u/mxlevolent

Preferably no slash because I’m all burnt out on HP slash fics right now.

Is anybody reading any fresh romance fics though? They can be Haphne, or Harry/Astoria, or Harry/Luna, or just about anyone, really.

I think that Jon's best ships are the most underrated and underutilised ones. Jon/Mya Stone, for example, or Jon/Ygritte which despite being canon is hardly used in the fandom. Jon/Val also doesn't get a lot of attention.

Sansa and Daenaerys get practically all of the attention, and Margaery Tyrell is in a distant, distant third.

Jon/Alys Karstark is one such ship that I believe would be super interesting to read a fic for.

They have some chemistry in canon, they canonically shared a dance when they were younger that you could use as a small divergence point, Rickard wanted a match between Alys and Robb that you could shift into 'Alys and a Stark', and it also keeps Jon in the North instead of sending him south to be King, as many fics do.

But what circumstances could lead to them marrying?

One that I'm almost certain would do it would be if Jon was named Jon Stark. In practically every way, Jon was a twin to Robb in canon. They always had each other, they had the same education, the same training. If Jon had the Stark name, a match with Alys would work.

However, I can't think of any particular reason why Ned would ask for legitimisation outside of dire circumstances, which would change the world far too much; an injury to himself, for example, or losing Robb, or something similar.

Are there any reasons why Ned would name him a Stark that don't involve massive change or danger to his family?

Canonically, as well, Ned wasn't the sort to seek out betrothals - at least, until Robert came north for Sansa. Robb's hand wasn't promised to anybody, so what could be a reason that he would start seeking betrothal agreements?

Another option, in my head, is Jon being given some land and the opportunity to choose a name and start a new house of his own. It's almost the same as the Stark name one, only here there's a guarantee for a future, and Alys would still tie the Karstarks to the Starks since Jon would still be 'part' of the family, albeit with a different name.

I'm unsure whether or not Sea Dragon Point would be big enough to convince Rickard Karstark to offer Alys' hand. I don't know anything about the quality of that land, how much would even be given, and the risk of ironborn raids will always be there.

The Gift would be more than enough, since one of the only things we know about it is that it's canonically some of the best land in the North (it's not some barren wasteland like a lot of people assume. One of the only mainline quotes about the Gift as land is "This is good land") and it's also huge.

But again, Ned naming Jon as Lord of the Gift would require a massive impetus. Catelyn would lose her mind. There would also need to be some sort of agreement between the Starks, the Night's Watch, and presumably the Crown. Wildling raids would also be a huge risk, and incentivising smallfolk to move into the Gift would be a big ask.

What options are there, do you think? What circumstances could there be, in a fic's world, that would lead to (or allow) Jon to marry Alys Karstark?

This post assumes R+L=J is true.

A lot of people point to this quote:

>If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

And say that it's proof that Catelyn couldn't be trusted with the secret of Jon's birth. People also tend to point to her freeing Jaime in some effort to get Sansa returned to her.

Now, for the record, I do agree that if a situation ever came to pass in which - for whatever reason - telling somebody who Jon Snow's parents were somehow preserved the safety or lives of her own children, Catelyn would say what she had to.

I feel like, in all honestly, it's disingenuous to pretend that most people wouldn't. In the quote above, note that Ned doesn't even include Jon in the list of his children, only specifically including him in the hypothetical trade being offered to Catelyn.

That isn't to say that Ned would sell out Jon, but it is to say that Ned himself is worried that he would sell out some random child that he didn't care for to preserve the lives of his own - Ned doesn't know what choice he'd make, and "he prayed he never would"

So: most people would sell out a random kid to preserve the lives of all of their own children.

HOWEVER.

I am of the opinion that there exist exactly 0 situations in which spilling the secret of R+L=J would prove in any way beneficial for Catelyn and her children - even wrongly so, like the freeing of Jaime - assuming that she knew.

I don't think there's a single situation in which Catelyn could delude herself into thinking so.

If Robert Baratheon was angry at their family, saying "there's a secret child of Rhaegar Targaryen over here who we've harboured and kept secret from you" isn't going to make him less angry at their family. If anything, it endangers their family dramatically more.

If Tywin Lannister was angry at them, there's no situation in which saying "we've got this secret child of Rhaegar Targaryen who might be a bastard or might not be, depending on the existence of certain documents and the faith's stance on polygamy" does anything other than encourage him to attack with more venom.

I'm being silly with the dialogue, but just think - what situation could exist in which, presumably, the Stark family (and Catelyn's children in particular) are under threat, but SOMEHOW, the reveal of R+L=J would HELP THEM at the expense of Jon?

MAYBE if the people who posed the threat to the Stark family and children were Targaryen loyalists, who could be convinced that Jon Snow is in fact a Targaryen, despite him looking incredibly Stark?

The fact of the matter is that Ned didn't know if Catelyn would ever come to care for Jon as much as she cared for the children of her own body because he, himself, didn't know if he could care for some random kid as much as he cared for the children he viewed as his. Ned didn't trust Catelyn immediately after marrying her as they didn't know each other, and so couldn't tell her then. After that, there wasn't really a point, as secrets are only secret so long as few people know them. Catelyn was an added risk by virtue of being another person, and Ned couldn't take that risk, and the entire situation is a tragedy.

I was mulling over a fic idea where Ned Stark assembles the banners and rides to deal with Mance Rayder and the Wildlings, the way that he considered doing so in canon.

Once he was there, though, I thought that the Others would spring their largest attack yet, and Northmen would fight side-by-side with the Free Folk in desperation

Now, Ned Stark IS a practical man, and I thought that he MAY consider bringing the Wildlings through the Wall in the aftermath. There would be those who'd refuse, of course, but a lot of them would be willing to adjust to some northern laws - and in all likelihood, the ones who would refuse would be the type to go out of their way to start problems.

My question is this: could the WoT5K help... if not INTEGRATE the Wildlings into the North, then ease relations?

I ask this mainly because I could picture some sort of rivalry-camaraderie between the Greatjon and Tormund Giantsbane, and I could see the Mormont women befriending a number of spearwives.

Plus, in my head, this could scratch the itch that canon has left me with - where, of course, we expect Jon to lead a host of Wildlings to Winterfell. It wouldn't turn out like that, of course, but the fearmongering in the south about a host of Northmen and Wildlings would be incredible.

And secondary to this, I need help figuring out what the arrangement would be that Ned might figure out with the Wildlings. The Gift is canonically some great land, but Jeor Mormont only supported the resettlement arrangement that Ned floated in canon if the lords in question paid their taxes to the Watch instead of to Winterfell, and of course the Wildlings HATE the Watch.

NED could solve that, of course, with an extra step taken to redistribute back to the Watch whatever he gets from the Wildlings should they refuse to give it directly, but other Lords of Winterfell might not be so kind.

I imagine that, depending on how things work out, Mance COULD stay on as a pseudo 'Lord of the Gift and the Wildlings' instead of 'King Beyond the Wall' - but that depends on how Ned feels about his desertion. If not him, then who?

And I don't even KNOW what I'd do about the Giants here lol.

I had this thought based off of the fact that, well, you can’t really tell what a baby will grow up to look like.

Let’s say that Ned Stark looks at baby Jon Snow, sees that he has dark Stark hair, and Stark grey eyes, and claims him as his bastard because those are features that Jon shares with him. For a baby, it’s a good enough lie — and if Jon looks a bit too pale, well, his mother was pale.

As Jon grows, though, let’s say that it becomes increasingly obvious that he’s not growing into a Stark man. He doesn’t have the long face or any northern features. He’s incredibly pretty and rather beautiful, like his sire, but he has dark hair and dark eyes.

Again, things are MOSTLY fine — canon — for a very long time. At some point, though, Catelyn would probably recognise the face. She would’ve met Rhaegar several times, probably more often than Ned did. She was the daughter of a Lord Paramount and specifically of the incredibly central Riverlands.

How many tourneys would she have attended, alongside her father, where Rhaegar was also in attendance? How many times might Rhaegar have stopped at Riverrun and enjoyed their hospitality as he travelled throughout the realm?

If Catelyn recognises him, that’s one thing — an internal issue, she could be brought in on the secret. That’s fine. Northern bannermen wouldn’t be likely to recognise Rhaegar’s face, except for PERHAPS Wyman Manderly since White Harbour is a big city and an important port. Wyman Manderly, though, is probably the Stark’s most loyal bannerman. So that’s fine, too.

Really, it’s good for one major canon divergence — when Robert visits the North.

Jon, logically, CAN’T be kept there if he is Rhaegar Targaryen’s dark-haired twin. Robert “I kill him in my dreams every night” Baratheon would recognise him, instantly. Jaime Lannister, who idolised Rhaegar, would recognise him too. Cersei Lannister would recognise him. Barristan Selmy? If he was there, he’d recognise him as well.

Really, this AU gives Jon the most dangerous face in all the seven kingdoms. Anybody in a major position of power in the south, who’d met and conversed with Rhaegar Targaryen, would see through the lie if his face was exactly the same as Rhaegar. He’s basically walking around as Rhaegar’s ghost with monotone eyes and dark hair.

The question then becomes… what does Ned do?

He could send Jon away the moment that he hears of Robert travelling north, but that’s unlikely to go over well with his poor children who’ve been living their lives the exact same. Jon was bothered by Catelyn sitting him far away from the head table in canon, but if NED brings Jon into his solar and tells him that he has to leave Winterfell completely because of the king’s visit, it’d break his heart. Robb would also probably crash out something big, and Arya too although she’d be less of a serious threat at the time.

Ned, as Lord, can dismiss his children’s issues though. It’ll cause some problems in the short term, but that’s… fine. Somewhat. Benjen isn’t back, though, and Ned has no clue about Jon’s (at the time lesser) inclinations to join the Watch.

If Jon brings it up after this fight, Ned might think that it’s some huge overreaction to his being sent away — he could even forbid it, or instruct Jon to wait until after the visit. He’d also be unlikely to send Jon to the Wall himself, and he isn’t SO cold-hearted that he’d sent Jon with an escort to the Wall to watch him swear his vows just because Robert is visiting Winterfell.

So where does Jon go?

I still think that the Watch is more than likely, but there could be some fun moments here depending on how you play it. Jon could visit White Harbour, or he could spend time with the Karstarks. He could be headed somewhere else and get into a tumble with the Wildlings, starting that whole thing off sooner. Jon could, in something of a tantrum, hop on a boat and head over to Essos, joining a sellsword company to try and make a new name for himself.

This fic is “What if Jon was Rhaegar’s dark-haired twin” as much as it is “What if Jon leaves before Robert’s visit to Winterfell”

The above is just what I think, too. I think Jon would still be fairly safe in Winterfell until the canon visit from Robert, but I might just be missing ways that things could diverge beforehand.

Basically, what the title says. For the ease’s sake, we could adjust some ages, but let’s leave I won’t do that just yet.

After Robert expresses his desire to have Mya Stone brought to the capital, Cersei threatens her, but Robert isn’t content to simply let the issue die here. He rationalises that if he can’t have her in the Red Keep, making sure she has a good life by his side, then he can do it from a distance.

To reconcile with Ned after their huge fight in the wake of what happened to Elia Martell’s children, Robert unilaterally decides to unite his house with the Stark’s, the way that they would’ve been had he married Lyanna. He betroths his bastard to Ned Stark’s bastard, and says that when they come of age, he’ll give them a name and they can have some land, or a keep.

Robert nods and calls that a job well done, much to the horror of Jon Arryn.

So, this is a very different AU.

For Jon growing up, and from the moment that Mya enters his life, he basically knows where he’s ending up, and it’s not at the Wall.

Furthermore, Mya avoids the Redfort family entirely, likely won’t be in the Vale (potentially sent to Winterfell from a young age) and likely winds up quite different herself.

There would be a lot of angry Lannisters, Tullys, and more in this world, since Robert has functionally legitimised his eldest child and ensured that she could have an heir of her own before Joffrey could even be married himself. The succession would be incredibly muddied, and that is BEFORE the truth comes out about Cersei’s children.

Robert likely wouldn’t even press for a Joffrey-Sansa match in this universe, since in his mind the houses have been united anyway. Ned Stark may become Hand of the King, but would he take ANY of his children with him (after Bran is injured) here? Sansa was coming South primarily for Joffrey, and Arya and Bran were both supposed to come and learn but Bran was injured, meaning it was just the two girls.

If Sansa has no reason to go South… Ned likely wouldn’t take Arya alone.

And where would Mya and Jon settle down? Would Ned press for the Gift to be returned to him — and them — after the Greyjoy Rebellion, or would Robert try to get them somewhere in the Stormlands? What would Storm’s End actually think, knowing that there was a legitimised bastard of Robert Baratheon, married somewhere?

And what would the WoT5K even look like, here? There are no legitimate children of Robert Baratheon by his wife, but there IS this one legitimised bastard who was married to a Stark bastard.

Furthermore, depending on if the characters are aged up or down, they could already have a kid — and Mya, who has a Valyrian great-grandparent, and Jon, who is basically half-Valyrian, might be surprised to see their baby have purple eyes, or silver hair, or BOTH. Could the secret come out organically?

Would that risk make Ned push for their land to be in the North?

This is just a really fascinating AU, I think, and it’s just a perfect Bobby B move. What do you guys think? How could things play out?

I always found it weird in canon how, like, 20 dudes took Winterfell. Even if Rodrik took EVERY GUARD out of the castle, Winterfell (as large as it is) should've had... hundreds of able-bodied men and women?

Against 20?

I chalk it up to 'early series weirdness', but Winterfell operates much smaller than it actually is, in-universe.

So, I was wondering if there was a fic where Theon's attempt just flat out fails.

I started thinking about this and I can’t get the idea out of my head.

If Lyanna was the eldest child of Rickard (then Brandon, Ned, Benjen in that order), it’s likely that he’d try and get a betrothal to the prince just to shoot for the stars, because of his southern ambitions.

Let’s say that this happens and Lyanna does just marry Rhaegar, straight up.

Who does Elia Martell marry? She deserves better.

What’s the Red Keep look like?

Does A rebellion, in some form, still happen? Rhaegar’s Rebellion VS Robert’s Rebellion?

Presumably the STAB alliance has changed completely. Brandon could still be betrothed to Catelyn, and Ned could still be friends with Robert in the Vale, but there’d be no betrothal with Robert to tie him in.

If, somehow, Brandon and Rickard were still to die as they did in canon, is it more or less likely that Ned would marry someone Dornish? Maybe Ashara, maybe even Elia for the new Warden of the North if we shift ages around?

Ages don’t have to be the exact same if we’re shifting Lyanna around and this is a fun exercise, I think, to imagine differing alliances in this different world.

What do you guys think Westeros would look like in terms of alliances, the crown, and weddings, etc, in this AU?

In Dance, there is a blizzard around Winterfell specifically.

Asha describes it as unrelenting, in the area surrounding Winterfell.

Jon is staring southward, musing about how it was snowing two-days away from the Wall.

I'm fairly certain that Stannis' men even note that it's so strangely localised and powerful that it must be from the Old Gods, sent to punish northern invaders and turncloaks.

Tinfoil theory: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is meant incredibly, incredibly literally, though the initial reason has been lost to time. The storm might not be directly because of the Old Gods, but there is magic in this series, so it could be something else. If Winterfell is LITERALLY where "Winter fell" at the end of the Long Night, there could be something in the earth there, some weird magic or warding or dead things.