u/soup100

Prompt: The quiet rapture happens in the Star trek universe, the blood ocean moons appear one by one, and on the blood ocean moon closest to where the light came from show different readings… meaning someone gotta go down there and check it out.

Win condition:

Whether or not it’s possible in the film for this hypothetical lets assume that if they were to reach the floor of the blood ocean, take their samples, and escape with their lives, they could find a way to reverse the quiet rapture and save the universe.

Could they succeed? And which star trek crew would have the best shot at it?

Use real calculations here… no assuming… no “more than a planet” talk unless you can back it up. The story has given you numbers to use… use them

- if you ignore all the nuances.

For this argument we will be scaling as though the Viltrum feat is the absolute strongest feat we can attribute to viltrumites, even though no, they have higher end scales, but we’ll ignore that for now.

I will be covering this in different scenarios:

War Scenario: Viltrumites win by destroying the planet the saiyans are on and destroying any chance they make to escape… it’s that simple. And we know they can do this as Allen straight up states that they “blew up the planet rather than lose it.” We’ve seen their tech, it’s not good enough to do this… meaning they had to have done it themselves with at max 20 average viltrumites.

1v1 averages: Raditz is above average and a low class progidy like his father, so we’ll be using Lucan as the stand-in as we don’t actually know how strong an ”average“ viltrimite is thanks to Thaedus. Same With average saiyan. anyway Raditz dies. We’ve seen both with Nail and android 20 that ki does not protect you if you get grabbed and your opponent is stronger than you. Lucan would literally pop Raditz’s arm off with more ease than it would take to kill kid Oliver. Add that on the fact that we seen from both Super-hero and the 5 minute Namek fight that they are only fighting at around subsonic speeds on average. I have no doubt that they can make bursts of faster speed, but that really isn’t the problem here. The real problem is that all the moves that he would need to use, require a charge up and range, neither of which he will get against a viltrumite.

1v1 Elites: same answer, except it ends a lot faster. In fact the Ozaru, even if fully controlled, would actually be a great hindrance as even with the increased speed, you’re still a much larger target, against a much faster opponent. And it doesn’t even solve the strength problem as before. The one advantage they have over the lower class tier Is that elite viltrumites are much more cocky, which would be a great asset… If the elite saiyans were not just as bad.

50 v 50: Saiyans only win con is to have one really strong one stay in the back, turn into the giant monkey, and sacrifice the other 49 saiyans to kill the 50 viltrumites. Which in fairness does sound like a strategy Vegeta would use.

And finally, this is all with just considering that the Viltrum feat was in fact too hard to do physically, and not factoring in the documented extreme heat weakness, as well as not factoring in how much more force it would take to accomplish that feat.

Round 1: Stoic is in the iron lung and has weapons ready for when the Eel attacks

Round 2: Stoic has an infinite breathing apparatus and can see through the blood. No ship

normally id say this is deeply unfair but I’ve seen this man punch out dragons and wrestle a thunder drum into submission while underwater… so…

Goku will start at age 4 with his training and will get his viltrumite powers at say age 17, he has all the same teachers, but for a decent amount of time he’ll be like krillin.

After age 17 his physicals will skyrocket to absurd amounts, he’ll be able to fly without ki, his body would be able to heal from fatal wounds, and he’ll begin aging slower and slower as time goes on. He’ll become far stronger, and far far faster. And finally in place of a zen-kai boost he’d get smart atom adaptations, meaning the same thing that hurt before ain’t gonna work nearly as well a second time.

Viltrumites don’t have a defined limit to their strength, mostly it’s good genetics allowing you to get your powers earlier, and training, with adaptations added on to fortify your ever increasing strength with age.

How far could Goku take this stat setup with his personality? (bonus: How far would Gohan take it if his powers developed at age 12?)

Obviously the title is a bit hyperbole, but not entirely inaccurate. Obviously they are still pretty damn tough, but not to the same degree that they are against kinetic attacks, and I have examples for everything.

Defining Durability: Durability on an atomic level is your atoms's ability to stay connected to one another under stress. Dragonball characters suck at this and I've got proof... hell I'll only use manga panels so that no one goes... "But that's not canon to the manga!"

Crushing Strength:

https://preview.redd.it/2t7polriyoyg1.jpg?width=583&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d91dd851940e3f422b46beac8724cc8574fc0d9f

Yeah so saiyans's lifting is canonically garbage... but hey at least they've got resistance against being crushed... well not exactly. Ozaru is only a 10 times multiplier on raw physical strength... but even if it was 100 times multiplier this still wouldn't be a lot compared to the punches or blasts these guys take on a regular basis.

Heat resistance:

https://preview.redd.it/xzt9xqr5zoyg1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff314865f91c1637991f420cf6bbdad3cdb9ed73

All the way in super lava is still too much for these guys... even Moro admits that this isn't his own power doing this. They are still getting screwed over by lava even now... but I know what you're thinking... maybe lava is way hotter on namek than it is on earth... no proof of this outside of Moro just saying that namek possesses exceptional energy... and while this would generally track with what we saw in the Super Broly movie:

https://i.redd.it/pk7k95v70pyg1.gif

Unless Namek is some kind of multiversal level planet... then this shouldn't scale to their ability to absorb kinetic damage.

Pulling strength:

https://preview.redd.it/jwobdimy0pyg1.jpg?width=1560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=639b3e5d8551cbe750aad54a12ae42981c3b85b3

Second verse same as the first... dbz lifting strength is garbage! And this thing was supposedly more powerful than even Frieza... I feel like I don't even have to explain this one... it's right there:

Shear Force:

https://preview.redd.it/vftpam9i1pyg1.jpg?width=626&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79b34b05aeda1cced768470864974f2ab078fe91

Planetary and above Yajirobe without training to the rescue! Not enough well then: But I hear what you're saying: "That was a surprise attack!" Well...

https://preview.redd.it/ib3cosmy2pyg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=4a8be35b9e9b58e406743aef66bf9f3e681226d2

Even Vegeta Recognized that this would kill Nappa if it landed... so clearly cutting moves are way more effective than punches...

Verdict:

I've always had the assertion that Ki doesn't offer durability as much as it offers shock absorption... the ability to absorb kinetic energy would explain why planet busting punches don't send them out of orbit despite their lack of weight... just as well it would explain why the environment doesn't sustain more damage when someone is punched into the environment... however this is mostly the reason as to why I can't buy it when people say "Ki scales with durability... they're just as tough as they are strong! What are your thoughts on it though?

ki right… it’s an enhancement, it’s power, it’s a boost in strength… all great! However I’ve noticed a huge gap between what power level shows up and what kinds of attacks are being used… more specifically I’ve noticed that big attacks actually raise the power level of characters significantly as they fire. So that got me thinking… is ki just a higher form of adrenaline?

Hear me out on this… let’s say character X has the resting power level of 1000, by charging up he can deliver a 1500 PL attack on command. Through training he can raise his resting PL to greater heights, but it’s not unlimited, after awhile his resting PL will end somewhere. Meaning after that it’s all a matter of stamina… being able to hold your charge for longer, or charge more than you could before!

There are multipliers that burn through energy faster for more power… would that be cruise control in this diagram?

What if Goku still had a resting PL of 2, but he’s always trying to charge himself as some form of training? (The extreme end of this idea but I think you get the point)

Basically… my point is: what if power wasn’t a matter of getting stronger, but increasing your stamina? Finding ways to more efficiently use the ki you have, so that you can hit higher heights when you really start trying.