as well as things which simply aren't well tracked like bloom, recoil, etc.

Arrows (↑ or ↓) indicate whether a weapon has moved up or down tiers compared to the last time around.

S Tier - The Meta

  • Bully SMG
  • Impact H-AR
  • V85 Circuit Breaker (↑)
  • Outland (↑)

A Tier - Losing With These is a Skill Issue

  • Misriah 2442 (↓)
  • D54 Battle Pistol
  • BR33 Volley Rifle
  • Magnum MC (↑)
  • Copperhead RF (↑)
  • Longshot (↑)

B Tier - A Good Choice

  • Twin Tap HBR (↓)
  • M77 Assault Rifle (↓)
  • V22 Volt Thrower
  • Demolition HMG
  • BRRT SMG
  • Stryder M1T
  • Hardline PR
  • V00 Zeus RG (↑)

C Tier - Reliable Workhorses in the Right Hands

  • V11 Punch
  • Ares RG
  • KKV-9SD
  • Retaliator LMG
  • V99 Channel (↑)

D Tier - Swap for Something Better at the First Opportunity

  • V66 Lookout
  • V75 Scar
  • WSTR Shotgun
  • Overrun AR
  • Conquest LMG (↑)

F Tier - Sell for Scrap

  • Repeater HPR
  • CE Tactical

Ungradeable

  • Biotoxic Disinjector
  • Utility Knife

Some additional weapon specific notes.

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u/flGovEmployee — 8 days ago
▲ 144 r/LowSodiumMarathon+4 crossposts

Updated, Verified, and Expanded TTKs and Weapon Stats

Starting with the resource provided here by the wonderful u/Ok_Blacksmith_3192, I've made a number of additions and refinements. Briefly listed below:

  • TTK calculation precision increased to account for:
    • the fact the first burst/shot fires without delay;
    • the specific time between shots within a burst;
    • which shot within burst delivers the killing damage;
  • Verification of the charge time for the V85 and V99, with RPM revised to account for this;
    • I believe this RPM can be further refined if someone is able to determine what delay there is between firing a shot and when the next charge up can begin;
  • Verification of the V75's RPM;
  • Calculation of the Conquests ramp up time for its RoF, and adjustment of TTKs accordingly;
  • Explicit indication of headshot damage values;
  • Addition of base magazine sizes/depths;
  • Addition of maximum potential damage contained within the base magazine when assuming all body shots or all headshots;
  • Adjustment of the color scaling to scale body shot TTKs separately from head shot TTKs;
  • Addition of color scaling for base damage, headshot damage, total potential damage within magazine, range, and RPM, all separately scaled within each column.
  • Addition a breakout of the individual sub-calculation values used in determining TTK, with drop downs (usable on the web version) to allow users to select which specific TTK calculation they want the values broken out for.

All values/calculations are for the base version of the weapon, not taking into account any mods (including golds), uniques, or other modifying values.

TTKs provided reflect the first shot fired at T+0:00:00. This means the TTK for the Conquest reflects it's RPM ramp up time, however the TTKs for the V85, V99, and railguns do not include their charge time.

Do note that these are ideal TTKs, and may not always be practically possible (looking at you WSTR).

Weapons are sorted within categories based on TTK for Headshots against Purple shields, in ascending order (the faster killing weapons are higher).

LINK TO SPREADSHEET

Please let me know if you find any inaccuracies or have suggestions for further additions/improvements/inclusions.

EDIT: I'm aware the dropdowns are not currently working, I'm not sure why (I don't usually work with Google Sheets). I'll figure it out later when I'm not playing Marathon). I figured it out.

u/flGovEmployee — 8 days ago
▲ 619 r/okbuddycontestant+1 crossposts

Using SteamDB Playercounts to Estimate Actual Playerbase Size and What That Potentially Means for Bungie's Bottom Line and the Longevity of Marathon

No AI was used in the preparation or writing of this post.

So there is a lot of discussion about playercounts in the comments here, and discussions elsewhere about this game and these discussions almost never put the playercounts we see on SteamDB into their proper context.

As the rest of this post will attempt to illustrate, even with our current (fairly disheartening) playercounts, there is likely still enough ongoing revenue coming in to support the operating costs of a fairly large (by industry standards, not necessarily by Bungie standards) development team.

This is not a short post, but it is not as long as it first appears due to the use of a code block and a table. I've also put some of the less important bits behind spoilers to make skimming past them easier. The majority of this post's content is just providing the calculations and estimation methodology. If you don't care about any of that you can skip to the 'Conclusion' section at the bottom.

>! I do not attempt to make a case that the game could become profitable both because we do not have sufficient information about its actual total development and marketing costs prior to release, and because that's not how the decision about whether or when to cease the live development of the game will be made. That decision will be made primarily based on operating revenue compared to operating costs and the opportunity costs arising from tasking those resources to some other project. !<

Monthly Operating Cost Estimate

Assume a nominal salary of $115,000 for Bungie employees, then multiply by 1.6 to estimate^(1) nominal salary + employer costs (healthcare, retirement, FICA, etc.) for a yearly cost per employee of $184,000. Then divide that by 12 for the monthly cost per employee (commonly referred to as 'burn rate') which works out to $15,333. Then multiply that by the team size (commonly assumed to be ~400 though no one actually knows), for a monthly team cost of ~$6.1 million. Working from the base $184,000 per employee cost for the year a team of 400 would cost $73.6 million per year.

>!Now this excludes things like office space rent, computer equipment, software licensing, etc., however these are going to be a small minority of the studio's total costs relative to the labor expenses (costs of employees). This math is also assuming every single employee is a developer being paid at that salary rate when in reality that won't be the case with some of the employees being in relatively low paid positions like secretaries, or other less well paid positions than that of a software developer, as well as some employees being in more highly paid positions like directors and other forms of leadership, we can ignore that in this case and just assume that the average of those other positions more or less nets out.!<

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^(1)>!While no doubt different, I do work in a capacity where I see the direct payroll expenses for my (very large) employer and a 1.6 multiple for factoring in employer costs relative to nominal salaries is the current ratio. It was more like 1.36x as recently as 2020 but US Health Insurance costs have grown very rapidly, I would not be surprised if it grows to 1.75x or 1.8x by the end of the decade.!<

Per Player Spend & Monthly Revenue

The exact portion of players that buy microtransactions varies quite a bit from game to game so we'll instead work with 'average per player monthly spend.' While hard figures on this are virtually completely unavailable there are a lot of grounded estimates out there. I'm going to assume an average monthly per player spend of $7 including battlepasses and skins^(2) but ignoring up front price of the game, factoring in the platform cut of 30% that works out to about $5 of actual realized revenue per player on average (most players spend nothing, some players spend something, a few players spend A LOT).

In order to estimate monthly revenue using this figure we need an estimate for the playerbase size against which to multiply the estimated average monthly per player spend. Now it is important to note this is Monthly Active Players (MAU) not Peak Concurrent Players (SteamDB counts), Daily Active Players, or even Weekly Active Players.

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^(2)>!This is the part of this analysis I feel the least confident about, so if anyone has some sources that would allow me to refine this estimate (either up or down), that would be much appreciated. !<

Extrapolating DAU, WAU, and MAU

I'll be using the below calculations to estimate the specific values. The resulting estimates are highly sensitive to the provided input (given) values. I encourage you to mock up these calculations on a spreadsheet yourself and adjust the inputs to see just how sensitive, especially since most of these inputs require me to make reasonable assumptions about their true values.

    _Given Values_
[Daily Average CCU] = ?
[Average Hours Played per Day] = ?                    per Player
[Average Days Played per Week] = ?                    per Player
[Average Weeks Played per Month] = ?                  per Player        
[Percent of Active Users on Consoles] = ?             as a decimal value; 70% = 0.7
[Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player] = ?
    ---

[Total Hours Played per Day] = [Daily Average CCU] * 24

    _PC Estimates_
PC_DAU = [Total Hours Played] / [Average Hours Played per Day]
PC_WAU = (DAU * 7) / [Average Days Played per Week]
PC_MAU = (WAU * 4) / [Average Weeks Played per Month]

    _Total Estimates_
DAU = PC_DAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])
WAU = PC_WAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])
MAU = PC_MAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])

    _Revenue Estimate_
Monthly Revenue = MAU * [Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player]

Using the only hard data we have of ~4,000 per day (eyeballing the chart for the past week) for [Daily Average CCU], and the above established estimate of $5 for [Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player] and using several sets of what I believe to be reasonable assumptions for the other inputs we arrive at the below.

Value Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5
[Daily Average CCU] 4,000 4,000 4,000 4,000 15,500
[Average Hours Played per Day] 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.75 1.75
[Average Days Played per Week] 2 2.5 3 2.5 2.5
[Average Weeks Played per Month] 3 3 3 3 3
[Percent of Active Users on Consoles] 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.35 0.35
[Total Hours Played per Day] 96,000 96,000 96,000 96,000 372,000
PC_DAU 64,000 64,000 64,000 54,857 212,571
PC_WAU 224,000 179,200 149,333 153,600 595,199
PC_MAU 298,667 238,933 199,111 204,800 793,599
DAU 91,429 91,429 91,429 84,395 327,032
WAU 320,000 256,000 213,333 236,308 915,691
MAU 426,667 341,333 284,444 315,077 1,220,922
Monthly Revenue $2,133,336 $1,706,664 $1,422,221 $1,575,385 $6,104,608

Sets 1-3 vary only the number of days played per week. Set 4 is my own guess for what the actual given values look like, and Set 5 is a hypothethical case identical to Set 4 but adjusting [Daily Average CCU] to reflect the minimum value necessary for revenue to exceed the estimated monthly cost of $6.1 million.

Conclusion

Based on this analysis it would appear that a sustained 4x - 5x increase is needed to cover the ongoing costs associated with the game. The last time we were in that range was approximatley the week of Sunday 4/12 - Saturday 4/18.

The current playerbase is only sufficient to support a development team size of ~100. While this is only a fraction of the current (presumed) team size, it is still a very significant number of developers, and at most studios, more than enough to support, or indeed even develop a game of Marathon's scope and size. ID for example stated recently that they developed Doom 2016 with a team size of about 50 people, though I'm sure some amount of outsourcing was used as well which has its own costs.

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 15 days ago

Monthly OpCost Estimates and Extrapolations from the CCU

I just wanted to inject a little bit of hard analysis into the discussions around player counts and the potential implications of a given playerbase size on business decisions.

Monthly Operating Cost Estimate

Assume a nominal salary of $115,000 for Bungie employees, then multiply by 1.6 to estimate^(1) nominal salary + employer costs (healthcare, retirement, FICA, etc.) for a yearly cost per employee of $184,000. Then divide that by 12 for the monthly cost per employee (commonly referred to as 'burn rate') which works out to $15,333. Then multiply that by the team size (commonly assumed to be ~400 though no one actually knows), for a monthly team cost of ~$6.1 million. Working from the base $184,000 per employee cost for the year a team of 400 would cost $73,600,000 per year.

Now this excludes things like office space rent, computer equipment, software licensing, etc., however these are going to be a small minority of the studio's total costs relative to the labor expenses (costs of employees). This math is also assuming every single employee is a developer being paid at that salary rate when in reality that won't be the case with some of the employees being in relatively low paid positions like secretaries, or other less well paid positions than that of a software developer, as well as some employees being in more highly paid positions like directors and other forms of leadership, we can ignore that in this case and just assume that the average of those other positions more or less nets out.

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^(1) >!While no doubt different, I do work in a capacity where I see the direct payroll expenses for my (very large) employer and a 1.6 multiple for factoring in employer costs relative to nominal salaries is the current ratio. It was more like 1.36x as recently as 2020 but US Health Insurance costs have grown very rapidly, I would not be surprised if it grows to 1.75x or 1.8x by the end of the decade.!<

Per Player Spend & Monthly Revenue

The exact portion of players that buy microtransactions varies quite a bit from game to game so we'll instead work with 'average per player monthly spend.' While hard figures on this are virtually completely unavailable there are a lot of grounded estimates out there. I'm going to assume an average monthly per player spend of $7 including battlepasses and skins^(2) but ignoring up front price of the game, factoring in the platform cut of 30% that works out to about $5 of actual realized revenue per player on average (most players spend nothing, some players spend something, a few players spend A LOT).

In order to estimate monthly revenue using this figure though we need an estimate for the playerbase size against which to multiply the estimated average monthly per player spend. Now it is important to note this is Monthly Active Players (MAU) not Peak Concurrent Players (SteamDB counts), Daily Active Players, or even Weekly Active Players.

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^(2) >!This is the part of this analysis I feel the least confident about, so if anyone has some sources that would allow us to refine this estimate (either up or down), that would be much appreciated. !<

Extrapolating DAU, WAU, and MAU

I'll be using the below calculations to estimate the specific values. The resulting estimates are highly sensitive to the provided input (given) values, I encourage you to mock up these calculations on a spreadsheet yourself and adjust the inputs to see just how sensitive.

    _Given Values_
[Daily Average CCU] = ?
[Average Hours Played per Day] = ?                    per Player
[Average Days Played per Week] = ?                    per Player
[Average Weeks Played per Month] = ?                  per Player        
[Percent of Active Users on Consoles] = ?             as a decimal value; 70% = 0.7
[Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player] = ?
    ---

[Total Hours Played per Day] = [Daily Average CCU] * 24

    _PC Estimates_
PC_DAU = [Total Hours Played] / [Average Hours Played per Day]
PC_WAU = (DAU * 7) / [Average Days Played per Week]
PC_MAU = (WAU * 4) / [Average Weeks Played per Month]

    _Total Estimates_
DAU = PC_DAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])
WAU = PC_WAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])
MAU = PC_MAU / (1 - [Percent of Active Users on Consoles])

    _Revenue Estimate_
Monthly Revenue = MAU * [Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player]

Using the only hard data we have of ~4,000 per day (eyeballing the chart for the past week) for [Daily Average CCU], and the above established estimate of $5 for [Average Monthly Realized Revenue per Player] and using several sets of other given values we arrive at the below.

Value Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5
[Daily Average CCU] 4,000 4,000 4,000 4,000 15,500
[Average Hours Played per Day] 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.75 1.75
[Average Days Played per Week] 2 2.5 3 2.5 2.5
[Average Weeks Played per Month] 3 3 3 3 3
[Percent of Active Users on Consoles] 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.35 0.35
[Total Hours Played per Day] 96,000 96,000 96,000 96,000 372,000
PC_DAU 64,000 64,000 64,000 54,857 212,571
PC_WAU 224,000 179,200 149,333 153,600 595,199
PC_MAU 298,667 238,933 199,111 204,800 793,599
DAU 91,429 91,429 91,429 84,395 327,032
WAU 320,000 256,000 213,333 236,308 915,691
MAU 426,667 341,333 284,444 315,077 1,220,922
Monthly Revenue $2,133,336 $1,706,664 $1,422,221 $1,575,385 $6,104,608

Sets 1-3 vary only the number of days played per week. Set 4 is my own guess for what the actual given values look like, and Set 5 is a hypothethical case identical to Set 4 but adjusting [Daily Average CCU] to reflect the minimum value necessary for revenue to exceed the estimated monthly cost of $6.1 million.

Based on this analysis it would appear that a sustained 4x - 5x increase is needed to cover the ongoing costs associated with the game. The last time we were in that range was approximatley the week of Sunday 4/12 - Saturday 4/18.

The current playerbase is only sufficient to support a development team size of ~100. While this is only a fraction of the current (presumed) team size, it is still a very significant number of developers, and at most studios, more than enough to support, or indeed even develop a game of Marathon's scope and size. ID for example stated recently that they developed Doom 2016 with a team size of about 50 people, though I'm sure some amount of outsourcing was used as well which has its own costs.

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 16 days ago

An Overlooked Omission from the Last UI Update

So I don't remember when it got added but a week or two before last week's update I noticed a prompt at the bottom of the 'Prepare' screen (the view where you see your shell and your teammates' as you prepare for a run) to hide the UI and get an unobstructed view of the shells and weapons. With a controller plugged in the button for it was the 'Select' button (the one with the two overlapped squares on an Xbox controller).

I really liked this feature as a way to admire the fantastic artwork of the different runner and weapon skins while waiting for teammates to finish prepping their gear.

I know things are continuing to be tweaked and there were more than a handful of UI changes in the last patch so I'm sure it was just overlooked or didn't make it into the patch but I'm really hoping to see it return in the near future.

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 25 days ago
▲ 134 r/Marathon

DAMN YOU RYAN LOTT

.

I started playing the soundtrack off of FLACs and now I can't bring myself to stop it to launch the game!

Also OST vinyl release when?

u/flGovEmployee — 1 month ago

An Idea for a Pure PvP Mode (Arena-like)

Here's my idea for a zero stakes, 'casual' pure PvP mode, something that still ties back into the core PvPvE and extraction mode loop:

  • having the pure PvP mode be on a small map (like say a single PoI from an existing map), with a loadout value maximum (and suggested minimum).
  • You configure your loadout from gear in your vault/armory and then load in.
  • Dying in this mode just results in a respawn with the same exact gear from your initial load out.
  • You can still loot items off of other players you kill, but you only keep those items until you die and respawn (or the match ends).
  • At the end of the match everyone keeps the gear they came in with, and maybe the winning team is awarded with some credits, or salvage.
  • Everyone gets a small amount of Arachne XP on getting kills/downs throughout the match (like 5 for downs and 10 for eliminations).
  • Limited matches for this mode per day, with the ability to unlock more with specific (new) salvage only available from the core extraction modes.

This would provide a zero risk mode in which players can build up their base skills with the mechanics/weapons, experiment with tactics or builds, and generally provide a low stress way to blow of steam or get some sweet, sweet PvP in, while still providing some small, insignificant amount of game system progression (credits/XP) with the real progression provided by this mode being in advancing a player's skills.

Also would have minimal effects on the broader game economy this way too. It would also require engagement and progression in the main PvPvE (and/or PvE) modes in order to have access to more than the very most basic gear to play around with here.

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 2 months ago
▲ 2 r/MarathonGame+1 crossposts

A Question of Reasonable Expectations

First a couple of base assumptions:

  • The primary challenge/threat posed to players in this game is other players;
  • The primary determinant of the degree of challenge posed by the game to any individual player/team is who the matchmaking places into their lobby as their opposition;
  • The purpose of good game and matchmaking design is to ensure that all players experience challenging opponents (not constantly but at least often enough that no players are ever surprised to encounter opponents of equal or greater skill to themselves);
  • The definition of an unsuccessful run is one in which a player does not exfiltrate.
    • ^(Please note this is a technical definition for the term as used in the questions, not a universal normative statement, please do not be derailed by your disagreement with this definition in the broader sense, it's not important)

Now the questions:

Assuming an averagely skilled player is properly equipped and making reasonable decisions about noise and engaging bots or other players (as you specifically would evaluate them to be reasonable and average), not attempting to wipe the lobby, not attempting to exfiltrate at the very first opportunity merely to achieve a successful exfiltration, not playing completely as a rat, but going in to achieve a specific objective such as completing a contract or getting some reasonable loot value and then exfiltrating:

  1. How many consecutive unsuccessful runs (across one or many days) would they need to experience before you would consider it unreasonable to expect them to continue playing?
  2. How many consecutive unsuccessful runs would they need to experience before you would consider it indicative of a failure of either matchmaking or game design?
  3. What percentage of successful runs would you consider the bare minimum for them to experience, regardless of consecutivity, at which point it would be reasonable to expect them to continue playing (assuming they otherwise liked the game, etc.)?
  4. What percentage of successful runs would you consider the bare minimum for them to experience, regardless of consecutivity, to be indicative of successful matchmaking and/or game design?

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Thanks to all who provided answers to my last round of questions, I've designed these questions to hopefully better get at what it is I'm trying to guage whether and what there is a consensus around, as well as to hopefully head off the many caveats and unconsidered factors in my previous questions.

reddit.com
u/flGovEmployee — 2 months ago
▲ 276 r/Marathon

Why's the the Reward's Pass Assassin skin Wall-eyed?

Literally unplayable, plz fix

u/flGovEmployee — 2 months ago
▲ 401 r/Marathon

Marathon reconsiders bug abuse approach after player uses Cryo Archive exploit to butcher an entire team

It seems Bungie is reaching out to make right by the team that got killed after wiping the Compiler by the exploiters and reconsidering what behaviors will result in bans.

I for one would be happy to hear this exploiter was banned, not because they found an exploit but because they used it in such a toxic way to grief.

More than just happy to hear they've been banned though, I'm really demanding it. If they just let this one by then I don't see any reason to believe even with an updated policy that the next instance of completely egregious and obvious cheating and griefing will be responded to any differently.

There is no way any competent adult, or even teenager, would not realize that this conduct was completely unacceptable and deserving of a ban.

pcgamesn.com
u/flGovEmployee — 3 months ago