u/undrwrld_achvr

This sub is described as:

>A subreddit for ARMY, non-fans, and civil critics to productively discuss all things related to BTS.

Rules include:

>No unhinged shooter or anti behavior
There are already existing fan subs and snark subs for BTS. If you want to glaze or hate, go to those subs.

But with all that being said, rather than write a text-wall to convince you to see things how I see it,

What is the purpose of a neutral subreddit of a fandom, to you? What differentiates a neutral sub from a general fan-sub? What belongs in a general fan-sub that doesn't belong in a neutral sub? And the opposite, what belongs in a neutral-sub that doesn't belong in a general fan-sub? Similarly, what differentiates a neutral-sub from an anti-sub?

For me I'm glad subs like these exist because I want a space to be critical about BTS without there being room for outright free-for-all toxicity towards BTS. But for some, it seems like they believe the second one is critical, they belong with the outright antis. Tried that, warped my mind, outright hated that experience in the end. Do not recommend.

I've seen people allege that this sub is becoming an anti-sub all because ARMYs are disappointed re CB and IMO having waded in those waters that is absolutely not the case. People here haven't been nearly as poisonous about it at all.

Similarly I've seen a comment allege that it is impossible to be neutral about BTS, and the second even a modicum of disappointment/criticism towards BTS exists in your heart and you express it, that makes room for antis to use and piggyback off your points. I don't necessarily think that has to be the case. I also don't think we have to care what antis do with our critical points after screencapping them. I think we can work to keep this place productively neutral without glaze or hate.

I want to hear from you, why you do, or don't agree.

[title]

…and I'm just getting the vibe that you want ARMYs that are troubled, wrestling-with-it, readjusting the nature of their fandom/consumption, to shut up and pack it up so you can consume in peace and have this sub be another one on the list of glaze-fest BTS subs.

I came in during Love Yourself a complete hyper-stan.

I found out about the n-word/kkamdoongie/swastika/holocaust-museum stuff and the more super-charged nature of my fandom took little hits of damage. But instead of my fandom behavior dying immediately on impact, it was just like -5HP, -5HP, -5HP, each time. There was still energy left in the health bar.

Then there were totally good and awesome things BTS did like Love Myself with UNICEF, donating to BLM, etc. Those added points back to my "fandom health bar", so to speak.

Stuff like the Jim Jones sample, Coke and McDs during the boycotts BDS called for, etc. took health points back off again.

You get the idea.

I've taken a lot of damage to my "fan bar" over the course of being an ARMY. I've even tried the "just quit" but for me, my way of doing that wasn't healthy either, cause I still wanted to check up on them, but in an objectively worse way.

Now I figure I want to stay a casual, critical listener, with maybe "blips" of the original peaks of my fandom, like going out to events like the cinema concert showings and stuff. Listening to the music. The occasional purchase, if something strikes my fancy. Arirang as a project hasn't been my favorite, but I'm curious to see what BTS brings to the table next, with regard to music and stage performances.

And then the Chris Brown thing happens. Aaaand I'm quite disappointed, upset, etc. But, like, nah, you can't tell me to sell my BTS belongings and leave. My albums, photocards, official merch and fanmerch all crystalize moments in my life when BTS made me happy and kept me going. Despite the disappointment I have right now, there may be moments in the future where BTS' output and actions make me happy and give me the strength to continue with my real life in the future.

What y'all can't make me, or anyone do, is be silent when we have critique on our chests that we want to express in a public, free-speech (within the rules) forum. Downvote and walk on. Similarly, you can't tell me or others like me to sell our tickets or belongings in order to give spaces like these the vibes that you want. You have to share with everyone else, go to a glaze sub, or wait for things to cool down.

But for now, as someone disappointed, I want to hear what other disappointed people have to say. It might be repetitive and annoying to you, but you have options on how to deal (or not deal) with that. Try as you might to control people by giving them the "advice" to sell their stuff and move on, but that's their choice to, or not to, make.

We're a group of internet friends that have known each other for over half a decade. Before I came out we all used to be some flavor of woman, non-binary, or agender… And we kinda had a shared trauma of the only other guy (prior to me coming out) in the group being a sex-pest. We've axed him out of the group since we all started confiding in each other about his behavior. But that was years ago.

And, I dunno, yada yada yada there was a pile of signs about me, growing up, but I avoided them, due to fear, and doubt that I could be what I felt. I spent the longest time of my queer journey IDing as a cis/agender/non-binary lesbian/sapphic, because I felt like the way I liked women, wasn't a masculine/patriarchal way. And that that attraction was coming from a place of sameness because of the body I was in, and my feminine socialization. Add onto that not being manly, liking cute things, thinking women are cool, and my own traumas regarding what masculinity is or means, made worse by that sex-pest guy.

But after finishing some Formative Queer Media about the dangers of repression and denying yourself (iykyk >!🎪🐰!<) I didn't want to forsake those signs (some of them are really glaring, but I want to keep them to myself for anonymity) or the inner Guy™ I know I'm dealing with (even if he does end up sharing headspace with an inner Agender™).

I just don't know what to do. I feel like my friends are scared/resistant towards me, or can't trust me, or don't want me around because it's hard to see me as a guy, or because I'm becoming the Bad Gender™ or something. I don't know what to do.

In which an ARMY dissects the nature of anti/snark culture, how it operates, how it perpetuates itself, how it's able to mask as pure authenticity/criticism for those not aware enough to clock it for what it is, etc.

As someone who's had much too long of a view of it all from the inside, she's pinned it down with 100% accuracy. Not that I think this info should force you to feel any compassion towards snarkers or anything, but at the very least, it should further enable you to not hold snark they post with much weight.

Beyond providing context: it's beyond the point, so I'll make it brief: I was username-checked (previous BTS Snark activity) by a non-mod user for posting a balance/neutral-opinion here (which mods later clarified I'm within my right to do as long as I adhere to this sub's rules.

I think a healthy future for neutral subreddits is going to involve a lot of making space for rule-abiding users with former or even concurrent snark sub activity for a couple reasons.

1. I think the first and biggest reason is for a long time, BTSnark, for a lot of people, felt like the only place one could go to post less-than-glazing opinions of BTS. You may disagree with me on how true/false that statement is, and that's ok. In subs that aren't like this one or r/BTSNeutral , where rules aren't in place to prevent people from glazing or snarking, it's easy to get kinda elbowed and pressured by other ARMY into shedding any critical opinions and having them replaced by positive ones. Again, after Snark kinda exploded with the Arirang drop, mods of Neutral subs returned to take care of them. That's going to give people with BTS criticisms more options on how they'll want to express them, and within which internet-community cultures. So be prepared for people who have made prior decisions to change their minds.
2. You're gonna see a lot of people walk-back or mellow-out-on anti/turbo-critical behavior. Whether or not you think people can or should be allowed to change is irrelevant, you're going to see people change. Again, if people feel like (or have felt like) snark subs are (or were) the only places they can have less than stellar opinions, and they dwell in there, they're gonna assimilate into the general culture of those spaces. That said, I know for a fact I wasn't the only one in snark subs that harbored the feeling of "y'all are doing too much, sometimes". Also, there are gonna be times where a critical ARMY, non-ARMY, or ex-ARMY will want to say something that may be considered too positive or too glaze for Snark. They will want to come here, to talk about it. They will likely be cognizant and respectful of the rules. You'll have to tolerate them if so, and either be nice or let them be.
3. I think people walking-back and mellowing-out from the snarkier side of things is a positive and should be welcomed. I don't think that people with snark activity ought to be one-sin-condemned, banished forevermore, etc.. IMO, neutral subs aren't a privilege that only exists for people moving in a stan → neutral direction. They should exist for people that may be moving in an anti/critical → neutral direction, and people that may fluctuate between 2 or all 3 of those positions as well. If fellow non-mod users treat neutral subs as only existing for stans to have polite-balanced and polite-critical discussion and not the other way round, such a population leads to Neutral subs just being Glaze-Lite subs, which isn't the atmosphere these communities are trying to foster.

Even now, and even with my post history, I have positive BTS opinions that'd be considered too glaze for snark, which I'll want to post here. Similarly, if I have something to say that's too critical, too knee-jerk, or too harsh for here, I'd post it elsewhere. You'd be surprised at people's ability to read the room and follow the rules if you give them a chance.

"Nope. You're banished. You're condemned. You're irredeemable," is stan behavior, which, one of the main points of neutral subs is to give people a break from.

At least that's how I see it. But I'm willing to hear your genuine thoughts.

(Edit: Keeping my post exactly the way I initially drafted it, because I don't want to paint it into something it never was, but I've enjoyed discussing with y'all. There's a bit of a further transformation that happens within the replies of this post that you're not obligated to read. But, I'm kinda committed to just leaving Snark be and dwelling here regardless of how people may feel about it. Any feelings of distrust are consequences I can stomach. But yeah! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Saw Arirang in Busan cinema livestream and… it was aight but I think the cinema group I was within was carrying the energy. That kind of human psychology thing where other people being excitable makes you excitable.

If I was sat in an empty room by myself I feel like I woulda just been visibly vibing or just chilling for most of the Arirang tracks and would have lit up and got excited at the MOTS-and-previous era tracks.

Arirang tracks haven't really grown on me as wholes. I just have my specific bits of certain tracks that I sort of sit through the song for. With the exception of Come Over, that one I just enjoy through and through. I can't help but notice I mainly went nuts and cheered and sang along to the older tracks we got.

That said, for me, Arirang tracks performed live are better than studio Arirang tracks listened to. There are extra layers of experience added live. Stage presence and such, as well as, the ARMYs enjoying themselves around you.

I also find that it's more pleasant interacting with other ARMY IRL. Lots of people were giving out freebies and waving their lightsticks as if it was a real concert, which is nice. I was meant to go to a MOTS era concert, but, COVID. I went to a LY era cinema showing prior, but though the room was packed, I think the marketing of it as a concert film instead of a concert event made everyone as quiet as a mouse.

So yeah, mixed feelings and whatnot. I still like the guys. In a kayfabe way and as flawed humans (just as anyone else, I guess). But being an ARMY that's lukewarm on Arirang is a weird place to be. I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about Arirang like that on online ARMY spaces. That's why I'm glad to have ARMY and passive BTS listeners in real life that feel the same way and that I can talk about those feelings with.

I have to sit through the rest of the Arirang era and enjoy it when I can and when I feel like it, but I want to see what BTS' next project will be. I'm treating this as them getting reaccustomed to everything and therefore it being an awkward step. But I still had a nice time today.

Besides the fact that a lot of the guys' family and teachers and the like where around, and that it's BTS anniversary/Festa, I feel like extra care and attention to performance/presentation was taken for this concert. I'm not immune to the clips of past nights this tour where things were seeming kinda 🤨 but maybe BTS is getting back in the swing of things rn. Time will hopefully tell!